24000 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi Icaro, Thanks for your friendly and patient part in this wonderful exchange. We (on the list) have occasionally talked about humor in the Dhamma (mostly absent from the Pariyatti, I think). This morning (with your message) it struck me that humor, though most likely akusala in itself, can either condition detachment or result from detachment--so not all bad, eh? Keep up the good work! mike p.s. You're really whetting my appetite for dry bones--I'll have to give Dhammasangani a try (looking forward to the new Harry too). ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. > Au contraire, ma chèrie ami! > > i am not fawning and slobbering about the > Dhammasangani... I am chortling with glee!!! > This first book of Abhidhamma, in my humble opinion, > is the best exposition of Dhamma I´ve ever read. At > the Mahayana branch, the Hrdaya Sutra and the Suddhama > Pundarika Sutta ( Lotus Sutra) can make a stand also > on bearing the true Dhamma flag... but the > Dhammasangani is really a landmark!!! > Harry Potter could not handle a candle of it, > anyway... 24001 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi Icaro, I must agree with Mike, you are very funny, which is refreshing; it almost makes me want to reconsider my position, but not quite. Most men who speak French to me could have just about anything they want, but not this time…;-). Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Icaro, > > Thanks for your friendly and patient part in this wonderful exchange. We > (on the list) have occasionally talked about humor in the Dhamma (mostly > absent from the Pariyatti, I think). This morning (with your message) it > struck me that humor, though most likely akusala in itself, can either > condition detachment or result from detachment--so not all bad, eh? > > Keep up the good work! > > mike > > p.s. You're really whetting my appetite for dry bones--I'll have to give > Dhammasangani a try (looking forward to the new Harry too). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: icaro franca > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. > > > Au contraire, ma chèrie ami! > > > > i am not fawning and slobbering about the > > Dhammasangani... I am chortling with glee!!! > > This first book of Abhidhamma, in my humble opinion, > > is the best exposition of Dhamma I´ve ever read. At > > the Mahayana branch, the Hrdaya Sutra and the Suddhama > > Pundarika Sutta ( Lotus Sutra) can make a stand also > > on bearing the true Dhamma flag... but the > > Dhammasangani is really a landmark!!! > > Harry Potter could not handle a candle of it, > > anyway... 24002 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi Mike: Mike: "Thanks for your friendly and patient part in this > wonderful exchange." ------------------------------------------------- Pas du tout, Mike! ------------------------------------------------- Mike: "We > (on the list) have occasionally talked about humor > in the Dhamma (mostly > absent from the Pariyatti, I think)." ------------------------------------------- Despite all the solemnity of the usual Pariyatti, I can remember Burmese and Cingalese statues of Buddha and Boddhisattas smiling on freely - Pativedda! I haven´t got any intention to preach Dhamma - it´s a serious duty, that don´t give room for much humour anyway... my feelings and thoughts here are of a light sort, you see. -------------------------------------------------- Mike: " This morning > (with your message) it > struck me that humor, though most likely akusala in > itself, can either > condition detachment or result from detachment--so > not all bad, eh?" -------------------------------------------------- Curiosly, that´s the way it is. Akusala Dhammas are Dhammas by definition, but Akusala Cittani has got a strong conotation of "immoral". So, it´s a task for an applicant like me, keep ordered my train of thoughts on a line of "One consciousness, prompted (or unprompted), accompanied with pleasure, and disconnected with wrong view." (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatavippayutam, asankharikam'(sankharikam´) ekam). And, at the last line,detachment! -------------------------------------------------- Mike: "Keep up the good work! > > mike > > p.s. You're really whetting my appetite for dry > bones--I'll have to give > Dhammasangani a try (looking forward to the new > Harry too)." -------------------------------------------------- Presently, I am trying to follow the Visuddhimagga´s quotes and comys, but...gosh! It´s a hard work indeed! Buddhaghosa´s Pali is very, very strong!!!! The Dhammasangani is much more simpler ! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24003 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi James, James:"I must agree with Mike, you are very funny, which is > refreshing; it > almost makes me want to reconsider my position, but > not quite. Most > men who speak French to me could have just about > anything they want, > but not this time…;-)." ----------------------------------------------------- Relax, James! We are here to exchange views and opinions. Preaching Dhamma is a serious and hard work that keeps humour out of order. This´ not my intention, or Mike´s, or Sarah´s or Van Gorkon´s. And I can guarantee you that just here I find a real food for my pretended unique soul...and a lot of things to apply my brain (at the present moment, I find the Visuddhimagga very hard to munch)!!!! Are you travelling to Egypt ? If so, bon voyage! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24004 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:37am Subject: Re: To Icaro & James with metta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Icaro (& James), Hi Sarah, Well, if I had to pick out one sutta that is my favorite I would have to say The Fire Sermon. I like it because of its colorful language (which I also use, as you have noticed ;-) and its sense of urgency and preaching quality (which I also use). I also find that it covers all of the important bases. I find all of the suttas inspiring, actually; but sometimes it is a negative inspiration…a realization of how far I have to go and where I am not...negative reinforcement to try harder. Sure, I may post some things about my experiences in Egypt but I think they might be very out of place in this group. This is a dhamma study group of a very high and esoteric level, tales of common, everyday dhamma experiences will be very odd…but I guess that has never stopped me before! ;-). Metta, James 24005 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Hi James, > James:"I must agree with Mike, you are very funny, > which is > > refreshing; it > > almost makes me want to reconsider my position, but > > not quite. Most > > men who speak French to me could have just about > > anything they want, > > but not this time…;-)." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Relax, James! > We are here to exchange views and opinions. > Preaching Dhamma is a serious and hard work that keeps > humour out of order. This´ not my intention, or > Mike´s, or Sarah´s or Van Gorkon´s. Hi Icaro, No, they are all bent on destroying me!!! Hehehe… Icaro, I am perfectly relaxed. You have to be careful with my posts, sometimes what you see is not what you see. Maybe you should read some of my past posts, it is pretty safe to say that I am as much a character as you are. Though I see you as more the raucous, dhamma pirate while I am more the cantankerous, wandering ascetic…;-). Thank you for the well wishes for my travels. Metta, James 24006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Dear Mike, op 05-08-2003 14:23 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >> Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and >> condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is >> another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition >> (pakatupanissaya paccaya) > > Is this condition synonymous with 'anusaya*'? Is this the sense in which > Khun Sujin uses 'accumulations'? Sorry if we've been over this before. N: Some defilements are alssified as latent tendencies, anusaya: sensuous greed, anger, wrong view, doubt, conceit, clinging to existence, ignorance. They lie dormant in each citta, and are accumulated and carried on from moment to moment. They can condition the arising of akusala citta. We can also use the word accumulation in a wider sense; all good and bad inclinations, all experiences, preferences for certain objects, talents, skills, are accumulated from moment to moment and thus are conditions for the cittas at the present time. For example, the reading of a phrase of the Abhidhamma conditions happiness for some people, whereas other people may yell :-) It just triggers off such different reactions, and it is really beyond control. All skills like drawing and painting you have learnt before are accumulated, and now you can draw and paint today. Also sanna plays its part in remembering what we have learnt before. All such facts we can verify in our own life. That is Abhidhamma. Kamma is accumulated and produces result later on, this is kamma-condition. I should add, it also falls under natural strong dependence condition. There should be the right time for kamma to produce its result. Learning about conditions and accumulations helps us to see that dhammas are without a being, without a living soul. Nina. 24007 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Dear Nina: Nina: "Kamma is accumulated and produces result later on, > this is kamma-condition. > I should add, it also falls under natural strong > dependence condition. There > should be the right time for kamma to produce its > result. > Learning about conditions and accumulations helps us > to see that dhammas are > without a being, without a living soul." ------------------------------------------------------ So Kamma is only a attribute or mode of expression of the main Accumulation - that have a wider scope of definition as a concept. I could usually take the two terms as convertible one each other...but your words and arguments are sound, Nina. Thank you very much to share them with us !! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24008 From: Aalap Mahadevia Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 6:31am Subject: Wisdom Publications Dear Members of the Dhamma Study Group, Hello! My name is Aalap Mahadevia, and I'm a student at Harvard College in the States. Betty Yugala suggested that I send an email out over this list about a book project I am working on which may be of interest to some of the Group's members. I am under contract from Wisdom Publications to edit a book of life stories from Western-born, expatriate Buddhist monastics and practicioners in Asia. We are seeking tales from expats with all types of backgrounds (age, monastic or practicioner, gender, time in Asia, time since ordination, etc.). This will be an entirely non-profit project with the goal of helping to spread the dhamma in the West. As you are probably well aware, there are many serious Western Buddhists who are actively considering whether they need to come to Asia to further develop their practice or if they can find what they are seeking in the West. This is an obviously charged issue which operates on many levels, and we feel that a book of real-life tales from expat Buddhists could indirectly and naturally offer a fresh perspective on this oft-debated topic. After all, who better to tell a Westerner about how Buddhism is experienced in Asia than a fellow Westerner who has "been there and done that?" Furthermore, as I have learned first-hand through my travels in Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Thailand this summer collecting tales, many of you simply have fascinating stories that deserve to be shared! If you have any questions or are interested in learning more about this project and potentially contributing your story to the book, please send me an email at Aalap_Mahadevia@H... or at mahadev@p.... Many thanks for your time - I look foward to hearing from you soon! I am Sincerely Yours, Aalap A. Mahadevia 24009 From: Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 7:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, I guess we will find out soon enough what is insight knowledge. Could you say a little more on what is profitable consciousness (kusala citta)? Perhaps summarize the "Sila" section of the Visuddhimagga in a sentence or two? Larry Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 24010 From: Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Sarah: "So if the aim is just to concentrate and concentrate and be less distracted, it may be better for memorizing the text, but it won't lead to more insight. Only the development of sati and panna will do that, regardless of whether one is a jack-in-a-box or a student that sits still and listens intently." Hi Sarah, So I take it you don't think concentration plays a particularly important role in understanding. Is that correct? If so, I think I would have to disagree, but can't see clearly exactly what concentration does. This is no doubt due to my own poor concentration. I notice in the simile at Vism. XIV 4 the money changer experiences the coins with all 5 physical senses (except hearing). Maybe this is an example of one-pointedness in the sense of one object for several consciousness processes. Another example would be considering impermanence over and over again from different perspectives. Some people eventually "get it" but most never do. Maybe we could improve the prompt. You also wrote that you thought ADS related to desire and interest. Could you expand on this a little? I could see how poor concentration could be due to lack of focused (concentrated) desire or due to desire to experience something other than what is happening. Do you think desire could be used to prompt sammasamadhi as a foundation for insight? Larry 24011 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 2:39am Subject: For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina & Jaran, Sorry for the delay. I’m adding some tapescript below which I hope may be helpful. Any mistakes are mine of course;-). I’ve added brackets for some translations and extra words to clarify as I understand. I think most people will find this discussion very abstruse and may wish to skip it. ***** Jaran wrote: “Now question (from Jaran): In the case of paccayaparigaha~na~na, pa~n~na understands the conditions of dhamma, what about the sammasana-~nana, what is the things to be understood by pa~na~na? Anyone, please?” ****** Sarah: This was similar to a post of Nina’s (to Jon) which I read out to K.Sujin in Bangkok, relating to the understanding of groups and khandhas. Note: Just to summarise briefly, the first three stages of insight are: 1. naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na Panna clearly understands the distinction between nama and rupa 2. paccaya-pariggaha-~naana As Jaran writes above, panna clearly understands the conditioned nature of dhammas. The anatta nature of dhammas is seen more clearly 3. sammasana ~naa.na Panna understands ‘groups’ by understanding the succession of namas and rupas arising and falling away.“Sammasana is derived from sammasati, to grasp, to know thoroughly.” ('Survey', by A.Sujin) ***** Sarah reads out Nina’s question about sammasana ~naa.na and understanding of groups. ....... Sujin: When there is the touching of hardness, panna knows (the reality). There is no need to think of groups...... It seems like we are only talking about one object and one doorway and one series of javana (cittas). Actually there are many series of javanas. That’s why groups can appear. ..... Sarah: Because there are many processes and many javanas, so one appears at a time.... ..... Sujin We shouldn’t say one at a time, because it’s so fast. That’s it. We cannot count, we cannot know by ourselves how many there are of each. Just when it appears, the kalapa (group) appears. ..... Sarah So, like at the first stage, the way nama and rupa can be distinguished is because the processes are so quick..... ..... Sujin We don’t need to think of ‘process’ at all, because the manodvara (mind-door) appears. Now the manodvara does not appear. So this is the difference between satipatthana and vipassana nana. Because even if there is a moment of being aware, the reality does not appear as it is. If it appears as it is, the manodvara will appear. So all the vipassana nanas appear through the mind-door process. We do not count at all. (There is) no word, no thinking about process or name, but reality appears through the mind-door - rupa and nama. But, panna at that level (1st stage) is not keen enough to understand more, because it’s just the first experience of manodvara and nama and rupa. So that is the first vipassana nana, which is not enough, because there is also thinking ....(which) thinks, "not I anymore", but the thinking and ideas are conditioned. When panna develops more, the satipatthana arises and is aware of more objects - not just only when it’s vipassana nana - to develop and support the growth of panna. So the more panna can develop and see the different realities, (the more) it sees the paccaya (conditions), things cannot be different (from how they are). But it’s not just the word. For example, right now, there is seeing. It sees the visible object. There is no need to say "the visible object is the paccaya for seeing consciousness" because you see that when the Buddha became enlightened, (there was) no word at all, but his panna was so great that he could explain and tell the details of everything with his panna. So that is the second one (stage). The third one experiences different kalapas. That’s all. No need to talk about when, how many and through what..... ...... Sarah: So there’s still only one reality being experienced. Because of the nature of different javanas.... ...... Sujin: Yes, but still no arising and falling away like in higher nana. It must be through the mind-door. ...... Sarah I say OK, but it’s never OK.... ...... Sujin Because you see, people usually think more than experience, so it brings more doubt because it cannot be known by thinking. ******* Sarah: Another extract. Note : The first 3 stages of insight are referred to as ‘tender insight’ or taru.na vipassanaa. Panna is referred to as ‘cintaa ~naa.na’ or thinking insight. The higher levels are ‘balava vipassanaa’ or ‘insight as power’. Sarah asks about cinta nana. ..... Sujin: At higher levels, there is still thinking in between (other realities), but panna knows thinking and there is less and less clinging to the idea of self. With full understanding, there is no ‘falling down’, less doubt, less idea of self. <....> Sarah How can space be known as it is asabhava (without it’s own nature)? ..... Sujin: There can be understanding of space between groups of rupas, space between kalapas. it can be proved when panna is developed and can experience many groups of rupas, not just one at sammasananana (3rd stage). One group is smaller than dust. Panna develops more and more, seeing closer and closer. Hardness is just one characteristic. Usually one reads further than one knows. There is no question about how many (are experienced) because at the moment of vipassana nana, there is no counting - just seeing closer and closer. The best thing is to develop what one can know, so that one knows what can be proven first. Then there is no question about how many. At vipassana nana, there’s no counting or thinking. Still (at the 3rd stage), only one reality like hardness - smaller than dust. That hardness has now gone. There is the arising and falling away. Khandha refers to anything which arises and falls away so fast. Whenever it (the khandha) arises, it is conditioned to be different from past and future ones. It is never the same. This is the meaning of khandha. The one that is coarse or fine, good or bad, in the past, future or now. (At this stage), there is no doubt about what and why is khandha - it is anything which arises and falls away. The Mahabhuta rupas (4 primary rupas) arise together and with other rupas, (just as) cittas arise with cetasikas. Khandha, dhatu and ayatana are the bhumi (?sphere?) of satipatthana, but there must be understanding of realities first. In order to understand khandha, first there must be the understanding that visible object is the rupa experienced through the eyes, in order to understand groups (later). There has to be the understanding of many javanas and vithi cittas (process cittas) - (an) uncountable (number). *********** I hope this helps. Comments welcome. Metta, Sarah ======= 24012 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Mike, I had also meant to include this extract from these notes of Nina's from the Foundation series. Note the references to phala samapatti (fruition attainment), jhana samapatti (jhana attainment), cetovimutti (deliverence of mind), and vimutti sukha (bliss of liberation). I think for these terms we need to see the Pali and then, often, to read them in context. Metta, Sarah ===== Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2 2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot)states: ?All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment. This is a conclusion which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once-returner) are not able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non-returner) and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi (concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan) may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna. The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his enlightenment.(6 We read in the ?Middle Length Sayings (I, 44), ?The Lesser Discourse of the Miscellany (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke with the layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment. Footnotes: 5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the skill in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna. 6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ?But in the present case it is the Lord?s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its object that is implied, for which reason ?Experiencing the bliss of liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing the bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment... The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. 7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha to the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person with jhåna attainment. 24013 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Icaro & James with metta Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Well, if I had to pick out one sutta that is my favorite I would have > to say The Fire Sermon. I like it because of its colorful language > (which I also use, as you have noticed ;-) and its sense of urgency > and preaching quality (which I also use). I also find that it covers > all of the important bases. .... Great choice;-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-028.html Bodhi transl: “.......Burning with what? burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion.......” I agree with all your reasons too - the urgency, the colourful language and covering all the ‘bases’ too....I also agree that if we could really appreciate and thoroughly comprehend just this one sutta, that there’d be no need to read all the elaborations in the Dhammasangani and elsewhere. They are just maps and signposts to help those of us who are ‘slow-witted’ to understand the ‘all that is burning’ and the kilesa which is the fuel. ...... >I find all of the suttas inspiring, > actually; but sometimes it is a negative inspiration…a realization of > how far I have to go and where I am not...negative reinforcement to > try harder. ..... Yes, just now, reflecting on the ‘Fire Sermon’, was a reminder of just how forgetful of the present burning we (or rather ignorance) is. ..... > Sure, I may post some things about my experiences in Egypt but I > think they might be very out of place in this group. This is a > dhamma study group of a very high and esoteric level, .... Not at all - we mostly need reminders and help in different and varied forms. I like the spice of variety and some colourful and burning sermons too and I’m sure everyone else does as well. I’d be glad to hear about others you find particularly helpful with reasons. Anyone else too. ..... > tales of > common, everyday dhamma experiences will be very odd…but I guess that > has never stopped me before! ;-). .... I think it would be great. Maybe you could write a weekly or daily series on these ‘everyday dhamma experiences’ with a relevant part of a sutta as well. ‘Reminders from the Fire Sermon whilst walking amongst the Pyramids or communicating with my Egyptian students’ kind-of-thing. You could do it very well and it would be a refreshing break for everyone from all the esoteric detail;-). Metta, Sarah ====== 24014 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 5:28am Subject: Teaching the Dhamma for material reward Hi John, Welcome to DSG --- john196920022001 wrote: > > > > I wanted to share the following Theravada Sutta that I came accross > some time ago. It's in the Anguttara Nikaya V.159 of the Pali Canon. > It's called the Udayi Sutta. This sutta discusses the qualities of a > teacher of the dhamma. .... This is an interesting sutta and you raise a question I’ve often wondered about as well: .... > "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step- > by-step.' > > "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak > explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' > > "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out > of compassion.' > > "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not > for the purpose of material reward.' > > "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak > without disparaging myself or others.' > > "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma > should be taught to others only when these five qualities are > established within the person teaching."> ..... All the points are worth discussing, but you are particularly discussing point no 4. In the PTS transl., the note to ‘not as a means for gain’, says the Pali is ‘dubbinodaya and duppa.tivinodaya’ for what it’s worth. ...... > One thing that this sutta has taught me is, why do I teach the > dhamma? It it for material reward? Money? There are Buddhist > organizations that charge a fee for dhamma teachings. The dhamma is > free. There are always extenuating circumstances. I am one who used > to charge other for meditation teaching. > This sutta has helped me distinguish those who make profit from > teaching dhamma and meditation, and those who are dhamma teachers. > Believe me I know. I used to make a business of teaching dhamma. I > just wanted to share this with everyone. ..... Your comments are interesting too and I admire your courage in facing up to this issue and questioning your lifestyle. I don’t know the answer and I understand what you are saying. My first question is whether this condition applies to lay people. Assuming it does, does it mean any centre offering Buddhist teachings cannot charge a fee? Should the fee only cover board and lodging costs? I’m not sure that I’d agree with this. I think as your comments suggest, we all have to consider our intentions (usually a mixed bag) when even sharing the Dhamma. Even without accepting any monetary reward, there can be many other ways that Dhamma is taught ‘for the purpose of material reward’. For example,in the Comy to the Sammohavinodanii (PTS transl, Class, of Minor Bases)gives the example of a monk who refuses robes, almsfood, lodging and medicine because ‘he wants more’. He wears a coarse robe, makes use of coarse almsfood and so on, so that the lay people think he is one of few wishes and a true ascetic. Then they invite him more and more and encourages them to make greater merit of greater food and so on which he accepts out of supposed compassion. “Such grimacing, grimacery, scheming, schemedness, is called the example of scheming called refusal of requisites.” Many other examples are given here and elsewhere. I think my point is that I’m not so sure it is the material gifts or ‘appearance’ so much as our intentions at any instant of speech that counts. I’m interested to hear other views about this. John, hope we hear more from you. Where do you live and do you still teach Dhamma and meditation? Metta, Sarah ========= 24015 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Thanks, Nina, So could I paraphrase this as saying that, when Khun Sujin uses the word 'accumulations', she sometimes means: 'natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya)'; sometimes 'defilements...classified as latent tendencies, anusaya: sensuous greed, anger, wrong view, doubt, conceit, clinging to existence, ignorance'; sometimes 'sa~n~naa'; sometimes 'kamma-condition'; sometimes 'natural strong dependence condition'; and sometimes some combination of (or even all of) the above? Sorry to be redundant. On my original readings I took 'accumulations' to have one consistent meaning (aside from simply, 'something that has accumulated or has been accumulated'). Obviously I was mistaken(!) and this clarifies things. I was trying to pin down this meaning and I think your message has done so as well as possible--many thanks! mike 24016 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Sarah, Are 'groups' concepts? mike 24017 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Sarah, This seems to be my day to paraphrase--could I sum this up by saying that, 'sukha vihaara', pleasant abiding, means 'bliss associated with fruition-attainment' in reference to an arahanta; and something else in reference to a non-arahanta (rather than saying that 'sukha vihaara', pleasant abiding, only means 'bliss associated with fruition-attainment' for an arahanta)? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding > Hi Mike, > > I had also meant to include this extract from these notes of Nina's from > the Foundation series. Note the references to phala samapatti (fruition > attainment), jhana samapatti (jhana attainment), cetovimutti (deliverence > of mind), and vimutti sukha (bliss of liberation). > > I think for these terms we need to see the Pali and then, often, to read > them in context. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2 > > 2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing > Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who > cannot)states: ?All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment. This is a > conclusion which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. > They stated that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí > (once-returner) are not able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only > the anågåmí (non-returner) and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. > They argued that only the anågåmí and the arahat could reach > accomplishment in samådhi (concentration). However, even the ordinary > person (who is not an ariyan) may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that > he may enter mundane jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all > ariyans, namely, the sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat > can enter fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna. > > The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the > Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the > enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his > enlightenment.(6 > > We read in the ?Middle Length Sayings (I, 44), ?The Lesser Discourse > of the Miscellany (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke > with the > layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining > cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with > jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment. > > Footnotes: > 5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the > skill in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna. > 6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ?But in the present case > it is the Lord?s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its > object that is implied, for which reason ?Experiencing the bliss of > liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing > the bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with > fruition-attainment... > The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. > 7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha > to the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of > cessation of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person > with jhåna attainment. 24018 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: diary in Egypt Hi James, op 08-08-2003 18:37 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Sure, I may post some things about my experiences in Egypt but I > think they might be very out of place in this group. This is a > dhamma study group of a very high and esoteric level, tales of > common, everyday dhamma experiences will be very odd…but I guess that > has never stopped me before! ;-). N: You make me laugh. Tales of common, everyday dhamma experiences are just the thing we like. Egypt diary 1,2, etc. A nice break after having being entranced with the Pali texts. I am missing your letters to the starkids. Bon voyage, Nina. 24019 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Dear Mike, op 09-08-2003 17:20 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: There is much more to it. I am still at transl Dhamma Issues, and after that there is a second Bulletin which is entirely about anusayas. I am looking forward myself to learn more. It will take a while! Nina. 24020 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Sarah, Mike and Kom, First of all, many thanks, Sarah for the transcr of the tape, I printed it out, many things to think about. Hi Mike, just butting in. op 09-08-2003 17:38 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Hi Sarah, > > Are 'groups' concepts? >N:Khandha is a group and A.Sujin speaks about direct experience of groups, thus, realities. > I read: is no need to think of groups...... It seems like we are only talking > about one object and one doorway and one series of javana (cittas). > Actually there are many series of javanas. That’s why groups can appear.> end quote. Thus, they appear. As I see it: hardness appears, and we may think that it is just one rupa unit, but in reality it is in a group: of the great Elements and other four rupas, thus eight. And then each moment of experience: in fact there are many javanas. But, we better not think too much or count. We just know how coarse awareness is. Later more can be known, but we are not as far yet. Maybe the speculating about what will be known later on does not help us. What do you think? For now there is just this or that characteristic that appears, but a lot of thinking about it too. Another way she used to explain the third stage of tender insight: the arising and falling away is known but coarsely, not precisely, not the arising of one nama or rupa at a time. I could clarify this a little: When she says the mind-door, she means the mind-door process. Nama can be known through the mind-door, and the vipassana nanas arise in mind-door processes. When satipatthana is being developed, we do not know nama as it really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is directly known. Then it can be directly known that seeing as nama, an element that experiences. Any additions by Kom are most welcome!!! Kom may discuss this in Jack's Bay Area group. Nina. 24021 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Mike: Mike: "Are 'groups' concepts?" ------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in: Concepts does not arise in lobha consciousness or together with misbelief - as Ditthi, for example, that is connected with wrong view. Since "groups" (Samasanna)are perceived by Panna as a continuing flowing of nama and rupa, and since no consciousness exists apart from its concomitants, both consciousness and its respective co-adjuncts arise and perish simultaneously. However, if one gets kalayanajatika (the 25 "morals"), one gets also alobha with concepts free of misbelief, and Samasanna. Corrections are welcome! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24022 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina: Nina: "When she says the mind-door, she means the mind-door > process." ---------------------------------------------------- Namely, Bhavanga. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Nama can be > known through the mind-door, and the vipassana nanas > arise in mind-door > processes." ---------------------------------------------------- In the mind-door sixty-seven types of consciousness arise such as mind-door apprehending, fifty-five javanas, and retention. But there are nineteen types of consciousness such as relinking, bhavanga also, and decease that are without doors. Perhaps at this point Vipassana nana begins to "pass away", making appear the Satipatthana. I can be wrong at this level of reasoning - corrections are welcome! ------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "When satipatthana is being developed, we > do not know nama as it > really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is > directly > known." ---------------------------------------------------- That´s because we are already at the no-door level: investigation, accompanied by indifference, and the Great Resultants arise either throught the six doors or without a door. The sublime Resultants do arise without a door. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Then it can be directly known that seeing as > nama, an element that > experiences. > Any additions by Kom are most welcome!!! Kom may > discuss this in Jack's Bay > Area group." -------------------------------------------------- That´s my opinion. Corrections are welcome!!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24023 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 10:53pm Subject: Domanassa Dear Group, I wonder if anyone can explain a little about Domanassa, and perhaps point me to some readings? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24024 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Domanassa Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > I wonder if anyone can explain a little about Domanassa, and perhaps > point me to some readings? ..... Domanassa is unpleasant mental feeling arising with cittas (consciousness) rooted in dosa (aversion). As we read in the Noble Truths, craving is the cause of all suffering. “From the complete fading away and cessation of this craving becoming will end. Through the end of becoming, birth will end. Through the end of birth, old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, depression and despair will cease.[jaatinirodhaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhaDOMANASSupaayaasaa nirujjhanti]” (SN1V 86 Johansson transl) SN, Sa.laayatanasa.myutta, 105(2) Clinging (Bodhi transl): “.....When there is eye, bhikkhus, by clinging to the eye, pleasure and pain arise internally.....ear....mind <....> “What do you think, bhikkhus, is the eye prmanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, venerable sir.” “Is what i imprmanent suffering or happiness?” “Suffering, venerable sir.” “But without clinging to what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, could pleasure and pain arise internally?” “No, venerable sir.” <.....> “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye...the mind. Experencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion (his mind) is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: “It’s liberated’. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” ***** Chris, as I’m trying (not too successfully) to limit my typing, I’d like to repeat extracts from some earlier posts I wrote which gave a little more detail. Apologies for the repetition. In an earlier post I wrote: “Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. When I read the messages about the weather I was reminded of a quote from the Atthasalini which Nina uses in 'Cetasikas'. She's writing about how dosa (and therefore domanassa too) arises 'on account of any object experienced through one of the six doors.' she continues: 'One may even be cross with the rain, the sun or the wind. We read in the Atthasalini (11, Book 11, Part 11, summary, Ch 11, 367): ..."Or when vexation (springs up) groundlessly" means anger without reason; for example, someone gets angry saying "it rains too much", "it does not rain", "the sun shines too much", "it does not shine"; gets angry when the wind blows, when it does not blow, gets angry at being unable to sweep away the Bodhi leaves, at being unable to put on his robe; he gets angry with the wind, in slipping he gets angry with a tree-stump..." “ ***** Extract from earlier discussion with Frank: Sarah: The anagami and arahat still have unpleasant bodily feeling, but no dosa and domanassa. While there is no guarding of the sense doors, they’re bound to follow and so we can see where the root of the problems lie - not in the vipaka, but in the ‘response’. If there is awareness of dosa or unpleasant feeling now, I think it's apparent that it is not the same as the unpleasant (bodily) feeling when the cold water is experienced. Rob K gave the example of vomitting. There are the moments of unpleasant bodily experience, but then so many, many moments of aversion and unpleasant feeling about these short moments of vipaka. It can be tested out. ..... F: > 3) It seems like the abidhamma is trying to break > things down into a completely logical and atomic > moment by moment analysis, and it doesn't seem right > to me. In other words, I think you get yourself into > trouble by trying to find a unified theory that > explains reality through concepts, whereas the sutta > usages of things like kusala, akusala, are somewhat > fuzzier things that can't be broken down into > perfectly clean and dilineated atomic units. ..... S: Actually, in the suttas, such as in SN, there are many elaborations on the diversity of feelings and on the arahat’s experience of feelings. I think the Sutta usages only seem ‘fuzzier’ because they are not fully comprehended without an understanding of some Abhidhamma and commentary assistance. For example, just understanding a little about the distinction just discussed between bodily and mental feelings will make a difference when reading about feelings in the suttas. It doesn’t mean that there can be or should be a ‘logical and atomic moment by moment anlysis’ every time there is a feeling. This would be impossible and wrong view if one had this idea. It would be thinking and not understanding. ..... F:> It's hard to put into words what I mean, but what it > comes down to is it's more important that I decrease > the (unnecessary) mental unpleasant feeling that > follows unpleasant physical experiences (through lots > of daily meditation practice :) , and not worry too > much whether there is a perfect theory that explains > blow by blow what's happening each mind moment. ..... S: So the purpose is very important.If one’s purpose is to reduce mental unpleasant feeling, the path will not be the same as if one’s purpose is to develop understanding and detachment. Of course, by its nature, dosa and domanassa are unpleasant, but....what about pleasant mental feeling and lobha when the temperature is just right and the worldly conditions are just as we’d like them? Isn’t it the attachment and ignorance of to these that leads to the aversion when we receive the flip side? ****** Hope something here is helpful. Perhaps, Chris, you could kindly share some further reflections or references you’ve been considering or a little more detail about what prompted your good question. Perhaps others can add more too. Metta, Sarah ======= 24025 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry --- lbidd1 wrote: > Hi Jon and Icaro, ... > However, I think the tendency to carry an object > over to another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika. In 'Cetasikas' (p. 81), Nina cites a passage from Vism that seems to attribute this function to vitakka: <<< Vitakka which is developed in samatha “thinks” of the meditation subject and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína and middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, 88): “… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…” Thus, in samatha vitakka “touches” the meditation subject again and again until calm has developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained. >>> ... > The concentration that is the proximate cause of panna is also > called > tranquility in the expression "tranquility and insight". I can't > really put my finger on the reason for this. Maybe it's the > presence of the Beautiful cetasikas. Could it be that 'tranquility' necessarily implies kusala, whereas concentration doesn’t? Just a thought. By the way, it may be that 'tranquility' here refers to mundane samatha/jhana and not the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight. Context would be important (do you have a particular passage/reference in mind?). Jon 24026 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Domanassa Hello Sarah, and All, Most of life for me, whether I like it or not, revolves around feelings. When reflecting on anatta, many people have most difficulty unhitching from the idea that consciousness or mind is not "them" - I have most difficulty with unhitching from emotions, feelings. I noticed elsewhere that even those who have been Buddhists for decades, still write unpleasant things when their "buttons are pushed." I see the commonness of this emotional reaction that overwhelms us when we feel threatened or offended as a bit like being caught by a dumper when bodysurfing - one moment you're standing in waist deep water mindlessly chatting to those around, and the next you're knocked by 2 metres of powerfully, raging white water, swirling head over heels in a dumper with no way to breath, surface, or have control of what's happening. And then, it has gone, subsided. While the wave of emotion is present it is not resistable, and a lot of damage can be done while it holds sway. I've never clearly understood the place of these overwhelming emotions in the Teachings. I've been most familiar with the three factor description of vedana, which didn't seem to 'fit' my experience ... pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. I had been reading Contemplation of Feeling by Nyanaponika Thera. The very first sentence is: "It should be first made clear that, in Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying intensity, as well as other thought processes." Thank you for explaining the five types of feeling. I empathise with Frank in his attempts to do something to reduce the impact of feelings. I also wonder where Dukkha fits in here - unpleasant feeling is suffering don't you think? Most discussions in Buddhism centre on bodily feeling. One could get a sense that emotions aren't considered very important. I feel they mostly rule the world. And wonder what can be done to lessen their power? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 24027 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Trying to understand my last meditation "Vimala"/Robert Thanks for this quote from Ven. Gunaratana (is it from a published work?). I would agree that there is no aspect of 'trance' in vipassana bhavana, and I actually find the term 'meditation' a less-than-helpful translation of 'bhavana' for a number of reasons, but that's another story ;-)). I don't think Nori sees his experience as a trance of any kind, but I think your point is the 'clarity and precision' mentioned in the passage, which suggests an absence of doubt, although I don't think it necessarily precludes doubt arising afterwards. I had a quick look at your website. It is nicely laid out and easy to get around, with some useful resources. Thanks also for mentioning this list there. Jon --- vimala wrote: > norakat147 writes: > Bhante Gunaratana writes the following about some of the many ideas > we have about what meditation is - and what it isn't. > > "Misconception #2 > Meditation means going into a trance > > Here again the statement could be applied accurately to certain > systems of > meditation, but not to Vipassana. Insight meditation is not a form > of > hypnosis. You are not trying to black out your mind so as to become > unconscious. You are not trying to turn yourself into an > emotionless > vegetable. If anything, the reverse is true. You will become more > and more > attuned to your own emotional changes. You will learn to know > yourself with > ever- greater clarity and precision. In learning this technique, > certain > states do occur which may appear trance-like to the observer. But > they are > really quite the opposite. In hypnotic trance, the subject is > susceptible to > control by another party, whereas in deep concentration the > meditator > remains very much under his own control. The similarity is > superficial, and > in any case the occurrence of these phenomena is not the point of > Vipassana. > As we have said, the deep concentration of Jhana is a tool or > stepping stone > on the route of heightened awareness. Vipassana by definition is > the > cultivation of mindfulness or awareness. If you find that you are > becoming > unconscious in meditation, then you aren't meditating, according to > the > definition of the word as used in the Vipassana system. It is that > simple. " > > w/ Metta, > "Vimala" Robert > njmc@s... > http://satipatthana.org 24028 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Trying to understand my last meditation & Dhamma Molly Welcome to the list. I am very pleased to hear of your interest in the ancient Theravadin texts including the suttas, the Abhidhamma and the Visuddhi-Magga. I hope you find the discussion here interesting, and that you'll join in. I am also pleased to hear about all the positive experiences you have had as a follower of SN Goenka's style of practice. I hope you don't mind me asking a question. In the Buddha's time there were not as far as we know meditation retreats, nor the particular style of practice taught by Mr Goenka. Have you ever wondered why these aspects are not mentioned in the teachings themselves? Jon --- mollyo wrote: > Hi everyone. > My name is Molly. > I practice Vipassana meitation as tought by S.N. Goenka > I live in the United States, in Hawaii since 1992 and in upstate > N.Y. before that. > All that I have experienced through my interest in the Dhamma has > had a profound effect on my life. > Sitting the Vipassana course in this tradition opened me up to > knowing what > the Buddha tought by experiencing it directly first. Only then, > after a few > years, did I take up the study of the ancient Theravedan texts > (starting > with the suttas, then discovering, to my great satisfaction, the > Abidhamma and the Visuddhimagga). > Eleven years after my first course, I still sit regularly, I study > little, but only by circumstance rather than by choice. ... 24029 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Jon: Jon: "Could it be that 'tranquility' necessarily implies > kusala, whereas > concentration doesn’t? Just a thought. By the way, > it may be that > 'tranquility' here refers to mundane samatha/jhana > and not the > concentration that is the proximate cause of > insight." -------------------------------------------------- Jon, a entire discussion group about Jhana wouldn´t to be sufficient to clarify some aspects... if you keep your concentration - or adjust your mind aggregates to a Kusala mode ( it´s only a opinion...whatever gets it first), you´ll reach an eventually 'ecstatic concentration' that is acheived and becomes enwrapt in Jhana - Appana Samadhi - enjoying calm and serenity of one-pointedness ( samatha - tranquility). The mental thought process of Appana Samadhi runs as follows ( I am only checkin´ out my own lists): First Bhavanga,then Manodvaravajjana, Parikamma, Upaccara, Anuloma, Gotrabha, Appana. That´s the part of my own Mss. that is more muddled and out of a proper order. Only to resume, after all the process from Bhavanga to Gothabha and Appana one finally manages to reach the end the First Rupa Jhana. In the case of an Arahant it is a Kriya citta, otherwise it is a Kusala. ------------------------------------------------------ Context would > be important (do you have a particular > passage/reference in mind?). ----------------------------------------------------- I will post the complete process from Bhavanga to Appana ( First Rupa Jhana), after a complete and clarifying work on it !!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24030 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Domanassa Hi Christine & All, Nice to chat to you again;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and All, > > Most of life for me, whether I like it or not, revolves around > feelings. .... I think this is just how it is for most if not all of us. This is why feelings are given such prominence in the Dhamma and why they have their own khandha. In Samyutta Nikaya, they have their own Vedanaasamyutta too, as you know. “But, bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who understand feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation: these I consider to be ascetics among ascetics....and they enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism and the goal of brahminhood.” (Vedanasamyutta, 29(9)) ..... C: >When reflecting on anatta, many people have most > difficulty unhitching from the idea that consciousness or mind is > not "them" - I have most difficulty with unhitching from emotions, > feelings. > I noticed elsewhere that even those who have been Buddhists for > decades, still write unpleasant things when their "buttons are > pushed." ..... Yes, I think we never know when the button is going to be pushed or when there will be conditions for strong lobha or dosa. I think it comes back to those anusaya (latent tendencies) that have been gathering and forming up for so long. Just like the waves -- quite beyond control. It’s better not to have expectations of ourselves or of others. So often, I find, as soon as there is any idea of others, then our old friend (or rather foe) of mana (conceit) is sneaking in again. As Mike would also say, what does it mean to be a ‘Buddhist for decades’? We think we’ve understood a little about anatta, but unless there is repeated awareness of realities being experienced through the 6 doorways, leading to guarding of the senses, there is bound to be craving, aversion and their accompanying feelings that we mind so much about on account of what is seen, heard and so on. Usually, I find, that the strong emotional reactions arise on account of the papanca, the useless proliferations following these experiences through the sense doorways. When there are any wrong views involved -- such as when there is any idea that the concepts at these times are of any intrinsic value -- the reactions are likely to be stronger still. Whilst the sotapanna still experiences the same kinds of feelings and reactions that we do, the kilesa (defilements) are bound to be attenuated without the clinging to any idea of self, I think. ..... >I see the commonness of this emotional reaction that > overwhelms us when we feel threatened or offended as a bit like being > caught by a dumper when bodysurfing - one moment you're standing in > waist deep water mindlessly chatting to those around, and the next > you're knocked by 2 metres of powerfully, raging white water, > swirling head over heels in a dumper with no way to breath, surface, > or have control of what's happening. And then, it has gone, > subsided. While the wave of emotion is present it is not resistable, > and a lot of damage can be done while it holds sway. ..... A very apt simile and a good example of anatta. And having been dumped, what do we do? Go back for more and complain, as Jon and I did today, when there are no waves;-) ..... >I've never > clearly understood the place of these overwhelming emotions in the > Teachings. I've been most familiar with the three factor description > of vedana, which didn't seem to 'fit' my experience ... pleasant > feeling, unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. > I had been reading Contemplation of Feeling by Nyanaponika Thera. > The very first sentence is: "It should be first made clear that, in > Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation > noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). > Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising > from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying > intensity, as well as other thought processes." ..... There are many different classifications for vedana (feelings). When they are classified as three kinds, pleasant feeling includes pleasant bodily and mental feelings and the same for unpleasant feeling. They arise at every moment, with every citta as you know. I think people mean different things by ‘emotion’. Nyanaponika is using it to refer to various cetasikas such as lobha and dosa as well as thinking. We don’t need to try and distinguish between, say, dosa and domanassa. ..... > Thank you for explaining the five types of feeling. I empathise with > Frank in his attempts to do something to reduce the impact of > feelings. I also wonder where Dukkha fits in here - unpleasant > feeling is suffering don't you think? .... I think we all empathise with Frank and I always found my discussions with him very helpful. This is the truth of Dukkha - we cannot have what we want and what we want doesn’t last. As you say, unpleasant feeling is dukkha. It’s ‘dukkha dukkha’ which is what most people understand by ‘suffering’. Dukkha, as the 1st Noble Truth, of course, has a deeper meaning and refers to all conditioned realities which are impermanent (excepting the lokuttara cittas as being discussed which are not the object of clinging). So it may be apparent that the unpleasant feelings and emotions are dukkha, but equally so are the pleasant ones. ..... >Most discussions in Buddhism > centre on bodily feeling. One could get a sense that emotions aren't > considered very important. I feel they mostly rule the world. And > wonder what can be done to lessen their power? .... I agree with you. The real danger are the emotions and various kilesa on account of the sense door experiences. Bodily feeling is vipaka, conditioned already by past kamma. The mental feelings and emotions accompanying the following akusala (unwholesome) cittas are what ‘accumulate’ and condition further akusala kamma, likely to bring further unfortunate vipaka in future. And so the 3 rounds of vipaka, kilesa and kamma-vatta continue. What can be done? In a sense, nothing - anatta and no control again. In another sense, a lot! By developing understanding of all realities - not just of unpleasant feelings and emotions - we begin to see just how short life really is. If there weren’t the present seeing and visible object, hearing, sound, smell, taste, touch and so on, there would be no emotions. Experiences just last for this moment, as we know in theory, and there really is an urgency as James showed in the ‘Fire Sermon’ to understand the ‘all’ and to see it is burning on account of tanha (craving). Hope to hear more comments, feedback and any extracts from Nyanaponika’s wheel on ‘Feelings’ or anything else you’re finding useful or questionable. Metta and best wishes for gentle waves;-) Sarah ====== 24031 From: Sese Novelia Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:52am Subject: Hello Dear Dhamma friends, I'm a new member in this dhamma study group. I'm a Buddhist. I'm very interested in any subject related in Buddhism especially the Theravada. I found this group when I read a message in Pali Group. I hope we may get benefits from our discussions in this group. with metta, Sese 24032 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Larry Thanks for this summary of the next 3 sections. Somehow a summary isn't quite the same as the original text (no reflection on your summary ;-)). It makes it difficult to comment, since the full context is not there. Would it be any problem to go back to using the exact text? If it's a question of the preparation time, perhaps others would be happy to sharer the work. Also, the individual instalments could be kept shorter, to make it easier. Just a suggestion. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > The next three paragraphs illustrate the three modes of knowing > (sanna, > consciousness, panna) by means of the simile of a child, a > villager, and > a money changer all looking at a heap of coins. Like the child, > sanna > knows only the outward appearance. Like the villager, consciousness > is > able to penetrate the characteristics of the coins. Like the money > changer who knows every aspect of the coins, panna extends further > to the manifestation of the path. ... 24033 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:05am Subject: Control Hi, all - What cetana can and cannot accomplish: While sitting at your desk, continually draw a circle clockwise in the air with your right foot. ("You" willed it, and it happened, right?) Then, while that is happening, use your right hand to draw a large figure "6" in the the air. (Interesting, isn't it? ;-)) Causes and conditions!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24034 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Jon, I wrote: "However, I think the tendency to carry an object over to another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika." And you replied: "In 'Cetasikas' (p. 81), Nina cites a passage from Vism that seems to attribute this function to vitakka: <<< Vitakka which is developed in samatha "thinks" of the meditation subject and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína and middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, 88): "… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…" Thus, in samatha vitakka "touches" the meditation subject again and again until calm has developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained.: Larry: I think what you are referring to is vicara (sustained thought). As a guess, I would say vicara is a crude form of one-pointedness and I would still maintain that one-pointed cetasika manifests, grows, and subsides as repitition of countless consciousness processes concerned with one generic object. I was concentrating on this issue this morning with vitakka and vicara and I think it might be like the points of light on a computer or television screen. The more points you have concentrated together, the clearer the picture. This might be why sammasana nana comprehends "by groups", i.e., because there isn't enough concentration to experience individual realities. Because of this, ironically, ultimate reality will never be anything more than a concept for us. However, I don't think it is necessary to discriminate ultimate realities in order to realize the end of suffering. In the suttas that point of realization just happens. There is nothing like "aHA, I just experienced a single rupa!" As to the issue of whether the proximate cause of insight is tranquil, I don't have a sutta reference, but would welcome one. I think we are in agreement that tranquility itself is a manifestation of the matrix of kusala cittas and cetasikas, specifially the absence of the hindrances. By abhidhamma logic, panna will not arise unless the beaitiful universal cetasikas arise. So I would say there is the tranquility. However, one thing that is not in the abhidhamma (that I know of) is that panna will not arise unless there is a high degree of concentration. I'm speculating that this could happen almost instantaneously. I think there is more to concentration than meets the eye. So I'm looking forward to greater enlightenment on this issue. Any ideas? Larry 24035 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro: "I will post the complete process from Bhavanga to Appana ( First Rupa Jhana), after a complete and clarifying work on it !!!!" Hi Icaro, I am interested in this. When you post it could you translate and explain, briefly, the terms? Thanks. Larry 24036 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Hi Jon, Regarding the superiority of copies over summaries there are several issues: 1. Some topics stretch over several paragraphs and any given paragraph doesn't contain a particularly discussion-worthy point. So the solution is either a short summary or long email. I'm not a good typist, so this can pose some difficulties. 2. Copywrite issues. I don't know if we could get away with typing out all 838 pages. 3. I think people who have the book have to lead the way in discussions. If there is some point that needs a direct quote, they could make it. 4. Everyone who is interested in this study program should buy the book. 5. No one is discussing either way. Any ideas on how to increase participation? Larry ---------------------- Jon: Larry Thanks for this summary of the next 3 sections. Somehow a summary isn't quite the same as the original text (no reflection on your summary ;-)). It makes it difficult to comment, since the full context is not there. Would it be any problem to go back to using the exact text? If it's a question of the preparation time, perhaps others would be happy to sharer the work. Also, the individual instalments could be kept shorter, to make it easier. Just a suggestion. Jon 24037 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: Control Hi Howard, Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- control"? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > What cetana can and cannot accomplish: While sitting at your desk, > continually draw a circle clockwise in the air with your right foot. ("You" > willed it, and it happened, right?) Then, while that is happening, use your right > hand to draw a large figure "6" in the the air. (Interesting, isn't it? ;-)) > Causes and conditions!! > > With metta, > Howard 24038 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi mike I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, then the answer lies there. rgds KC --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > mike 24039 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:34am Subject: Re: Control --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- > control"? > > Peace, > Victor Hi Victor (Howard), Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it is an illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. Metta, James 24040 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Howard, Good one :-))) I laughed out loud. I guess the idea is that intention controls the kamma but not the world, or something like that??? Larry ----------------------- Howard: Hi, all - What cetana can and cannot accomplish: While sitting at your desk, continually draw a circle clockwise in the air with your right foot. ("You" willed it, and it happened, right?) Then, while that is happening, use your right hand to draw a large figure "6" in the the air. (Interesting, isn't it? ;-)) Causes and conditions!! With metta, Howard 24041 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Thanks, Nina, looking forward to it! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. > Dear Mike, > op 09-08-2003 17:20 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > There is much more to it. I am still at transl Dhamma Issues, and after that > there is a second Bulletin which is entirely about anusayas. I am looking > forward myself to learn more. > It will take a while! > Nina 24042 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Agreed, Kenneth--same question, I think? I'm definitely out of my depth here--must read up on samasanna. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Ong To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > Hi mike > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > then the answer lies there. > > rgds > KC > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > mike 24043 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Nina, What is the paali for 'groups'? More on sammasana, from CMA IX 32, p. 350: "When he as thus discerned the formations of the three planes together with their conditions, the meditator collects them into groups by way of such categories as the aggregates etc., divided in the past (present and future). "He next comprehends, with the knowledge of comprehension [sammasana~naa.nena], those formations in terms of the three characteristics--impermanence in the sense of destruction, suffering in the sense of fearfulness, and non-self in the sense of corelessness--by way of duration, continuity and moment. Then he contemplates with the knowledge of rise and fall the rising and falling (of those formations) by way of condition and by way of moment." From the 'Guide to 32': "Collects them into groups: This shows the preparation for knowledge of comprehension (sammasana~naa.na) the phase in the development of insight wherein the mental and material phenomena are explored in terms of the three characteristics. The meditator first considers all materiality--whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, as comprised of the materiality aggregate. Similarly, he considers all feelings, perceptions, mental formations and acts of consciousness to be comprised by their respective aggregates--the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate." ... "The knowledge of rise and fall (udayabbaya~naa.na)is the knowledge in contemplating the arising and cessation of formations. By "rise" is meant the generation, production or arising of states; by "fall" is meant their change, destruction, dissolution. The knowledge of rise and fall is exercised "by way of condition" (paccayavasena) when one sees how formations arise through the arising of their conditions and cease through the cessation of their conditions. It is exercised "by way of the moment" (kha.navasena) when one contemplates the actual generation and dissolution of the momentary phenomena in the present moment as they arise and pass away. (See Vism. XX, 93-99). From Vism. XX, 96: "He understands thus: 'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf. S.iv,197)*, but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck and the man's appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes--so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, having been they vanish.'" *Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.205 Vina Sutta The Lute "...Suppose there were a king or king's minister who had never heard the sound of a lute before. He might hear the sound of a lute and say, 'What, my good men, is that sound -- so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling?' They would say, 'That, sire, is called a lute, whose sound is so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling.' Then he would say, 'Go & fetch me that lute.' They would fetch the lute and say, 'Here, sire, is the lute whose sound is so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling.' He would say, 'Enough of your lute. Fetch me just the sound.' Then they would say, 'This lute, sire, is made of numerous components, a great many components. It's through the activity of numerous components that it sounds: that is, in dependence on the body, the skin, the neck, the frame, the strings, the bridge, and the appropriate human effort. Thus it is that this lute -- made of numerous components, a great many components -- sounds through the activity of numerous components.' "Then the king would split the lute into ten pieces, a hundred pieces. Having split the lute into ten pieces, a hundred pieces, he would shave it to splinters. Having shaved it to splinters, he would burn it in a fire. Having burned it in a fire, he would reduce it to ashes. Having reduced it to ashes, he would winnow it before a high wind or let it be washed away by a swift-flowing stream. He would then say, 'A sorry thing, this lute -- whatever a lute may be -- by which people have been so thoroughly tricked & deceived.' "In the same way, a monk investigates form, however far form may go. He investigates feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go. As he is investigating form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go, any thoughts of 'me' or 'mine' or 'I am' do not occur to him." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-205.html ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > Agreed, Kenneth--same question, I think? I'm definitely out of my depth > here--must read up on samasanna. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kenneth Ong > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of > insight) > > > > Hi mike > > > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > > then the answer lies there. > > > > rgds > > KC > > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > > > mike 24044 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Kenneth: Kenneth:"I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a > paramattha dhamma, > then the answer lies there." ----------------------------------------------------- As stated at Sujin Boriharnwanaket´s "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas":"Citta is the paramattha dhamma that arises and cognises different objects, such as colour, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object or other things, depending on what type of citta arises.". reviewing the definition of Paramattha Dhammas: Real Truths: (Paramattha-sacca) 1. Lokiya - Mundane a. Consciousness - viññana b. Mental Properties - cetasika c. Matter - Rupa 2. Nibbana - Supramundane We see that Citta & Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana forms the Paramattha Dhammas, immersed at more wide class of Real truths (Paramattha-Sacca). Groups and Concepts do lie at the realm of Citta´s mind objects, but can be pertinent at the class of Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional Truths: 1. Santhana pannatti - concepts of form, like land, mountains, etc. 2. Samuha pannatti - collective concepts, corresponding to a collection or group of things, like chariot, table, etc. 3. Disa pannatti - concepts of locality. 4. Kala pannatti - concepts of time. 5. Akasa pannatti - concepts of space, like caves, wells, etc. 6. Nimitta pannatti - conceptualized images, visualized images. So, we can perceive that Groups, despite to be Citta´s object, have got the definition of the Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional Truths. They aren´t Paramattha Dhammas! Metta, Ícaro > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi > Sarah, > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > mike ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24045 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) op 10-08-2003 03:54 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Nina: "When she says the mind-door, she means the > mind-door >> process." Icaro: > Namely, Bhavanga. N: I should add: mind-door and mind-door process. As you said, In the mind-door sixty-seven types of consciousness arise such as mind-door apprehending, fifty-five javanas, and retention. The mind-door is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness (you say, apprehending) arises. As A. Sujin explained before: insight can also realize bhavanga-citta. She said: there is nothing (nothing appears) and then a reality appears. But there is no time for thinking or counting, too fast. Panna which has become keen is extremely fast. I: But there are nineteen types of consciousness such > as relinking, bhavanga also, and decease that are > without doors. Perhaps at this point Vipassana nana > begins to "pass away", making appear the Satipatthana. N: After the moments of vipassana nana have fallen away panna has to go on developing. What was realized at the moments of vipassana nana is not forgotten, but it has to be applied. Certainly bhavangacittas always arise in between different processes, but I do not see this as a passing away. > > Nina: "When satipatthana is being developed, we >> do not know nama as it >> really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is >> directly >> known." > I: That?s because we are already at the no-door level: > investigation, accompanied by indifference, and the > Great Resultants arise either throught the six doors > or without a door. > The sublime Resultants do arise without a door. N: I do not see this connection here. You mean by no-door level bhavangacitta. The development of satipatthana is not bhavangacitta. But perhaps you mean something else? What I liked at the end: N: bhumi: they are the objects of satipatthana (thus no bhavanga). An uncountable number realities has to be known. This can arouse endeavour, but, as you also stressed: without an idea of self. Nina. > > 24046 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, Victor - In a message dated 8/10/03 11:19:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- > control"? > > Peace, > Victor ======================== I think this just puts cetana into proper perspective. It is a condition among many, and is neither powerless nor all powerful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24047 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, James - In a message dated 8/10/03 11:34:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Victor (Howard), > > Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it is an > illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned > boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. > > Metta, James > > ======================== Exactly as I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24048 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 0:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina: Corrections are really welcome, Nina!!!!! N: "I do not see this connection here. You mean by > no-door level > bhavangacitta. The development of satipatthana is > not bhavangacitta. But > perhaps you mean something else?" ---------------------------------------------------- Let´s see... Satipatthana can be the cetasika sati or the object of mindfulness. Sublime Resultant Jhanas arise with no door, and Bhavangacitta does not arise within a process but in between processes. So, keeping the train of reasonings, Satipatthana arises within a process, being distinct by definition of the Bhavangacitta. You are right !!! ----------------------------------------------------- > N: bhumi: they are the objects of satipatthana (thus > no bhavanga). An > uncountable number realities has to be known. This > can arouse endeavour, > but, as you also stressed: without an idea of self. > Nina. ------------------------------------------------------- Right on ! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24049 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/10/03 11:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Good one :-))) I laughed out loud. I guess the idea is that intention > controls the kamma but not the world, or something like that??? > > Larry > ========================= Yes. Intention *is* kamma. And it is the major condition, though not the sole one, influencing kamma vipaka. In general, it is one condition out of many - not to be ignored, nor to be given too much credit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24050 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Howard, and All, It is the fitting together of kamma and conditionality that seems to be all there is ... no-one to do the controlling - quite depressing really. But that's another thread. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 8/10/03 11:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Good one :-))) I laughed out loud. I guess the idea is that intention > > controls the kamma but not the world, or something like that??? > > > > Larry > > > ========================= > Yes. Intention *is* kamma. And it is the major condition, though not > the sole one, influencing kamma vipaka. In general, it is one condition out of > many - not to be ignored, nor to be given too much credit. > > With metta, > Howard 24051 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/10/03 3:34:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hi Howard, and All, > > It is the fitting together of kamma and conditionality that seems to > be all there is ... no-one to do the controlling - quite depressing > really. But that's another thread. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine ======================== I sincerely suspect that what might appear depressing (or even fearful) at one point will eventually come to be seen as delightful and liberating. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24052 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:59pm Subject: Computer symbol silliness Dear Group, (Can I blame this on Howard's incitement in his cetana post? :-)) Just wanted to tell of the "discoveries" that learning Pali can lead to. I probably should just have asked a question here first, but then wouldn't have found the unusual 'poem' below: I was looking for just what effect the wiggly line found over some letters - called a "tilde" - has on pronunciation. Not being computer literate I don't know how to make this diacritical mark, and my Pali homework to my tutor consists of typed sentences with a little note after some words in translated sentences saying e.g." wise ones = pannavanto (with little wiggly lines over each 'n')" { I have a very tolerant tutor. :-)] Anyway, when looking at websites about diacritical marks, I came across the following doggerel about computer symbols: ==================================================== "The following poem is excerpted with permission from Lee Leitner's "Viewpoint" column which is featured in a bimonthly periodical for Prime INFORMATION users called INFOCUS magazine. The original authors were Fred Bremmer and Steve Kroese of Calvin College & Seminary of Grand Rapids, MI. FYI - a "wahka" is the decidedly "proper" (by popular vote) name for the characters ">" and "<". This is in spite of INFOCUS readers of Denver who still refer to them as "Norkies". The Michigan crowd apparently has corrupted the spelling to "waka". To wit, it is - ------------------------------------------------------------ "...a poem we think is about the lowly wahka. Maybe. Well, perhaps---we're really not sure what the poem actually is about. Here it goes:" <>!*''# ^@`$$- !*'$_ %*<>#4 &)../ |{~~SYSTEM HALTED Transliterated: Waka waka bang splat tick tick hash, Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash, Bang splat tick dollar under-score, Percent splat waka waka number four, Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash, Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||| Well, "waka waka" is fun to say, but I can't believe that truly geeky nerds could have allowed the confusion of two Boolean operator characters. I think you'd really have to say greater waka and lesser waka, each of which scans the same as waka waka and leaves us with: >!*''# ^@`$$- !*'$_ %*<#4 &)../ |{~~SYSTEM HALTED Greater waka bang splat tick tick hash, Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash, Bang splat tick dollar under-score, Percent splat lesser waka number four, Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash, Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH. So, now it's an original work by me through the magic of universal solvent." ========================================================= I still don't know what effect a tilde has on pronunciation or how to make one. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24053 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Icaro, Thanks--I actually know all this (incredibly)--what I can't figure out is what is the Paali for 'groups'--what does 'groups' refer to other than khandhas (which are paramattha, right?) mike ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > > Dear Kenneth: > > Kenneth:"I think if we ask ourselves whether is group > a > > paramattha dhamma, > > then the answer lies there." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > As stated at Sujin Boriharnwanaket´s "A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas":"Citta is the paramattha dhamma > that arises and > cognises different objects, such as colour, sound, > odour, > flavour, tangible object or other things, depending on > what > type of citta arises.". reviewing the definition of > Paramattha Dhammas: > > > Real Truths: (Paramattha-sacca) > 1. Lokiya - Mundane > a. Consciousness - viññana > b. Mental Properties - cetasika > c. Matter - Rupa > 2. Nibbana - Supramundane > > > We see that Citta & Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana forms > the Paramattha Dhammas, immersed at more wide class of > Real truths (Paramattha-Sacca). Groups and Concepts do > lie at the realm of Citta´s mind objects, but can be > pertinent at the class of Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional > Truths: > 1. Santhana pannatti - concepts of form, like > land, mountains, etc. > 2. Samuha pannatti - collective concepts, > corresponding to a collection or group of things, like > chariot, table, etc. > 3. Disa pannatti - concepts of locality. > 4. Kala pannatti - concepts of time. > 5. Akasa pannatti - concepts of space, like caves, > wells, etc. > 6. Nimitta pannatti - conceptualized images, > visualized images. > > So, we can perceive that Groups, despite to be > Citta´s object, have got the definition of the > Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional Truths. They aren´t > Paramattha Dhammas! > > Metta, Ícaro > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi > > Sarah, > > > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > > > mike 24054 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Howard, Well-said--that is, that's just the way I see it...! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Control > ...Intention *is* kamma. And it is the major condition, though not > the sole one, influencing kamma vipaka. In general, it is one condition out of > many - not to be ignored, nor to be given too much credit. 24055 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Control > It is the fitting together of kamma and conditionality that seems to > be all there is ... Of course kamma is just one of the conditions--never mind 'all there is'--aren't we concerned with dukkha and the end of dukkha? > no-one to do the controlling - quite depressing > really. Not liberating?! I can't tell you how what a relief it is to know that sankhaarakhanda (e.g.) is not self... Cheers Mate, mike 24056 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: Control Hi James, Yeah, I tried and couldn't do it. I thought it might be an instance of "incontrollability". :-) Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > > Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- > > control"? > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > Hi Victor (Howard), > > Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it is an > illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned > boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. > > Metta, James 24057 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Christine: "I still don't know what effect a tilde has on pronunciation or how to make one. :-)" Hi Christine, Sometimes ~n is transliterated as ny. That's why some people (Dan for instance) spell pa~n~naa as panya. It is also a very common sound in español (spanish). Not all computers can read or make ñ so for universal readability it is done as ~n. I make it by pressing Alt and n at the same time then n by itself. Larry 24058 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Christine, Further clarification: when transliterating ~n as ny in panya, for example, the y is a y sound as in yes, not an i sound as in pania. Larry 24059 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Chris & Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Further clarification: when transliterating ~n as ny in panya, for > example, the y is a y sound as in yes, not an i sound as in pania. ..... I think the closest Aussie equivalent is ‘onya’ as in ‘Onya Mate’ said with a headcold preferably to make it more nasal. My problem is fonts (or lack of) for Mac computers. I go to the site that Icaro recommended for DhammasanganiPali and am confronted with all the usual weird and wonderful symbols with an occasional letter. The fonts don’t work, so I’m left reading the symbols trying to make some sense. Same for the suttas - trying to make out ‘sukkhavihara’ for Mike in the jigsaw puzzle of symbols.... Likewise, the CDRom everyone talks about from the Vipassana Institute doesn't work for Macs and I've never been able to access the Foundation website yet. (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very simple for me to follow). Oh well, just another challenge in samsara. Seeya, Sarah ===== 24060 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: Hello Hello Sese, Welcome to dsg. I think that you will feel quite at home here, and I look forward to reading your posts. I hope you will say a little about where you live and any other details you may care to give. (I live in Brisbane Australia, have a grown up family, and a great dane dog - the rest of this group are spread all over the world.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sese Novelia wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > I'm a new member in this dhamma study group. I'm a Buddhist. I'm very interested in any subject related in Buddhism especially the Theravada. > I found this group when I read a message in Pali Group. I hope we may get benefits from our discussions in this group. > > with metta, > > Sese 24061 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Sarah and all, > Hi Chris & Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > Further clarification: when transliterating ~n as ny in panya, for > > example, the y is a y sound as in yes, not an i sound as in pania. > ..... > > I think the closest Aussie equivalent is 'onya' as in 'Onya Mate' said > with a headcold preferably to make it more nasal. Also, the 'ni' in 'onion' is identical to the '~n' or 'ñ' (alt + 0241 on the numeric keypad of a PC). > My problem is fonts (or lack of) for Mac computers. I go to the site that > Icaro recommended for DhammasanganiPali and am confronted with all the > usual weird and wonderful symbols with an occasional letter. The fonts > don't work, so I'm left reading the symbols trying to make some sense. > Same for the suttas - trying to make out 'sukkhavihara' for Mike in the > jigsaw puzzle of symbols.... Likewise, the CDRom everyone talks about from > the Vipassana Institute doesn't work for Macs and I've never been able to > access the Foundation website yet. > > (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very simple > for me to follow). One solution might be to copy and paste the book or a portion of it from the browser page to a writing program and then do a simple search and replace-all command for each of the gibberish characters once you've figured out which Pali letter is represented. Ten search and replace-all commands will convert all of the lowercase letters, although the few gibberish capital letters remaining will also need replacing. This can be rather tedious work if you need to do it often. Some writing programs allow you to write a macro with a macro editor. This would make it possible for you to write a little search and replace utility to do all those search and replace-all commands with a couple of keystrokes and save you some time. Best wishes, Jim 24062 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hello Sarah, Larry, Jim and all, Jim, it works!!! --> ñ <-- :-) :-) Do you have any hints for the line over long vowels? metta, Chris 24063 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:25pm Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. I add message for Icaro at the end. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:03:33 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Meanings of dhamma, no 5. Now we have come to a text of the Saddaniti, a grammar written by the Thera Aggava.msa of Pagan, in 1154. The Saddaniti gives the same meanings of dhamma as stated in the Atthasaalinii, but in addition it gives several more meanings of dhamma. First: The Saddaniti refers for the meaning of hetu, cause, to the analytical knowledge of cause, dhammapa.tisambhidaa. The Saddaniti then gives another list which has in addition several more meanings of dhamma: The Saddaniti explains the different meanings: N: In the Books of the Abhidhamma all realities are classified as threefold: kusala, akusala and abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, they are indeterminate. Kusala dhammas are the kusala cittas with their accompanying cetasikas (mental factors). Akusala dhammas are the akusala cittas with their accompanying cetasikas. Indeterminate dhammas are: vipaakacittas (cittas which are results of kamma) and their accompanying cetasikas. Kiriyacittas, inoperative cittas, cittas which are neither cause (kusala or akusala) nor result, with their accompanying cetasikas. Ruupa, physical phenomena and nibbaana. For example, in the First Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, Book III, Part I, Ch 1, we read about this triple classificastion of all realities. They are all dhammas each with their own specific characteristic, sabhaava. ***** P.S. to Icaro: You could look at Abhidhammatta Sangaha pali, Ch III, pakinnaka sanghaho, under hetu sangaho: lobho doso ca moho hetuu akusala tayo lobha, dosa and moha are three akusala roots alobhaadosaamoho ca kusalaabyaakataa tathaa. alobha, adosa and amoha are thus kusala and abyakata. Nina. 24064 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] group or collection.. Hi Mike, op 10-08-2003 19:57 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...:> > What is the paali for 'groups'? N: Not sure, but sa"ngaaha means: collection. And, as Icaro says, samuuha: multitude or mass. But in your quote of Vis, I do not have the Pali. Thank you for the texts. As it is explained by a.Sujin in the tape: it appears and is object of satipatthana, thus, in this context it is not a pannatti. Take the four Great Elements and four other rupas in a unit, such a unit is real, not a pannatti. It is under rupa paramattha. A. Sujin also said before; when we speak about groups, we mostly refer to rupa. There are units of rupas surrounded by infinitesimally tiny space Sarah also quoted: Here is the key, I think. Nina. 24065 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Christine, The line over the long vowel is called a macron. Unfortunately, there is no such for Pali vowel characters in the standard encoding range: 128-255 where we find the 'ñ' (0241). You could use the acute symbol to mark the long vowels: á (alt+0225), í (alt+0237), ú (alt+0250). Although these characters may show up correctly on your computer, it may show up as gibberish on somebody else's computer if they're using a different character set. In email messages it's best to use the characters within the range 32-127 which the Velthuis scheme adopts: ~n instead of ñ, double vowels for long ones: aa ii uu, dot before (.t .d .n .l .m) for the dot under. Best wishes, Jim < ñ <-- :-) :-) Do you have any hints for the line over long vowels? metta, Chris >> 24066 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, (Kom & Nori), --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in > several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a conflict: > if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? > > Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of > dukkha. >..... I was interested to follow up on a couple of your references below: V: > * > > Train in solitude > & the contemplative's task, > Solitude > is called > sagacity. > Alone, you truly delight > & shine in the ten directions. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- > 11.html S: To quote a little bit more from the same source: In one who has no attachment -- the monk who has cut the stream, abandoning what is & isn't a duty -- no fever is found. I'll explain to you sagacity: be like a razor's edge. Pressing tongue against palate, restrain your stomach. Neither be lazy in mind, nor have many thoughts. Be committed to taintlessness, independent, having the holy life as your aim. Train in solitude & the contemplative's task, Solitude is called sagacity. Alone, you truly delight ***** Does it mean here that he should physically live alone or refer to the giving up of attachment? Earlier we read about his hving abandoned desire and lust and how he should behave when he visits a village on his alms round. “he should not rejoice at an invitation or a present from the village”....”he should not utter a word with an ulterior motive”. Whether he receives anything or not, it’s fine and he returns to the same tree. Finally, after the verse you quote, at the end we read (I’m using Norman’s PTS transl): “Know this by the streams [which flow] in clefts and crevices. [Rivers in] small channels move noisily; the great oceans move in silence. What is not full makes a noise. What is full is indeed silent. A fool is like a half-filled pot; a wise man is like a full pool.” I read this sutta as urging the abandoning of ‘desire and lust’. “He should cross over hell". Isn’t this the sense of solitude or the full pool that is being referred to? I followed up on the following verse because I found the translation so delightful and this is what interested me in your post;-) > > One alone is like Brahma, > two, like devas, > three, like a village, > more than that: > a hullabaloo. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/thag03.html# Mrs R-D’s transl for the same verse is not as colourful: “Alone a man is even as Brahma. And as angels if he have one mate. Like to a village is a group of three. Like to a noisy crowd if more there be.” In this case, definitely Yasoja is praising solitude, living alone in the forest. Should we follow his example? When he uttered this verse, he had acquired the six abhinna (supernormal knowledges including arahantship. If we went to live in the forest alone, thinking that we would then also develop the same wisdom, it would be wrong I think. I think we have to read and consider these passages carefully and in context and according to what we’ve read elsewhere as well. Look forward to more comments and quotes;-) Metta, Sarh ===== 24067 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Bases of Power Hi Victor, On our other thread, I’ve left aside your quotes and comments which I have no problem with;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > >Regarding your question: > > what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this moment? > > I would not want to speak for others. And I would think that it is > more important for me to apply the "fabrications of exertion"/four > right exertions with regard to whatever skillful/wholesome and > unskillful/unwholesome qualities that has or hasn't arisen. > > Your comments are appreciated. ..... S: I think we can pretty well close this thread in full agreement, by just adding the following quotes of yours from the ‘Control’ thread to your comments above on the four right exertions: ***** V: “Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no-control"?” V: “Yeah, I tried and couldn't do it. I thought it might be an instance of "incontrollability". :-)” ***** I think, in summary, this whole thread has been about our understandings of anatta, effort and control. Perhaps we can move onto ‘solitude’ and ‘forest life’ unless you have further comments here;-) I appreciate these discussions, Victor - they’re getting more and more interesting, I think. Apologies as usual for delays in response - I always have to check and consider before replying to you;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24068 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Trying to understand my last meditation & Dhamma Hi Molly (& Nori), I’m also really glad to welcome you here and to thank you for your long and interesting introduction without extra prompts;-). It always helps to have an idea of where someone ‘comes from’ in their study and interest in the Dhamma. You also give Nori an example of another friendly New Yorker, though I note you live in Hawaii now. Perhaps you’ll bump into Frank there (see ‘convict on the run’ in the photo album;-)) I’d just like to pick up on one part of your post for now, which as you say is a difficult area for most of us to comprehend. I was reminded of it by a note a friend sent off-list: ..... --- mollyo wrote: >We need not contemplate further, wondering > about > other people's kamma and how does it coincide with our kamma, etc.. we > are > best to simply accept that dhamma is dhamma is dhamma and it is a > manifestation of our own making and no more. it may appear to be far > more > complicated than that. it may appear as if someone has harmed us, > someone > has lied to us or stole from us or hit us, but indeed, they do not exist > > outside of Dhamma, our own mind made them and this action. We completely > > created this experience. we are not victims. we are creators, always. ..... Perhaps we can even say there are no victims or creators, just the various mental and physical phenomena, inter-relating by conditions. People find this very objectionable and even threatening. They think it means we’re implying that one should never take any action. This of course would be wrong understanding of kamma-vipaka, as I see it. ..... > this > concept is so radical for a western mind! In the USA we hire lawyers to > prove that we are innocent victims of this crime or of that injustice... > > much ado about nothing, we harm ourselves further by searching for blame > > rather than accepting responsibility. This lesson is so difficult to > grasp, > it is undesireable. it requires deep acceptance and understanding. > Our attention should always be on ourselves. This is why Vipassana is so > > useful and profound, leading us to deeper and deeper understanding of > the > true nature of reality, taking us into the experience of our own > changing > nature, taking the attention off of others and into our own body, > feelings, > mind and mental contents. .... I agree with your comments. We are always looking for blame or misunderstanding how ‘useful and profound’ Vipassana is. On the other hand, I don’t think that understanding more about these truths, as you describe them, necessarily means that we shouldn’t play any part in bringing perpetrators of crime to justice, do you? I was half-following the trial of one of the key Bali terrorists. Conventionally speaking, we’d say that the victims, many Australian and badly injured, were very brave to return and give evidence leading to the conviction. When the death penalty by firing squad was announced, some questioned the penalty and their part in the process. Of course, their main concern had been for ‘justice’. Whatever we do, or don’t do, we act from so many different motives, good and bad and usually with complete ignorance of anatta, kamma and the other realities you refer to. What do you think? ..... > may we all be liberated. > may we all come out of suffering. > may we all develop goodwill. > may we all develop the Paramis. .... It’s unusual to hear from someone with such a keen interest in the various aspects of the Dhamma. Nina just finished translating a long series on the Paramis with a lot of textual reference. You may find it interesting to read: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Her own briefer series on the Perfections, which I think is very clearly written and perhaps easier to follow in the first place, can be found on the same website or here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ...... Many thanks for sharing all your other reflections, Molly, and look forward to many more. With metta, Sarah ======= 24069 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Mike (& Jeff), --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This seems to be my day to paraphrase--could I sum this up by saying > that, > 'sukha vihaara', pleasant abiding, means 'bliss associated with > fruition-attainment' in reference to an arahanta; and something else in > reference to a non-arahanta (rather than saying that 'sukha vihaara', > pleasant abiding, only means 'bliss associated with fruition-attainment' > for > an arahanta)? ..... Yes, certainly not the latter. Perhaps we can say that ‘sukha vihaara’ refers to pleasant abiding for those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. “All ariyans attain their own respective fruition” Ud Comy, Enlightenmnet Ch. From an earlier post: ..... Howard: > > Why the need for a "vacation"? > Mike: > I've always found this interesting, too--it's clear from the suttas that > the > Buddha often took such 'breaks'. ..... Further from Udana Comy: “All ariyans attain their own respective fruition. But why do these attain (same)? With the aim of abiding in that bliss belonging to these seen conditions. For just as a king experienes royal bliss, the devataa heavenly bliss, so do ariyans attain fruition-attainment at the moment of their choice(icchitakkha.ne) after (first) setting the limit for the period (proposed) thinking “I will experience supermundane bliss”. Earlier in the same chapter comy; “...in the present case it is the Lord’s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbana as its object that is implied, for which reason “Experiencing the bliss of liberation (vimmuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedii) means was seated experiencing the bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment” was said. And “liberation” (vimutti) is the state in which consciousness (cittassa) is liberated from the corruptions by way of tranquillization, or alternatively it is consciousness (citta.m) itself that is to be understood as liberated in that way, the bliss (sukha.m) born as a result of, or else associated with, that liberation (vimutti) being the “bliss of liveration” (vimuttisukha.m). ..... > It seems evident from Jon's and Larry's excerpts that "blissful abiding > here > and now" is only for arahants. .... I think that is clarified - nirodha samapatti only for anagami and arahant and phala samapatti or sukha vihara, we need to read in context. .... I've often used it to refer to mundane > jhaana. Are there no references to this for ordinary people? .... As you gave before. Udana Comy: “But some say that sotapannas and once-returners do not attain fruition-attainment, that only the two higher (types of ariyapuggala) attain it, on account of the fact that it is they (alone) who have brought things to fulfilment where concentration is concerned. This is unreasonable - since even the putthujana attains the mundane concentration he has himself acquired.” ..... >As for > 'rebirth in the brahma-world' could this ever refer to momentary > (kha.nika) > rebirth? The descriptions in the suttas of the cultivation of the > brahma-vihaaras has always sounded a lot like a "blissful abiding here > and > now" to me. .... I’m not sure that it can. I agree that the fully developed brahma-viharas sounds very like a ‘blissful abiding’, abiding in loving-kindness jhana for example: From the Metta Discourse; “brahmam eta’m vihaara’m’m idha-m-aahu” ‘This is divine Abiding here, they say’, Comy transl by ~Naanamoli in Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings): “The meaning is this. There is this abiding in lovingkindness that is set forth in the way beginning with the words ‘joyful and safe’ and down as far as (the words) ‘He would pursue this mindfulness’. Now it is this (eta’m) - since among the heavenly abidings, divine abidings, noble abidings, and abidings in the postures, it is immaculate and is beneficial both to oneself and others - that is, they say (aahu) here (idha) in the Noble Ones’ True Idea and Discipline, a Divine Abiding (brahma’m vihaara’m). It is a foremost abiding, they say, and consequently he would such mindfulness pursue (decide on) constantly, continuously and uninterruptedly, whether standing or walking, seated too, or lying down the while undrowsing.” However, the bhikkhus still had to emerge from ‘the abiding in loving kindness jhana’ and develop all the insights. They used metta jhana as basis and attained arahatship. Hope there’s something of use, here Mike. I'll be glad for any corrections. I also gave more detail on the last comments from the Khuddakapaa.tha, Metta Discourse in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12474.html Metta, Sarah P.S. Jeff, no need to send us any more (off-list)invitations to your group, just because I’ve mentioned ‘jhana’ a few times;-), but you’re most welcome to join in this or any other thread here with your 'insights'. ====== 24070 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path consciousness included in the first Noble Truth? Jim Thanks very much for these references and suggestions for further reading. I'm just getting around to following them up, and will get back to you later if I find anything interesting. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > I think the Analysis of Truth in the Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) > could > shed some more light on the four noble truths as there is a section > that relates it to the Abhidhamma triplets and couplets. It seems > that > from my reading so far, strictly speaking, the lokuttaradhammas are > excluded from the five upadanakkhandhas. > > The Path of Discrimination (see Treatise of Knowledge) provides > some > interesting details about the status of the paths and the fruits > expecially with regards to the last 3 of the 22 faculties > (indriyas). > See for example §7 which includes: the final-knower faculty (the > a~n~naataavindriya of the arahant) is to be directly known, the > origin > of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the cessation > of > the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the path leading > to > the cessation of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. > Also at §92: When he sees the final-knower faculty he abandons > [it]. . > . When he sees nibbaana which merges in the deathless he abandons > [it]. So nothing is spared in this ruthless and systematic > abandoning, > not even nibbaana! The final-knower faculty is also included in the > following formulas: sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa/dukkhaa according to > §221. 24071 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro Thanks for this. I agree that jhana is a very complex subject. However, I think the thrust of Larry's thread has been concentration as a proximate cause of insight, rather than the development of mundane jhana, which is why I was happy not to venture into that area ;-)) I admire your enthusiasm for the lesser-read parts of the Tipitaka. Keep it up! Jon --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Jon: > Jon, a entire discussion group about Jhana wouldn´t > to be sufficient to clarify some aspects... if you > keep your concentration - or adjust your mind > aggregates to a Kusala mode ( it´s only a > opinion...whatever gets it first), you´ll reach an > eventually 'ecstatic concentration' that is acheived > and becomes enwrapt in Jhana - Appana Samadhi - > enjoying calm and serenity of one-pointedness ( > samatha - tranquility). The mental thought process of > Appana Samadhi runs as follows ( I am only checkin´ > out my own lists): > > First Bhavanga,then Manodvaravajjana, Parikamma, > Upaccara, Anuloma, Gotrabha, Appana. 24072 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I wrote: "However, I think the tendency to carry an object over to > another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika." > > And you replied: "In 'Cetasikas' (p. 81), Nina cites a passage from > Vism > that seems to attribute this function to vitakka: > <<< > Vitakka which is developed in samatha "thinks" of the meditation > subject > and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína > and > middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, > 88): > "… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object > struck > at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…" Thus, in > samatha > vitakka "touches" the meditation subject again and again until calm > has > developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained.: > > Larry: I think what you are referring to is vicara (sustained > thought). It depends whether you go by the name or by the detailed description ;-)). I think you feel that the term 'sustained thought' seems to fit the kind of continuity you are interested in finding out about. But according to the actual description, it is vitakka that has the greater role in citta taking the same object repeatedly. Jon 24073 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Larry On your point 5, I think that without the actual text there is unlikely to be any discussion. How about posting just the text of passages that you think are worth discussing? That might be better than summaries of the passages that are too long. We have sorted out the copyright aspect, so that is not an issue. Appreciating your efforts very much. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Regarding the superiority of copies over summaries there are > several > issues: > > 1. Some topics stretch over several paragraphs and any given > paragraph > doesn't contain a particularly discussion-worthy point. So the > solution > is either a short summary or long email. I'm not a good typist, so > this can pose some difficulties. > > 2. Copywrite issues. I don't know if we could get away with typing > out all 838 pages. > > 3. I think people who have the book have to lead the way in > discussions. > If there is some point that needs a direct quote, they could make > it. > > 4. Everyone who is interested in this study program should buy the > book. > > 5. No one is discussing either way. Any ideas on how to increase > participation? > > Larry 24074 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Jon: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks for this. I agree that jhana is a very > complex subject. > However, I think the thrust of Larry's thread has > been concentration > as a proximate cause of insight, rather than the > development of > mundane jhana, which is why I was happy not to > venture into that area > ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- Glad to hear about you! I have got as matter of fact that before the attainment of Jhana, one must manage to get a good catch on Vipassana and Samatha, with the conscience of the Path and The Fruits or, as Nina says, folllowing your Parami´s Accumulations. Since she is taking on the Accumulations side, I am getting the issues of Jhana not as a practitioner, but as a reader of texts, you see. I am very busy for now... In September I will go to the Air Force´s Academy at Minas Gerais to get - finally! - my military rank ( Lieutennant ) and there´s a lot to get fitted on before my depart. If I don´t reply you, Larry, Mike, Sarah, Jon and others at good time, I do sincerelly apologize!!!!! > > I admire your enthusiasm for the lesser-read parts > of the Tipitaka. > Keep it up! As I´ve said, standing at the accumulations` shore, my interests on ultimate Jhanas is a matter to take on what the texts said about it.... Metta, Ícaro > Jon > > --- icaro franca wrote: > > Dear Jon: > > > Jon, a entire discussion group about Jhana > wouldn´t > > to be sufficient to clarify some aspects... if you > > keep your concentration - or adjust your mind > > aggregates to a Kusala mode ( it´s only a > > opinion...whatever gets it first), you´ll reach an > > eventually 'ecstatic concentration' that is > acheived > > and becomes enwrapt in Jhana - Appana Samadhi - > > enjoying calm and serenity of one-pointedness ( > > samatha - tranquility). The mental thought > process of > > Appana Samadhi runs as follows ( I am only > checkin´ > > out my own lists): > > > > First Bhavanga,then Manodvaravajjana, > Parikamma, > > Upaccara, Anuloma, Gotrabha, Appana. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24075 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Dear Nina: Nina: "P.S. to Icaro: > You could look at Abhidhammatta Sangaha pali, Ch > III, pakinnaka sanghaho, > under hetu sangaho:" ---------------------------------------------- (Where is it...ah! Here!) The Tika-co-Pali (Abhidhammatta Sangaha pali), pakinakaparicchedo,Hetusangaho... --------------------------------------------------- Nina: "lobho doso ca moho hetuu akusala tayo > lobha, dosa and moha are three akusala roots" ------------------------------------------------ At my version (Myanmar´s) I am reading ( 16th stanza, beginning with "16. Lobho doso ca moho ca,..." Hetu akusala tayo. Alobhadosamoho ca, Kusalabyakata tatha. Nina, my very first impression when I begun to read the Dhammasangani and the Abhidhamma was " well, that´s the way the Japanese haikais are made!" Dear Nina, in September I am departing to the Air Force´s Academy at Minas Gerais, to get finally my military rank! Before that , there´s a lot of things to be put on orderly. So, if I don´t reply your posts at good time, please forgive me!!!!!! Very thanks for your EXCELENT works! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24076 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:15am Subject: FW: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:26:11 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B disvaava -- ``aya.m raahulo mayha.m atrajo hutvaa mama pacchato aagacchanto After the Buddha had seen this, he considered: ³Rahula who is my son, walks behind me, `aha.m sobhaami,mayha.m va.n.naayatana.m pasanna'nti thinking, ŒI am handsome, my complexion is fair¹, attabhaava.m nissaaya gehassitachandaraaga.m uppaadeti, and worldly desire because of his bodily appearance has arisen in him. atitthe pakkhando uppatha.m pa.tipanno agocare carati, He rejoices in what is unsuitable, he is following the wrong way and is erring. disaamuu.lhaaddhiko viya agantabba.m disa.m gacchati. Just like someone who is exceedingly led astray, he goes into the wrong direction where he should not go. aya.m kho panassa kileso abbhantare va.d.dhanto Since his defilements are increasing within him, attatthampi yathaabhuuta.m passitu.m na dassati, paratthampi, ubhayatthampi. he does not see as it truly is his own benefit, the benefit of someone else nor the benefit of both himself and someone else. tato nirayepi pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhaapessati, tiracchaanayoniyampi, Therefore, this will take him to rebirth in a hell plane, in the animal world, pettivisayepi, asurakaayepi, sambaadhepi maatukucchisminti in the ghost plane, or in the confined condition of the mother¹s womb. anamatagge sa.msaarava.t.te paripaatessati. It will make him fall down in the cycle of birth and death, without beginning or end. English: After the Buddha had seen this, he considered: ³Rahula who is my son, walks behind me, thinking, ŒI am handsome, my complexion is fair¹, and worldly desire because of his bodily appearance has arisen in him. He rejoices in what is unsuitable, he is following the wrong way and is erring. Just like someone who is exceedingly led astray, he goes into the wrong direction where he should not go. Since his defilements are increasing within him, he does not see as it truly is his own benefit, the benefit of someone else nor the benefit of both himself and someone else. Therefore, this will take him to rebirth in a hell plane, in the animal world, in the ghost plane, or in the confined condition of the mother¹s womb. It will make him fall down in the cycle of birth and death, without beginning or end. ******* Nina. 24077 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga. Dear Icaro, op 10-08-2003 21:16 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Sublime Resultant > Jhanas arise with no door, and Bhavangacitta does not > arise within a process but in between processes. N: May I add something? The cittas which perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga (throughout life) and cuti, dying, do not experience an object through a doorway, they are door- freed. They are the same type of citta throughout life and all of them experience the object experienced during the last javana-cittas of the previous life. There are nineteen types of vipaka citta which are door-freed, and you have learnt them by the Abhidhammattasangaha. (See also, for some details, my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 11). Among them are indeed jhana vipakacittas as you say. They arise in rupa-brahmaplanes and arupa brahma planes, and in those planes they perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga throughout life in that plane, in between processes, and cuti. Thus, when we speak of bhavangacitta, it denotes a function, and we have to keep in mind that bhavangacitta can be of nineteen different types. The function of bhavanga is keeping the continuity in the life of an individual. Nina. 24078 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Here is an interesting Sutta with a different slant on living alone.. Here is the URL, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn21-010.html And here is the poem that summarizes the Sutta....hope this aspect is not a repeat of what has been posted before....Ray That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One Well-gone further said this: "All-conquering, all-knowing, intelligent; with regard to all things, unadhering; all-abandoning, released in the ending of craving: him I call a man who lives alone." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > Hi Victor, (Kom & Nori), > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > > > > However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in > > several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a conflict: > > if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? > > > > Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of > > dukkha. > >..... > > I was interested to follow up on a couple of your references below: > > V: > * > > > > Train in solitude > > & the contemplative's task, > > Solitude > > is called > > sagacity. > > Alone, you truly delight > > & shine in the ten directions. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- > > 11.html > > S: To quote a little bit more from the same source: > > In one who has no attachment -- > the monk who has cut the stream, > abandoning what is > & isn't a duty -- > no fever is found. > > I'll explain to you > sagacity: be like a razor's edge. > Pressing tongue against palate, > restrain your stomach. > Neither be lazy in mind, > nor have many thoughts. > Be committed to taintlessness, > independent, > having the holy life as your aim. > Train in solitude > & the contemplative's task, > Solitude > is called > sagacity. > Alone, you truly delight > ***** > Does it mean here that he should physically live alone or refer to the > giving up of attachment? Earlier we read about his hving abandoned desire > and lust and how he should behave when he visits a village on his alms > round. "he should not rejoice at an invitation or a present from the > village"...."he should not utter a word with an ulterior motive". Whether > he receives anything or not, it's fine and he returns to the same tree. > > Finally, after the verse you quote, at the end we read (I'm using Norman's > PTS transl): > > "Know this by the streams [which flow] in clefts and crevices. [Rivers in] > small channels move noisily; the great oceans move in silence. > What is not full makes a noise. What is full is indeed silent. A fool > is like a half-filled pot; a wise man is like a full pool." > > I read this sutta as urging the abandoning of 'desire and lust'. "He > should cross over hell". Isn't this the sense of solitude or the full pool > that is being referred to? > > > > > I followed up on the following verse because I found the translation so > delightful and this is what interested me in your post;-) > > > > > One alone is like Brahma, > > two, like devas, > > three, like a village, > > more than that: > > a hullabaloo. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/thag03.html# > > Mrs R-D's transl for the same verse is not as colourful: > > "Alone a man is even as Brahma. > And as angels if he have one mate. > Like to a village is a group of three. > Like to a noisy crowd if more there be." > > In this case, definitely Yasoja is praising solitude, living alone in the > forest. Should we follow his example? When he uttered this verse, he had > acquired the six abhinna (supernormal knowledges including arahantship. > > If we went to live in the forest alone, thinking that we would then also > develop the same wisdom, it would be wrong I think. > > I think we have to read and consider these passages carefully and in > context and according to what we've read elsewhere as well. > > Look forward to more comments and quotes;-) > > Metta, > > Sarh > ===== 24079 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Ray, > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Hendrickson [mailto:rhendrickson1@e...] > > Here is an interesting Sutta with a different slant on living alone.. > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > Well-gone further > said this: > > "All-conquering, > all-knowing, intelligent; > with regard to all things, > unadhering; > all-abandoning, > released in the ending of craving: > him I call > a man who lives > alone." > This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of panna) even without living by themselves. kom 24080 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 4 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 4. Suppose there were three people, a child without discretion, a villager, and a money-changer, who saw a heap of coins lying on a money changer,s counter. The child without discretion knows merely that the coins are figured and ornamented, long, square, or round; he does not know that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment. And the villager knows that they are figured and ornamented, etc., and that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment; but he does not know such distinctions as 'This one is genuine, this one is false, this is half-value'. The money-changer knows all those kinds, and he does so by looking at the coins, and by listening to the sound of it when struck, and by smelling its smell, tasting its taste, and weighing it in his hand, and he knows that it was made in a certain village or town or city or on a certain mountain or by the banks of a certain river,and that it was made by a certain master. And this may be understood as an illustration. 24081 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 4 "And this may be understood as an illustration." L: An illustration of the three modes of knowing: perception (sanna), consciousness (vinnana), and understanding (panna). 24082 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 5 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, after apprehending mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, reaching the manifestation of the path. 24083 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:33pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 6 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 6. However, it [understanding] is not always to be found where perception and consciousess are. (2) But when it is, it is not disconnected from those states. And because it cannot be taken as disconnected thus 'This is perception, this is consciousness, this is understanding', its difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable Nagasena said 'A difficult thing, O King, has been done by the Blessed One. --What, venerable Nagasena, is the difficult thing that has been done by the Blessed One? --The difficult thing, O King, done by the Blessed One was the defining of the immterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: This is contact, this is feeling, this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness' (Miln. 87). (2) 'In arisings of consciousness with two root-causes [i.e. with non-greed and non-hate but without non-delusion], or without root-cause, understanding does not occur' (Pm. 432). 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness so perception and consciousness are not invariable inseparably from understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from pleasure so understanding is inseparable invariably from perception and consciousness' (Pm. 432). 24084 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Dear Icaro, Congratulations on your new posting. Looking forward to a few years from now when you tell us you have been made general:) Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca < > > Dear Nina, in September I am departing to the Air > Force´s Academy at Minas Gerais, to get finally my > military rank! Before that , there´s a lot of things > to be put on orderly. So, if I don´t reply your posts > at good time, please forgive me!!!!!! > > Very thanks for your EXCELENT works! > > Metta, Ícaro > 24085 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 6 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness so perception and consciousness are not invariable inseparably from understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from pleasure so understanding is inseparable invariably from perception and consciousness' (Pm. 432). Larry: I think there is a typo in the text. Read "perception and consciousness are not invariably inseparable from understanding". 24086 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness --- a solution! Dear Sarah, Dump your Mac and get a machine with Windows :) Wishing you the best (as always), Dan > My problem is fonts (or lack of) for Mac computers. I go to the site that > Icaro recommended for DhammasanganiPali and am confronted with all the > usual weird and wonderful symbols with an occasional letter. The fonts > don't work, so I'm left reading the symbols trying to make some sense. > Same for the suttas - trying to make out `sukkhavihara' for Mike in the > jigsaw puzzle of symbols.... Likewise, the CDRom everyone talks about from > the Vipassana Institute doesn't work for Macs and I've never been able to > access the Foundation website yet. > > (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very simple > for me to follow). 24087 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:03pm Subject: Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) hi, I am considering going to the vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Massachusetts to learn techniques taught by S. N. Goenka. I am wondering if anyone has gone to that specific retreat and has any opinions on it? Also, if anyone knows which is the best retreat to go to (east coast) or knows of any websites that teaches it written? Is this the best form of meditation ? Thank you all for your valuable comments on past posts. They have helped me greatly. with metta, nori 24088 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/11/03 11:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi, > > I am considering going to the vipassana retreat in Shelburne, > Massachusetts to learn techniques taught by S. N. Goenka. > > I am wondering if anyone has gone to that specific retreat and has > any opinions on it? > > Also, if anyone knows which is the best retreat to go to (east coast) > or knows of any websites that teaches it written? > > Is this the best form of meditation ? > > Thank you all for your valuable comments on past posts. They have > helped me greatly. > > > with metta, > nori > > ============================ A number of years back I went to a 10-day Goenka retreat at Shelburne Falls. It was wonderful, and it made a major favorable impact on my life. I recommend it highly and without reservation. I don't know whether it is "the best form of meditation," but it is excellent. In my opinion, you would not be making a mistake in attending. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Icaro, Do not answer, I understand. Just curious, what will be your work when you are a Lieutenant? Shall we not hear from you anymore or is this only temporary? Maybe you can write a Dhamma diary. Now I just want to add something about jhana. op 11-08-2003 14:33 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > I have got as matter of fact that before the > attainment of Jhana, one must manage to get a good > catch on Vipassana and Samatha, with the conscience of > the Path and The Fruits or, as Nina says, folllowing > your Parami?s Accumulations. N: When one lives in the right conditions and has accumulated skill one can attain mundane jhana, no need for vipassana in order to attain jhana. It is different in the case of lokuttara jhana. Some people could develop jhana and vipassana and attain enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhanafactors of the different stages of jhana. That is why, as you know from Abh Sangaha, cittas are also counted as 121. Here lokuttara jhanacittas are included. Nina. 24090 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness --- a solution! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Dump your Mac and get a machine with Windows :) > > Wishing you the best (as always), > > Dan Well said, Dan. ;) Robert 24091 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness --- a solution! Hi Dan & RobertK, Good to see you both around, even if you’re failing my ‘computer silliness’ test.... --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Dump your Mac and get a machine with Windows :) .... I agree this sounds logical, but remember: S: > > (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very > simple > > for me to follow). .... It fails the ‘very simple for me to follow’ stipulation, because: a) cost considerations - I mean we might be talking about a trip to Burma, India or both;-( b) major complications for my business - I have all my client, student and other data for the last 20yrs kept on ‘appleworks’, the original Apple data system. Also I have a large amount of Apple educational hardware and software programs and so on which the kids use. c) kitchen table syndrome - ask Mike, he understands the difficulties people like Nina and I have when it comes to modern technology and making any changes. He asked me to show him something on the computer at the Foundation and I just froze, unable to work out even how to turn it on;-( d) attachment - need I say more?? Never simple;-( e) the inevitable hassles for Jon, trying to take me in baby steps through the process. To give you an idea of just how delinquent I am in this area, I found out yesterday for the first time (thx to Christine's prompt) where the square brackets are[ ! ] - somehow I’d never found them before, in spite of writing dissertations and so on on a similar computer nearly 20yrs ago - expect them to pop up in every post from now on! f) is there any guarantee that the moment I made the switch, just to access these sites, that they (the sites) wouldn’t come to their senses and produce Mac-friendly fonts ;-( ***** Thanks anyway for your kind wishes and also to Jim for your suggestions. I may try Jim’s one rainy day.I understand it (in theory). If I thought I’d just diligently stick to studying the Dhammasangani like you or Icaro, I would jump a little quicker, but I like to dip here, there and everywhere.... Meanwhile I’ll just stick to what I’m used to, until someone comes up with a really simple solution: 1. (Ka) het? dhamm±. (Kha) na het? dhamm±. 2. (Ka) sahetuk± dhamm±. (Kha) ahetuk± dhamm±. 3. (Ka) hetusampayutt± dhamm±. (Kha) hetuvippayutt± dhamm±. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, I loved your poem....[%&*] ============================= 24092 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 0:35am Subject: Egypt Diary: Attachment Dear Friends: As I am about to embark on my trans-continental adventure, I have had to say good bye to all of those people who are close to me. It has not been easy to do so, really not as easy as I thought it might be. I have had to deal with a range of emotions from sadness to guilt… mainly guilt. I feel bad leaving the people behind who have come to count on me being around. This phase of my journey has made me reflect on attachment. In Buddhism attachment is the thing that we all should try to avoid. In the Brahmajala Sutta: The Supreme Net, there is a description of holy men who will go to great lengths, even practically lying, in order to avoid attachment, "What is the second way? Here an ascetic or Brahmin does not in truth know whether a thing is good or bad. He thinks: "I might declare: `That is good', or `That is bad', and I might feel desire or lust or hatred or aversion. If I felt desire, lust, hatred, or aversion, that would be attachment on my part. If I felt attachment, that would distress me, and if I were distressed, that would be a hindrance to me' Thus, fearing attachment, abhorring attachment, he resorts to evasive statements….This is the second case." Of course this is not the way to avoid attachment because the attachment is still there…lying doesn`t solve anything. Even so, attachment is bad and yet it is one of the most difficult things to break. I am reminded of the time when the Buddha had to leave his family to go out and become a monk, before he was enlightened. Of course I am not comparing myself to the Buddha and I am not becoming a monk (at least not this time ;-), but the Buddha had to encounter the same type of difficulties I am faced with presently. There are actually two stories about his leaving his home and one states that he sneaks away in the middle of the night and one states that he calmly says goodbye to his parents even though they have tears on their faces. I am not sure which story is true, I lean toward the tears one, but they both illustrate that breaking those ties of attachment is not an easy thing to do, but it is a necessary thing. It is the first and essential step on the road of self-discovery. I hope that my journey will make the tears I leave behind worth it. Take care, James 24093 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > After the Buddha had seen this, he considered: 3Rahula who is my son, > walks > behind me, thinking, ŒI am handsome, my complexion is fair1, > and worldly desire because of his bodily appearance has arisen in him. > He rejoices in what is unsuitable, he is following the wrong way and is > erring. > Just like someone who is exceedingly led astray, he goes into the wrong > direction where he should not go. “disaamuu.lhaaddhiko viya agantabba.m disa.m gacchati.” > Since his defilements are increasing within him, he does not see as it > truly > is his own benefit, the benefit of someone else nor the benefit of both > himself and someone else. > Therefore, this will take him to rebirth in a hell plane, in the animal > world, > in the ghost plane, or in the confined condition of the mother1s womb. > It will make him fall down in the cycle of birth and death, without > beginning or end. ..... This is such a sobering reminder - even Rahula at this point, ordained, following in the Buddha's footsteps, having heard other sermons, is still so very close to being 'led astray' or 'following the wrong way'. A sobering reminder of where our defilements can take us at any time until panna is developed enough to have eradicated all wrong views and idea of self. *** I also enjoyed the descriptions of all the pageantry and colour. We have a kind of coral tree here in Hong Kong. I wonder if it's the same? I used to have an idea of the Bodhisatta leaving the palace in the dark and all alone. In fact he left during the full-moon, 'throwing aside' the 'empire' 'with indifference as though it were a blob of spittle'. Reading now from the Comy to the Buddhavamsa (Clarifier of Sweet Meaning), because it reminded me of the earlier passage from the comy to the sutta, we read: "And making Kanthaka [the horse] face towards the way to be travelled, he set forth in great pomp and magnificent splendour. then as the Bodhisatta was going along devataas in front of him, sixty hundred thousand torches, likewise behind him, sixty hundred thousand on his right side, likewise on his left side. More devataas, surrounding him, went along reverencing him with fragrant blossoms, roots, wreaths, sandalwood and scented powders and beautiful flags and banners. And countless were the deva-like songs and the musical instruments they played." Hardly a 'solitary' figure as we usually understand the word! Metta and thanks for the good reminders in the sutta and comy. Sarah ===== 24094 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Attachment Hi James (& Dan), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Dear Friends: > > As I am about to embark on my trans-continental adventure, I have had > to say good bye to all of those people who are close to me. It has > not been easy to do so, really not as easy as I thought it might be. Very nice and I look forward to reading many more .... very sincere and useful reflection, I think. Thanks also to Nina for also encouraging the diary format. Metta and bon voyage too. Also to Dan and family about to make a move as well, I think. [Dan, how about some diary entries from you too?? - no one would ever fall asleep on DSG with the two of you sending in your reflections and observations;-)] Sarah ====== 24095 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:35am Subject: Icaro's diary and lists Hi L.Icaro (& Nina), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Icaro, > Do not answer, I understand. .... Well, actually I'd understand better if you DO answer;-) Just brief answers (or long ones), when you can find a little time (like every day;-)) ... > Just curious, what will be your work when you are a Lieutenant? Shall we > not > hear from you anymore or is this only temporary? Maybe you can write a > Dhamma diary. .... Yes, that would be another colourful one. You've proved yourself to be a great asset here and I hope that both your work goes well and also your postings to DSG;-) Salute Sarah ===== 24096 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi KenO;-), (Mike & All), Sooo nice to hear from you hear again;-) ;-) I hope you and your family are well. Are you still in Brunei? --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi mike > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > then the answer lies there. .... I think this is exactly right. When people hear that we talk about cittas, cetasikas and rupas here, they think it is just an intellectual exercise. However, gradually, when there are brief moments of awareness and a flicker of understanding, it becomes clear that it’s not just an intellectual exercise and whilst we use concepts to discuss here, these concepts are representing realities which can be directly experienced. When we reflect on stages of insight or higher knowledges, it is bound to be conceptual and largely incomprehensible for us as a result. I relly hesitate to even post on this topic. But just as namas and rupas can be directly known and distinguished, even though this may seem like an impossible riddle when we hear about it initially, so too can the conditioned nature of these realities and the truth that these phenomena arise in groups such as rupas arising in kalapas or cetasikas arising together and with cittas. As panna develops, it becomes deeper. As Nina stressed the key lies in the fact there is not just one doorway and one series of javana cittas, but many. As a result, groups can be known directly, but still only one reality is appearing at a time, as its group is arising and falling away. Perhaps we can consider groups as ‘aspects’ of realities or about realities to be known?? It’s difficult for me to comprehend and perhaps the main value is in helping us to see how little direct understanding has been developed so far. Do we mind? Lobha again. In CMA, we read about “matter to be comprehended by insight (sammasanaruupa) because they are to be made the objects of insight contemplation by way of the three characteristics [i.e anicca, dukkha, anatta]” Icaro’s keen interest and qus on Abhidhamma with his humourous touch and kindness reminded me initially of your old posts, Ken O. (easier to catch his photo though;-)) Glad to know you’re around. Metta, Sarah ====== 24097 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Nina: Nina: "Just curious, what will be your work when you are a > Lieutenant? Shall we not > hear from you anymore or is this only temporary?" ------------------------------------------------ I will be at Air Force´s Academy for 13 weeks, after that I am coming back to Rio to fulfil my assignment as military officer. As Lieutennant-Engineer (with Msc on Control Systems and Automation) perhaps I will get duties at avionics maintenance and so on. ---------------------------------------------------- > Maybe you can write a > Dhamma diary. --------------------------------------------------- At the first forty days - Quarantine! - it will be very difficult. I hope to survive the Boot Camp !!!!! ------------------------------------------------- N:" When one lives in the right conditions and has > accumulated skill one can > attain mundane jhana, no need for vipassana in order > to attain jhana. It is > different in the case of lokuttara jhana. Some > people could develop jhana > and vipassana and attain enlightenment with > lokuttara cittas accompanied by > jhanafactors of the different stages of jhana. That > is why, as you know from > Abh Sangaha, cittas are also counted as 121." ---------------------------------------------------- Since you´ve mentioned it... 121 Types of Consciousness, with five types of Sotapatti Path-consciousness, Sakadagami Path-consciousness, Anagami Path-consciousness and Arahatta Path-consciousness. That forms the five jhana consciousness plus the Path consciousness. The same for the Fruit-consciousness... and so on! --------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Here > lokuttara jhanacittas are > included. > Nina." ------------------------------------------------- Exact !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24098 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. dear rjkjp1 rjkjp1: "Congratulations on your new posting. Looking forward > to a few years > from now when you tell us you have been made > general:)" ----------------------------------------------------- Oh mine... Rob, I must first (and last, and always) manage to survive the Boot Camp !!!!!!!!!!!! After that, I will try to post some photo of mine with the Air Force Uniform... Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24099 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's diary and lists Dear Sarah: Sarah: "Well, actually I'd understand better if you DO > answer;-) Just brief > answers (or long ones), when you can find a little > time (like every > day;-))" ----------------------------------------------------- At my case, only after the military quarantine I will be able to exchange posts. And a Dhamma Diary of mine is a good idea !!! I can begin with 1. Kusala Dhamma Akusala Dhamma Abhyakta Dhamma or with 1. Katame dhamma kusala? Yasmim samaye kamavacara kusalam cittam uppannam hoti somanassasahagatam... etc... Sarah, The Dhammasangani is a Supermarket of good thoughts and feelings that I dare to recommend for everyone! ------------------------------------------------ Sarah: "Yes, that would be another colourful one. You've > proved yourself to be a > great asset here and I hope that both your work goes > well and also your > postings to DSG;-)" I will try to post a photo of mine with the blue uniform!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24100 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, Thx for all your work with the Vism extracts and summary. I’m sure many people like myself read carefully and consider. I like to also take a look when Jon adds the Pali and when Nina and Jim add comments from the Tika. Slowly and patiently. No response doesn’t mean we’ve all gone to sleep. I know that for Nina and Jim there is a lot of work involved for a start, even when the paragraph may not seem to have a lot of meat. As Jon said, B.Bodhi clarified that the copyright is not an issue in these discussions. If you lose the posts on key points such as ‘penetration’ or ‘endeavouring’, some of these are being put under a new heading of ‘Vism....’ in U.P. There’s always some delay however. Back to your comments here to me: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > So I take it you don't think concentration plays a particularly > important role in understanding. Is that correct? If so, I think I would > have to disagree, but can't see clearly exactly what concentration > does. This is no doubt due to my own poor concentration. .... I think it plays an important role. It focuses or is one-pointed with regard to its object. In the case of understanding (as in satipatthana), the object is a nama or rupa. Without concentration, panna couldn’t know the object, sati couldn’t be aware of it and so on. However, as concentration arises with every citta, including all akusala cittas, emphasising or trying to develop concentration without any understanding is useless in this regard and merely encourages clinging to the self and to particular results so often, as I see it. ..... >I notice in the > simile at Vism. XIV 4 the money changer experiences the coins with all 5 > physical senses (except hearing). Maybe this is an example of > one-pointedness in the sense of one object for several consciousness > processes. Another example would be considering impermanence over and > over again from different perspectives. Some people eventually "get it" > but most never do. Maybe we could improve the prompt. ..... Whereas sanna (perception) merely marks the object at each moment and ekaggata (concentration) is one-pointed on the object, it is panna (understanding), that like the money-changer, really discerns the object just as it is experienced by the citta (consciousness). As I said, I don’t see it to be of any intrinsic value for the development of insight whether one is conventionally speaking ‘concentrated’ or not or whether the same object appears to be perceived frequently or continuously or not. If we have this idea, it seems to me that we limit or restrict the field of satipatthana with an idea of self again. .... > > You also wrote that you thought ADS related to desire and interest. > Could you expand on this a little? I could see how poor concentration > could be due to lack of focused (concentrated) desire or due to desire > to experience something other than what is happening. Do you think > desire could be used to prompt sammasamadhi as a foundation for insight? ..... To your last question, usually ‘no’, taking desire as being lobha, though indirectly by natural decisive support condition, lobha may be a prompt for wholesome states to arise. After the lobha has arisen, it may even be the object of sati or wise reflection. This is why accumulations are so complicated. I think I’d rather stick to concentration in general here than particular usually-complex disorders. I was merely stressing that we may have a label such as ADS in one situation and show quite different labels in other situations. After all, the hats change continuously, but ekaggata arises arise with each regardless. Again, perhaps it’s back to our purpose: whether it’s to increase our conventional concentration, perform better in our studies or at work or whether it’s to develop insight (vipassana) into the nature of realities. Thx again for all your encouragement to everyone. Keep prodding Kom and all.....now Ken H must be catching some good waves - hope he hasn’t been dumped;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24101 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 5 Larry Thanks very much for continuing with the text. I find this set of similes very helpful. The 3 kinds of dhamma experience/perceive the object at increasingly deeper levels. Thus although sanna's experience/perception of the object is not incorrect, it is not complete either. I will resume posting the Pali together with each extract for those who like to have both together on the same page. Thanks again. Jon PS I add below the passage you have quoted a further short passage of text that comes after it (a separate paragraph, so easily overlooked). --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV > > 5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, > because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as > blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, > because > it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it > extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. > Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, > after > apprehending mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the > penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, > reaching the manifestation of the path. That is why this act of understanding should be understood as 'knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing'. For that is what the words 'it is understanding in the sense of act of understanding' refer to. 24102 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:09am Subject: Kaeng Kajan Tapes Friends, I've received the three tapes from Kaeng Kajan and have been listening to them while I work. Nice to hear familiar voices, reminds me of Sundays at the foundation. Anumodanaa to all involved (and thanks!). mike 24103 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding > Perhaps we can say that 'sukha vihaara' refers to pleasant abiding for > those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan > disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala > samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. Thanks, this is about the way I had it figured. Thanks especially for all the extra research and all that typing with your creaky elbows--hope the new chair-arms are helping. mike 24104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:58am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 3 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 3. kena.t.thena pa~n~naati pajaanana.t.thena pa~n~naa. kimida.m pajaanana.m naama? sa~njaananavijaananaakaaravisi.t.tha.m naanappakaarato jaanana.m. sa~n~naavi~n~naa.napa~n~naana.m hi samaanepi jaananabhaave, sa~n~naa ``niila.m piitaka''nti aaramma.nasa~njaananamattameva hoti. ``anicca.m dukkhamanattaa''ti lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetu.m na sakkoti. vi~n~naa.na.m ``niila.m piitaka''nti aaramma.na~nca jaanaati, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapeti. ussakkitvaa pana maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m na sakkoti. pa~n~naa vuttanayavasena aaramma.na~nca jaanaati, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapeti, ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava~nca paapeti. 24105 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: [dsg] Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) > I am considering going to the vipassana retreat in Shelburne, > Massachusetts to learn techniques taught by S. N. Goenka. I haven't done a Goenka retreat and can't advise you one way or the other. I have done quite a bit of meditation, though, (Zen and "Vipassana") and hope that, whatever you do, you'll bear a couple of things in mind: (1) It's fairly easy for some people to cultivate pleasant states that are not kusala and mistake them for kusala because they relieve unpleasant feeling (and arise with pleasant or neutral feeling) for a while. (2) The best way, in my opinion, to prevent this is to study and reflect on the pariyatti very, very closely and compare the details with your own experience. My own tendency is to continually replace unpleasant akusala with pleasant akusala, mistaking this for the replacing of akusala with kusala in jhaana cultivation as in the simile of the peg in Majjhima Nikaya 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta The Relaxation of Thoughts http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html It's an easy habit to cultivate and a hard one to break. The conditions for real, liberating insight are rare and complex, while those for pleasant akusala and self-delusion are all to common and simple. Be careful! Just my two cents' worth, mike 24106 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:04am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 4 4. Suppose there were three people, a child without discretion, a villager, and a money-changer, who saw a heap of coins lying on a money-changer's counter. The child without discretion knows merely that the coins are figured and ornamented, long, square, or round; he does not know that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment. And the villager knows that they are figured and ornamented, etc., and that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment; but he does not know such distinctions as 'This one is genuine, this is false, this is half-value'. The money-changer knows all those kinds, and he does so by looking at the coin, and by listening to the sound of it when struck, and by smelling its smell, tasting its taste, and weighing it in his hand, and he knows that it was made in a certain village or town or city or on a certain mountain or by a certain master. And this may be understood as an illustration. 4. yathaa hi hera~n~nikaphalake .thapita.m kahaapa.naraasi.m eko ajaatabuddhidaarako, eko gaamikapuriso, eko hera~n~nikoti tiisu janesu passamaanesu ajaatabuddhidaarako kahaapa.naana.m cittavicittadiighacaturassaparima.n.dalabhaavamattameva jaanaati, ``ida.m manussaana.m upabhogaparibhoga.m ratanasammata''nti na jaanaati. gaamikapuriso cittavicittaadibhaava.m jaanaati, ``ida.m manussaana.m upabhogaparibhoga.m ratanasammata''nti ca. ``aya.m cheko, aya.m kuu.to, aya.m addhasaaro''ti ima.m pana vibhaaga.m na jaanaati. hera~n~niko sabbepi te pakaare jaanaati, jaananto ca kahaapa.na.m oloketvaapi jaanaati, aako.titassa sadda.m sutvaapi, gandha.m ghaayitvaapi, rasa.m saayitvaapi, hatthena dhaarayitvaapi, asukasmi.m naama gaame vaa nigame vaa nagare vaa pabbate vaa nadiitiire vaa katotipi, asukaacariyena katotipi jaanaati, eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m. 24107 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:07am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 5 5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, after apprehending mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, reaching the manifestation of the path. That is why this act of understanding should be understood as 'knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing'. For that is what the words 'it is understanding in the sense of act of understanding' refer to. 5. sa~n~naa hi ajaatabuddhino daarakassa kahaapa.nadassana.m viya hoti, niilaadivasena aaramma.nassa upa.t.thaanaakaaramattagaha.nato. vi~n~naa.na.m gaamikassa purisassa kahaapa.nadassanamiva hoti, niilaadivasena aaramma.naakaaragaha.nato, uddha.mpi ca lakkha.napa.tivedhasampaapanato. pa~n~naa hera~n~nikassa kahaapa.nadassanamiva hoti, niilaadivasena aaramma.naakaara.m gahetvaa, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapetvaa, tato uddhampi maggapaatubhaavapaapanato. tasmaa yadeta.m sa~njaananavijaananaakaaravisi.t.tha.m naanappakaarato jaanana.m. ida.m pajaanananti veditabba.m. ida.m sandhaaya hi eta.m vutta.m ``pajaanana.t.thena pa~n~naa''ti. 24108 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:13am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 6 6. However, it [understanding] is not always to be found where perception and consciousness are.(2) But when it is, it is not disconnected from those states. And because it cannot be taken as disconnected thus, 'This is perception, this is consciousness, this is understanding', its difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable Nagasena said 'A difficult thing, O King, has been done by the Blessed One. --What, venerable Nagasena, is the difficult thing that has been done by the Blessed One? --The difficult thing, O King, done by the Blessed One was the defining of the immaterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: "This is contact, this is feeling, this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness"' (Miln. 87). (2) 'In arisings of consciousness with two root-causes [i.e. with non-greed and non-hate but without non-delusion], or without root-cause, understanding does not occur' (Pm. 432). 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness, so perception and consciousness are not invariably inseparable from understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from pleasure so understanding is invariably inseparable from perception and consciousness' (Pm. 432). 6. saa panesaa yattha sa~n~naavi~n~naa.naani, na tattha eka.msena hoti. yadaa pana hoti, tadaa avinibbhuttaa tehi dhammehi ``aya.m sa~n~naa, ida.m vi~n~naa.na.m, aya.m pa~n~naa''ti vinibbhujjitvaa alabbhaneyyanaanattaa sukhumaa duddasaa. tenaaha aayasmaa naagaseno ``dukkara.m mahaaraaja bhagavataa kata''nti. ki.m bhante naagasena bhagavataa dukkara.m katanti. ``dukkara.m mahaaraaja bhagavataa kata.m ya.m aruupiina.m cittacetasikaana.m dhammaana.m ekaaramma.ne pavattamaanaana.m vavatthaana.m akkhaata.m aya.m phasso, aya.m vedanaa, aya.m sa~n~naa, aya.m cetanaa, ida.m citta''nti (mi0 pa0 2.7.16). 24109 From: suzakico Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 0:14pm Subject: Thank you, Nina!!! -2 Here is the second batch. * Note: If there is any comment, please do so freely. But as for my comment to the comments, I feel I should withhold it from here. The idea has been to clarify things, but I do not think I should provide my views in this group unless I am asked. Hope there is anything that can be gained or clarified for all. May all beings be happy! Kio == The glimpse of dhamma #23321 Dear Kio and all, Kio asked: In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Nina: My time with A. Sujin 3. At breakfast I listened to A. Sujin's radio program and heard time and again the terms denoting the different cittas arising in sense- door processes and mind-door processes. ((I take this is intended to help honing the awareness to detect what is happening by being mindful. Certainly a way of practicing detached observation. However, this is not the naming game.)) Thai and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming used to these terms does not mean experiencing all the different cittas. A. Sujin explained that intellectual understanding is a foundation for awareness that can arise later on. She stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the details of cittas, of their different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling, akusala cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas and rupas. Indeed, as we read in the suttas, listening, considering are most important conditions for the arising of satipatthana, sati and panna that directly realize characteristics of nama and rupa. ((First, having the intellectual training like this, and later realizing the point upon actual experience may enrich, and anchor the point of learning to enhance the condition for detached observation. So, I take this is one method to get to that state of detachment – which is the main objective as mentioned before. However, as anything else, this approach may have weakness, possibly playing the game of naming and cross referencing their experiences to sutta, etc. Still, this practice may make people to grow as they can exchange the views and experiential learning/wisdom along the way as may be taking place in this dhamma study group.)) ((Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. He then is not as occupied in the problem at hand, having developed this skill to be "objective' like a scientist. Still, once skill is developed, it may be ok to throw away the raft/theory instead of carrying it. I imagine, the master of this skill may be the owner of the skill in his body/unconsciousness. So, it becomes autonomous – like an art.)) We begin to recognize attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, in our lives, and this is useful, but we should not take this for awareness. For many years I thought that thinking was awareness. ((I see the point. Learning the state of detachment should bring the wisdom to see the difference. A catch-22 situation. When you experience it, you know it.)) We may think without words, recognize realities very quickly, but, when we are very sincere, there is still an idea of self who does so. It is not panna of satipatthana. I began to know that laughing is conditioned by lobha and this made me feel somewhat uneasy when laughing. ((Uneasy: because her mind was interfering the state of letting go, still. The name of the game is not to do this or do that. Rather, be natural…let go.)) I had an idea of wanting to suppress laughing. Lobha again. A. Sujin explained that we should behave very naturally, and not force ourselves not to laugh. ((Of course)) Just do everything that you are used to doing, but in between right understanding can be developed. ((Yes, the name of the game is effortless effort – nature's work to take place – to bring out the wisdom/compassion.)) We have to know our good moments and our worst moments in a day, she said. I read a sutta where the Buddha spoke to the monks about women and compared a woman to a snake. I did not like that.* A. Sujin answered that this sutta can remind us of our accumulated defilements. If right understanding is not developed, accumulated defilements can cause the arising of many kinds of aksuala, and then we are like a snake. In other words, we should profit from the message contained in a sutta, learning how dangerous akusala is. Moreover, by this sutta the Buddha warned the monks of the danger of getting involved with women. A. Sujin helped me to see the danger of what is accumulated in past lives. We never know how these accumulations can condition cittas at the present. We may do things we did not believe ourselves capable of. When I listened to her lectures in the temple I became sometimes depressed* when I realized how difficult the development of right understanding is. ((*conditioned responses)) Would I ever be able to reach the goal?* But I had no inclinations to look for another way that could hasten the development of right understanding. A. Sujin explained that clinging to progress will not help us at all. When we have more understanding of aeons we will be less inclined to think of progress. Before this life there were aeons of ignorance, and in this life we are fortunate to be able to listen to the teachings and begin to understand the way of development of the eightfold Path. But it has to be a long way before we reach the goal. ((It appears that this is also a conditioned way of seeing….! I would throw such thinking away.)) We can learn to accept that this will take more than one life.* Time and again A. Sujin repeated what the Buddha said in the Exhortation to the Patimokkha: Patience is the greatest ascetism. ((Patience in the sense of not expecting…)) Nina (to be continued). About the Principle way #23352 My Time with A. Sujin 4. Dear Kiyo, I am only taking out one remark from your letter. op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- > samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. My time with A. Sujin. 4 A. Sujin taught me what is kusala and what is akusala by her example. The observing of precepts is not a matter of rules one has to follow. She explained that there is no self who can direct the arising of kusala, that it is sati which conditions refraining from akusala and performing kusala. ((Great force is functioning; rules are to follow: (Jp.) Daiyu Genzen Kisoku o sonzezu)) Since I was in the diplomatic service I went to cocktail parties and took drinks. A. Sujin would never say, don't drink. She would explain that it is sati that makes one refrain from akusala. Gradually I had less inclinations to drinking, and this happened because of conditions. I did not know that killing snakes or insects was akusala. When I was in A. Sujin¹s house, we were having some sweets, and when flies were eating some crumbs on the floor, A. Sujin said, we let them enjoy these too. I had never considered before to give flies something they would enjoy, it was a new idea to me. I learnt more in detail what was kusala, what akusala. I began to refrain from killing insects and snakes. ((kusala: wholesome act driven by compassion and wisdom!!)) She also taught me that it is kusala sila to pay respect to monks, because the monks observe so many rules. She taught me to kneel down and pay respect in the proper way, touching the floor with forehead and hands three times. She taught me the importance of the Vinaya, and she explained that we laypeople should help the monks by our conduct to observe the Vinaya. We should not give money to them, but hand it to the layperson in charge. When we are in conversation with the monks we should not chat on matters not related to Dhamma. Together with her elderly father we visited temples and offered food. We often had lunch with her father in his favoured restaurant where they served finely sliced pork (mu han in Thai). We did not talk on Dhamma very much at such occasions, but I noticed A. Sujin¹s feeling of urgency, never being forgetful of the Dhamma, whatever she was doing. ((Behavior shows…as if from the body.)) I was clinging very much to Dhamma talks, but throughout the years I learnt that we do not need to talk on Dhamma all the time, but that we should reflect on Dhamma and apply Dhamma in our life. A. Sujin is always such an inspiring example of the application of Dhamma. When we read the Visuddhimagga we see the three divisions of sila, concentration and panna. We may think of a specific order. However, A. Sujin explained that this is the order of teaching, that there is not a specific order according to which we should practise. ((I see this more as a cycle as in wheel turning. But what she says sounds pragmatics.)) When we carefully read about sila, we see that all degrees of sila are dealt with, from the lower degrees up to the highest degrees: the eradication of all defilements. Having kindness for flies and abstaining from killing is sila. Being respectful to monks is sila. Being patient in all situations is sila. Satipatthana is sila ((Yes, this is the process oriented view.)): we should remember the text about restraint of the six doors by mindfulness. It is satipatthana which is the condition for abstaining from akusala. As to concentration or calm, this has many degrees. There is calm with each kusala citta. Calm is not a feeling of calm, it means the absence of akusala. When we cling to silence and to being calm, there is lobha, not calm. Panna has to be very keen to know exactly which moment is akusala and which moment of kusala, otherwise we shall not know the characteristic of calm. When there is awareness of nama or rupa there is also true calm at that moment. As panna grows, calm grows as well. The eradication of defilements is the highest degree of calm. A. Sujin often stressed: when there is right awareness of a nama or rupa there is at that moment higher sila, higher calm and higher panna. Nina. (to be continued) == About conditioning Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > are you saying > conditioned thinking is `always' bad, or at times bad? Any comment? N: My time with A. Sujin. 5. A. Sujin helped me to see what is akusala and what is kusala in the situation of daily life. She often said, the teachings are not in the book, they are directed to the practice of everyday life. Also the Abhidhamma is not technical, it helps us to have a more refined and detailed knowledge of different cittas as they occur at this moment. When I said that I had enjoyed reading a beautiful sutta, she answered, It is so sad when we only think of what is in the book, when we do not apply it. I realized that we may cling to what we read instead of seeing it as a reminder to develop understanding. ((Should be used as guideline…To me, Abhidhamma may be compared to a map. We need to walk!)) A. Sujin introduced me to her friends at her house, where they consulted books of the Tipitaka and discussed points of the Dhamma. She explained to me, All we study and discuss is not just for ourselves, it is to be shared with others. This impressed me very much because I knew very little about sharing kusala with others. It had not occurred to me that even studying the teachings is not just for oneself. She would always help me to have more kusala cittas. When we were in a temple and we had things to offer to the monks she would hand the gifts and books to me, asking me to present them. I was glad to have the opportunity to pay respect to the Triple Gem and show my reverence to the monks. In fact she was helping others all the time to have kusala cittas. We visited Khun Kesinee who wanted to print my book Buddhism in Daily Life. Khun Kesinee said, Khun Sujin has given me life. This was so true, because she taught us all a new outlook on life, she taught us how right understanding can be developed in our ordinary daily life. She taught us to develop understanding of all phenomena of life in a natural way. Her daughter Khun Amara wrote The Lives and Psalms of the Buddha's Disciples, inspired by the Thera-therigatha. These are the stories of men and women in the Buddha's time who proved in their daily lives that the Path can be developed and enlightenment be attained. A. Sujin and I were very busy to correct the printing proofs of my book, sometimes at night. When we had not heard anything from the printer and I wondered about this, she just answered, No news. This was a good lesson to leave things to conditions and not to expect anything. Later on I thought many times of these words. It is clinging when we expect things to be the way we like them to be. I was glad to meet many of her friends and take part in their life of giving and sharing. We went to temples together with A. Sujin, presenting dana, or attending cremation ceremonies. On Sunday I drove A. Sujin to the temple where she gave lectures on satipatthana and afterwards we sat outside the temple where people asked her more questions about awareness in daily life. Her lectures were put on tape for a radio program. In the course of years the radio stations which sent out her program expanded all over Thailand and to neighbouring countries. I accompanied A. Sujin to different places where people had invited her for a lecture. People were wondering whether there can be awareness of nama and rupa while driving a car. The answer was that it is just the same as being at home, it is normal life. Seeing, thinking or hardness appear time and again. When walking on the street we discussed seeing and thinking of concepts. There were holes in the pavement and if one would only be aware of colour and seeing but not think, one would fall into the holes. We learn that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa, that there are no people, no things. ((May tie to the notion of nothingness.)) This does not mean that we should not think of people and things. Also thinking of concepts is part of our daily life, we could not function without thinking of concepts. Thinking is a conditioned reality, it is nama, not self. We can think with different types of citta, some are kusala and many are akusala. In the development of satipatthana, we come to know our daily life just as it is. Nina. == 24110 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 5 Hi Jon, Thanks for this correction. Sorry for the oversight. I will address the other points in another thread. Larry Jon: PS I add below the passage you have quoted a further short passage of text that comes after it (a separate paragraph, so easily overlooked). 24111 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:33 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > When a stage of insight arises, nama is directly > known. Then it can be directly known that seeing as nama, an element that > experiences. > Any additions by Kom are most welcome!!! Kom may discuss this in > Jack's Bay We have never gone this far ;-) kom 24112 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:42pm Subject: Vism. XIV 3-6 Hi Jon, You wrote, "The 3 kinds of dhamma experience/perceive the object at increasingly deeper levels. Thus although sanna's experience/perception of the object is not incorrect, it is not complete either." Could you expand on this a little. There are many kinds of consciousness. Eye consciousness, for example, would seem to be more basic than sanna. How can consciousness penetrate the general characteristics without understanding? Isn't understanding both a cetasika (panna) and a consciousness (amoha)? How does understanding lead to the manifestation of the path while consciousness doesn't? Is there a difference between the penetration of the characteristics by consciousness and the penetration by panna? You said that sanna's experience of the object is not incorrect but because both consciousness and understanding penetrate the general characteristics I would say they see the object "as it is" while sanna does not. In a previous email I called sanna's knowledge erroneous. Perhaps the error would be in taking sanna's knowledge as complete. We can discuss sanna's relationship to concept when we get to the exposition of sanna in the text, if you like. The illustration given there strongly suggests error, as I remember it. Any other points of controversy in this thread? Larry 24113 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Jon, Larry: "I think what you are referring to is vicara (sustained thought)." Jon: "It depends whether you go by the name or by the detailed description ;-)). I think you feel that the term 'sustained thought' seems to fit the kind of continuity you are interested in finding out about. But according to the actual description, it is vitakka that has the greater role in citta taking the same object repeatedly." L: Okay. What about the other points? Specifically, what is your understanding of concentration? The way I see it, vitakka and vicara is a crude form of concentration. My reasoning is that "jhana factor" = "jhana characteristic" and, as jhana factor, vitakka and vicara get the ball rolling, so to speak. Experientially, whenever I had something that seemed like an insight it was preceeded by vitakka and vicara. But occaisionally there was a bolt of lightening, "out of the blue". I can't explain that but I wouldn't rule out a role for concentration in a more subtle form. For example, I can carry around a "problem" for several days without thinking directly about it and then a solution arises. Also there are many subtle benefits to the practice of concentration not aimed at jhana. This necessitates the willful revisting of one object, the breath for example. I think it might actually be a way of cultivating the basic matrix of kusala citta and cetasika. There seems to be a general complaint about the usefulness of this proceedure. My only response is that it seems to provide a subtle salutary influence and a certain amount of clarity. And "usefulness", i.e., "insight", is little more than conceptual, most of the time, in the ordinary sense of cultivating right view. What is your understanding of concentration as the proximate cause of panna? Is this concentration no different than ekagatta cetasika that arises with every consciousness? Why not say attention (manasikara) is the proximate cause of panna? Larry 24114 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Sarah, Sarah: "However, as concentration arises with every citta, including all akusala cittas, emphasising or trying to develop concentration without any understanding is useless in this regard and merely encourages clinging to the self and to particular results so often, as I see it." L: I agree. There has to be right view in order to develop right concentration. And, seemingly, there has to be right concentration in order for understanding to arise. What I am trying to understand is why understanding (panna) doesn't arise. Maybe because the 8 path factors haven't arisen. I have exhausted all my thoughts on concentration on Jon but I would be interested in whatever you have to say in regard to the questions I asked him. Also I think a better understanding of concentration could improve learning in general. Larry 24115 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Sarah and Larry, Just to re-assure you that I'm quite interested in the Vism thread. As I'm carefully studying the text in the Pali along with the Maha Tika and comparing ~Naa.namoli's and Tin's translations with the text, it will take some time for me to go over the material and try to make sense of it all. I hope to have some worthwhile comments to post later on but I have to warn you that I'm moving along quite slowly, so please be patient. There are some words and phrases in ~Naa.namoli's translation that I have been questioning. I realize that many of the (mostly minor) points may only be of interest to me and a few others looking at it in Pali terms. At least, it's a good opportunity for me and others to study the Vism in some depth and get to know it better. It's been 20 years since I first read through the whole panna section and I don't remember much of it. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Larry, > > Thx for all your work with the Vism extracts and summary. I'm sure many > people like myself read carefully and consider. I like to also take a look > when Jon adds the Pali and when Nina and Jim add comments from the Tika. > Slowly and patiently. No response doesn't mean we've all gone to sleep. I > know that for Nina and Jim there is a lot of work involved for a start, > even when the paragraph may not seem to have a lot of meat. As Jon said, > B.Bodhi clarified that the copyright is not an issue in these discussions. > > If you lose the posts on key points such as 'penetration' or > 'endeavouring', some of these are being put under a new heading of > 'Vism....' in U.P. There's always some delay however. 24116 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself hi, While I am aware of certain methods of meditation, I was still wondering what everyone out there felt was closest to what Gotama's arahat disciples practiced. I would appreciate any links or text posts describing methods. Thank you all again for your valuable comments on past posts. They have helped me greatly. with metta, nori 24117 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wishes to Icaro Dear Icaro, op 12-08-2003 12:10 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > At the first forty days - Quarantine! - it will be > very difficult. I hope to survive the Boot Camp !!!!! N: Boot Camp must be terribly severe. But wherever you are, you take the Abhidhamma with you, and I do not mean just the book. My you develop more and more understanding in the midst of your harsh life, and become more and more convinced that nama and rupa are appearing all the time, ready to be objects of understanding. With all my best wishes, Nina. 24118 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B Dear Sarah, op 12-08-2003 10:22 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I also enjoyed the descriptions of all the pageantry and colour. We have a > kind of coral tree here in Hong Kong. I wonder if it's the same? N: I found the descriptions at first long, and then I started to like them more and more, I grew into them. I was looking in the books what a coral tree is like, exciting you have it. I found interesting info about pageantry in the Cullavamsa, you gave me decads ago. There is a good index about statues, plants, etc. I am glad you appreciate the good reminders. Nina. 24119 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] concentration Hi Sarah & Larry, -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 4:00 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration ..... Thx again for all your encouragement to everyone. Keep prodding Kom and all.....now Ken H must be catching some good waves - hope he hasn’t been dumped;-) Metta, ======================= Yes, I feel quite prodded. That's what a good friend does! Thanks Larry (and Sarah). kom 24120 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:48pm Subject: two versions Hi Sarah, > now Ken H must be catching some good waves - hope he > hasn't been dumped;-) Thanks for your concern: I'm keeping my head above water and enjoying dsg as always. You wrote to Nina; > I used to have an idea of the Bodhisatta leaving the > palace in the dark and all alone. In fact he left > during the full-moon, 'throwing aside' the 'empire' > 'with indifference as though it were a blob of > spittle'. Are the stories about him leaving quietly in the dark folklore or are they in the Tipitaka? It seems that there are always two contrasting versions of the life of the Buddha. In one, Prince Gotama starts out as an ordinary man left to his own devices in a world where there is no knowledge of the Middle Way. In the other, he is a bodhisatta who has been instructed by many Buddhas over countless aeons and who is amassing a scrupulously detailed knowledge of the Middle Way -- all under the watchful eyes of gods and devas. In absolute terms, there are only the namas and rupas of the present moment -- there are no Buddhas, Bodhisattas, or devas in the sense of 'living beings.' Stories of the Buddha are conventional truths which can be said to fit consistently with absolute reality. Since each of the above conflicting, contradictory versions is consistent with reality, are they both true? Could it be that one story is true in human eyes and another is true in the eyes of devas? That might explain how the Buddha is said to have been ten feet tall with the head of a lion, legs of an antelope etc., -- deva talk. (?) Kind regards, Ken H 24121 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 0:51am Subject: Wishing our lives away Dear Group, I was listening to a late night talk show and the discussion was about how most people live life from Friday night to Sunday night - the rest is not Life - it's just Work. From Monday morning, most workers are looking forward to Friday night. Wednesday is known as 'hump' day - climbing up the slope from Monday to Wednesday lunch time, getting over the hump, and then sliding down the other side from Wednesday to Friday. I think this is true of many people, they ignore the present moment and spend the time wishing their lives away. I know I often do. One speaker said that life is so short - 20 years is the equivalent of about 1000 weeks. Can most of expect to live another 1000 weeks? How best to spend the time left? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24122 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] wishes to Icaro Dear Nina: > N: Boot Camp must be terribly severe. But wherever > you are, you take the > Abhidhamma with you, and I do not mean just the > book. ---------------------------------------------------- YEAH !!!!! At the Theravadin Buddhism, one gets in one hand the Abhidhamma´s treatises, and at the other the discipline (Vinaya). The Abhidhamma will be always with me (As the Zen says, "With it, Fishmongers and butchers would become Buddhas" - No Michael, I am not refering to you in this quote!), either as a book, or as the own Vipassana or Parami´s Accumulation... and the military discipline will do good to me, since the Vinaya concerns only to monks - and I have not the calling to be one! ----------------------------------- Nina: "My you develop more and more understanding in the > midst of your harsh life, > and become more and more convinced that nama and > rupa are appearing all the > time, ready to be objects of understanding. > With all my best wishes," ------------------------------------------- Thanxs Nina! As quoted at the last stanza of Dhammasangani " What are the fully complete Dhammas ? The Four Kusalas, The Four Vipakkas, the three ( I couldn´t get a good translation of these!) ´Good Characteristícs´, Rupa, Nibbana - these are the Fully Complete Dhammas" Your regards are very precious for me! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24123 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi Ken, Ken: "Are the stories about him leaving quietly in the > dark > folklore or are they in the Tipitaka? It seems that > there > are always two contrasting versions of the life of > the > Buddha. In one, Prince Gotama starts out as an > ordinary man > left to his own devices in a world where there is no > knowledge > of the Middle Way. In the other, he is a bodhisatta > who has > been instructed by many Buddhas over countless aeons > and > who is amassing a scrupulously detailed knowledge of > the > Middle Way -- all under the watchful eyes of gods > and > devas." --------------------------------------------------- Ken, at the Sutta Nipatta, Mahavagga, Nalaka Sutta, we find the Sage Asita inquiring the gods about all the excitement at Lumbini Village: "4.´In a village called Lumbini, in the Sakyan country´, answered the gods,´a boddhisatta has been born! A being set for buddhahood has been born, a superlative without comparison, a precious pearl of the health and goodness of the human world. That´s what they´re so glad, so excited, so pleased." At the rest of the sutta, the life and mission of the Buddha is resumed and stated for Asita at Siddartha´s father and family. At the Jatakas we get many stories of the depart of Gautama from this home to the wilderness and his previous encarnations: as Dipankara, with Mecha the student at his feet and many others. All these are usually canonical in form and substance. ------------------------------------------------ Ken: " Stories of > the > Buddha are conventional truths which can be said to > fit > consistently with absolute reality. Since each of > the > above conflicting, contradictory versions is > consistent > with reality, are they both true?" -------------------------------------------------- As a Reader of Lotus Sutra could say, there are two modes of this question: the Historical Buddha, that is mentioned at the chapters 1 to 13 of Lotus Sutra, and the "Eternal Buddha", at the rest of the book - you can call him the own Dhamma, the Law, Nibbana or even god! Both viewpoints are right. ------------------------------------------------ Ken: "Could it be that one story is true in human eyes and > another is true in the eyes of devas? That might > explain > how the Buddha is said to have been ten feet tall > with > the head of a lion, legs of an antelope etc., -- > deva > talk. (?)" --------------------------------------------------- Tantra realms, Tantra speaking. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24124 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi Ken H & Icaro, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Thanks for your concern: I'm keeping my head above water > and enjoying dsg as always. ..... Just checking;-) .... > Are the stories about him leaving quietly in the dark > folklore or are they in the Tipitaka? It seems that there > are always two contrasting versions of the life of the > Buddha. In one, Prince Gotama starts out as an ordinary man > left to his own devices in a world where there is no knowledge > of the Middle Way. In the other, he is a bodhisatta who has > been instructed by many Buddhas over countless aeons and > who is amassing a scrupulously detailed knowledge of the > Middle Way -- all under the watchful eyes of gods and > devas. ..... I think that in the Pali canon there is remarkably little discrepancy and the different versions are often different aspects only - with more knowledge and reflection, more parts of the jigsaw puzzle fit into place. ..... > In absolute terms, there are only the namas and rupas of > the present moment -- there are no Buddhas, Bodhisattas, > or devas in the sense of 'living beings.' Stories of the > Buddha are conventional truths which can be said to fit > consistently with absolute reality. Since each of the > above conflicting, contradictory versions is consistent > with reality, are they both true? > > Could it be that one story is true in human eyes and > another is true in the eyes of devas? That might explain > how the Buddha is said to have been ten feet tall with > the head of a lion, legs of an antelope etc., -- deva > talk. (?) ..... I think both reports are correct and not just deva talk;-). Here are two extracts from the same source, the first confirming the ‘leaving quietly in the dark’ and the second confirming the pageantry and crowds of devas accompanying him, almost identical to the one I was reading from yesterday: ***** From Introduction to the Jatakas, here in Henry Clarke Warren’s ‘Buddhism in Translations’ http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm ***** 1. Now Kanthaka was eighteen cubits long from his neck to his tail, and of corresponding height; he was strong and swift, and white all over like a polished conch-shell. If he neighed or stamped, the sound was so loud as to spread through the whole city; therefore the gods exerted their power, and muffled the sound of his neighing, so that no one heard it; and at every step he took they placed the palms of their hands under his feet. The Future Buddha rode on the mighty back of the mighty steed, made Channa hold on by the tail, and so arrived at midnight at the great gate of the city. Now the king, in order that the Future Buddha should not at any time go out of the city without his knowledge, had caused each of the two leaves of the gate to be made so heavy as to need a thousand men to move it. But the Future Buddha had a vigor and a strength that was equal, when reckoned in elephant-power, to the strength of ten thousand million elephants, and, reckoned in man-power, to the strength of a hundred thousand million men. ***** 2. Thus the Future Buddha, casting away with indifference a universal sovereignty already in his grasp,--spewing it out as if it were but phlegm,--departed from the city in great splendor on the full-moon day of the month Âsâlhi, when the moon was in Libra. And when he had gone out from the city, he became desirous of looking back at it; but no sooner had the thought arisen in his mind, than the broad earth, seeming to fear lest the Great Being might neglect to perform the act of looking back, split and turned round like a potter's wheel. When the Future Buddha had stood a while facing the city and gazing upon it, and had indicated in that place the spot for the "Shrine of the Turning Back of Kanthaka," he turned Kanthaka in the direction in which he meant to go, and proceeded on his way in great honor and exceeding glory. For they say the deities bore sixty thousand torches in front of him, and sixty thousand behind him, and sixty thousand on the right hand, and sixty thousand on the left hand. Other deities, standing on the rim of the world, bore torches past all numbering; and still other deities, as well as serpents and birds, accompanied him, and did him homage with heavenly perfumes, garlands, sandal-wood powder, and incense. And the sky was as full of coral flowers as it is of pouring water at the height of the rainy season. Celestial choruses were heard; and on every side bands of music played, some of eight instruments, and some of sixty,--sixty-eight hundred thousand instruments in all. It was as when the storm-clouds thunder on the sea, or when the ocean roars against the Yugandhara rocks. Advancing in this glory, the Future Buddha in one night passed through three kingdoms, and at the end of thirty leagues he came to the river named Anomâ. ***** Now you've surfaced, we look forward to more feedback;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, look f/w to seeing you in uniform. Best wishes for Boot Camp. You'll be missed here. 24125 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Dear Sarah: Sarah: "p.s Icaro, look f/w to seeing you in uniform. Best > wishes for Boot Camp. > You'll be missed here." ------------------------------------------------------- Don´t worry, Sarah. The Boot Camp will be only at September. As I´ve said to Nina, The Abhidhamma will come with me, either as a book or as the vipassana or my own Accumulation! And, after the military quarantine... Tally Ho! Corn beef hash !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24126 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) Dear Nori, Goenka is a remarkable man, and it would be worth the trip to Shelburne Falls just to see him in action (at least on video tape). At the retreat, you will get great practice in developing concentration -- some "right concentration" (samma samadhi), and some "wrong concentration" (miccha samadhi). The difficult part is to discern the difference between the miccha and the samma. Goenka is a masterful teacher, but this discernment he does not address adequately for many students. As a consequence, it is very easy to fall into the trap of associating "pleasant sensation" as good, "unpleasant sensation" as bad. When that happens, progress on the path comes to a standstill, while the idea of "I am making great progress" becomes prominent. To avoid this pitfall, it may be helpful to read the section on "Corruptions of insight" in Vissudhimagga (Sorry I don't have the chapter and section numbers handy...I'm moving in two days and have already packed my Dhamma books). Here you will read about a number of very pleasant and unusual mental phenomena that may occur when concentration is sharp, e.g. sensation of illumination, waves of warm & fuzzy lightness passing through the body, sensation that the body is a little Buddha statue while the mind is observing the statue from behind the eyes. These are referred to by Buddhagosa as "corruptions of insight." They are termed "corruptions" not because there is anything wrong or corrupt about them, but because they are so easily taken as fruits of insight and clung to as real progress in insight: "I experienced such amazing things on the meditation retreat! I am really close to enlightenment. If I could just experience these things a little more, I'd be fully liberated." However, there is nothing particularly beneficial about these phenomena and their arising does not mean that insight is being developed. On the other hand, when these phenomena (or any mental phenomena, for that matter, including the mundane phenomena of everyday living) are truly understood as anicca, anatta, dukkha, insight is developed. Some of the phenomena listed as "corruptions of insight" are bound to arise. They should not be clung to as (or even viewed as) development of insight, but they must not be viewed as fearful or corrupt in and of themselves. They arise, they tend to be pleasant, and they have no real meaning. When a meditator attributes meaning to them that they do not have, wrong view and wrong concentration are developed, despite how adamant the meditator may be that right view and right concentration are what are being cultivated. After all, how could something that feels so good and so right and takes so much effort and is so readily described using Pali Buddhist terminology be wrong? Very, very easily. Disarminginly easily. Strikingly easily, even naturally. This caveat aside, there may not be a better meditation retreat readily available in the U.S. I wish you the best, Nori. My advice? If you go the retreat, work very diligently, but don't assume that because you worked hard your work was always right. In fact, you may very well have only a few moments of "right effort" in the whole ten days. Will you be able to tell which efforts are samma and which are miccha? If you are like the rest of us, you won't be able to. After many years and many retreats, you might get an inkling that some of the efforts that you had been convinced were right were really wrong. After many more years of contemplation, you might start to recognize the characteristics that distinguish the samma's from the miccha's (samma and miccha as referring to effort, concentration, view, etc.) Re texts that support Goenka's method: He claims his method closely parallels the Satipatthana sutta (in MN and DN). He even teaches a seven day course/meditation retreat in which he discusses in great detail the connection between his method and the Satipatthana sutta. Despite going through the course and working hard to see the connection, I'm still not convinced that the connection is strong or direct. (In fact, the more I look at it, the more I am convinced that there isn't much connection). Still, Goenka does not have a social or political agenda aside from teaching Dhamma. This is of enormous value and makes his courses relatively safe. Dan 24127 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Ray, Kom, Mike, Victor & All, Ray: > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > Well-gone further > said this: > > "All-conquering, > all-knowing, intelligent; > with regard to all things, > unadhering; > all-abandoning, > released in the ending of craving: > him I call > a man who lives > alone." > Kom: >This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of panna) even >without living by themselves. ***** S: Thank you both for your helpful contributions to the thread and this good summary. I’ll add further detail on viveka (which I posted before) at the end of this post as I think it’s useful. I’m also reminded of a fine verse Mike posted a week or so ago (to Icaro): Mike: > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > The overcoming of sensual desires; > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > Udana II, 1 Here is Masefield’s less lyrical but more detailed translation: “Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss.” This was uttered by the Buddha soon after his seven day experiencing of the ‘bliss of liberation’ (vimuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedi) to the brahmin youth. Notes from the Comy: ***** “Separation is bliss (sukho viveko)”; substrate spearation, reckoned as nibbana, is bliss. “For the one who is satisfied (tu.t.thassa)”: for the one who is satisfied by way of contentedness associated with the knowledge associated with the four paths....... “The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit (asmimaanassa yo vinaya)”: by this means, moreover, it is arahantship that is talked about. For arahantship is spoken of as ‘the driving out, by way of tranquillization, of the ‘I am’ conceit”; and there is known no bliss beyond this, for which reason he said “This is indeed the highest bliss”. So did he bring that teaching to a climax by way of arahantship. ***** Metta, Sarah ===== Detail on Viveka (seclusion, separation, detachment) 1.From Nyantiloka dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm * viveka 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: * (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; * (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous things; * (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). In the description of the 1st absorption, * the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kámehi) refer, according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; * the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca akusalehidhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; * the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 hindrances. -------------------------------------------------------- * viveka-sukha 'happiness of detachment', or aloofness (s. prec). "Whoso is addicted to society and worldly bustle, he will not partake of the happiness of renunciation, detachment, peace and enlightenment" (A.VII.86). ======================================================== 2. From Sammohavinodani, Comy to Dhammasangani, PTS, (1544): on seclusion as in “he develops the mindfulness awakening factor which is dependent on seclusion”: “Vivekanissita.m (“dependent on seclusion”) = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of opposites (tada”ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipasaddhi) and renunciation (nissara.na). “Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; seclusion through renunciation is nibbana, which has renounced all signs. Thus “dependent on seclusion” is dependent on this fivefold seclusion......” -------------------------------------------------------- 24128 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Sarah: > Sarah: "p.s Icaro, look f/w to seeing you in uniform. > Best > > wishes for Boot Camp. > > You'll be missed here." > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Don´t worry, Sarah. The Boot Camp will be only at > September. As I´ve said to Nina, The Abhidhamma will > come with me, either as a book or as the vipassana or > my own Accumulation! > > And, after the military quarantine... Tally Ho! Corn > beef hash !!! > > Metta, Ícaro Hi Icaro, I am very puzzled. How do you reconcile being a sincere Buddhist and entering a career where you kill people (or threaten to kill them)? Many on this list seem to be very happy for you but, honestly, I am very shocked. Can you help me understand? Metta, James 24129 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, Thanks for the great quotes on viveka, and especially for the Masefield translation of the Udaana quote. What was the source of the latter? mike 24130 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:55 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? The new OS I have (Windows 2000) doesn't treat my Thai CDs too well. Until I figure out if there's a way around this, this probably will be a while.... kom 24131 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Dear James: James: "I am very puzzled. How do you reconcile being a > sincere Buddhist > and entering a career where you kill people (or > threaten to kill > them)? Many on this list seem to be very happy for > you but, > honestly, I am very shocked. Can you help me > understand?" ---------------------------------------------------- I barely consider myself as a layperson on Buddhism! You see, to take the five vows - Not Murder, Not Steal, Not adulterate, Not Lie and Not Take Drugs and inebriant beverages - is the duty fo a monk, that take also the yellow robe and the Bhikku way of life. As a layperson I bear in mind the aspiration to get the stamina and moral courage to follow all them entirely. And I must to put in rememberance that the buddhism doesn´t preach at a direct way the non-violence and the vegganism. Jainists do it. I only follow the precepts as an ideal to be nurtured, not as a "Noblesse Obligé" pious vow. Japanese Samurais were great warriors and good buddhists also. There´s no contradiction between these terms. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24132 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 6 Dear Larry, Thank you very much for making the texts available here. op 12-08-2003 01:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness so > perception and consciousness are not invariable inseparably from > understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from > pleasure so understanding is inseparable invariably from perception and > consciousness' (Pm. 432). > > Larry: I think there is a typo in the text. Read "perception and > consciousness are not invariably inseparable from understanding". N: It is said in a complicated way. With cittas of the sensesphere, pleasure (pleasant feeling) and happiness (rapture, piti) arise always together, but it is not so in the higher jhanas. When panna arises, it must accompany citta, and it must be accompanied by sanna (one of the seven universals). How could panna arise alone, without citta? However, not all cittas are accompanied by panna. You are right about the typo. Nina. 24133 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 6. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:37:40 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 6. meanings of dhamma, no 6 The Saddaniti states with regard to the meaning of dhamma as pa~n~naa: The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pu~n~na, merit, by the same passage as used by the Atthasaalinii to explain dhamma as guna, merit: The Saddaniti explains the meaning of dhamma as concept: N: Words: pa~n~natti : designation, name, idea, notion. adhivacana (n): term attribute nirutti (f): interpretation, expression. The word pa~n~natti, concept, stands for name and for the idea expressed by a name or term. Names can designate what is reality in the absolute sense (paramattha dhammas, such as kusala, akusala, sound, etc.) and also what is not real in the absolute sense, such as person, house. The Saddaniti explains the meaning of dhamma as aapatti as follows: N: In the Vinaya, Suttavibha¹nga, four kinds of defeat are dealt with: sexual misbehaviour, stealing, killing and lying. When a monk transgresses in these ways he is no longer a monk. The offenses which are classified as sa'nghaadisesa are of a lesser degree but still require a formal meeting of the Sangha so that the disciplinary measures to be taken can be decided upon. Nina 24134 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: adieu hurts Dear Sarah, You were mentioning, with regard to James' diary that it is so natural that we feel sadness when taking leave. His diary is very honest. This reminded me of decads ago, when we were in Sri Lanka and you took me to the airport after our stay, with the late Captain Perrera. I cried, because I was so sad to leave A. Sujin and all the dear people in Sri Lanka. I quote what I wrote in my "Pilgrimage to Sri Lanka": Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Dear Larry, Jim and all, using Jim's useful corrections I came back to the text of the subco on Vis 3 we analysed, and now I repea first. But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. By way of the path seen by wisdom. lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani pa.tivijjhitva pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato paricayavasena > ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, When the consciousness is unaccompanied by understanding, insight (still) increases, because the practice (paricaya) has become skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na > vi~n~naayanti. even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. And the "penetration of characteristics", is stated with reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics). Now I continue the subco text: ussakkitvaati udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa aayuuhitvaa. As to the word having developed (with endeavour), this means, having cultivated by the practice of the insight realizing the arising and falling away (first stage of principal insight). maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m na sakkoti asambodhasabhaavattaa. The stage of being not awakened cannot bring about the manifestation of the Path. vuttanayavasenaati vi~n~naa.ne vuttanayavasena aaramma.na~nca jaanaati, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapeti. As to the words, by the way already stated, this means, by the way already stated as to consciousness, and this cognizes the object and penetrates the characteristics. attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava~nca paapeti. But after having developed with extraordinary endeavour, all by oneself, the manifestation of the Path can be attained. Questions: it seems that pa~n`naa refers here to lokuttara pa~n~naa, and here even to the Buddha¹s panna, in contrast to the state of asombodha. It also seems that citta with developing insight (of rise and fall) is reckoned as consciousness, although this is also accompanied by panna, but mundane panna. Is this so all the time we read about consciousness in these passages? Nina. 24136 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Dear Nina, Thank-you for your revised translation along with your questions. I will study what you have written and respond in more detail at a later time. For now, I'd like to respond to just the following: << But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. By way of the path seen by wisdom.>> In "By way of the path seen by wisdom", I had also come up with a similar translation initially. But now looking at the 'seen' for 'dassita' I think this is likely a mistake. The usual translation for 'dassita' (a causative p.p.) is 'shown'. So 'by way of the path shown by wisdom' is better, I think. But still it is difficult to grasp the full meaning of such a short but very important answer. What is this 'path'? Could 'pa~n~naaya' be in some other case besides the instrumental? Could the syntactical relation of the three terms be something quite different? I think it's very easy to misinterpret what Dhammapaala is actually saying. I found his interpretation of 'iti' in §4 and §5 as 'aadi' (etc., and so on) quite interesting and new to me. Best wishes, Jim 24137 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi all, Thank you Ray and all for this view on solitude (from kilesa). I was unaware of this perspective. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ray, Kom, Mike, Victor & All, > > Ray: > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > > Well-gone further > > said this: > > > > "All-conquering, > > all-knowing, intelligent; > > with regard to all things, > > unadhering; > > all-abandoning, > > released in the ending of craving: > > him I call > > a man who lives > > alone." > > > > Kom: > >This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha > ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or > living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the > laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of > panna) even > >without living by themselves. > ***** > S: Thank you both for your helpful contributions to the thread and this > good summary. I'll add further detail on viveka (which I posted before) at > the end of this post as I think it's useful. > > I'm also reminded of a fine verse Mike posted a week or so ago (to Icaro): > > Mike: > > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > > The overcoming of sensual desires; > > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > > > Udana II, 1 > > Here is Masefield's less lyrical but more detailed translation: > > "Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been > heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to > living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is > concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out > of the `I am' conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss." > > This was uttered by the Buddha soon after his seven day experiencing of > the `bliss of liberation' (vimuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedi) to the brahmin > youth. > > Notes from the Comy: > ***** > "Separation is bliss (sukho viveko)"; substrate spearation, reckoned as > nibbana, is bliss. "For the one who is satisfied (tu.t.thassa)": for the > one who is satisfied by way of contentedness associated with the knowledge > associated with the four paths....... > > "The driving out of the `I am' conceit (asmimaanassa yo vinaya)": by this > means, moreover, it is arahantship that is talked about. For arahantship > is spoken of as `the driving out, by way of tranquillization, of the `I > am' conceit"; and there is known no bliss beyond this, for which reason > he said "This is indeed the highest bliss". So did he bring that teaching > to a climax by way of arahantship. > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > Detail on Viveka (seclusion, separation, detachment) > > 1.From Nyantiloka dictionary: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm > > * > viveka > > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > > * > (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from > alluring sensuous objects; > > * > (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from > sensuous things; > > * > (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). > > In the description of the 1st absorption, > > * > the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kámehi) refer, > according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; > > * > the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca > akusalehidhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; > > * > the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 > hindrances. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > * > viveka-sukha > > 'happiness of detachment', or aloofness (s. prec). > > "Whoso is addicted to society and worldly bustle, he will not partake of > the happiness of renunciation, detachment, peace and enlightenment" > (A.VII.86). > ======================================================== > 2. From Sammohavinodani, Comy to Dhammasangani, PTS, (1544): > on seclusion as in "he develops the mindfulness awakening factor which is > dependent on seclusion": > > "Vivekanissita.m ("dependent on seclusion") = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion > is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of > opposites (tada"ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting > off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipasaddhi) and renunciation > (nissara.na). > > "Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion > through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting > off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; > seclusion through renunciation is nibbana, which has renounced all signs. > Thus "dependent on seclusion" is dependent on this fivefold > seclusion......" > > -------------------------------------------------------- 24138 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, Thanks for the reply. As I see it, the verses quoted neither says nor means that one should physically live alone or refer to the giving up of attachment. The verses do convey to me that solitude is a better way to live. In other words, living alone is better than living with husband, wife, boyfriend, or girlfriend. Given or giving up attachment to marriage and relationship and all the entanglement that comes along with it, one lives alone. I would not ask whether we should live alone in the forest or not. I would think that whether to live alone in the forest or not is a personal decision on how one would live his or her life. And to live in the forest, I don't think one needs to have supernormal knowledge and to be an arahant. Peace, Victor 24139 From: vimala Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself norakat147 writes: << While I am aware of certain methods of meditation, I was still wondering what everyone out there felt was closest to what Gotama's arahat disciples practiced. I would appreciate any links or text posts describing methods. >> Hi -- You might start at the source by reading two important Suttas: Majjhima Nikaya 10: The Satipatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html Majjhima Nikaya 118: The Anapanasati Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Vimala Robert [not the teacher associated with this group] vimala@m... njmc@s... http://satipatthana.org -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ One should guard against misdeeds (caused by) speech, and one should be restrained in speech. Giving up the evil conduct in speech, one should be one good conduct in speech. Random Dhammapada Verse 232 24140 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:27pm Subject: useful posts Hi Sarah and Kom, Would it be possible to maintain an index in "Useful Posts" of the English Pali posts of the Visuddhimagga, something like this: Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 (24108)? Larry 24141 From: RA Harris Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vimala" wrote: > Vimala Robert [not the teacher associated with this group] Oops, wrong list! I'm not a teacher at all, but share a Dhamma name with a teacher on another group -- vimala@m... 24142 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics There exist people, however few, who take on the burden of trying to improve world social and political conditions. They create for themselves a desire for improvement; they live with an attachment to this improvement, and so take stress and suffering upon themselves. They choose to live with concern and responsibility for the welfare of the world, and so naturally they suffer as a result; this they choose to take upon themselves because they feel this is what is right and good. It is also the case that there are bhikkus and bhikkunis, and lay practitioners, whether living in monasteries or in the forests and cities. In the morning, they do their alms rounds, and they eat it, they do their chores, read suttas, and for a good part of the day, they sit, absorbed in Jhana - in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, in the millions (?); they live aloof from worldly affairs, unconcerned, detached. They do not stress about them. They do not take part in them. Where is the moral justification for this? Are we not to work as a community? Concerned and taking upon attachment (thus stress) for its condition?; to make things work; Pitching in as a society? Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work to try and make things work in politics and government; People work hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will work? Who will stress? I am wondering what every ones thoughts are concerning this. With metta, nori 24143 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/13/03 9:13:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > There exist people, however few, who take on the burden of trying to > improve world social and political conditions. They create for > themselves a desire for improvement; they live with an attachment to > this improvement, and so take stress and suffering upon themselves. > They choose to live with concern and responsibility for the welfare > of the world, and so naturally they suffer as a result; this they > choose to take upon themselves because they feel this is what is > right and good. > > It is also the case that there are bhikkus and bhikkunis, and lay > practitioners, whether living in monasteries or in the forests and > cities. In the morning, they do their alms rounds, and they eat it, > they do their chores, read suttas, and for a good part of the day, > they sit, absorbed in Jhana - in the tens of thousands, hundreds of > thousands, in the millions (?); they live aloof from worldly affairs, > unconcerned, detached. They do not stress about them. They do not > take part in them. > > Where is the moral justification for this? Are we not to work as a > community? Concerned and taking upon attachment (thus stress) for its > condition?; to make things work; Pitching in as a society? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Bhikkhus and bhikkhunis traditionally teach. There are many who teach, leading others beautifully onto the path. There are many who write scholarly works and meditation manuals. In addition, there are many in all branches of Buddhism who support the physical welfare of human beings and animals, who work for the rights of both, and who support peace. In addition, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, Theravadins as well as Mahayanists, work towards enlightenment not only for themselves, but to be in an optimal position to assist others in their quest for freedom. I think this all stacks up quite favorably to the life of service found among laypersons. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work > to try and make things work in politics and government; People work > hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. > While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free > of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have > stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free > from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, in addition to what I have said before about them, are the primary preservers of the Dhamma, and for this I think we should be enormously grateful. ------------------------------------------------- > > What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will > work? Who will stress? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Do you think there is much likelihood of this? ;-) Also, what would happen if everybody adopted exactly the career, *whatever* that career might be? Suppose we all become insurance salesmen? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > I am wondering what every ones thoughts are concerning this. > > > With metta, > nori > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24144 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Nina: "Questions: it seems that pa~n`naa refers here to lokuttara pa~n~naa, and here even to the Buddha¹s panna, in contrast to the state of asombodha. It also seems that citta with developing insight (of rise and fall) is reckoned as consciousness, although this is also accompanied by panna, but mundane panna. Is this so all the time we read about consciousness in these passages?" Hi Nina, Good job on translating this commentary. I wonder if the distinction A. Sujin pointed out between satipatthana and vipassana would account for the difference between "consciousness" and "understanding" in penetrating the characteristics? Would you say that "consciousness" here has the character of mundane satipatthana? Can we say "by endeavor" means by stages of insight knowledge beginning with knowledge of rise and fall? Is that "tender phase" or "mature phase"? Below I list the 7 stages of the Path of Purification and their corresponding practices, including the 11 insight knowledges, followed by a comment from the "Guide" in CMA, p. 345 ["stages" in roman numerals, "insight knowledges" in arabic numerals]: I. Purification of virtue // Practice of four kinds of purified virtue II Purification of mind // Practice of access and absorption concentration III. Purification of View // Practice of understanding characteristics,etc., of mental and material phenomena IV. Purification by overcoming doubt // Practice of discernment of conditions for mental and material phenomena V. Purification by knowledge and vision of path and not path // Practice of 1. Knowledge of comprehension, 2. Knowledge of rise and fall (tender phase). Additionally, distinguishing wrong path from right path of contemplation. VI. Purification by knowledge and vision of the way // Practice of 2. Knowledge of rise and fall (mature phase), 3. Knowledge of dssolution, 4. Knowledge of fearlessness, 5. Knowledge of danger, 6. Knowledge of disenchantment, 7. Knowledge of desire for deliverance, 8. Knowledge of reflection, 9. Knowledge of equanimity towards formations, 10. Knowledge of conformity. Purification between VI and VII // Practice of 11. Change of lineage VII. Purification by knowledge and vision // Practice of knowledge of 4 supramundane paths Guide: These seven stages of purification are to be attained in sequence, each being the support of the one that follows. The first purification corresponds to the morality aspect of the path, the second to the concentration aspect, the last five to the wisdom aspect. The first six stages are mundane, the last is the supramundane paths. Larry: Would you elaborate on what A. Sujin said regarding the difference between satipatthana and vipassana? Larry 24145 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nora, I have had the same questions and haven't come up with a really "whole" answer, but I would say there is a good deal of romanticizing about the reclusive life. A life in samsara is stress and taking on stress and always "for the good", no matter the circumstances. A life free from attachment is free from stress, no matter the circumstances. In the very limited experience I have had with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, they seem to be a very hard working and earnest bunch who experience as much or more stress than ordinary people, but they deal with it in a dhammic way, ideally. Highly realized elders are usually deeply involved in maintaining their flock and have dealings of all sorts with the world. If you want to see for yourself, jump in! Larry 24146 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Hi all, For those averse to pali here is Vism. XIV, 3 and the commentary from Dhammapala's "Paramattha-manjusa" (Pm.) as translated by Nina, without the pali: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. ------------------ "Paramattha manjusa" But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? By way of the path seen by wisdom. When the consciousness is unaccompanied by understanding, insight (still) increases, because the practice has become skilled (by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics, and is evolving after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. And the "penetration of characteristics", is stated with reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics). As to the word having developed (with endeavour), this means, having cultivated by the practice of the insight realizing the arising and falling away (first stage of principal insight). The stage of being not awakened cannot bring about the manifestation of the Path. As to the words, by the way already stated, this means, by the way already stated as to consciousness, and this cognizes the object and penetrates the characteristics. But after having developed with extraordinary endeavour, all by oneself, the manifestation of the Path can be attained. 24147 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear James and Icaro, op 13-08-2003 18:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > James: "I am very puzzled. How do you reconcile being > a >> sincere Buddhist >> and entering a career where you kill people (or >> threaten to kill >> them)? I: . I only follow the > precepts as an ideal to be nurtured, not as a > "Noblesse Oblig?" pious vow. Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different matter. In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference here. It also depends on kamma in what circumstances we come. Some soldiers may never have to kill and that is fortunate. Lodewijk cannot handle a rifle, he was in military hospital for months because of a severe appendicitis. His fellow soldiers had to go to Indonesia and shoot (just before Indonesia's independence). Later he was Ambassador in Indonesia and we visited war graves, where he saw names of people he had known. In whatever situation we are, we should develop right understanding. As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. We should not underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. It teaches many details of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana we learn also, like the monk, as is said in the Vinaya. All those who practise satipatthana are in a sense monks. Nina. 24148 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -2 Dear Kio. op 12-08-2003 21:14 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > I do not think I should provide > my views in this group unless I am asked. N: Yes, do so. It is done here to make any remark, critizism, view, whatever you like. Most welcome. We welcome opposing views. No need to be asked!! Only, many people here are working and check the mail after work and this means that long mails are really hard to read or react to. It is helpful if you would divide your mails into small sections. And since people have read my "Time with A. Sujin" it is enough to just refer shortly to them. What do you think about this? You wrote: There was not such thought, just beginning to learn the theroy. Anyway, if we would think we have to do certain things in order to have more awareness, it enhances clinging to self who is doing it all. Nina. 24149 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Hi Larry & All, Larry: Would it be possible to maintain an index in "Useful Posts" of the English Pali posts of the Visuddhimagga, something like this: Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 (24108)? ***** Sarah: Yes, we can do it like this, but as there are always long delays by Kom and myself here (we only update once every 6wks on average), I’m thinking that as we’re using these extracts and need quick reference, it might be best if a volunteer could start and update a new file every time Jon checks the English (;-)) and adds the Pali under a new file with this name and simple links like this: z-Vism X1V-Eng/Pali text 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23711 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23711 etc If you think this would be OK, Larry, we’ll just wait for a volunteer who keeps reasonably up-to-date to do this for us. (I tried and failed - but someone else involved would be better anyway). (We'll still put key posts by Nina, Jim or others in the U.P. section but take out these text only ones in the new file). Metta, Sarah ===== 24150 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Nina, Mike, and Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:33 PM > processes. When satipatthana is being developed, we do not know nama as it > really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is directly > known. Then it can be directly known that seeing as nama, an element that > experiences. There has always been nama and rupa rising and falling uninterrupted, but yet there is no knowledge about them as they are. It takes being pointed out, wise consideration, that now it becomes known to us, little by little. But yet panna needs to be developed: one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about nama and rupa, to the clear distinction between the two. Even when realities appear to us now, there is no clear distinction between the two: panna is not yet quick or keen enough for this realization to happen. This is the same with all the stages of panna. Even when dhamma is rising and falling away right now, panna is not keen enough to realize this. Learning about Vipassana nana is like learning the sign post, and learning to recognize that without the first stages of tender wisdom, trying to learn/to know directly the finer characteristics of realities would be at best thinking, and at worst attachment towards results that could lead to micha-magga (wrong path), and micha-vimutti (wrong release). What nama is being learned, its characteristic is the same as what we learn from the book: that which cognizes, but the wisdom is not refined, is not keen, is not quick, is not penetrative enough to distinguish between the two. Same story as other vipassana nana, I think. If we are ever so concerned about vipassana nana, what about the characteristic of reality that can be known now? kom 24151 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the great quotes on viveka, and especially for the Masefield > translation of the Udaana quote. What was the source of the latter? ...... Thx for you appreciation too;-) (..and the arm is somewhat better this week with lots of 'hanging' exercises). 1.The Udaana, PTS, Peter Masefield, Ch 2-i "Mucalinda" 2. The Udaana Commentary, PTS (2 vols), Masefield, vol ch2-i "Mucalinda". (Highly recommended;-)) And just for you, Mike, one more (older) translation - maybe lyrical and detailed: 3. The Udaana: Verses of Uplift, PTS, F.L. Woodward, ch 2-i "Mucalinda": ***** Happy his solitude who glad at heart Hath dhamma learnt and doth the vision see! Happy is that benignity towards The world which on no creature worketh harm. Happy the freedom from all lust, th'ascent Past and beyond the needs of sense-desires. He who doth crush the great 'I am' conceit - this, even this, is happiness supreme. ***** Mike, I was about to suggest you try a better translation still. In the meantime, I just found myself jotting this down for any comments: Sarah’s rough notes: Nibbana is bliss for one content and free, When the Dhamma is apparent and known. Harmlessness and care for beings is bliss. Dispassion concerning the world is bliss, The overcoming of all sense-desires. The eradication of all conceit- This is the greatest bliss. ***** These are the key terms I looked at with the Comy notes (i don’t have the full Pali) - rather long to type the Comy in full, but glad to elaborate: sukho viveko tu.t.thassa sutadhammassa passato abyaapajja.m paa.nabhuutesu sa.mamo sukhaa viraagataa loke kaamaana.m samatikkamo asmimaanassa yo vinayo ***** Metta, Sarah ===== Thanissaro’s (?) > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > The overcoming of sensual desires; > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > Udana II, 1 Masefield’s “Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss.” ===================================================== 24152 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi Icaro and Sarah, > Ken, at the Sutta Nipatta, Mahavagga, Nalaka Sutta, > we find the Sage Asita inquiring the gods about all > the excitement at Lumbini Village: > > "4.´In a village called Lumbini, in the Sakyan > country´, answered the gods,´a boddhisatta has been > born! A being set for buddhahood has been born, a > superlative without comparison, a precious pearl of Thanks Icaro, so it seems people knew quite a lot about buddhas and enlightenment before Buddha Gautama discovered the Middle Way. I had the idea that, "self enlightenment" could only occur, after all knowledge of such things had died out in the world. Perhaps it could be said that all *direct* knowledge has to have died out. (I'm sure this has been explained several times on dsg: I'm being a bit slow.) Sarah wrote: > with more knowledge and reflection, more parts of the > jigsaw puzzle fit into place. > That's good enough for me. If the stories become more important than the message then we're slipping into religiosity. If we can't see how some parts of the text relate to the realities of the present moment, then those parts mightn't be what we need to hear at this stage. Kind regards, Ken H 24153 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hallo Nina, -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different matter. In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference here. EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher which has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. Just thinking. thanks, Eaglenarius 24154 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina, James (Icaro, Christine, Mike, Christhedis & All), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin > said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living > in > this world. ..... (I’ve been reading parts from the Comy (by Buddhaghosa) to the Parinibbana sutta - I think it was our recent free book from PTS, transl by Yang-Gyu An and really wonderful - full of useful detail. There are several other parts of relevance to discussions - such as a) the Buddha’s dwelling in phala-samapatti (fruition attainment) when sick, b) no other true ascetics or way to nibbana outside the Buddha’s teachings and c)‘Dhamma’ referring to correctness in welcome. If there’s anything anyone would like me to check, pls ask....) Now, I was reminded of James’ discussion before with Christine and others regarding the passage at the beginning of the sutta, when the brahmin Vassakara is sent by King Ajatasattu to visit the Buddha and sound him out about their plan to wage war against the Vajjis. The Buddha makes it clear that as the Vajjis are following all the conditions set out for a nation’s welfare, they cannot be beaten by attack, but only ‘through treachery or discord’. He tells Vassakara to ‘do as now seems fit’ and Vassakara returns to the King, delighted with what he has heard. There is a long and detailed section in the commentary and I’m sure everyone’s understanding was at least partly right when we discussed it before;-) I’ll just give a few notes from the comy: 1.Why did the King ask the Buddha’s advice at all? The King says: “Making war on a clan is a serious matter; one cannot strike even a single blow without consequences. But if one acts after consulting a single wise man, one is free from fault.”(nippavaado). 2. From the sutta, the Buddha asks Ananda at one point if “the Vajjis duly protect and guard the Arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm might do so, and those already come might live there in peace?” Comy: “the rightful protection, guarding and defense (dhammika.m rakkhaavara.na-gutti.m): Here protection (rakkhaa) as guarding against the arrival of the undesired is called guarding (aavara.na), as defending against the destruction of the desirable is called defense (gutti). In that context, the guarding of renouncers by surrounding them with a body of troops is called “rightful protection, guarding and defense.” The same words apply to seeing to it that people do not cut down trees in the grove of a monastery, or do not divert water from its reservoir, or do not catch fish in its lotus ponds.” 3. (The Vajjis) “are not to be overcome (akara.niiya) means “they are not to be conquered” (akattabba) or “they are not to be captured”. The meaning is that they cannot be captured by frontal attack.” “Without destroying their solidarity (a~n~natra mithu-bhedaaya) means except for destroying their solidarity. He shows by this that they can also be caught by creating internal dissension. This the brahmin minister said after drawing an inference from the words of the Blessed One.” 4. ...continuing with regard to the Buddha’s motive, discussed before.... “But does the Blessed One know the brahmin is going to draw the inference from his words? Yes, he knows. If he knows, why did he say them? Out of compassion. He presumably thought thus: “Even if I do not speak, he will go and capture them all within a few days. But if I speak, it will take three years for him to break up their harmony and capture them. Even such a short span of life is important; for while living they will each do merit as a basis for their own salvation” 5. Vassakara reported back to the King and suggested a devious plan by which he was deported, gained a position amongst the Vajjis and overtime created dissent amongst them by spreading false rumours. As a result they stopped assembling together, their defences were lowered and Vassakara was able to send a message to the King that it was time to attack. “So he entered with the gates still wide open, and only left after annihilating them all.” All the detail about the conditions for harmony and prosperity are very interesting to reflect on as well. Enough for now. Thanks for the prompt, Metta, Sarah ===== 24155 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi Vimala Robert, --- RA Harris wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vimala" wrote: > > Vimala Robert [not the teacher associated with this group] > > Oops, wrong list! I'm not a teacher at all, but share a Dhamma name > with a teacher on another group -- .... Some of us get lists and names mixed up, others get groups mixed up;-) In any case, I'm glad to welcome another Robert here as well.... you'll find you're in company with this part of your name here as well... ..And we're all teachers, students, friends and so on here.... Look forward to hearing any more of your quotes, reflections or detail about where you live or your background and interest in the Dhamma. Metta, Sarah ====== 24156 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wishing our lives away Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: Qu> .... Can most of expect to > live another 1000 weeks? A> ---The trouble is that you think you have time Qu> How best to spend the time left? I'd really be interested to hear what you think first;-) Meanwhile I’ll leave you with some lyrics to sing to yourself - just this once;-) Metta, Sarah ====== http://www.genesis-music.com/word2.htm YESTERDAY, TODAY, TOMORROW I met a man back in the future He was high then he was low. You know his one consideration Should he come or should he go I met a girl she wants to give me The gift of living just for today Ignore the past ignore the future You're only going to wish your life away - say Why can't today be tomorrow Why must there be yesterday Why can't today be tomorrow Oh tell me why please tell me why Are you wishing your life away? You know that life is no rehearsal You're never going to get it right It's inconsistent and it's imperfect It's going to give you sleepless nights And then you find you wake up nervous For every reason under the sun Life is full of indecision It's the same for everyone say Why can't today be tomorrow Why must there be yesterday - so tell me Why can't today be tomorrow Tell me why please tell me why Are you wishing your life away? Why can't today be tomorrow Why must there be yesterday so tell me Why can't today be tomorrow oh tell me Why can't today be tomorrow Are you wishing your life away Why can't today be tomorrow? (M. Rutherford/B.A. Robertson) © 1990 Michael Rutherford Ltd/R & B A Music Ltd/Hit & Run Music (Publishing) Ltd 24157 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi Vimala Robert, Ooops --- Sarah wrote: > Look forward to hearing any more of your quotes, reflections or detail > about where you live or your background and interest in the Dhamma. .... I just remembered to look at your website which I hadn’t seen before: http://satipatthana.org/njmc.html Thanks - this answers where you live and much more. In the early days of DSG we had another NY or NJ member with a satippatthana.org group and website. I think the name was Sotujanna. I wonder if you’re connected or know ‘her’ (I think!). Robert K would remember more. Metta, Sarah ==== 24158 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina: Nina: "We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we > cannot be perfect." -------------------------------------------------- That´s my opinion too, Nina. The buddhist Monk´s life - mainly at the Theravada - is a very serious attainment: not to be take out easily as a game or for fun...despite the fact that, at the Cunda Sutta ( Sutta Nipata, Uraggavagga, V, Buddha says to Cunda the Smith that "7.One who disguises himself by wearing the robes of the well-conducted ones, travels for gain, disgraces families, is impudent, deceitful, unrestrained, a gossip and waffler (don´t grab my hand,Michael !!!)pretending to be a real monk - he is one who defiles the path". Curiously, Buddha consider this kind of wrongdoer Monk as a real Bhikku - the fourth type (Cunda Sutta, 2). ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. > We should not > underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. > It teaches many details > of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana > we learn also, like the > monk, as is > said in the Vinaya. All > those who practise satipatthana are in a sense > monks." --------------------------------------------------- Agreed. I´ve read only a few chapters of the Vinaya - I am still downloading all the Tipitaka files at the www.tipitaka.org. It´s the Myanmar post-Council version and I do repute it as the best one! Satipatthana isn´t only a matter of Buddhist Mental Culture... and at a certain level of discourse, only bhikkus and bhikkunis can performe it at a right way. You handle we!! > Nina. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24159 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina: The last line of the last paragraph of the preceeding reply: ---------------------------------------------------- Icaro: "Satipatthana isn´t only a matter of Buddhist > Mental Culture... and at a certain level of > discourse, > only bhikkus and bhikkunis can performe it at a > right > way. You handle well the rifle, Nina! Bullseye! ------------------------------------------------- And the final salutation: Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24160 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Friends, I take your point, E. (is 'Eaglenarius really your name?)--more to the point, I think: Is it more useful to distinguish kusala from akusala in the conduct of another being (a concept) or in this moment (a reality)? A valuable distinction, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hallo Nina, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > matter. > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. > > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this > kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher which > has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. > Just thinking. > > > thanks, > Eaglenarius 24161 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:35 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > The buddhist Monk´s life - mainly at the Theravada - > is a very serious attainment: not to be take out > easily as a game or for fun... Easy or difficult doesn't matter much, I think. Depends on your idea of fun, though: If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize a greater happiness, let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard for the greater. Dhammapada 290 mike 24162 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Again, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Dear Nina: > The last line of the last paragraph of the preceeding > reply: > ---------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: "Satipatthana isn´t only a matter of > Buddhist > > Mental Culture... and at a certain level of > > discourse, > > only bhikkus and bhikkunis can performe it at a > > right > > way. You handle well the rifle, Nina! > Bullseye! The conclusion (tentative) that I've come to is that liberation by way of jhaana requires the extraordinary purity of ordained life (polished like a conch-shell and so on)--and that with good company (of preceptor especially). To find these conditions today? Good luck. mike 24163 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > If we are ever so concerned about vipassana nana, what about the > characteristic of reality that can be known now? That's the point, isn't it. Hence the importance of sati-sampaja~n~na, hence the importance of hearing and recollecting the Dhamma in great detail. mike 24164 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:50 PM Subject: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics > Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work > to try and make things work in politics and government; People work > hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. > While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free > of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have > stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free > from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. > > What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will > work? Who will stress? Not to worry, the entire world will never do this. This has never been a problem--ignorance, aversion and desire make the world go around. Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or political level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma (correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing and/or medicine, in my opinion. mike p.s. Monastic life is not so easy as you may think, for most monastics. 24165 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi, Icaro (and Ken, and Sarah, and all) - In a message dated 8/13/03 4:58:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Ken, at the Sutta Nipatta, Mahavagga, Nalaka Sutta, > we find the Sage Asita inquiring the gods about all > the excitement at Lumbini Village: > > "4.´In a village called Lumbini, in the Sakyan > country´, answered the gods,´a boddhisatta has been > born! A being set for buddhahood has been born, a > superlative without comparison, a precious pearl of > the health and goodness of the human world. That´s > what they´re so glad, so excited, so pleased." > ======================== Something struck me as familiar about this. A larger part of the Nalaka Sutta includes the following: ******************************** "Why is the deva community so wildly elated? Why are they holding up banners & waving them around? Even after the war with the Asuras -- when victory was the devas', the Asuras defeated -- even then there was no excitement like this. Seeing what marvel are the devas so joyful? They shout, they sing, play music, clap their hands, dance. So I ask you, who live on Mount Meru's summit. Please dispel my doubt quickly, dear sirs." [Then comes the gods' reply] "The Bodhisatta, the foremost jewel, unequaled, has been born for welfare & ease in the human world, in a town in the Sakyan countryside, Lumbini. ********************************* The final part of this has also been elsewhere translated as: ********************************* > The Bodhisatta, the foremost jewel, > unequaled, > has been born for welfare & ease > in the human world, > in a town in the Sakyan countryside, > Lumbini. > *********************************** This seemed so familiar to me. I then searched for and found the following, which made me wonder whether there was a borrowing, or whether we are dealing with archetypal mythos here: ************************************** Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. > " And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch > over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the > glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said > to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be > for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; > he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby > wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger." Suddenly a great company of the > heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the > highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests." ************************************ BTW, I'm not and have never been a Christian. My question is merely one of whether this is a matter of borrowing, of similar myth, or of mere coincidence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24166 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3-6 Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You wrote, "The 3 kinds of dhamma experience/perceive the object at > increasingly deeper levels. Thus although sanna's > experience/perception > of the object is not incorrect, it is not complete either." > > Could you expand on this a little. There are many kinds of > consciousness. Eye consciousness, for example, would seem to be > more > basic than sanna. How can consciousness penetrate the general > characteristics without understanding? Isn't understanding both a > cetasika (panna) and a consciousness (amoha)? How does > understanding > lead to the manifestation of the path while consciousness doesn't? > Is > there a difference between the penetration of the characteristics > by consciousness and the penetration by panna? I'm happy to try (to expand a little). The comment about consciousness penetrating the characteristics of an object has to be understood in the light of the commentary that Nina and Jim are discussing. There it explains that, in effect, this is a reference to *the consciousness that is accompanied by panna*. So without panna, there is no penetrating of characteristics by citta. This would exclude eye-consciousness, since a five-sense door moment of consciousness cannot be accompanied by panna. In general terms, citta/consciousness is said to be the chief in experiencing the object, that is to say, *merely* experiencing the object. But there is a lot more to be said or known about a citta than that, since there are 4 basic classes of citta, performing different 14 functions, as classified in the Abhidhamma, and number and effect of the accompanying cetasikas varies greatly. A couple of points about sanna and panna. They are both cetasikas (mental factors), that is to say, they accompany a citta and they experience the same object as the citta they accompany. So whether we talk about panna or amoha or vipassana, in absolute terms what is being referred to is the mental factor that is panna. > You said that sanna's experience of the object is not incorrect but > because both consciousness and understanding penetrate the general > characteristics I would say they see the object "as it is" while > sanna > does not. In a previous email I called sanna's knowledge erroneous. > Perhaps the error would be in taking sanna's knowledge as complete. > We can discuss sanna's relationship to concept when we get to the > exposition of sanna in the text, if you like. The illustration > given > there strongly suggests error, as I remember it. Sanna marks the object of the citta that it accompanies; just that (the simile given is, like the chalk mark put by a lumberjack on a log of felled timber). Conventional remembrance/recollection/identification is actually a whole series of mind-moments that 'think about' the object that has been marked by sanna. This thinking can result in mistaken recollection, but sanna itself cannot 'make an error', as I understand it. I don't know if this helps. Jon 24167 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: "Easy or difficult doesn't matter much, I think. > Depends on your idea of > fun, though: > > If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize > a greater happiness, > let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard > for the greater. > > Dhammapada 290". --------------------------------------------------- However is a very definite decision to be take, Mike. Just consider that wear the yellow robe is a hard task to be performed, despite your moral courage and decision. You see, typing at a keyboard my fingers can slip and... there is a typo. At a more serious scene, your mind as a bhikku must to be kept very well tighted,or some errors may propagate dramatically. Sorry Mike, but I don´t see it as a matter of fun, or renunciation of fun. Anyway, if you decide to do it...good luck !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24168 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: ------------------------------------------------- > Hello Again, --------------------------------------------------- Hello... Hellooow... Helloooowwww... Hello !!! ----------------------------------------------- Mike: " The conclusion (tentative) that I've come to is that > liberation by way of > jhaana requires the extraordinary purity of ordained > life (polished like a > conch-shell and so on)--and that with good company > (of preceptor > especially). To find these conditions today? Good > luck. ------------------------------------------------ Did you see ? Carry on decisions can be very hard sometimes. If you keep yourself thinking that one must have got this or that requisites: good company, preceptors, good conditions and so on, no definite step will be assumed by you at any path. Siddartha Gautama left his Great House towards an unbelievable mystery: the outer world, to find something totally strange and dubious for himself: the the Existence of all beings´final answer. Personally, I take on this matters at other hand: sometimes I try to keep my thoughts focuses on the end line, take a deep breath...and CHARGE !!! The End or Bust !!!... sometimes I stop myself , sit down with legs folded , take again a deep breath and I keep trying to cultivate my mind. Keep Boostin´!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24169 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Dear Howard: Howard: "BTW, I'm not and have never been a Christian. > My question is merely > one of whether this is a matter of borrowing, of > similar myth, or of mere > coincidence." ----------------------------------------------------- Good question, Howard! Contacts between hebrews and hindustanis have been around from the Upanishads´age: Solomon The King was mentioned at these scriptures as Yama, and so on. Many jainist texts as Samaysaar, Niyamasaar and others by Kundkund and Bhadrabahu , for example, have got many ressemblances with some Theravada texts. Here in Brazil people usually says " Who don´t communicate will be at fate" ( a loose traduction of "Quem não se comunica se trumbica")... and as a matter of fact, Solomon, Isaiah and other biblical profets came after the buddhistic texts. Mutual borrowing! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24170 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Dear Jim, op 13-08-2003 20:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > << But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the > penetration of the characteristics? >> pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. > By way of the path seen by wisdom.>> . The usual translation for > 'dassita' (a causative p.p.) is 'shown'. N: right, di.t.tha would be: seen. J:So 'by way of the path shown > by wisdom' is better, I think. N: pa~n~naaya: with regard to p~n~naa? Another option: By the way that is shown with reference to pa~n~naa. Magga: we do not always have to think of lokuttara magga. Nina. 24171 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, satipat. and vip. Dear Larry, op 14-08-2003 03:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would you elaborate on what A. Sujin said regarding the > difference between satipatthana and vipassana? N: The are the same, but insight knowledge goes up to the stages which are lokuttara. They both amount to the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. Satipatthana is mundane as we have seen in the Co. We can also say, the development of the Path amounts also to the development of satipatthana and vipassana. It is also the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. But when we speak of the eightfold Path we think of the different factors. Nina. 24172 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Dear Larry, op 14-08-2003 06:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > By way of the path seen by wisdom. N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And the whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this sentence. Nina. 24173 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions correction!!!! ----------------------------------------------- > Here in Brazil people usually says " Who don´t > communicate will be at fate" ( a loose traduction of > "Quem não se comunica se trumbica")... and as a > matter > of fact, Solomon, Isaiah and other biblical profets > came before the buddhistic texts. Mutual borrowing! ------------------------------------------------- Gosh...there must be the cold I got !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24174 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers if it wasn't fun, happiniess, peace, freedom, love, sharing, compassion, joyful, why would anyone want to choose to be a monk? Elias >From: icaro franca >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers >Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:17:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Mike: >Mike: "Easy or difficult doesn't matter much, I think. > > > Depends on your idea of > > fun, though: > > > > If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize > > a greater happiness, > > let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard > > for the greater. > > > > Dhammapada 290". > >--------------------------------------------------- > > However is a very definite decision to be take, >Mike. Just consider that wear the yellow robe is a >hard task to be performed, despite your moral courage >and decision. You see, typing at a keyboard my fingers >can slip and... there is a typo. At a more serious >scene, your mind as a bhikku must to be kept very well >tighted,or some errors may propagate dramatically. >Sorry Mike, but I don´t see it as a matter of fun, or >renunciation of fun. > > Anyway, if you decide to do it...good luck !!! > > Metta, Ícaro > 24175 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Hi Nina, In the light of other remarks in the Pm. commentary I think the one doing the seeing or showing is the Buddha. Following the path with a faith that is somewhat blind we practice satipatthana and insight is developed, a little, even though we don't see realities directly. This is at the level of "consciousness" (as a figure of speech). The endeavour that leads to manifestation of the path doesn't begin until the insight knowledge of rise and fall. This is the "understanding" level. Correct? Larry ------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, op 14-08-2003 06:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: By way of the path seen by wisdom. N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And the whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this sentence. Nina. 24176 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3-6 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. Could you explain why panna can't arise in a 5-door process? Or did you mean panna can't arise with a 5-door consciousness? If so, why? In the discussion of sammasana nana A. Sujin said something about panna arising through the mind-door, but I didn't quite understand what she was saying. I think perception, consciousness, and understanding as "modes of knowing" is mostly a figure of speech used to illustrate different levels of knowing that manifest in complex structures characterized, loosely, by these three khandhas. Unless the reference is specifically to citta process, I think a complex structure characterized by a khandha is what is indicated in the Visuddhimagga and certainly in sutta when a khandha is mentioned. Agreed? Larry ------------------- Jon: "...So without panna, there is no penetrating of characteristics by citta. This would exclude eye-consciousness, since a five-sense door moment of consciousness cannot be accompanied by panna..." 24177 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:44pm Subject: no juice Howard, Are you in the dark? Did you have to walk 20 miles to get home? Larry 24178 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:46pm Subject: hot Nina, I read that 3000 people died in France due to the heat wave. How is it where you are? Be careful. Larry 24179 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:47pm Subject: Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi Nori (and Vimala Robert), There is a form of meditation that is popular in modern society, simply as a kind of therapy. People recommend you 'try meditation,' in the same way you might try listening to music, going for walks or taking up a hobby. This type of meditation is widely assumed to be a part of Buddhist practice even though there is no mention of it in the texts. In the texts, some (some!) people are said to be suited to jhana meditation: this is a full-time occupation and it bears no resemblance to any kind of relaxation therapy. There are a certain lines in the Satipatthana Sutta which are seized upon by exponents of popular meditation. But these lines must be read in the context of the rest of the Tipitaka. They do not have the conventional meaning, "when you are walking, know that you are walking; when you are washing the dishes, know that you are washing the dishes." They have the profound meaning that nama and rupa can be known with Right Understanding (that is, satipatthana can occur), at any time in daily life. Courses in popular meditation, as conducted by S N Goenka, will not prevent satipatthana from ocurring but they can give rise to wrong understanding. They can give the impression that satipathana can only arise at times of ritualistic practice: they can foster the idea of a self who can control the rise and fall of dhammas: they can foster the idea of a self who can direct mindfulness towards a chosen object. After this was brought to my attention, I decided that the totally misleading idea of control was inseparable from all of [then] my meditation practices. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vimala" wrote: > norakat147 writes: > << While I am aware of certain methods of meditation, I was still > wondering what everyone out there felt was closest to what Gotama's > arahat disciples practiced. > I would appreciate any links or text posts describing methods. >> > > Hi -- > > You might start at the source by reading two important Suttas: > > Majjhima Nikaya 10: The Satipatthana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html > > Majjhima Nikaya 118: The Anapanasati Sutta > 24180 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi (Mike, Nina, Ikaro and All), Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't have wings. I know that we cannot be perfect in this world. There is always two opposite points of view in every action. However in term of Buddhism, I'm very sure that killing is not a kusala kamma, though in the name of country duty or nationality. In every killing, there will be always bad consequences, whether he is a soldier or a civilians. I just feel guilty not to stop a friend from doing akusala kamma, it will be more fruitful to advise than support the future akusala kamma. Please, don't misunderstand. Sincere bow, Eaglenarius -----Original Message----- From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:27 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Friends, I take your point, E. (is 'Eaglenarius really your name?)--more to the point, I think: Is it more useful to distinguish kusala from akusala in the conduct of another being (a concept) or in this moment (a reality)? A valuable distinction, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hallo Nina, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > matter. > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. > > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this > kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher which > has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. > Just thinking. > > > thanks, > Eaglenarius 24181 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Nina, James, Ícaro, and all, First of all, killing is unwholesome action (akusala kamma). It is unwholesome whether it is committed out of duty or not. Nina, are you saying that it is ok for one to kill because he or she is not perfect, or not a stream-enterer (sotapanna), or kills out of duty? Or are you saying that killing is unwholesome and refraining from killing is wholesome? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James and Icaro, > op 13-08-2003 18:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: [snip] > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > matter. > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. [snip] > As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. We should not > underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. It teaches many details > of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana we learn also, like the > monk, as is said in the Vinaya. All > those who practise satipatthana are in a sense monks. > Nina. 24182 From: mollyo Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Vipassana Research Institute Hi all, Here is a link to a helpful, intelligent web site that has tons of interesting info for people interested in Vipassana Meditation, Tipitika, Pali... it's well done, solid, thorough and established. http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ Metta, Molly -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The mind is hard to check. It is swift and wanders at will. To control it is good. A controlled mind is conducive to happiness. Random Dhammapada Verse 35 24183 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Yahoo update - no change for DSG;-) Dear Friends, Yahoo asked us to show this note to all members. I don’t think there is anything that will affect anyone on DSG because we haven’t allowed attachments for a very long time, and you already need to be a member to access photos and files, so there’s no change for us. (Some members have difficulty accessing these if they haven’t become a yahoo groups member. Try one of the links below or contact Jon or Kom OFF-LIST if you need help with this.) Metta, Sarah ***** From yahoo: *** PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL *** Dear Yahoo! Groups Moderator, Important update: The new date for service changes is August 21, 2003. You are receiving this notice because you are a moderator of one or more groups. Previously, we emailed you about upcoming service changes to Yahoo! Groups. To give you more time to manage your files, we have pushed back the date of these changes to August 21, 2003. To continue offering you a high quality, free service, Yahoo! Groups is making the following changes: Message Attachments: Email attachments will no longer be archived in the Messages area, although Yahoo! Groups will continue to deliver attachments sent by email. On August 21st, all attachments in the Messages area will be removed, and Yahoo! will be unable to retrieve the data. Please note: All of your group messages will remain. Only the attachments will be deleted. Before August 21st, if you want to preserve them, you must move your old message attachments. To do so, go to the Messages area and click on "Expand Messages." This lets you view many attachments on one page so you can download them easily. Then you can upload them to the Files and Photos areas in your groups. The Files and Photos features will allow you to better organize your email attachments. Files and Photos: You will now need a web membership to access a group's Files and Photos areas. To make sure you have web memberships to all of your groups, please visit this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/memwiz Add Members: Although there is no membership limit for your group, we are changing the Add Members feature so you can add only 10 new members each day. You can continue to use the Invite Members feature to invite as many people to your group as you wish. For more details on the service changes described above, please visit our help section http://help.yahoo.com/groups/groups-56.html. We hope you will pass this notice along to your group's members so they are aware of the changes. Thank you for your support as we continue to improve Yahoo! Groups. Sincerely, The Yahoo! Groups Team This is a service email related to your use of Yahoo! Groups. Please do not reply to this email. For Help or to read the FAQ, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/groups/groups-56.html. To learn more about Yahoo!'s use of personal information please read our Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/groups/index.html. 24184 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers as said, one should train oneself, and not allow anyone to hurt themself or others. as you mentioned, of perfectness. there's no such thing. If you see perfectness and unperfectness, you have choosen opinions, percetions. there's anicca, the mind itself, creates the untrue with opinions and thoughs. therefore thinking, this is that, this is so, one falls in the untrue. - i'm not here to have fun, (or to seek suffering) i'm here to find truth. thinking this way, one reflects on the truth, living for it, and seeking for it. Elias >From: "eaglenarius" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:58:01 +0700 > >Hi (Mike, Nina, Ikaro and All), > >Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't have >wings. > 24185 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers i might to try to answer, thought my name isn't nina. is that ok? One can ask a a doctor, who commit suicides for those who wishes it. do you understand? hopefully. One can ask the doctor, "do you have desire to kill a being". ofcurse he does, or else he wouldn't kill the being. this way, one sees that mental danger* had arised in the mind of his. * why is it called mental danger, because such mental thoughts leads to danger. as for killing without desire, is not possible, or else one wouldn't want to kill. so if you see a mosquito, and notice desire to kill it, there you go, danger danger. Elias >From: "yu_zhonghao" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:40:37 -0000 > >Hi Nina, James, Ícaro, and all, > >First of all, killing is unwholesome action (akusala kamma). It is >unwholesome whether it is committed out of duty or not. > >Nina, are you saying that it is ok for one to kill because he or she >is not perfect, or not a stream-enterer (sotapanna), or kills out of >duty? Or are you saying that killing is unwholesome and refraining >from killing is wholesome? > >Peace, >Victor > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom >wrote: > > Dear James and Icaro, > > op 13-08-2003 18:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: >[snip] > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. >Sujin said, > > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are >living in > > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a >coward is > > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try >to > > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be >perfect. > > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a >different > > matter. > > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do >you kill > > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a >difference > > here. >[snip] > > As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. We should not > > underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. It teaches >many details > > of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana we learn also, >like the > > monk, as is said in the >Vinaya. All > > those who practise satipatthana are in a sense monks. > > Nina. 24186 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Dear Nina, Jim & Larry (& Jon), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > By way of the path seen by wisdom. > N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And > the > whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this > sentence. ..... Greatly appreciating your extra translations and notes from the Tika. I’m probably just confusing further (in which case pls ignore), but let me add: 1. ~Naa.namoli’s glossary at back of Vism: dassana 1) seeing (the eye’s function), 2) vision, 3) term for the first path 2. From ~Naa.namoli’s transl of Sammohavinodanii: 439 “Also the path is of one kind as what should be developed; it is of two kinds as divided into tranquillity and insight*, or as divided into seeing [dassana] and developing [bhaavanaa].....” 3. 642 “That is to say, knowledge [~naa.na] is understanding. It (i.e understanding) makes known and plain the four truths with each meaning and each cause. But this ignorance when it arises does not allow that (understanding) to make that (dhamma) known and plain; thus, because of its opposition to knowledge, it is unknowing (a~n~naa.na). Also seeing (dassana) is understanding. It achieves that quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to achieve, thus it is non-achievement (anabhismaya). Wakening, awakening and penetration are understanding. It wakens to that quality, awakens to it, penetetrates it. But ignorance when it arises, does not allow it to waken to, to awaken to, to penetrate it, thus it is non-wakening, non-awakening, non-penetration (ananubodha, asambodha, appat.tivedha). ***** Nina, I was wondering if the sentence after pannaaya dassitamaggena could be turned round to make more sense to me - sth like- ‘As the practice has become skilled by insight...... characteristics at various moments,... insight increases to (other) consciousness unaccompanied by understanding.??? (I realize now I may have just misunderstood your transl as ithe first line about consc. unaccomp. by und. can be read in two ways, I think). ***** * footnote for Jim (& Jon): Mt (Mulatika to Vibhanga, Burmese script 1960) “They say that ‘insight’ is Right View and Right Thinking and ‘tranquillity (samatha)’ is the remainder; for them the meaning is that virtue is included by including tranquillity since virtue is helpful to tranquillity. Alternatively it should be understood that the path obtained by the two vehicles (yaana) is spoken of as ‘tranquillity and insight’ with reference to the way of arrival. Anu.t (Anutika to Vibhanga, Burmese script 1960): By the two vehicles of tranquillity and insight. Although at the path moment tranquillity and insight can only be coupled together (yuganaddha), just as in the case of such designations [of the path] as void, so also the path can have the designations of tranquillity and insight due to the way of arrival - hence ‘with reference to the way of arrival’. Or the meaning here should be understood as that the path is insight for one in whom the wisdom faculty is in excess, tranquillity for others.” [notes added by Lance Cousins] Metta, Sarah ====== 24187 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, >...... In other words, living alone is better > than living with husband, wife, boyfriend, or girlfriend. Given or > giving up attachment to marriage and relationship and all the > entanglement that comes along with it, one lives alone. I would not > ask whether we should live alone in the forest or not. I would > think that whether to live alone in the forest or not is a personal > decision on how one would live his or her life. And to live in the > forest, I don't think one needs to have supernormal knowledge and to > be an arahant. ..... I’d like to quote something Larry wrote to Nori: L: “A life in samsara is stress ...... A life free from attachment is free from stress, no matter the circumstances.” In other words, rather than thinking about what is ‘a better way to live’, can we say that the best way is to see and give up the ‘entanglement’ of attachment -- regardless of the object -- at this very moment? As I understand (and certainly experience!!)those pesky kilesa (defilements) are pretty good at following us around regardless of any changes in lifestyle. One can give away all one’s possessions (as I’m sure many of us here on DSG have done before), live alone in solitude and isolation (as again, I’m sure many of us have tried), and find that these conditions do not of themselves lead to any reduction in attachment, accumulated over countless lifetimes. There really is only one way: the development of satipatthana. As Ken H put it in his usual pithy way: “If the stories become more important than the message then we're slipping into religiosity. If we can't see how some parts of the text relate to the realities of the present moment, then those parts mightn't be what we need to hear at this stage.” None of this is to suggest that for some people, living the life of a recluse or even in the forest may come very naturally. For most people, I don’t think this is so and I don’t recall the Buddha ever recommending any lay people to physically live alone as a better way to reduce attachment, but rather to develop understanding regardless of one’s lifestyle. I also believe that very few followers of the Buddha - monks or laypeople - lived entirely alone. Even the Buddha’s attendant, the Thera Meghiya found that he wasn’t suited to dwelling alone in the Mango grove, in spite of his strong wish to do so. Let me repeat part of the post about Meghiya (from Udana4, Meghiya, 1) which I wrote (to Frank again) before: ***** In brief, Meghiya is the Buddha’s attendant at the time. He sees a mango grove which inspires ‘serenity’ and which he considers suitable for making an effort on the Path. The Buddha gives some brief comments which Meghiya doesn’t appreciate and after asking permission to go to the grove for the third time ‘for the purposes of effort’, the Buddha just suggests he should do what it seems to be the time to do. To Meghiya’s great surprise, even though he has become a bhikkhu in good faith and gone to the secluded grove to make an effort, he is ovrwhelmed by thoughts concerned with sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty. He returns to the Buddha who says: “When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity.” He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. “..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom.....’ 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. ***** With regard to the first point, the good friend, the commentary adds a lot of detail.“This is the first thing that conduces to full maturity (aya.m pa.thamo dhammo paripaakaaya sa.mvattati): this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on acount of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liberation of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified(the faculties of) faith and so that are as yet unpurified....” It then quotes various suttas about the value of the ‘lovely friend’: “For this, Ananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend..”. Earlier the commentary says: “Since he proceeds, by way of both mind and body, in a state that slopes, tends, inclines towards lovely individuals alone, he is “one with a lovely intimate”. By means of this triad of words, he gives rise to regard with respect to association with a lovely friend.”.end quote> ***** I’m sure we’re all talking together (rather than in solitude in the mango grove at this moment;-)) because we appreciate and respect the value of ‘lovely individuals’ and the sloping towards those who encourage us in kusala, especially panna (wisdom). Let me just share a comment from the commentary on the note above about “seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom”....: “...For whatever monk there be who beholds a sin, even the size of the smallest of atoms, taking this to be similar to Sineru, king of mountains, that is a hundred thousand yojanas, plus sixty-eight thousand more besides, in height, who also beholds mere bad speech, which is totally petty, taking this to be similar to (an offence involving ) Defeat, such a one is also known as “one seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom”. I think this gives an indication of how far there is to go;-) One last note I find interesting relates to the fact that the Buddha knew Meghiya's work would 'fail to be accomplished' but knew it was useless to try to sop him. From the sutta the Buddha says: "How can we speak, Meghiya, when you speak of effort? You should do that for which you deem it now to be the time". We also read in the commentary about all the conditions from previous lives for Meghiya to choose that spot in the grove. Let me sign off by reposting the verse which James posted, prompting these reflections on the story leading up to it: ********************************************************* > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Little thoughts, subtle thoughts, > when followed, stir up the heart. > Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one runs here & there, > the mind out of control. > But comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one who is ardent, mindful, > restrains them. > When, followed, they stir up the heart, > one who is awakened > lets them go without trace. > Udana IV.1; Meghiya Sutta > ******************************************************** I think this is an important topic, Victor and I’d be glad to continue this discussion further. I’m sure many others here will share your views. With metta, Sarah ======= 24188 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:25am Subject: Heat and Dark in samsara Hi New Yorkers & Yasa, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina, > > I read that 3000 people died in France due to the heat wave. How is it > where you are? Be careful. ... Yes, New Yorkers, hope you get connected soon, also Jim in Ontario (?) and I'm thinking of Dan and his move..?? It would also be good to hear from Yasa in Paris....it doesn't sound like a good place to be this summer at all. We're used to the temperatures here in Asia, but equipped for them. Nowhere is equipped for heat like this in European cities. (Also hope all the poor up-to-date Windows folk haven't been hit by the latest virus... another consideration for my delay of the inevitable....) Metta, Sarah ======= 24189 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/14/03 8:45:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard, > > Are you in the dark? Did you have to walk 20 miles to get home? > > Larry > > ========================= Larry, I wrote a long "thank you" reply last night, around 1:30 a.m., but right before I could send it, we lost the power again! It came back in my immediate area around 4:00 a.m. I very much appreciate your asking about me. In my same attempted reply, I also expressed my best wishes for all others, particularly list members, affected by the blackout and also for any list members from France and other European countries affected by the terrible heat wave. BTW, the power outage complicated what has been a very trying time for my wife and me. We were at the hospital all day yesterday for my wife's mother, 81, who had open-heart surgery a week or so ago to replace the aortic and mitral valves of the heart. (She would surely have died soon had that not been done.) She has been through "hell", and yesterday she took a turn for the worse. She's in very bad congestive heart failure. Powerful medications and removing nearly 3 liters of fluid from her lungs by long needles haven't saved the day. Yesterday they inserted two chest tubes for steady drainage of fluid (one more liter can out immediately), they intubated her with a breathing tube to enable her body to throw off the excess CO2 from her blood, and they gave her heavy sedation to create a temporary "induced coma" to provide deep rest. The situation could go either way now. Strong antibiotics given yesterday have managed to bring down a high fever and reduce her rapid heart rate, and that gives some good prospects. Also, in a phone call I *just* made, I learned that there has been further improvement in the heart rate and other measures, and it is possible that the breathing tube may be removed later today. This creates some hope It's painful to hope, and yet ... . For our personal lives, the power outage was the nasty-tasting icing on a spoiled cake. ;-) But perhaps they can salvage that cake yet. With much metta, and warm regards to all, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24190 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/14/03 8:48:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Courses in popular meditation, as conducted by S N > Goenka, will not prevent satipatthana from ocurring but > they can give rise to wrong understanding. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Did you have a poor experience at a Goenka retreat, Ken? I'd be interested in reading what that was. ------------------------------------------- They can give> > the impression that satipathana can only arise at times > of ritualistic practice: they can foster the idea of a > self who can control the rise and fall of dhammas: they > can foster the idea of a self who can direct mindfulness > towards a chosen object. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not my experience. Most of the favorable changes in me (there have been some! ;-) I can fairly attribute to my attending a 10-day Goenka retreat, a most demanding process, "popular" only in that word gets around of its excellence ad seriousness. For me it was an opportunity to develop deep concentration, powerful mindfulness and investigation of dhammas, and to undergo a life-changing and life-improving no-self experience, followed by subsequent "emptiness insights" within the years following the retreat. There has been less and less sense of self, a dropping away of a *belief* in self, and a loosening up of the personality, with a noticeable reduction in craving and aversion, in clinging, and in proliferating of concepts and "stories". There has been a general easing of the mind. So, from my perspective, while the Goenka approach is not the be-all and end-all, and is certainly not a sine qua non, I would be *quite* opposed to describing it in the negative terms that you employ. ------------------------------------------------------- > > After this was brought to my> > attention, I decided that the totally misleading idea of > control was inseparable from all of [then] my meditation > practices. > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24191 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Larry and All --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry & All, > > Larry: Would it be possible to maintain an index in "Useful Posts" > of the > English Pali posts of the Visuddhimagga, something like this: > Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 > (24108)? > ***** > Sarah: ... If you think this would be OK, Larry, we’ll just wait for a > volunteer who > keeps reasonably up-to-date to do this for us. (I tried and failed > - but someone else involved would be better anyway). OK, I've taken the hint. There's now a file in the 'Files' section that contains links to all the messages with English and Pali. File name: z-VismXIVlinks.htm The 'Files' section is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Jon 24192 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Eaglenarius, What a fine name--thanks! I take your point and your kind consideration well and to heart--hope I didn't suggest otherwise. Best Wishes, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:58 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hi (Mike, Nina, Ikaro and All), > > Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't have > wings. > > I know that we cannot be perfect in this world. There is always two opposite > points of view in every action. However in term of Buddhism, I'm very sure > that killing is not a kusala kamma, though in the name of country duty or > nationality. In every killing, there will be always bad consequences, > whether he is a soldier or a civilians. I just feel guilty not to stop a > friend from doing akusala kamma, it will be more fruitful to advise than > support the future akusala kamma. Please, don't misunderstand. > > Sincere bow, > > Eaglenarius > > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:27 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Friends, > > I take your point, E. (is 'Eaglenarius really your name?)--more to the > point, I think: Is it more useful to distinguish kusala from akusala in the > conduct of another being (a concept) or in this moment (a reality)? > > A valuable distinction, I think. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: eaglenarius > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM > Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > > Hallo Nina, > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > > > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin > said, > > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > > matter. > > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a > difference > > here. > > > > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target > is > > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this > > kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher > which > > has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. > > Just thinking. > > > > > > thanks, > > Eaglenarius 24193 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Right you are, Ic--it's all in the moment, no? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Dear Mike: > ------------------------------------------------- > > Hello Again, > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hello... Hellooow... Helloooowwww... > Hello !!! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Mike: " The conclusion (tentative) that I've come to > is that > > liberation by way of > > jhaana requires the extraordinary purity of ordained > > life (polished like a > > conch-shell and so on)--and that with good company > > (of preceptor > > especially). To find these conditions today? Good > > luck. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Did you see ? > Carry on decisions can be very hard sometimes. If > you keep yourself thinking that one must have got this > or that requisites: good company, preceptors, good > conditions and so on, no definite step will be assumed > by you at any path. Siddartha Gautama left his Great > House towards an unbelievable mystery: the outer > world, to find something totally strange and dubious > for himself: the the Existence of all beings´final > answer. > Personally, I take on this matters at other hand: > sometimes I try to keep my thoughts focuses on the end > line, take a deep breath...and CHARGE !!! The End or > Bust !!!... sometimes I stop myself , sit down with > legs folded , take again a deep breath and I keep > trying to cultivate my mind. > > Keep Boostin´!!! > > Metta, Ícaro 24194 From: susan macqueen Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:21am Subject: Hello, I have just joined the group it looks very interesting. I am very new to Buddhism and at the moment I am reading literature on this and felt it would be beneficial to me to discuss, or read ongoing discussions. I'm very much looking forward to getting to know people in this group and of course learning what I can about Buddhist practises and making this a part of my everyday. Sanaya 24195 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: "Right you are, Ic--it's all in the moment, no?" ----------------------------------------------------- YEAH !!!!! But the conservation of Angular Momenta is an other story! ( And my cold disappeared at last... anyone here from NY ?) Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24196 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Mike What I intend to mean is that whatever is not paramttha dhamma is concept or whatever we define. Even Buddha is a concept. rgds Ken O --- "m. nease" wrote: > Agreed, Kenneth--same question, I think? I'm definitely out of my > depth > here--must read up on samasanna. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kenneth Ong > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd > stage of > insight) > > > > Hi mike > > > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > > then the answer lies there. > > > > rgds > > KC > > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > > > mike 24197 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi Howard If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. rgds Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 8/10/03 11:34:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Hi Victor (Howard), > > > > Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it > is an > > illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned > > > boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. > > > > Metta, James > > > > > ======================== > Exactly as I see it. > > With metta, > Howard 24198 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Hi Nina Please explain why it is indetermine. abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, they are indeterminate. rgds Ken O 24199 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Eagle, Victor and all, op 14-08-2003 08:39 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: >N: In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. N: We all agree what killing is and that killing is akusala kamma. Victor misunderstands me when he thinks that I say killing is OK so long as we are not sotapanna. The monk leads a life of non-violence, because of conditions and his life style should be greatly praised. Laypeople cannot live a monk's life in the world. We have to face our life in the world, and at the same time we really try to observe the precepts. We also know that only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We have to remember the Co to the Mahaparinibbana sutta, as quoted by Sarah: Thus, we have to face life in the world, what if there would be no armies, no police, no veterinarians? Suppose one is a soldier, it all depends on conditions whether he will be in the situation that he has to kill. Having to kill or liking to kill: these are different degrees of akusala kamma. There are many degrees of each akusala. The fact that we have already such or such profession is also conditioned. Conditions work in a very complicated way in our lives. We cannot know the citta of someone else in a given situation, we can only know our own citta. That is why Mike asked: We may reason and think of situations in the future, but there will be no end to thinking. Better know this moment. It is the best way to go the right way in our life. Eagle, my Buddhism in Daily life, Ch on Factors of the eightfold Path, right livelihood, may be of interest. The book has (partly) been translated into Bahasa by the Bogor group. Nina. 24200 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:15am Subject: all that is real, to Icaro Dear Icaro, Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata dhamma. I thought of you when working at meanings of dhamma, no 9. By that time you may be struggling, sweating and sighing at Bootkamp. You would then not be able to read this, (but you are back before Christmas?), and thus I post this part now. Do not answer me, you have no time. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as knowable (neyya): <"Kusalaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu ~neyye. In a passage as ³wholesome dhammas etc.² the word dhamma means what is knowable, what is to be known.> N: The Saddaniti, as we have seen above, defines dhamma as sabhaava in the same way: N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is classified as these three dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, abyaakataa dhammaa. They are sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature (or characteristic), and these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is always kusala, akusala is always akusala. They are not abstractions, when their characteristics appear, they are are to be understood, neyya. Their true nature can be known. The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains dhamma as neyya: The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear. Thus, Abhidhamma is not theory, but we have to discover the truth of dhammas gradually. Seeing is avyakata dhamma, it has its own characteristic, it experiences visible object. Its characteristic is unalterable, seeing is always seeing. There is seeing now, it is to be known, neyya. Aversion is akusala dhamma, it has its own unalterable characteristic. When it appears it can be known. Nina. 24201 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co Parinibbana sutta. Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for the useful passages. Yes, I would like b and c, only, your arms!! You should not type too much, no hurry. B: some people have doubts about it. C: seems interesting. Nina. op 14-08-2003 10:53 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: B: no other true ascetics > or way to nibbana outside the Buddha’s teachings and C:Dhamma’ referring > to correctness in welcome. If there’s anything anyone would like me to > check, pls ask....) 24202 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] all that is real, to Icaro Dear Nina: Nina: Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata dhamma. > I thought of you when working at meanings of dhamma, > no 9. By that time you > may be struggling, sweating and sighing at Bootkamp. > You would then not be > able to read this, (but you are back before > Christmas?), and thus I post > this part now. Do not answer me, you have no time. ----------------------------------------------------- Don't worry Nina. My Boot Camp will begin at september and I will come back to Rio only at Next year's january. Untill this time I have got some free time. That's interesting. The First Chapter of The Dhammasangani - Mattika - only speaks about the Abhyakta Dhamma at the first 22 chapters. After that, we got only Hetu and Ahetu Dhammas, that can be Kusala or Akusala also. I usually make comparisions with the Vipassana techniques and this unique signature of the Dhammasangani. The following chapters I call "The Supermarket of Good Thoughts"- long sequences of stanzas beginning with "Katame Kusala Dhamma" that are sometimes easy to read on! My time never was so well applied! ---------------------------------------------------- > N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is > classified as these three > dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, > abyaakataa dhammaa. They are > sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature > (or characteristic), and > these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is > always kusala, akusala is > always akusala. -------------------------------------------------- And you can find some permutations of these two with the Hetu and Ahetu Categories very intriguing. As I have said before, the very first impression I had reading the Dhammasangani, many years ago, was "wow! That is the way the Japanese Haikai are made!!!" ---------------------------------------------------- Nina_ " The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains > dhamma as neyya: in the passage: ³All dhammas in all their modes > enter the threshold of the > Exalted One¹s portal of knowledge,² it is the > knowable. Here the word occurs > in the sense of things endowed with a specific > nature (sabhaava). This is > the word-meaning: ³They bear their own > characteristics, thus they are > dhammas² (attano lakkha.na.m dhaarentii ti > dhammaa).> > The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to > bear" -------------------------------------------------- Very good. Dhamma can be expressed as the own phenomenon perceived by senses - form - rupa (1) eye - cakkhu (8) sound - sadda (2) ear - sota (9) odor - gandha (3) nose - ghana (10) taste - rasa (4) tongue - jivha (11) (tangibility - iphothavva) body - kaya (12) temperature - tezo (5) resistance - pathavi (6) motion - vayo (7) (cohesion - apo) Or as Dhatus of these, namely 12 senses and objects are gross - olarikarupam... and the other is subtle - sukhumarupam. ------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Thus, Abhidhamma is not theory, but we have to > discover the truth of dhammas > gradually. Seeing is avyakata dhamma, it has its own > characteristic, it > experiences visible object. Its characteristic is > unalterable, seeing is > always seeing" --------------------------------------------------- Hmmm... interesting! So the Dhatus of vision are Avyakata Dhamma... perhaps because the passive role assigned to the eye!!! ---------------------------------------------------- There is seeing now, it is to be > known, neyya. Aversion is > akusala dhamma, it has its own unalterable > characteristic. When it appears > it can be known. ---------------------------------------------------- God thanks is Friday !!!! I am almost ending the download of the complete www.tipitaka.org and finally...heheheheheheheh!!!!... All the Pali Canon will rain down down down !!!! (Good material! Myanmar Post Council version!) Metta, Icaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24203 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Hi Kenneth Ong, op 15-08-2003 18:23 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...:> > Please explain why it is indetermine. > > abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, > not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, > they are indeterminate. All dhammas which are neither kusala nor akusala have been classified as indeterminate. Citta and cetasika which are vipaka, those which are kiriya, rupa and nibbana. There is not much to explain, it is just named like that. Nina. 24204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice To all New Yorkers, and Jim in Canada, op 15-08-2003 02:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Howard, > > Are you in the dark? Did you have to walk 20 miles to get home? N: Yes, I thought of you all. Mike is also in New York? I was there at the first blackout, long ago. Lodewijk helped with the traffic. I bumped my head while walking in our flat upstairs. Those were days. Nina. 24205 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Hi Larry, op 15-08-2003 01:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: The > endeavour that leads to manifestation of the path doesn't begin until > the insight knowledge of rise and fall. This is the "understanding" > level. Correct? N: But understanding begins before that. The first stage of tender insight: knowing what is nama what is rupa. As to the text, I would rather wait for Jim. Sarah, I look again with your suggestions. But dassita is shown, dassana: the seeing, I tend to mess around with these. Nina. 24206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] hot Hi Larry, op 15-08-2003 02:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I read that 3000 people died in France due to the heat wave. How is it > where you are? Be careful. N: You made me laugh. Yes, very hot, especially in front of a computer or while blowing the recorder for my father. And we have to be careful with electricity. Tomorrow we go for a long walk, to see heather in bloom. Nina. 24207 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/15/03 12:16:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at > all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a > self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So > there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are > just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. > > > > rgds > Ken O ============================ Just to clarify my beliefs and my use of language: 1) I do not believe there is self/own-being to be found anywhere, 2) I see no requirement for there to be a "self" in order for there to be control - the sankharas, cetana in particular, all quite impersonal, exercise a forming or directing or "controlling" influence, and 3) I prefer to speak of influence rather than control, for if 'control' is intended to signify absolute control then I agree that such does not exist. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24208 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, This is how I see it: Living alone in solitude does not mean that one lives without friendship and association with the good and virtuous(kalyamittata). Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is not living alone. It is attachment. To realize the cessation of dukkha, living alone in solitude is better than living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. Let me give a simile. If one smokes cigarette for sometime, he or she will eventually get addicted to smoking. With this addiction, one might keep smoking without knowing that smoking is harmful to health. Or one knows that smoking is harmful to health but keep smoking and does not want to stop. Or one realizes that smoking is harmful to health and wants to stop. If so, he or she has to go through a period of addiction withdrawal, which is not always pleasant. Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is like having the habit of smoking cigarette. Living along in solitude is like not having the habit of smoking cigarette. Living alone in solitude but with by reoccurring sensual thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of doing harm is like going through addiction withdrawal, with reoccurring craving for nicoltine. Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession and saying it is possible to live like that without attachment is like having the habit of smoking cigarette and saying it is possible to smoke like that without addiction. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * Udana IV.1 Meghiya Sutta About Meghiya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud4-01.html 24209 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Nina and all, Nina, it is not that I misunderstood you. It is more that I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. My questions to you and all: Can one refrain oneself from killing? Can one choose a profession that does not require one to kill? Peace, Victor PS. Nina, while you addressed the message directly to me as indicated in the salutation, you addressed me in third person in the body of the message. It is like talking to someone and addressing him or her in third person. 24210 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Understood, Ken--thanks. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Ong To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > Hi Mike > > What I intend to mean is that whatever is not paramttha dhamma is > concept or whatever we define. Even Buddha is a concept. > > rgds > Ken O 24211 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics ---snip ---- > > > > Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work > > to try and make things work in politics and government; People work > > hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. > > While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free > > of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have > > stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free > > from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, in addition to what I have said before > about them, are the primary preservers of the Dhamma, and for this I think we > should be enormously grateful. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will > > work? Who will stress? > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Do you think there is much likelihood of this? ;-) Also, what would > happen if everybody adopted exactly the career, *whatever* that career might be? > Suppose we all become insurance salesmen? ;-)) > ----------------------------------------------- lol ...thats very funny. I though of this too; it just would not happen (at least in the current world we live in). Obviously the buddhist path (in the extremest sense) is not for everybody, and could not be. It would not create a sustainable society. It is as though that those who do choose to take the path, "get off the hook"; They lay down the burden. I wonder though if it is possible for all people to lay down the burden. nori 24212 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice Hi Howard, I'm glad you're ok, but I'm very sorry to read about your mother in law. The Tibetans have a meditation practice called "sending and taking" (tonglen) in which one breaths in all the suffering of others sends by the out breath your own goodness to others. After a while it becomes a matter of sending and taking energy and riding the breath isn't necessary. I know at times like this there can be a feeling of helplessness. So this is something you could do. It is a form of subtle communication and probably has its roots in the Brahma Vihara. Larry 24213 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control In a message dated 8/15/2003 11:26:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 8/15/03 12:16:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > >Hi Howard > > > >If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at > >all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a > >self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So > >there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are > >just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. > > > > > > > >rgds > >Ken O > ============================ > Just to clarify my beliefs and my use of language: 1) I do not believe > there is self/own-being to be found anywhere, 2) I see no requirement for > there to be a "self" in order for there to be control - the sankharas, > cetana in > particular, all quite impersonal, exercise a forming or directing or > "controlling" influence, and 3) I prefer to speak of influence rather than > control, for > if 'control' is intended to signify absolute control then I agree that such > does not exist. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard and Ken O Regarding the above, only point 1 is correct IMO. Point 2 is incorrect because volitions are merely reactions to other conditions. How can "reactions" be "in control"? Point 3... Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. If dominos are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling into each other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the domino that hits it and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind of control. The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The notion of control is not supportable by an argument about influence. To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute control" as akin to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute self. Both ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" idea is more subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion of control has to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither exist...i.e., self or control. rgds TG 24214 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Victor: Victor: "My questions to you and all: > Can one refrain oneself from killing? Can one > choose a profession > that does not require one to kill?" ----------------------------------------------------- Victor, it´s difficult make a statement on these questions that not sounds as a pious preachery or a vacuous instruction of how to hammer on our heads with a mantra to keep them quiet and peaceful ("Meditation and Hammering Heads for Dummies" or something alike ). Perhaps if you take note of your own Citta´s processes, how do they play with their cetasikas, the way of the Nama and Rupa´s interplay... you will find that to Kill or require one person to kill is not a Kusala Dhamma: it´s a impulse that follows a definite mind process from Bhavanga to the last end - a Registering form of conscience that´s not good at all. Corrections are welcome... Metta, Ícaro > > Peace, > Victor > > PS. Nina, while you addressed the message directly > to me as > indicated in the salutation, you addressed me in > third person in the > body of the message. It is like talking to someone > and addressing > him or her in third person. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24215 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/15/03 3:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I'm glad you're ok, but I'm very sorry to read about your mother in law. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! ---------------------------------------------- > The Tibetans have a meditation practice called "sending and taking" > (tonglen) in which one breaths in all the suffering of others sends by > the out breath your own goodness to others. After a while it becomes a > matter of sending and taking energy and riding the breath isn't > necessary. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: The description of the practice has the sound (to me) of legitimacy and reality. --------------------------------------------- I know at times like this there can be a feeling of> > helplessness. So this is something you could do. It is a form of subtle > communication and probably has its roots in the Brahma Vihara. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I have heard tonglen referred to as Tibetan metta practice! Larry, thank you very much for your kind thoughts and for your good suggestion. I will add this to my meditations. We visit with her several times a day, talk to her and encourage her all the time, and I do think that is helpful. In any case, it turns out that today is a much better day for her. The breathing tube and another tube have been removed, her fever is gone, heart rate slowed, and she is unsedated now. Some depression/sadness has set in, which I explained to her is par for the course post-surgically, and as the result of medications, including sedation, and it doesn't last, but aside from that today is a *much* better day. ------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ====================== With metta and much gratefulness, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24216 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, TG - In a message dated 8/15/03 4:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Howard and Ken O > > Regarding the above, only point 1 is correct IMO. > > Point 2 is incorrect because volitions are merely reactions to other > conditions. How can "reactions" be "in control"? > > Point 3... Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. If dominos > > are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling into each > other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the domino that > hits it > and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind of control. > > The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The notion of > control is not supportable by an argument about influence. > > To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute control" as akin > > to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute self. Both > > ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" idea is > more > subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion of control > has > to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither > exist...i.e., > self or control. > > rgds > TG > ======================== If whatever you mean by 'control' requires a self, then I do not believe in such control - my position would be that of "no-control". I do believe, however, that sankharas, particularly cetana, all impersonal and arisen due to causes and conditions and lacking independence, are formative functions and exercise influence on events. If a position of no-control denies this, then I disagree with *such* a version of no-control. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24217 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Ícaro, These questions do not require a reply that sounds like a pious sermon or a vacuous instruction of how to hammer on our heads with a mantra to keep them quiet and peaceful. A "yes" or "no" answer would suffice. Peace, Victor 24218 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Victor, and all, Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember someone confusing me(or me confusing myself over their post?) when I understood them to say a few months back (something like) "working in an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right Livelihood". I vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how it could be so ... but assume I missed something abhidhammically deep and meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. My objection starts with the choice of occupation. I assume even with 'no-control' there is the possibility of a thoughtful choice for most people. Of course, when there are certain conditions like conscription, or starvation, there is little choice. I am sure soldiers are mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas ... perhaps his opinion is worth considering? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ícaro, > > These questions do not require a reply that sounds like a pious > sermon or a vacuous instruction of how to hammer on our heads with a > mantra to keep them quiet and peaceful. A "yes" or "no" answer > would suffice. > > Peace, > Victor 24219 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Jon: "OK, I've taken the hint. There's now a file in the 'Files' section that contains links to all the messages with English and Pali." Hi Jon, What I find most useful is just an index to your original Eng/Pali post without any comment. The replies may not copy the text. Also, the email number needs to be identified with the chapter and paragraph number. So, if I want to copy a certain paragraph in an email I can just look it up in the index. Hopefully, this index will eventually be too big for Useful Posts and will have to have its own file. For now there should only be six entries: Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 (24108) Larry ps: Sarah, sorry for not replying to your reply. I didn't get it. It seems like one or two emails a week don't make it through my ISP. L. 24220 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heat and Dark in samsara Hi Sarah, Yes, I was among the 50 million affected by the blackout. The power was back on when I got up this morning and has remained on since then. My biggest concern during the blackout was the contents of my frig! I could be subject to 2hr rotating blackouts over the next few days. I think it'll be awhile before they find out the exact cause. It seems that it has something to do with a heavy power demand on a hot day and antiquated transmission lines. I think the energy problems will only continue to get worse in the months and years ahead. They say this kind of blackout could just as easily happen during an extremely cold spell in the winter. Best wishes, Jim in Ontario, Canada 24221 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Victor: Victor:" A "yes" or > "no" answer > would suffice." ---------------------------------------------------- Yes! It´s perfectly possible avoid wrong livelihood. Since to Kill and require another person to kill are included at these, so it´s possible avoid them. But this first step begins in our minds. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24222 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi Ken (good to see you), Howard, & TG, The way I read the books, there are several inexorable (unchangable) results of a strong intentional action. These results mostly arise in future lives. The only reason they would not arise is because of nibbana. In that sense intention (or kamma) almost absolutely controls several results. On the other hand, the cause of a good deal of our suffering or anger is frustrated intentions. So in that sense intentions are very feeble instruments of desire. Desire is never really fulfilled but goodness or badness can be cultivated. Larry 24223 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Christine Christine:" Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember > someone > confusing me(or me confusing myself over their > post?) when I > understood them to say a few months back (something > like) "working in > an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right > Livelihood". I > vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how > it could be > so ..." ------------------------------------------------------- Chris, as a matter of fact, the Vinaya rules prescribe all possible occupations a good buddhist can perform - I never read all the Pattimokha (and Nina sometimes grills me about it...) but I can remember some stanzas about don´t deal with Pharmacology, making of remedies, poisons and so on. --------------------------------------------------- Christine: " but assume I missed something > abhidhammically deep and > meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. > My objection starts with the choice of occupation. > I assume even with > 'no-control' there is the possibility of a > thoughtful choice for most > people. Of course, when there are certain conditions > like > conscription, or starvation, there is little > choice. I am sure > soldiers are mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas > ... perhaps his > opinion is worth considering?" --------------------------------------------------- About these questions, take a good plunge on Vinaya and free your mind ! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heat and Dark in samsara Hello Jim, Howard, and anyone else in the twilight zone, Ah! these soft North Americans! It'll be a good reminder to you all of how much of the world lives all the time. I'm sure the Queensland Government has our best interests at heart over here because they put us through a 'training run' three or four times a year. (I must remember to thank them.) You probably know all this and more. Once you know the black-out will last for a while, open the freezer once only, and take out bread and meat (if eaten) for a day or so. They'll be fine in a cool dark place, on a covered plate over a bowl filled with ice cubes if you had any to start with. Have OHT milk on hand. Lots of tinned and fresh fruit, nuts and veges will help. Don't lose your can opener (the dog will be angry) or matches! Have oil lamps, torches and candles always on hand. I can do without cooking - my main irritation when the power goes off is losing the water pump for the drinking water, toilets and showers, and having to cart buckets of water for these purposes from a tank. And no computer. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yes, I was among the 50 million affected by the blackout. The power > was back on when I got up this morning and has remained on since then. > My biggest concern during the blackout was the contents of my frig! I > could be subject to 2hr rotating blackouts over the next few days. I > think it'll be awhile before they find out the exact cause. It seems > that it has something to do with a heavy power demand on a hot day and > antiquated transmission lines. I think the energy problems will only > continue to get worse in the months and years ahead. They say this > kind of blackout could just as easily happen during an extremely cold > spell in the winter. > > Best wishes, > Jim in Ontario, Canada 24225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > What I find most useful is just an index to your original Eng/Pali > post > without any comment. The replies may not copy the text. Also, the > email > number needs to be identified with the chapter and paragraph > number. So, > if I want to copy a certain paragraph in an email I can just look > it up > in the index. Hopefully, this index will eventually be too big for > Useful Posts and will have to have its own file. For now there > should > only be six entries: > > Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 > (24108) Sorry if I’m being a bit slow on the uptake, but I believe that what I’ve put in the Files section is exactly what you have asked for, in functional terms. Here is what you see when you open it: Vism XIV, 1 (Msg No. 23711) Vism XIV, 2 (Msg No. 23805) Vism XIV, 3 (Msg No. 24104) Vism XIV, 4 (Msg No. 24106) Vism XIV, 5 (Msg No. 24107) Vism XIV, 6 (Msg No. 24108) Are you sure the file you checked was the right one? Please come back with further elaboration if I have missed something. Jon PS It's just occurred to me that perhaps what you saw was my 'practice run' (before I put out the message) to see if I could work out how it should be done. It was only up there for a few minutes! 24226 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > > Perhaps if you take note of your own Citta´s > processes, how do they play with their cetasikas, the > way of the Nama and Rupa´s interplay... you will find > that to Kill or require one person to kill is not a > Kusala Dhamma: it´s a impulse that follows a definite > mind process from Bhavanga to the last end - a > Registering form of conscience that´s not good at all. > _____ Dear Icaro, I think what you said is the key. I think of police, for example, as protectors of society, but sometimes they do akusala kamma such as when locking people up. As a teacher I like to think I have right livelihood (ha) but of course much of my time is spent in selfish career goals, and even in the classroom we sometimes talk about things (part of my duty) that are frivolous. Beautiful to study it all ('take note' as you put it) and see how conditions are happening without any self (even the conceit about 'having right livelihood' can be known as a conditioned element). In Thailand the King is the Supreme Commander of the Armed forces and he is looked upon with great love by almost all Thai's (and many of us farang too!). In the Dhammapada (47) Atthakatta there is the story of prince Vitutabbha who had a grudge against the Buddha's relatives the Sakyans. He raised an army and went to wipe them out. Now the Sakyans were great warriors and wise. They were almost all sotapanna (first stage of enlightenment) according to the commentary. When Vitutabbha's army attacked the Sakyans went forward with great vigor showing their military prowess and the army of Vitutabbha retreated in panic. But the minister of the prince knew that the Sakyans couldn't kill so he told the prince and army that the sakyans were deliberately missing. It was true , the arrows were hitting close to the men , even passing through their hair but not inflicting death. Once this was realised the prince's army returned and slaughtered the noble Sakyan, and Vitutabbha washed the Sakyan's hall with their own blood. It is how the Sakyan clan was almost eradicated from North India. Robertk 24227 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Hi Jon, Sorry, I didn't see it. What I was looking at was the entry in Useful Posts. Larry ----------------------- Jon: Sorry if I'm being a bit slow on the uptake, but I believe that what I've put in the Files section is exactly what you have asked for, in functional terms. 24228 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi Howard You right that conditions influence our volition and volition then conditions our next volition and so on.... Such an influence is always deceptively seen as a control which in fact is only a condition rgds Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, TG - > > In a message dated 8/15/03 4:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > TGrand458@a... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard and Ken O > > > > Regarding the above, only point 1 is correct IMO. > > > > Point 2 is incorrect because volitions are merely reactions to > other > > conditions. How can "reactions" be "in control"? > > > > Point 3... Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. > If dominos > > > > are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling > into each > > other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the > domino that > > hits it > > and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind > of control. > > > > The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The > notion of > > control is not supportable by an argument about influence. > > > > To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute > control" as akin > > > > to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute > self. Both > > > > ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" > idea is > > more > > subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion > of control > > has > > to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither > > exist...i.e., > > self or control. > > > > rgds > > TG > > > ======================== > If whatever you mean by 'control' requires a self, then I do > not > believe in such control - my position would be that of > "no-control". I do believe, > however, that sankharas, particularly cetana, all impersonal and > arisen due to > causes and conditions and lacking independence, are formative > functions and > exercise influence on events. If a position of no-control denies > this, then I > disagree with *such* a version of no-control. > > With metta, > Howard > 24229 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, Ken (and TG) - In a message dated 8/15/03 10:40:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > You right that conditions influence our volition and volition then > conditions our next volition and so on.... > > Such an influence is always deceptively seen as a control which in > fact is only a condition > > > > rgds > Ken O > ========================= No disagreement here, Ken. It's all conditions - of various sorts, of course - but just impersonal conditions/functions playing their parts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24230 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Christine, Abhidhammically, the active process for us is either kusala or akusala. Whenever there is kusala at the strength that it violates the 5 precepts connected to how you make a living, then there is already a wrong livelihood. This could happen to anyone, not just soldiers or slaughterers. Don't you think there would be a soldier who would never once kill (another human being) in his life? Many soldiers turn out to be diplomats: one who tries to cajole together peace rather than war. I think that is a noble intention. It is harder to see how somebody who slaughters regularly can be said to have a right livelihood, but on the other hand, even for a slaughterer, there might be kusala states alternating at different moments too. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 3:54 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Hello Victor, and all, > > Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember someone > confusing me(or me confusing myself over their post?) when I > understood them to say a few months back (something like) "working in > an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right Livelihood". I > vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how it could be > so ... but assume I missed something abhidhammically deep and > meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. > My objection starts with the choice of occupation. I assume even with > 'no-control' there is the possibility of a thoughtful choice for most > people. Of course, when there are certain conditions like > conscription, or starvation, there is little choice. I am sure > soldiers are mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas ... perhaps his > opinion is worth considering? > > metta and peace, > Christine 24231 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] HI Sanaya, Welcome to the group. I think you will find a friendly bunch here who come from all walk of life in search of the same thing. I hope you find many useful info here. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: susan macqueen [mailto:sues.greenbank@v...] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 7:21 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] > > > Hello, I have just joined the group it looks very interesting. I > am very new to Buddhism and at the moment I am reading literature > on this and felt it would be beneficial to me to discuss, or read > ongoing discussions. I'm very much looking forward to getting to > know people in this group and of course learning what I can about > Buddhist practises and making this a part of my everyday. > > Sanaya > 24232 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > > > It is harder to see how somebody who slaughters regularly can be said to > have a right livelihood, but on the other hand, even for a slaughterer, > there might be kusala states alternating at different moments too. > > kom > _________ Dear Kom, As you say, different moments. The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Ledi sayadaw explains: ""Loss of Opportunity to Attain the Seed of Vijja(wisdom) Through Ignorance of the Value of the Present Times Some teachers, who are aware only of the existence of direct and unequivocal statements in the Pali Texts regarding the order of practice of the seven visuddhi (purifications), but who take no account of the value of the present times, say that in the practices of samatha and vipassana (calm and insight) no results can be achieved unless sila-visuddhi (purification of virtue) is first fulfilled, whatever be the intensity of the effort. Some of the uninformed ordinary folk are beguiled by such statements. Thus has dhammantaraya (danger to the Dhamma) occurred. Even in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya (danger to the Dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the liability of oneself and all creatures to death. I have come across the case of a leading fisherman who, as a result of such encouragement, could repeat fluently from memory the Pali Text and'nissaya' (word for word translation) of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha, and the Paccaya Niddesa of the Patthana (Book of Relations), while still following the profession of a fisherman. These accomplishments constitute very good foundations for the acquisition of vijja (knowledge). At the present time, whenever I meet my dayaka upasakas (lay disciples who contribute to a bhikkhu's upkeep), I tell them, in the true tradition of a bhikkhu, that even though they are hunters and fishermen by profession, they should be ever mindful of the noble qualities of the Three Jewels and three characteristics of existence. To be mindful of the noble qualities of the ti-ratana (Triple Gem) constitutes the seed of carana. To be mindful of the three characteristics of existence constitutes the seed of vijja. They should be helped towards better understanding, should they be in difficulties. """ RobertK 24233 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- > From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:47 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > wrote: ... > Even in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said > that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) > manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they > discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya > (danger to the Dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other > hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the > Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to > contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of > loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the > liability of oneself and all creatures to death. I have come across > the case of a leading fisherman who, as a result of such > encouragement, could repeat fluently from memory the Pali Text > and'nissaya' (word for word translation) of the Abhidhammatha > Sangaha, and the Paccaya Niddesa of the Patthana (Book of > Relations), while still following the profession of a fisherman. > These accomplishments constitute very good foundations for the > acquisition of vijja (knowledge). > At the present time, whenever I meet my dayaka upasakas (lay > disciples who contribute to a bhikkhu's upkeep), I tell them, in the > true tradition of a bhikkhu, that even though they are hunters and > fishermen by profession, they should be ever mindful of the noble > qualities of the Three Jewels and three characteristics of > existence. To be mindful of the noble qualities of the ti-ratana > (Triple Gem) constitutes the seed of carana. To be mindful of the > three characteristics of existence constitutes the seed of vijja. > They should be helped towards better understanding, should they be > in difficulties. """ > RobertK > Great stuffs! kom 24234 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi, Howard (and Sarah), -------------- > Did you have a poor experience at a Goenka > retreat, Ken? I'd be interested in reading what that > was. -------------- I did the 10-day course in 1991 and it was memorable in many ways; there were intense highs and intense lows. It was the sort of experience that most people need in order to know something different from their humdrum existences. But this sort of therapy is not necessarily what the Buddha taught. I might recount one incident that I'd like your comments on: At the beginning, I was overawed by Goenka -- he was brilliant, witty and charismatic -- but later, I began to hate him. Just as this undeserved, seething hatred was at its highest, I heard his recorded message saying; "Well, this is the morning of day five and a lot of you will be having some intensely negative thoughts -- mostly directed at me." There was nervous laughter in the room as he explained how these feelings came about and I assumed everyone, like me, was identifying with what he said. But on day ten, when we were allowed to talk, none of the others I spoke to seemed to remember the incident; nor did they particularly remember any intense hatred. Does this ring any bells with you? ------------- > Most of the favorable changes in me (there have > been some! ;-) I can fairly attribute to my attending a > 10-day Goenka retreat, > > > > I would > be *quite* opposed to describing it in the negative > terms that you employ. ---------------- Thinking about this has brought back a lot of memories. I've just written, and then deleted, a long paragraph which was mostly negative and unnecessary. I will just say that the Vipassana Centre that I attended, and briefly dropped in on several years later, was not a friendly place. To be fair, they must deal with a lot of disturbed people who make trouble and have to be asked to leave, but the place lacked the open, trusting friendliness that I associate with Dhamma groups. K: >> After this was brought to my attention, I decided >> that the totally misleading idea of control was >> inseparable from all of [then] my meditation >> practices. D'oh! That should have read, . . "all of my [then] meditation practices." (By the way; Sarah, now that you have found the square brackets on your keyboard, I look forward to seeing how they are properly used :-) ) Kind regards, Ken H 24235 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Control Ken O, I agree that control and self are inseparable. Furthermore, I am tempted to think that they are embodied in concepts. The objects (concepts), I conceive as I look around my room are abiding entities. They were here yesterday and will be here tomorrow. They are self and they exercise control over time. While we are thinking in concepts, it is impossible to understand realities. But of course, even Arahants think in concepts, so there goes my theory :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Howard > > If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at > all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a > self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So > there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are > just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. > > > 24236 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Christine, When I first joined our local Dhamma group, I was theoretically engaged in wrong livelihood. I was breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) The group's founding members (and our good friends), Klaas, Reg and Andrew, are, as you know, fierce defenders of all creatures great and small. I sensed their disapproval and secretly felt misunderstood. While they were sitting in their city office towers, I was molly- coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. This involved scratching behind their ears, feeding them treats, protecting them from predators and parasites, maintaining the best pastures in the district -- day in, day out. Admittedly, there was one day in every year when some had to go to the abattoir. I accompanied them in the carrier's truck to make sure they were unloaded humanely but from there, they were on their own. I suffered terribly but not as much as they did. My point is, while I was engaged in so-called "wrong livelihood" there were many moments of kindness. They might not have been moments of right livelihood, but they weren't wrong livelihood either :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember someone > confusing me(or me confusing myself over their post?) when I > understood them to say a few months back (something like) "working in > an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right Livelihood". I > vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how it could be > so ... but assume I missed something abhidhammically deep and > meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. > My objection starts with the choice of occupation. 24237 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:54am Subject: Welcome Sanaya Hi Sanaya (& Kom), Like Kom, let me welcome you here to DSG. Thanks for your nice intro note. Anyone new to Buddhism is most welcome and no questions or answers are too simple for us here;-) I’d be glad to hear what literature you are reading and finding useful and any other particular interests. We’d also like to get to know you. Perhaps you could let us know where you live and anything else about what you feel is beneficial about Buddhism. The rest of us are scattered all over the world. I’m in Hong Kong (but originally from England) and Kom’s in California (originally from Thailand). You may find it useful to look at Useful Posts and go down to “new to the list and new to dhamma’ and also ‘Abhidhamma for beginners’. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also, there’s a simple Pali glossary here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms The list is pretty active at the moment, so you may well wish to skip all complicated/technical posts for the time being. Also, if any newcomers find they are getting too much mail, you may wish to change your mail setting to ‘no mail’ (and look at the homepage) or get it in ‘digest’ form, which means one long mail a day only. Details can be found under ‘mail delivery’ here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Metta, Sarah p.s Let us know if you prefer to be addressed as Sanaya or Susan. ======= --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Welcome to the group. I think you will find a friendly bunch here who > come > from all walk of life in search of the same thing. I hope you find many > useful info here. Sanaya: > > Hello, I have just joined the group it looks very interesting. I > > am very new to Buddhism and at the moment I am reading literature > > on this and felt it would be beneficial to me to discuss, or read > > ongoing discussions. I'm very much looking forward to getting to > > know people in this group and of course learning what I can about > > Buddhist practises and making this a part of my everyday. 24238 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:59am Subject: Weclcome (was: duty of soldiers) Hi Elias, Welcome here too! --- elias broman wrote: > i'm not here to have fun, (or to seek suffering) > i'm here to find truth. > > thinking this way, > one reflects on the truth, > living for it, and seeking for it. .... I hope you’ll continue to reflect on ‘the truth’ with us and to share your understanding of it from the Dhamma. Please also share a little more about yourself - where you live and your particular interest in the Buddha’s truth for example. Best wishes, Sarah ====== 24239 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear KenH, RobK, Icaro, Kom and all, Ken, I understand what you are saying - did you continue to breed and fatten cows for market and do you raise cattle for slaughter now? I'm know that you don't. Similarly, before I had heard the Dhamma, I too sent some bull calves for slaughter, raised fowls for the table, and it all seemed quite normal - not now though. I try unsuccessfully not to hear in memory the sounds of the cow and calf calling frantically to each other as the truck drove off - or the shrieks of the chickens being caught and carried to the chopping block. I too treated them all with kindness until it came time to treat them otherwise. But it is a false kindness, as the intention all along was to kill them or have them killed. How would we feel about the 'kindness' of someone we grew to trust, who, all along intended our families deaths even while laughing and chatting with us? I take the term Livelihood to be used by the Buddha in the everyday sense ... an actual occupation. I don't see that he meant it as a millisecond. I understand Ledi Sayadaw to be urging the use of skillful means when teaching dhamma to people already in the hunting and fishing professions (and probably so for generations). A direct criticism could turn people away from the Dhamma when they have little other choice of Livelihood. But Ledi Sayadaw does not say that hunting and fishing are acceptable professions to plan to enter in some future time - he is speaking of those already engaged in such activities when a Bhikkhu comes across them. "Samma ajiva -- Right livelihood miccha ajivam pahaya -- giving up wrong livelihood, samma ajivena jivitam kappeti -- one earns one's living by a right form of livelihood." From Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path: "Right Livelihood (samma ajiva). Right livelihood is concerned with ensuring that one earns one's living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple the Buddha teaches that wealth should be gained in accordance with certain standards. One should acquire it only by legal means, not illegally; one should acquire it peacefully, without coercion or violence; one should acquire it honestly, not by trickery or deceit; and one should acquire it in ways which do not entail harm and suffering for others. The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of livelihood which bring harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: dealing in weapons, in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), in meat production and butchery, in poisons, and in intoxicants (AN 5:177). He further names several dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under wrong livelihood: practising deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, and usury (MN 117). Obviously any occupation that requires violation of right speech and right action is a wrong form of livelihood, but other occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, may not violate those factors and yet be wrong because of their consequences for others." http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp0.php metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > When I first joined our local Dhamma group, I was > theoretically engaged in wrong livelihood. I was > breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) > > The group's founding members (and our good friends), > Klaas, Reg and Andrew, are, as you know, fierce defenders > of all creatures great and small. I sensed their > disapproval and secretly felt misunderstood. While they > were sitting in their city office towers, I was molly- > coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. This > involved scratching behind their ears, feeding them > treats, protecting them from predators and parasites, > maintaining the best pastures in the district -- day in, > day out. Admittedly, there was one day in every year > when some had to go to the abattoir. I accompanied them > in the carrier's truck to make sure they were unloaded > humanely but from there, they were on their own. I > suffered terribly but not as much as they did. > > My point is, while I was engaged in so-called "wrong > livelihood" there were many moments of kindness. They > might not have been moments of right livelihood, but they > weren't wrong livelihood either :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 24240 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/16/03 3:52:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi, Howard (and Sarah), > > -------------- > > Did you have a poor experience at a Goenka > >retreat, Ken? I'd be interested in reading what that > >was. > -------------- > > I did the 10-day course in 1991 and it was memorable in > many ways; there were intense highs and intense lows. It > was the sort of experience that most people need in order > to know something different from their humdrum > existences. But this sort of therapy is not necessarily > what the Buddha taught. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I guess that's rather hard to say. I would say that the intention is to follow the Buddha's Dhamma, but of course the best of intentions still do allow for error. -------------------------------------------------- > > I might recount one incident that I'd like your comments > on: At the beginning, I was overawed by Goenka -- he was > brilliant, witty and charismatic -- but later, I began to > hate him. Just as this undeserved, seething hatred was > at its highest, I heard his recorded message saying; > "Well, this is the morning of day five and a lot of you > will be having some intensely negative thoughts -- mostly > directed at me." > > There was nervous laughter in the room as he explained > how these feelings came about and I assumed everyone, > like me, was identifying with what he said. But on day > ten, when we were allowed to talk, none of the others I > spoke to seemed to remember the incident; nor did they > particularly remember any intense hatred. Does this ring > any bells with you? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't recall comments about negative feelings towards Goenka. In my case, while I found him to be pleasant, knowledgeable,and articulate (on the videotape) I never fell in love with the man nor, on the other hand, did I develop the slightest aversion towards him. He was just someone teaching an approach which I gave myself over to for the purpose of a fair trial. It happens that the husband-wife team of "Assistant Instructors" running the course was excellent, kind, and helpful. It also happens that internal conditions were apparently in place for me to benefit optimally from this training at that time. How such a retreat would have served me on another occasion I cannot say. ----------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > > Most of the favorable changes in me (there have > >been some! ;-) I can fairly attribute to my attending a > >10-day Goenka retreat, > > > > > > > > I would > >be *quite* opposed to describing it in the negative > >terms that you employ. > ---------------- > > Thinking about this has brought back a lot of memories. > I've just written, and then deleted, a long paragraph > which was mostly negative and unnecessary. I will just > say that the Vipassana Centre that I attended, and > briefly dropped in on several years later, was not a > friendly place. To be fair, they must deal with a lot of > disturbed people who make trouble and have to be asked to > leave, but the place lacked the open, trusting > friendliness that I associate with Dhamma groups. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A lesson, I suppose, in the importance of differences in supporting conditions. I attended the retreat at the Massachusetts "Dhamma Dhara" center in the United States. Everybody was lovely, cooperative, supportive, and serious but in a yielding an understanding way. I did find that there was a point during the retreat in which *enormous* anxiety arose in me, but following suggestions given by the Assistant Teachers I was able to achieve significant increased calm, through a brief modification of the basic technique, and once past that hump, things settled down, and progress was made. I think that a number of fortuitous conditions had come together in my case to make my experience very worthhile. I'm really sorry that such was not the case for you. But I would suppose that none of us is in a position to consistently figure out what events are ultimately really good or really not so good for ourselves in the long run. It may be that this was what was "right" for me at that time, but something else was needed for you. Your contact with Khun Sujin and her students may be just what you "needed", and perhaps had your Goenka experience seemed more positive, the direction of your Dhammic life might have been different and possibly worse for you. We just can't know - the web of kamma and of causes and conditions in general is far too complex for us to discern clearly enough. ---------------------------------------------- > > K: > >> After this was brought to my attention, I decided > >>that the totally misleading idea of control was > >>inseparable from all of [then] my meditation > >>practices. > > D'oh! That should have read, . . "all of my [then] > meditation practices." (By the way; Sarah, now that you > have found the square brackets on your keyboard, I look > forward to seeing how they are properly used :-) ) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24241 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Christine (and Icaro, and all) - In a message dated 8/16/03 6:37:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > I take the term Livelihood to be used by the Buddha in the everyday > sense ... an actual occupation. I don't see that he meant it as a > millisecond. I understand Ledi Sayadaw to be urging the use of > skillful means when teaching dhamma to people already in the hunting > and fishing professions (and probably so for generations). A direct > criticism could turn people away from the Dhamma when they have > little other choice of Livelihood. But Ledi Sayadaw does not say > that hunting and fishing are acceptable professions to plan to enter > in some future time - he is speaking of those already engaged in such > activities when a Bhikkhu comes across them. > ======================== I very much agree with you, Christine. To use an extreme, perhaps a quite silly example, I'm sure that even Adolph Hitler had many kusala moments! To me, the "Livelihood" of "Right Livelihood" refers to one's occupation, a conventional phenomenon, and not to mind-moments or features of them. What I would also say, however, is that human beings are complex and are engaged in a huge web of activities, their livelihood being an important one, but just one. We are all off the mark in many respects, and there is much for which each of us needs to "foregive" ourself. I, myself, would resist the military life as a career, and I would be reluctant to ever use more force than is needed for protection of innocents and for self-defense, but I am not a pacifist, and I do *not* rule out the use of defensive force in my own life or in society. With regard to soldiering, how many of us would happily support unilaterally disbanding our nation's standing army, and then hoping for the best? Frankly, when it really comes down to it, I suspect that close to none of us would, and considering what the consequences of such a disbanding would be, quite possibly none of us *should*. So, to the extent that we support a defensive military, or even to the extent that we do not oppose it's existence, if the military life is wrong livelihood, then we support wrong livelihood. So, the matter is not a simple, cut and dried one, and we need to keep Right Intention in mind along with Right Livelihood, I think. We need to take our best shot at "doing the right thing," but we are not, any of us, going attain perfection of action at this stage. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24242 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Eagle, Let me also belatedly welcome you here. I’m glad to read your contributions. --- eaglenarius wrote: > Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't > have > wings. .... No problem - Icaro/Icarus can’t either;-) Thank you also for initially telling us a little about yourself. I noticed that you live near Jakarta and sincerely hope there are no more terrorist attacks there. We have a few other fairly quiet members from Indonesia. I hope you can encourage them with your contributions;-) Please don’t think you need to share anything brilliant (as you mentioned before) - we all lack knowledge and just try to support and encourage each other as friends. Sometimes too, the simplest questions and comments are the best. Actually, I can tell from your comments that you are quite familiar with the Dhamma and just being modest, I think. .... > I know that we cannot be perfect in this world. There is always two > opposite > points of view in every action. However in term of Buddhism, I'm very > sure > that killing is not a kusala kamma, though in the name of country duty > or > nationality. In every killing, there will be always bad consequences, > whether he is a soldier or a civilians. I just feel guilty not to stop a > friend from doing akusala kamma, it will be more fruitful to advise than > support the future akusala kamma. Please, don't misunderstand. ..... I’m appreciating all the comments including yours. No need to feel guilty (more akusala) as we often cannot prevent even our own akusala kamma, let alone another’s. We can try to help and advise if asked and if it’s not appreciated, sometimes it’s just the time for equanimity, don’t you think? Look forward to hearing more from you. In the other notes, I forgot to mention that the posts can also be read, searched or a thread followed here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Metta, Sarah ======================================================= 24243 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I did not have a chance to write anything until this evening. Your post covers a lot of ground -- I hope I can say something on most of it! --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, ... L: The way I see it, vitakka and vicara is a crude form of concentration. My reasoning is that "jhana factor" = "jhana characteristic" and, as jhana factor, vitakka and vicara get the ball rolling, so to speak. Experientially, whenever I had something that seemed like an insight it was preceded by vitakka and vicara. J: Jhana is the culmination of tranquillity development (samatha bhavana). As I understand it, jhana factors have no particular relevance to tranquillity development until one approaches jhana, in other words, at levels of a high degree of absorption. We should not overestimate our present level of development. Some are tempted to look for confirmation of their experiences in the Visuddhi-Magga. We should realise that we are not yet on page 1 as far as that text is concerned ;-). See the concentration section beginning at Vism III, esp. at par. 27, 28 and 29. The text assumes that the practitioner has already severed the 10 impediments, namely, a home, relatives, possessions, students/subordinate, responsibilities, travel, colleagues and family, illness, formal study of the teachings, and attainments; and that is just for starters. Some people think that what were necessary conditions in those days do not apply now, that what could only be achieved with extreme difficulty then is within anyone's grasp today. The ancient texts tell us the opposite is the case. As regards the jhana factors and insight development (vipassana bhavana), and I do not recall seeing any connection being made between the two in the materials I have studied. Have you read anything on this yourself? L: Also there are many subtle benefits to the practice of concentration not aimed at jhana. This necessitates the wilful revisting of one object, the breath for example. I think it might actually be a way of cultivating the basic matrix of kusala citta and cetasika. J: By 'practice of concentration' here I think you refer to tranquillity development (samatha bhavana). You characterise it as 'the wilful revisiting of one object'. I wonder if that is an accurate description of tranquillity development. For example, included among the 40 objects of samatha bhavana is the recollection of the qualities of the Buddha and the recollection of the Dhamma. How do you see samatha bhavana with these objects as fitting into the 'wilful revisiting of one object' model? L: There seems to be a general complaint about the usefulness of this procedure [concentration on the breath]. My only response is that it seems to provide a subtle salutary influence and a certain amount of clarity. And "usefulness", i.e., "insight", is little more than conceptual, most of the time, in the ordinary sense of cultivating right view. J: There is not (and I don't think there ever has been) any complaint from me about the usefulness of tranquillity development/samatha bhavana per se. I think our differences are as to what it is or how it is developed (same question), and its relevance to insight (but that's another subject, not under discussion here ;-)). Regarding what tranquillity development is and how it's developed, then. It's of course true that one form of tranquillity development given in the texts is mindfulness of breathing. However, it's quite another thing to say that concentration on the breath constitutes samatha bhavana. I think you can see there's quite a difference between these 2 statements. For one thing, the fact of there being concentration on an object does not, in and of itself, connote anything in the nature of kusala, and this is so even if the purpose is a 'right' one (to have more kusala) and the object is a 'right' one (one of the 40 mentioned in the texts). I think some would say that focussing on the breath suppresses akusala. Well, it may *appear* to do so, but perhaps we are only too eager to infer this, given that this is the whole point of the exercise, and that there is a level of relative calm and seemingly an absence of akusala. Are we in fact familiar with the respective characteristics of kusala and akusala moments and therefore able to distinguish between the subtle forms of both when they arise? Again, we mostly tend to *infer* kusala from the nature of the act being done, or from the absence of obvious akusala, or from the special nature of the experience (enlightening moments), rather than by having direct knowledge of the characteristic of a moment of kusala as distinct from the characteristic of a moment of akusala. Let me ask you, for example, what exactly you see as being the kusala involved in focussing on the breath. L: What is your understanding of concentration as the proximate cause of panna? Is this concentration no different than ekagatta cetasika that arises with every consciousness? Why not say attention (manasikara) is the proximate cause of panna? J: To my understanding, the concentration that is the proximate cause of panna is the concentration that has been already developed at previous moments of consciousness accompanied by panna and that will arise again together with the next such moment. These moments of consciousness are mundane path moments, and the factors arising with the consciousness (e.g., concentration, energy, panna) are in a class of their own, when compared to their 'ordinary moment' counterparts. These are some of my thoughts. Any comments? Jon 24244 From: suzakico Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -2 -a Thai and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming used to these terms does not mean experiencing all the different cittas. A. Sujin explained that intellectual understanding is a foundation for awareness that can arise later on. She stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the details of cittas, of their different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling, akusala cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas and rupas. Indeed, as we read in the suttas, listening, considering are most important conditions for the arising of satipatthana, sati and panna that directly realize characteristics of nama and rupa. ((First, having the intellectual training like this, and later realizing the point upon actual experience may enrich, and anchor the point of learning to enhance the condition for detached observation. So, I take this is one method to get to that state of detachment – which is the main objective as mentioned before. However, as anything else, this approach may have weakness, possibly playing the game of naming and cross referencing their experiences to sutta, etc. Still, this practice may make people to grow as they can exchange the views and experiential learning/wisdom along the way as may be taking place in this dhamma study group.)) ((Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. He then is not as occupied in the problem at hand, having developed this skill to be "objective' like a scientist. Still, once skill is developed, it may be ok to throw away the raft/theory instead of carrying it. I imagine, the master of this skill may be the owner of the skill in his body/unconsciousness. So, it becomes autonomous – like an art.)) 24245 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Chris: Christine: "Ken, I understand what you are saying - did you > continue to breed and > fatten cows for market and do you raise cattle for > slaughter now? > I'm know that you don't. Similarly, before I had > heard the Dhamma, I > too sent some bull calves for slaughter, raised > fowls for the table, > and it all seemed quite normal - not now though." ---------------------------------------------------- This matter about slaughtering of Bulls, Cows, fowls, &c, for food and pleasure has some historical and doctrinal interest on Buddhism. At the Jatakas we read that fabulous, wonderful stories about the past of Buddha: he was a bird at the forest that sacrifies himself to feed a lost and hunger prince, and so on. At the Vinaya we find that the Bhikku ought to feed himself with the alms that are freely given to him, not consuming food that are especially made for this. So, there´s not a direct prohibition to consume bulls, cows, calves, &c, for food: he must accept what is given to him whatever it can be... But... as a good Abhidhamma reader, you know that all these deals with reality are Kusala or Akusala (or, more focused at this question, Hetu and Ahetu - "conditioned" and "no-conditioned"). If there are abattoirs that kill poor animals for food, it´s because there is a manifold of causes and conditions that arises this kind of places. Only after some time, with the growth of conscience at human beings, we reach the Asoka´s decree that forbids the consume of animal´s flesh for food... ---------------------------------------------------- Chris: " I > try > unsuccessfully not to hear in memory the sounds of > the cow and calf > calling frantically to each other as the truck drove > off - or the > shrieks of the chickens being caught and carried to > the chopping > block. I too treated them all with kindness until it > came time to > treat them otherwise. But it is a false kindness, as > the intention > all along was to kill them or have them killed. How > would we feel > about the 'kindness' of someone we grew to trust, > who, all along > intended our families deaths even while laughing and > chatting with us?" ------------------------------------------------------ A very serious question. The conscience of suffering at other beings is not a good feeling... but at the practical side can arise good thoughts! Since Buddhism don´t support the Hindu´s social systems of cases, it doesn´t stress others about social duties - only Bhikkus are obliged to follow rules. As a layperson, a sincere desire to follow the five precepts and the purification of mind can free your brain of many of these stumbling-blocks of conscience! ----------------------------------------------------- Chris: " I take the term Livelihood to be used by the Buddha > in the everyday > sense ... an actual occupation. I don't see that he > meant it as a > millisecond. I understand Ledi Sayadaw to be > urging the use of > skillful means when teaching dhamma to people > already in the hunting > and fishing professions (and probably so for > generations). A direct > criticism could turn people away from the Dhamma > when they have > little other choice of Livelihood. But Ledi Sayadaw > does not say > that hunting and fishing are acceptable professions > to plan to enter > in some future time - he is speaking of those > already engaged in such > activities when a Bhikkhu comes across them." ----------------------------------------------------- The Zen has a saying ( the tenth plate of the "Taming of Bull"): "...making fishmongers and butchers Buddhas!". This reveals the low estimation of these activities... but it´s not impossible even to these people to reach Buddhahood! Metta, Ícaro > > "Samma ajiva -- Right livelihood > miccha ajivam pahaya -- giving up wrong livelihood, > samma ajivena jivitam kappeti -- one earns one's > living by a right > form of livelihood." > From Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path: "Right > Livelihood (samma > ajiva). Right livelihood is concerned with > ensuring that one earns > one's living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple > the Buddha > teaches that wealth should be gained in accordance > with certain > standards. One should acquire it only by legal > means, not illegally; > one should acquire it peacefully, without coercion > or violence; one > should acquire it honestly, not by trickery or > deceit; and one should > acquire it in ways which do not entail harm and > suffering for others. > The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of > livelihood which bring > harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: > dealing in weapons, > in living beings (including raising animals for > slaughter as well as > slave trade and prostitution), in meat production > and butchery, in > poisons, and in intoxicants (AN 5:177). He further > names several > dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under > wrong livelihood: > practising deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, > and usury (MN > 117). Obviously any occupation that requires > violation of right > speech and right action is a wrong form of > livelihood, but other > occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, > may not violate > those factors and yet be wrong because of their > consequences for > others." > http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp0.php > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > When I first joined our local Dhamma group, I was > > theoretically engaged in wrong livelihood. I was > > breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) > > > > The group's founding members (and our good > friends), > > Klaas, Reg and Andrew, are, as you know, fierce > defenders > > of all creatures great and small. I sensed their > > disapproval and secretly felt misunderstood. > While they > > were sitting in their city office towers, I was > molly- > > coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. > This > > involved scratching behind their ears, feeding > them > > treats, protecting them from predators and > parasites, > > maintaining the best pastures in the district -- > day in, > > day out. Admittedly, there was one day in every > year > > when some had to go to the abattoir. I > accompanied them > > in the carrier's truck to make sure they were > unloaded > > humanely but from there, they were on their own. > I > > suffered terribly but not as much as they did. > > > > My point is, while I was engaged in so-called > "wrong > > livelihood" there were many moments of kindness. > They > > might not have been moments of right livelihood, > but they > > weren't wrong livelihood either :-) > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24246 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:46am Subject: Vism. XIV, 7 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV 7. What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states. (3) Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essenses of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration. (3) 'A phenomenon's own essence (sako bhavo) or existing essence (samano va bhavo) is its individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm. 433). Cf. Ch. VIII, Note 68, where Pm. gives the definition from saha-bhava with essence). Vism. VIII, 245. One who wants to develop recollection of peace mentioned next to mindfulness of breathing (Ch.III,105) should go into solitary retreat and recollect the special qualities of nibbana, in other words, the stilling of all suffering, as follows: 'Bhikkhus, in so far as there are dhammas, whether formed or unformed, fading away is pronounced the best of them, that is to say, the disillusionment of vanity, the elimination of thirst, the abolition of reliance, the termination of the round, the destruction of craving, fading away, cessation, nibbana' (A.ii,34). 246. Herein "in so far" means as many as. "Dhammas" [means] individual essences. (68) .... Note 68. 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs., p. 1;1308) even a non-entity (abhava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is borne (dhariyati) and affirmed (avadhariyati) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying "Dhammas [means] individual essences". The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamanata) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhava); it is with essence (saha bhavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamanarupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called "dhammas (bearers)" because they bear (dharana) their own individual essences (sabhava), and they are called "individual essences" in the sense already explained' (Pm. 282; cf Ch. VII, n. 1 [Larry: this note explains the meaning of "dhamma", see Nina's recent posts]). In the Pitakas the word "sabhava" seems to appear only once (Ps.ii,178). It next appears in the Netti (p.79), the Milindapanha (pp.90,164,22,360). It is extensively used for exegetical purposes in the Visuddhimagga and main commentaries and likewise in the sub-commentaries. As has just been shown, it is narrower than dhamma (see also Ch. XXIII,n.18). It often roughly corresponds to "dhatu" (element--see e.g.DhsA.263) and to "lakkhana" (characteristic--see below), but less nearly to the vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature), or to "rasa" (function--see Ch.I,21). The Attasalini observes: 'It is the individual essence, or the generality, of such and such dhammas that is called their characteristic' (DhsA.63); on which the Mula Tika comments: 'The "individual essence" consisting in, say, hardness as that of earth, or touching as that of contact, is not common to all dhammas. The "generality" is the individual essence common to all consisting in impermanence, etc.; also in this context (i.e.Dhs.1) the characteristic of being profitable may be regarded as general because it is the individual essence common to all that is profitable; or alternatively it is their individual essence because it is not common to the unprofitable and indeterminate [kinds of consciousness]' (DhsAA.63). The individual essence of any formed dhamma is manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, ariing, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. Of space (akasa) the Tika in the Majjima Nikaya says: 'Though time is determined by the kind of consciosness [e.g. as specified in the first paragraph of the Dhammasangani] and is non-existent (avijjamana) as to indivdual essence, yet as the non-entity (abhava) before and after the moment in which those [conascent and co-present] dhammas occur, it is called the "container 'adhikarana'"; it is perceived (symbolized) only as the state of a receptacle (adhara-bhava)' (DhsAA.62). Of nibbana (for which see Ch. XVI,64ff.), which has its own individual essence, the Mula Tika says: Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of consciousness (alambitum) by one who has not realized it. That is why it has to be realized by Change-of lineage. It has profundity surpassing any individual essence belonging to the three periods of time' (Vbh.AA.38). 'Sabhava' has not the extreme vagueness of its parent 'bhava', which can mean anything between 'essence' (see e.g.DhsA.61) and '-ness' (e.g. 'natthi-bhava' = non-existingness -- Ch.X,35). This may be remembered when 'sabhava' is defined as above thus 'It is with essence (saha bhavena) thus it is individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm.282), and when it is again defined thus 'A dhamma's own essence or its existing essence (sako va bhavo samano va bhavo) is its individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm.433). "Sabhava' can also be the basis of a wrong view, if regarded as the sole efficient cause or condition of any formed thing (Ch.XVI,n.23). The Sanskrit equivalent, 'svabhava', had a great vogue and chequered history in philosohical discussions on the Indian mainland. This (unlike the word 'dhamma', which has many 'referents') is an instance in which it is of first importance to stick to one rendering. The word is purely an exegetical one; consequently vagueness is undesirable. 'Individual essence' has been chosen principally on etymological grounds, and the word 'essence' (an admittedly slippery customer) must be understood from the contexts in which it is used and not prejudged. Strictly it refers here to the triple moment of arising etc., of formed dhammas that can have such 'existence' in their own right and be experienced as such; and it refers to the realizability of nibbana. We are here in the somewhat magical territory of Ontology, a subject which is at present undergoing one of its periodical upheavals in Europe, this time in the hands of the Existentialists. Consequently it is important to approach the subject with an open mind. 24247 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Jon: "These are some of my thoughts. Any comments?" Hi Jon, I can't think of anything constructive to say. It would just be quibbling. Thanks for your reply. Larry 24248 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: duty of soldiers Hi Christine and all, I think the following discourse is relevant: Samyutta Nikaya XLII.3 Yodhajiva Sutta To Yodhajiva (The Warrior) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-003.html This is how I see it: There are always choices: choice that is wholesome, leading to good consequence and choice that is unwholesome, leading to bad consequence. Given particular situation, sometimes it is not easy to make a wholesome choice. Sometimes it is very easy to make unwholesome choice. A convenient choice is not necessarily wholesome, and a wholesome choice is not necessarily convenient. Peace, Victor 24249 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:43pm Subject: killing Hi Christine, As a matter of morbid academic curiosity I was wondering if there is a reason given in sutta or vinaya for not killing? Why is it evil and unwholesome according to the Buddha? One thing that troubles me about buddhism is that it doesn't seem (doctrinally) to hold life as inherently good. Larry 24250 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Dear Sarah, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > By way of the path seen by wisdom. > N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And > the > whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this > sentence. ..... > Greatly appreciating your extra translations and notes from the Tika. > I'm probably just confusing further (in which case pls ignore), but > let me add: > 1. ~Naa.namoli's glossary at back of Vism: > > dassana 1) seeing (the eye's function), 2) vision, 3) term for the > first path I think that would have made sense if 'dassita' were taken as 'seen' but the normal Pali word in this sense would have been 'di.t.tha-'. According to PED under 'dassati' (see end of article) and 'dassita' (shown, made visible), the latter is a causative past participle and is related to the causative verb 'dasseti'. The verbal root is 'dis' out of which many different forms are derived: pass- (vipassanaaa), dakkh-, dass-, da.t.th-. dit.t.h-, diss- which can be rather confusing. With 'shown' I wonder if the middle way is what 'magga' means here. Perhaps 'pa~n~naa' is the light showing the way through darkness of ignorance, like the guide showing the way through the forest, suggesting that vi~n~naa.na (the 4 kusalacittas dissociated from knowledge) is just following behind in the footsteps of the kusala cittas associated with pa~n~naa. I found one occurence of a translation of 'dassitamaggena' by Masefield in Peta Stories, p. 160: (Going) along the route described (by him . . .). Best wishes, Jim 24251 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] killing Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/16/03 8:44:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Christine, > > As a matter of morbid academic curiosity I was wondering if there is a > reason given in sutta or vinaya for not killing? Why is it evil and > unwholesome according to the Buddha? One thing that troubles me about > buddhism is that it doesn't seem (doctrinally) to hold life as > inherently good. > > Larry > > ===================== Independent of suttas: Killing inflicts pain and suffering, both on the victim and on those who love or depend on the victim, and if the victim is a human being, he/she has been deprived of a precious human life, a rare opportunity. Also, as far as the mind of the killer is concerned, killing is an extreme aversive action, which automatically creates severe vipaka. This is how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24252 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:33pm Subject: Re: killing Hello Larry, Good question Larry. Apart from instructions in the Precepts and in the Dhammapada I think the reasons for not killing are mostly given in suttas explaining Kamma. e.g. MN135 Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta "a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death -- instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell -- he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135.html The Sutta that Victor quoted in his last post from the Connected Discourses to Headmen had the Buddha telling a sobbing Yodhajiva the professional soldier "When, headman, a mercenary is one who strives and exerts himself in battle, his mind is already low, depraved, misdirected by the thought: 'Let these beings be slain, slaughtered, annihilated, destroyed, or exterminated.' If others then slay him and finish him off while he is striving and exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the 'Battle-Slain Hell'. But should he hold such a view as this: "When a mercenary strives and exerts himself etc... he is reborn in the company of the battle-slain devas - that is wrong view on his part. For a person with wrong view, I say, there is one of two destinations: either hell or the animal realm." I know we have had the discussion previously on disg [can't remember the thread name] about the relative demerits of killing various types of beings - larger ones and humans allegedly scoring greater kammic consequences because of the effort involved, (maybe in those days!) but I have read extracts from the Mahavamsa about the millions of Tamil deaths ordered by King Dutthagamani. He is said to have defeated King Elara, a Tamil King from South India, massacring millions of people, most of whom were Tamils. When plagued with a guilty conscience, he is calmed by "arhants, fully enlightened beings" who tell him not to worry as he only killed one and a half beings: "The one had come unto the (three) refuges, the other had taken unto himself the five precepts. Unbelievers and men of evil life were the rest, not to be esteemed more than beasts." So - it seems that, according to these 'arahants', killing is killing is killing ... (i.e. it's o.k. as long as they aren't buddhists.) Can arahants be wrong? Can scriptures be altered to insert the "Arahant Seal of Approval" when they weren't really arahants? And these sayings by Arahants have had dire consequences even in our own day in Lanka. I haven't killed another human being in this life - though I have killed many other sentient beings in my pre-Dhamma days - literally hundreds of mosquitos, flies, cockroaches, wasps, termites, fish, sea stingers, and spiders ... as well, there have been a few land snakes and cane toads, one sea snake, and many fish. Additionally, I have planned the deaths of some chickens and cows. I'd like to believe the "less of a kammic penalty for little things" (but what about the cow? It all makes one fearful for the future or prone to despair or doubt and disbelief - I'd like to offer the defense of not knowing any better - but, according to Buddhism, the 'penalties' seem to be worse for ignorance of the law than for deliberate wrongdoing. I don't think Buddhism holds life as good at all - I think it sees it as suffering (because of craving and impermanence) and dangerous ... (because of ignorance and delusion likely to lead to unending rebirths in various forms, creating evermore unhappy rebirths.) The idea is to get out of here. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > As a matter of morbid academic curiosity I was wondering if there is a > reason given in sutta or vinaya for not killing? Why is it evil and > unwholesome according to the Buddha? One thing that troubles me about > buddhism is that it doesn't seem (doctrinally) to hold life as > inherently good. > > Larry 24253 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] killing Hi Howard, I agree there are many good reasons for not killing. I was just wondering what reason, if any, the Buddha gave. A "precious human life" as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic value in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in theravada scriptures, but it could easily be there. Another curiosity: is love akusala (unwholesome)? Also: does kusala (wholesome) mean life-nourishing? Larry -------------------- Howard: Independent of suttas: Killing inflicts pain and suffering, both on the victim and on those who love or depend on the victim, and if the victim is a human being, he/she has been deprived of a precious human life, a rare opportunity. Also, as far as the mind of the killer is concerned, killing is an extreme aversive action, which automatically creates severe vipaka. This is how I see it. 24254 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing Hi Christine, Thanks for your thoughts and research. I agree with your findings ["I don't think Buddhism holds life as good at all"] but wish it weren't so. The threat of future bad rebirths just isn't very scary. Something interesting that just occurred to me: one could contrast the buddhist stance on soldiers with the "Bhagavadgita" which is the classic "soldier's duty" philosophy plus Vedanta spirituality. Also the Jains are very big on not taking life, but I don't know their reasoning. I don't recall any discussions between Mahavira or his disciples and the Buddha on this subject. Latty 24255 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > A "precious human life" > as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic value > in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in theravada > scriptures, but it could easily be there. ___________________---- > Dear Larry, http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm Nina Van gorkom: "We read in the 'Discourse on Fools and the Wise' (Middle Length Sayings Ill, 129) that the Buddha, when he was staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, spoke to the monks about the sufferings in hell and about the anguishes of animal birth. The Buddha said: Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into the sea. An easterly wind might take it westwards, a westerly wind might take it eastwards, a northerly wind might take it southwards, a southerly wind might take it northwards. There might be a blind turtle there who came to the surface once in a hundred years. What do you think about this, monks? Could that blind turtle push his neck through that one hole in the yoke?' 'lf at all, revered sir, then only once in a very long while.' 'Sooner or later, monks, could the blind turtle push his neck through the one hole in the yoke; more difficult than that, do I say, monks, is human status once again for the fool who has gone to the Downfall. Monks, if some time or other once in a very long while that fool came to human status (again), he would be born into those families that are low: a family of low caste or a family of hunters or a family of bamboo-plaiters or a family of cartwrights or a family of refuse-scavengers, in such a family as is needy, without enough to drink or to eat, where a covering for the back is with difficulty obtained. Moreover, he would be illfavoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, blind or deformed or lame or paralysed; he would be unable to get food, drink, clothes, vehicles, garlands, scents and perfumes, bed, dwelling and lights; he would fare wrongly in body, wrongly in speech, wrongly in thought. Because he had fared wrongly in body, speech and thought, at the breaking up of the body after dying he would arise in the sorrowful ways, a bad bourn, the Downfall, Niraya Hell.... This, monks, is the fool's condition, completed in its entirety...'; """ The atthakattha to Brahmajala sutta notes that this applies especially to those with wrongview who are said to become rooted in the round of births and deaths. And we, of course, are those very beings who have been travelling this infinite samsara because of self-view and attachment to rule and ritual (sila-bata paramasa upadana), because of following wrong teaching and wrong practice. These have become habits which we may even strengthen in this life if real insight is not developed. Only by learning to see the present moment as it really is (nana dasana ) can we see through the conceptual world. The Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]." This sasana (dispensation) of the Buddha is said (according to the ancient texts) to keep declining and it is already over half way. During this time right view and practice will continue to decrease and wrong views and practices will increase. RobertK Samyutta Nikaya: "Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... "Long have you been caught as dacoits, or high-way men or adulterers; and through your being beheaded; verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans." "There will come a time, when the mighty ocean will dry up, vanish, and be no more. There will come a time, when the mighty earth will be devoured by fire, perish, and be no more. But, yet there will be no end to the suffering of beings, who, obstucted by ignorance and ensnared by craving are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths." 24256 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] killing Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/16/03 10:38:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I agree there are many good reasons for not killing. I was just > wondering what reason, if any, the Buddha gave. A "precious human life" > as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic value > in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in theravada > scriptures, but it could easily be there. > > Another curiosity: is love akusala (unwholesome)? > > Also: does kusala (wholesome) mean life-nourishing? > > Larry > -------------------- ========================= There's that sutta about a sea tortoise which is bounced about in the ocean for aeons, and the likelihood of it's surfacing into the middle of floating harness or life preserver (I just can't recall exactly what the item is) is likened to the likelihood of a sentient being receiving birth in a precious human life. Viewing life as a human being as the best context for progress along the path is basic suttic Buddhism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24257 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:49pm Subject: Disappearance of the Sasana Dear Group, The gradual disapperance of the Buddha sasana: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buddhismforallmyanmar/message/61'Anagat avamsa') " The Sermon of the Chronicle to be " ""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances. 'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nirvana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. As time goes on and on these disciples of mine are nonreturners and once-returners and stream-winners. There will be no disappearance of attainment for these. But with the extinction of the last stream-winner's life, attainment will have disappeared. ..<.........> 'The disappearance of learning means that as long as there stand firm the texts with the commentaries pertaining to the word of the Buddha in the three Pitakas, for so long there will be no disappearance of learning. As time goes on and on there will be base-born kings, not Dhamma-men; (dharma) their ministers and so on will not be Dhamma-men, and consequently the inhabitants of the kingdom and so on will not be Dhamma-men. Because they are not Dhamma-men it will not rain properly. Therefore the crops will not flourish well, and in consequence the donors of requisites to the community of monks will not be able to give them the requisites. Not receiving the requisites the monks will not receive pupils. As time goes on and on learning will decay. In this decay the Great Patthana itself will decay first. In this decay also (there will be) Yamaka, Kathavatthu, Puggalapannati, Dhatukatha, Vibhanga and Dhammasangani. When the Abhidhamma Pitaka decays the Suttanta Pitaka will decay. When the Suttantas decay the Anguttara will decay first. When it decays the Samyutta Nikaya, the Majjhima Nikaya, the Digha Nikaya and the Khuddaka-Nikaya will decay. They will simply remember the jataka together with the Vinaya Pitaka. But only the conscientious (monks) will remember the Vinaya Pitaka. As time goes on and on, being unable to remember even the jataka, the Vessantara-jataka will decay first. When that decays the Apannaka-jataka will decay. When the jatakas decay they will remember only the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on and on the Vinaya-Pitaka will decay. While a four-line stanza still continues to exist among men, there will not be a disappearance of learning. When a king who has faith has had a purse containing a thousand (coins) placed in a golden' casket on an elephant's back, and has had the drum (of proclamation) sounded in the city up to the second or third time, to the effect that: "Whoever knows a stanza uttered by the Buddha, let him take these thousand coins together with the royal elephant"-but yet finding no one knowing a four-line stanza, the purse containing the thousand (coins) must be taken back into the palace again-then will be the disappearance of learning. 'This, Sariputta, is the disappearance of learning. 'As time goes on and on each of the last monks, carrying his robe, bowl, and tooth-pick like Jain recluses, having taken a bottle-gourd and turned it into a bowl for alms food, will wander about with it in his forearms or hands or hanging from a piece of string. As time goes on and on, thinking: 'What's the good of this yellow robe?" and cutting off a small piece of one and sticking it on his nose or ear or ill his hair, he will wander about supporting wife and children by agriculture, trade and the like. .... As time goes on and on, thinking: "What's the good of this to us?", having thrown away the piece Of yellow robe, he will harry beasts and birds in the forest. At this time the outward form will have disappeared. 'This, Sariputta, is called the disappearance of the outward form. """ A short time indeed does the Buddha's sasana last. RobertK 24258 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rare human birth1 Hi, Robert - This is a wonderful answer! Too bad I didn't wait a bit before posting my ill remembered "harness, life preserver, sea turtle" story! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/16/03 11:42:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > A "precious human life" > >as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic > value > >in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in > theravada > >scriptures, but it could easily be there. > ___________________---- > > > Dear Larry, > http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm > Nina Van gorkom: "We read in the 'Discourse on Fools and the Wise' > (Middle Length Sayings Ill, 129) that the Buddha, when he was > staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, spoke to > the monks about the sufferings in hell and about the anguishes of > animal birth. The Buddha said: > > Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into > the sea. An easterly wind might take it westwards, a westerly wind > might take it eastwards, a northerly wind might take it southwards, > a southerly wind might take it northwards. There might be a blind > turtle there who came to the surface once in a hundred years. What > do you think about this, monks? Could that blind turtle push his > neck through that one hole in the yoke?' > > 'lf at all, revered sir, then only once in a very long while.' > 'Sooner or later, monks, could the blind turtle push his neck > through the one hole in the yoke; more difficult than that, do I > say, monks, is human status once again for the fool who has gone to > the Downfall. > Monks, if some time or other once in a very long while that fool > came to human status (again), he would be born into those families > that are low: a family of low caste or a family of hunters or a > family of bamboo-plaiters or a family of cartwrights or a family of > refuse-scavengers, in such a family as is needy, without enough to > drink or to eat, where a covering for the back is with difficulty > obtained. Moreover, he would > be illfavoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, blind or deformed or lame or > paralysed; he would be unable to get food, drink, clothes, vehicles, > garlands, scents and perfumes, bed, dwelling and lights; he would > fare wrongly in body, wrongly in speech, wrongly in thought. Because > he had > fared wrongly in body, speech and thought, at the breaking up of the > body after dying he would arise in the sorrowful ways, a bad bourn, > the Downfall, Niraya Hell.... > This, monks, is the fool's condition, completed in its > entirety...'; """ > > The atthakattha to Brahmajala sutta notes that this applies > especially to those with wrongview who are said to become rooted in > the round of births and deaths. And we, of course, are those very > beings who have been travelling this infinite samsara because of > self-view and attachment to rule and ritual (sila-bata paramasa > upadana), because of following wrong teaching and wrong practice. > These have become habits which we may even strengthen in this life > if real insight is not developed. > > Only by learning to see the present moment as it really is (nana > dasana ) can we see through the conceptual world. The > Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > since it does not dart among those things that do > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > paramattha dhammas]." > > This sasana (dispensation) of the Buddha is said (according to the > ancient texts) to keep declining and it is already over half way. > During this time right view and practice will continue to decrease > and wrong views and practices will increase. > > RobertK > Samyutta Nikaya: > > "Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The > earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of > beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... > > "Long have you been caught as dacoits, or high-way men or > adulterers; and through your being beheaded; verily more blood has > flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans." > > "There will come a time, when the mighty ocean will dry up, vanish, > and be no more. There will come a time, when the mighty earth will > be devoured by fire, perish, and be no more. But, yet there will be > no end to the suffering of beings, who, obstucted by ignorance and > ensnared by craving are hurrying and hastening through this round of > rebirths." /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24259 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - Exactly what is the Anagatavamsa Desana? At the web site it says this is part of the Pali canon. But that doesn't seem to be so. I'm confused on this. I have found the following: ************************* Anagatavamsa Desana Hardback; Book 70 pages Motilal Banarsidass ISBN: 812081133X This item non-returnable. Order may not be canceled. Free prose transaltion of Anaagatavaomsa desanaa, an adaptation of the Anaagatavaomsa by Kassapathaera, fl. 1160-1230, on the story of Maitreya, Buddhist deity. ******************************** and also the following: ******************************* Editorial Reviews Book Description This Sinhala recension of the Anagatavamsa, here translated into English for the first time, is but one of the several texts forming a genre of Buddhist apocalyptic literature generated by the Cult of Maitreya in South and South-East Asia. It is a prophetic text revealing a rich religious imagination that focuses upon the advent of the future Buddha in a time when those who have long perserved in the religious quest will gain an opportunity to realise the highest spritual attainment. *************************************** From what I see here, this doesn't strike me as part of the Pali canon, and certainly not Buddha word. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24260 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Exactly what is the Anagatavamsa Desana? At the web site it says this > is part of the Pali canon. But that doesn't seem to be so. > I'm confused on this. I have found the following: > > __ Dear Howard, Not part of the Tipitaka. It is a later Pali text(but based on ancient records) revered in Burma, Sri lanka and Thailand. Of course some scholars doubt its truth - but then a couple of hundred years ago some scholars thought the Buddha was a mythical figure. Robertk 24261 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Victor, My apologies that I addressed you in the third person. Nina. op 15-08-2003 21:15 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > PS. Nina, while you addressed the message directly to me as > indicated in the salutation, you addressed me in third person in the > body of the message. It is like talking to someone and addressing > him or her in third person. 24262 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg]wrong livelihood Dear Ken H, What a heartbreaking story, to part with the cattle. Of course, there are also many kusala cittas, as Rob K also explained when quoting from Ledi Sayadaw. Did you get rid of all cattle now? It is difficult to change one's profession, how did you do it? Nina. op 16-08-2003 10:03 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > I was > breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) , I was molly- > coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. This > involved scratching behind their ears, 24263 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rare human birth1 Hi Robert and Howard, Thanks for the sea turtle story. I had forgotten all about it. Is there a "rare human birth 2"? Larry 24264 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: Rare human birth1 Hi Larry, Robert, Howard and all, The Chiggala Sutta also uses a turtle to describe the preciousness and rarity of a human birth during a time when the teachings of a Buddha are available. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24265 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:36pm Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics mike: >Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or political >level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the >Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of >ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma >(correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is >no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing >and/or medicine, in my opinion. > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice dhamma to relieve my own suffering. Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't even attempt it. nori 24266 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:25am Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hello Nori, I empathise with your feelings :-) It ie hard not to have a great deal of righteous anger about the injustices in the world. I have come to realise that all anger is unwholesome. I still do what I can in my immediate vicinity, with situations and people I have contact with, to show compassion and metta. People on this list used to (and still do) talk about anatta and tell me to have awareness of what is arising through the sense doors in this very moment. All the rest is just stories, they would say. [They may not have known it, but this only used to increase my dosa and frustration.] So I marched, and signed petitions, wrote letters and went to meetings - and no doubt will still do that. As well, my job as a hospital crisis worker shows me suffering and injustice on a daily basis. I think often of kamma and it's results, of dukkha and the way that leads to its cessation. Once I asked on this List, as you are doing, what the Buddha might have thought of human rights abuses and injustice in the world. I received a very helpful post from member Dan Dalthorp which you may like to read: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9513 Personally, I really doubt that any permanent change can happen on this earth - greed, hate and delusion will always rule. The question is How are we to Live? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > mike: > > >Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or political > >level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the > >Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of > >ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma > >(correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is > >no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing > >and/or medicine, in my opinion. > > > > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. > > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. > > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. > > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > even attempt it. > > nori 24267 From: alpha16draconis Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Kasina Meditation Question Nina, I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to insight meditation. I concentrate on the kasina device until I have acquired the after-image and fix it in my mind until it fades. I usually do this for 15 to 20 minutes then re-acquire the image again. I'm not sure exactly what is happening, if its my rods and cones or in my mind, but I retain after images in complementary colors whether I want to or not if I've been doing intensive concentration meditation for several consecutive days. Try driving a car with countless bright after images everytime you glance at the sun. I almost have to pull over and wait till the images fade.The phenomenon arises and passes away. I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. Have you ever heard anything like this? Sincerely, Stephen Maddux 24268 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Howard, Thanks for your comments, I agree with them although there's still plenty of room for debate :-) If you didn't experience strong anger during those ten days, then that rebuts my theory that the high points were lobha, not alobha. Lobha conditions dosa: I know it doesn't have to do so in the short term but, in my experience, coming down from a 'good meditation,' to encounter unpleasant circumstances -- sore legs, annoying neighbours -- usually results in a temper tantrum :-) Kind regards, Ken H the long > run. It may be that this was what was "right" for me at that time, but something > else was needed for you. Your contact with Khun Sujin and her students may be > just what you "needed", and perhaps had your Goenka experience seemed more > positive, the direction of your Dhammic life might have been different and > possibly worse for you. We just can't know - the web of kamma and of causes and > conditions in general is far too complex for us to discern clearly enough. 24269 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: killing In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I have read extracts from the Mahavamsa about the > millions of Tamil deaths ordered by King Dutthagamani. He is said to > have defeated King Elara, a Tamil King from South India, massacring > millions of people, most of whom were Tamils. >+++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Christine, This king, apparently, also did some good deeds: "'Ninety-nine viharas have been built by the great king, and, with (the spending of) nineteen kotis, the Maricavattivihara; the splendid Lohapasada was built for thirty kotis. But those precious things that have been made for the Great Thupa were worth twenty kotis; the rest that, was made for the Great Thüpa by the wise (king was worth) a thousand kotis, O great king.' Thus did he read. As he read further: 'In the mountain-region called Kotta, at the time of the famine alled the Akkhakhayika famine, two precious ear-rings were given (by the king), and thus a goodly dish of sour millet- gruel was gotten for five great theras who had overcome the asavas, and offered' to them with a believing heart; when, vanquished in the battle of Culaganiya, he was fleeing he proclaimed the hour (of the meal) and to the ascetic (Tissa), free from the Asavas, who came thither through the air he, without thought for himself, gave the food from his bowl' then did the king take up the tale: 'In the week of the consecration-festival of the (Maricavatti) vihära as at the consecration of the (Loha) pasada, in the week when the (Great) Thupa was begun even as when the relics were enshrined, a general, great and costly giving of alms was arranged by me to the great community of both (sexes) from the four quarters. I held twenty-four great Vesakha-festivals; three times did I bestow the three garments on the brotherhood of the island. Five times, each time for seven days, have I bestowed (glad at heart) the rank of ruler of this island upon the doctrine. I have had a thousand lamps with oil and white wicks burning perpetually in twelve places, adoring the Blessed (Buddha) with this offering. Constantly in eighteen places have I bestowed on the sick the foods for the sick and remedies, as ordered by the physicians. In forty-four places have I commanded the perpetual giving of rice- foods prepared with honey ; and in as many places lumps of rice with oil, and in even as many places great jala-cakes, baked in butter and also therewith the ordinary rice. For the uposatha-festivals I have had oil for the lamps distributed one day in every month in eight vihãras on the island of Lanka. And since I heard that a gift (by preaching) of the doctrine is more than a gift of worldly wealth I said: At the foot of the Lohapasada, in the (preacher's) chair in the midst of the brotherhood, I will preach the Mangalasutta to the brotherhood but when I was seated there I could not preach it, from reverence for the brotherhood. Since then I have commanded the preaching of the doctrine everywhere, in the viharas of Lanka, giving rewards to the preachers. To each preacher of the doctrine did I order to give a nali of butter, molasses and sugar; moreover, I bestowed on them a handful of liquorice, four inches long, and I gave them, moreover, a pair of garments. But all this giving while that I reigned, rejoices not my heart; only the two gifts that I gave, without care for my life, the while I was in adversity, those gladden my heart.' To his younger brother he said: 'All the work of the Great Thüpa which is still unfinished, do thou complete, my dear Tissa, caring duly for it. Evening and morning offer thou flowers at the Great Thupa and three times (in the day) command a solemn oblation at the Great Thupa. All the ceremonies introduced by me in honour of the doctrine of the Blessed (Buddha) do thou carry on, my dear, stinting nothing. Never grow weary, my dear, in duty toward the brotherhood (sangha).'"" http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap032.html Robertk 24270 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: killing Dear Robert, Thank you for giving a little more of the story of the King and his good deeds. I do not doubt that the King did many good things. I don't question whether or not the King felt there was no other course than to go to war against the Tamils, causing such a large number of deaths. He seems to have been wracked by guilt and remorse because of it. What I was shocked by, was that the Arahants told him that he had not killed millions - only one and a half human beings ... the remainder of the millions were mere unbelievers. Millions died in pain and terror, men women children, young, elderly - not worth worrying over? - they weren't beings, just unbelievers? Either the words weren't spoken by arahants and were inserted later at the King's command (as has been suggested elsewhere - and then there is a real problem with the authority of the Mahavamsa) or there is a real problem with seeing arahants as those to emulate. These are those who have attained the highest goal to which we should all aspire? My understanding (and I hope it is correct) is that the Mahavamsa is not part of the Tipitaka, that it is a later chronicle of Sri Lankan history. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > I have read extracts from the Mahavamsa about the > > millions of Tamil deaths ordered by King Dutthagamani. He is said > to > > have defeated King Elara, a Tamil King from South India, > massacring > > millions of people, most of whom were Tamils. > >+++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Christine, > This king, apparently, also did some good deeds: > http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap032.html > Robertk 24271 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: killing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thank you for giving a little more of the story of the King and his > good deeds. I do not doubt that the King did many good things. > I don't question whether or not the King felt there was no other > course than to go to war against the Tamils, causing such a large > number of deaths. He seems to have been wracked by guilt and remorse > because of it. What I was shocked by, was that the Arahants told him > that he had not killed millions - only one and a half human > beings ... the remainder of the millions were mere unbelievers. > Millions died in pain and terror, men women children, young, elderly - > not worth worrying over? - they weren't beings, just unbelievers? _____________ Dear Christine, The King was fighting in Sri lanka after the Tamil kings invaded from India and had almost taken over the country. These were battles between soldiers and so I think there would have been less loss of life of woman and children and elderly than we see in wars these days. The duty of a King is grave and not to be envied. In one of the Jatakas the Buddha is born as a prince but remembers that his last life was 60,000 years being roasted in hell. And that was because in his prior life he was a King, (who no doubt had to fight and inflict punishment). So he refused to be King again. Still whenever I hear of a wise person taking difficult duty I am happy as I believe it is for the betterment of the society; otherwise only buffoons and ruffians will become presidents, generals, diplomats and police. The Mahavamsa is not part of the Tipitaka but is a chronicle of Kings and the Sangha, and of immense value, I believe. The arahants knew that this king would do much for the Sangha and wanted to help him out of his depression (BTW I checked; this wasn't on his deathbed as I thought). The abbreviated paragraph in the Mahavmasa may not do full justice to all the discussion they had with the King. But when you are relating hundreds of years and a long line of kings we can perhaps forgive the author some occasional overzealous dialogue editing. In the Dhammapada atthakattha there is the following story: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm ""Tambadathika served the king as an executioner of thieves for fifty-five years; he had just retired from that post. One day, after preparing rice gruel at his house, he went to the river for a bath; he had intended to take the specially prepared rice gruel on his return. As he was about to take the rice gruel, Thera Sariputta, who had just arisen from sustained absorption in Concentration (jhana samapatti), stood at his door for alms-food. Seeing the thera, Tambadathika thought to himself, "Throughout my life, I have been executing thieves; now I should offer this food to the thera." So, he invited Thera Sariputta to come in and respectfully offered the rice gruel. After the meal, the thera taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadathika could not pay attention, because he was so agitated as he recollected his past life as an executioner. When the thera knew this, he decided to ask Tambadathika tactfully whether he killed the thieves because he wished to kill them or because he was ordered to do so. Tambadathika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the king and that he had no wish to kill. Then the thera asked, "If that is so, would you be guilty or not ?" Tambadathika then concluded that, as he was not responsible for the evil deeds, he was not guilty. He, therefore, calmed down, and requested the thera to continue his exposition.""" Perhpas if I had to put that into a sentence or two it might sound like I'm trying to say killing is no big deal. But if we know the purpose of Sariputta - to calm the Executioner, so he could listen to Dhamma - we will understand better. It is said that giving even the washings of a teacup to some fish will bring great merit. And then giving to a normal human much more. But giving to someone who has just the beginning of faith in the Dhamma much more than that. Giving to someone who understands Dhamma and keeps the precepts much more again , giving to a sotapanna much much more and so on. Likewise it is much worse to kill a sotapanna (from the point of view of the kammic results) than to kill a normal human being. Worse to kill a person of average morality than a bad man. That is not to say that any killing is without result - simply that the texts say that there are variations in kammic result. And I think this is what the arahants were stressing to the King. They (and he) knew that the Kamma was bad but dwelling on evil done in the past can make matters worse. Best to encourage the person to do good deeds now and in the future. And the King, after that discussion, seemed almost superhuman in the energy he put into the projects for the benefit of the Ti-ratana, Triple gem. When I'm in Thailand I have had a few times someone confide in me some illdeed that is bothering them and I always say words to the effect of "Don't worry, that's all in the past, Now you are a man (or woman ) of faith and the results of that are incomparable and wonderful." And I mean it. RobertK p.s About the war the King said ""Not for the joy of sovereignty is this toil of mine[the war], my striving (has been) ever to establish the doctrine of the Sambuddha"" He listened to his mother(like a good buddhist son): ""The king Dutthagamani also took counsel with his mother and by her counsel formed thirty-two bodies of troops. In these the king placed parasol-bearers and figures of a king;' the monarch himself took his place in the innermost body of troops"" 24272 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:07am Subject: Re: killing Dear Robert, Thank you for this post - I'll read it over a few times and think about it some more - looking at the story from another perspective could mean that it is a little less disturbing than I first thought. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 24273 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/17/03 12:31:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Robert - > > > > Exactly what is the Anagatavamsa Desana? At the web site it > says this > >is part of the Pali canon. But that doesn't seem to be so. > > I'm confused on this. I have found the following: > > > >__ > Dear Howard, > Not part of the Tipitaka. It is a later Pali text(but based on > ancient records) revered in Burma, Sri lanka and Thailand. Of course > some scholars doubt its truth - but then a couple of hundred years > ago some scholars thought the Buddha was a mythical figure. > Robertk > ========================= Thank you for the additional details. I've re-read the article at the web site and find myself *quite* the unbeliever. After 2500 years, the jhanas are attainable, analytic insights, if that includes the tilakkhana, are attainable to *some* degree even in very ordinary people such as myself, and to considerably higher degree in others [I do strongly believe that there are newly attained ariyans in this world], and the tipitaka, after, no doubt, some loss *early* on, seems to be in rather secure shape now, being preserved by print and electronic media, and not only by the memory of human beings. Many Theravadins charge the Mahayanists, with considerable justification, I think, of creating new teachings which, while often quite worthwhile and in perfect harmony with the Buddha word, are not Buddha word but are put forward as such. Most of those "sutras", however, at least have the advantage of positivity, encouraging continued practice of the Dharma. But this work, apparently constructed by a Theravadin Metteya cult lacks even that. It is nice that folks have something to "reverence", but to my mind, they have made a poor choice of object of veneration in this case. Obviously, I do recognize the possibility of my evaluation being in error. Howver, I strongly believe otherwise. May it be so that this strong belief is not the result of being a hopelessly deluded puthujjana who has no chance of taking even baby steps on the path until Lord Metteya arrives. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24274 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi, Christine, Larry, Robert, and all - In a message dated 8/17/03 12:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Larry, Robert, Howard and all, > > The Chiggala Sutta also uses a turtle to describe the preciousness > and rarity of a human birth during a time when the teachings of a > Buddha are available. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > =========================== Part of this sutta has the following English rendering: "It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. ... " I am curious as to the Pali for "sheer coincidence" and how it might otherwise be translated. I suspect this terminology implies only rarity of occurrence and near impossibility of prediction rather than randomness and lack of cause and condition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24275 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. > > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. It's a mess, all right... > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. Not yours, or you or yourself--just dukkha. > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > even attempt it. "I" is the problem, whether socially or individually. When hatred and greed are present, clinging to self is never far away. When understanding is present, ignorance, hatred and greed are not and can't contribute to the horrors you mentioned above. That's why I think that bhavana (and especially di.t.thujukamma, the correction of views) is the best way to approach the problems of the world, whether on an individual or social basis. Any other, material kindness, generosity etc. is wonderful too, of course, in my opinion--but if rooted in ignorance, aversion and desire? Not likely to produce good results, I think. So, obviously, I don't see this as 'ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics'. Cheers! mike 24276 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question Hi Stephen, Interesting! I've always wondered about kasina meditation since it seems to've been quite commonplace in the Buddha's day. Do you know what your teacher's sources were? I've found bits and pieces regarding colored discs representing the elements and so on (in Vism.?) but don't remember much. Nice to meet you. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: alpha16draconis To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question > Nina, > I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma > when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught > several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice > concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to > insight meditation. I concentrate on the kasina device until I have > acquired the after-image and fix it in my mind until it fades. I > usually do this for 15 to 20 minutes then re-acquire the image again. > I'm not sure exactly what is happening, if its my rods and cones or > in my mind, but I retain after images in complementary colors whether > I want to or not if I've been doing intensive concentration > meditation for several consecutive days. Try driving a car with > countless bright after images everytime you glance at the sun. I > almost have to pull over and wait till the images fade.The phenomenon > arises and passes away. I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or > barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. > Have you ever heard anything like this? > > Sincerely, > Stephen Maddux 24277 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:41am Subject: Re: Kasina Meditation Question Dear Stephen Maddux, Nina, and all How are you? While we are waiting for Nina's answer, I wrote this post to congratulate you, Stephen. The phenomenon you are experiencing might be that of "Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta). To make sure that what you are having is, indeed, the intended "Learnt Image", please kindly carry out the following experiment. 1. Repeat your usual kasi.na practice. 2. With your eyes being open, look at the kasi.na object. 3. With your eyes shut, check if you see the kasi.na object as you would while looking at it with your open eyes. 4. If you see the kasi.na object vividly even though your eyes are shut, then what you have is called "The Learnt Image". If you now, indeed, have "The Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta), Section 57, Chapter 4, Visuddhimaggo, instructs that you should leave the source kasi.na object, and go to a quiet secluded place, and develop and nurture the Learnt Image further. You are to keep nurturing the Learnt Image until you obtain the "Nurtured Image" (pa.tibhaaganimitta). The Nurtured Image does not have the imperfections of the Learnt Image. While the Learnt Image has the color and shape of the source kasi.na object, the Nurtured Image has neither color nor shape (Tan`ca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam). The Nurtured Image is also said to be made from memory (saññaajametam). Once you obtain the Nurtured Image, you are no longer a human being as we know it. You have crossed over to the status of the non- sensuous being from the common state of sensuous beings that we all are without such a level of jhaana achievement. Once you obtain the Nurtured Image initially, you are at the level of near-jhaana concentration. All you need to do from there from then onward is to make further efforts to enter the level of the First Jhaana. Please read the How- To instructions in Section 58, Chapter 4 in Visuddhimaggo. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "alpha16draconis" wrote: Nina, I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to insight meditation. I concentrate on the kasina device until I have acquired the after-image and fix it in my mind until it fades. I usually do this for 15 to 20 minutes then re-acquire the image again. I'm not sure exactly what is happening, if its my rods and cones or in my mind, but I retain after images in complementary colors whether I want to or not if I've been doing intensive concentration meditation for several consecutive days. Try driving a car with countless bright after images everytime you glance at the sun. I almost have to pull over and wait till the images fade.The phenomenon arises and passes away. I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. Have you ever heard anything like this? Sincerely, Stephen Maddux 24278 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi Howard, The Pali word is 'adhicca' (adj.). Cone gives its meaning as: fortuitous, occurring by mere chance; rare. It is also used as an indeclinable: fortuitously, without cause or reason; rarely. In the Kindred Sayings' translation of the same sutta, it is rendered as 'unlikely'. Best wishes, Jim > I am curious as to the Pali for "sheer coincidence" and how it might > otherwise be translated. I suspect this terminology implies only rarity > of occurrence and near impossibility of prediction rather than randomness > and lack of cause and condition. > > With metta, > Howard 24279 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question Dear Suan and all, I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign (uggahanimitta). Would it be possible to just start by imagining or visualizing a coloured disc and gradually increase the vividness of it to the same high degree? Best wishes, Jim << Dear Stephen Maddux, Nina, and all How are you? While we are waiting for Nina's answer, I wrote this post to congratulate you, Stephen. The phenomenon you are experiencing might be that of "Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta). To make sure that what you are having is, indeed, the intended "Learnt Image", please kindly carry out the following experiment. 1. Repeat your usual kasi.na practice. 2. With your eyes being open, look at the kasi.na object. 3. With your eyes shut, check if you see the kasi.na object as you would while looking at it with your open eyes. 4. If you see the kasi.na object vividly even though your eyes are shut, then what you have is called "The Learnt Image". If you now, indeed, have "The Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta), Section 57, Chapter 4, Visuddhimaggo, instructs that you should leave the source kasi.na object, and go to a quiet secluded place, and develop and nurture the Learnt Image further. You are to keep nurturing the Learnt Image until you obtain the "Nurtured Image" (pa.tibhaaganimitta). The Nurtured Image does not have the imperfections of the Learnt Image. While the Learnt Image has the color and shape of the source kasi.na object, the Nurtured Image has neither color nor shape (Tan`ca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam). The Nurtured Image is also said to be made from memory (saññaajametam).>> 24280 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Mike: Mike: " It's a mess, all right..." > Nori:" ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and > effort to practice > > dhamma to relieve my own suffering." > Mike: "Not yours, or you or yourself--just dukkha." ------------------------------------------------------ Butting in, Number one! PatyekkaBuddha (PaccekaBuddha) are mentioned in many sources, Buddhistic and Hunduistic ones.At the Mahayana´s view, the PaccekaBuddha is a selfish creature, that only reachs Nibbana for his own concerns, without spend any thought with other beings, their affairs, their sufferings... At Theravada´s, the PaccekaBuddha is only a Buddha that reached the other shore due his own merits and deeds. You are entirely right, Mike, when says that "Not yours, or you or yourself--just dukkha.". At the Dhammasangani (Atthakathakandam, 4 or 5), it´s written that Nibbana is a ahetu dhamma - a non-conditioned dhamma. So, my suffering and its extinction are not "mine", as the suffering of others are not linked with an idea of "I"... and the Nibbana is not conditioned of concepts of "mine" and "yours". This has got some intriguing consequences: personal efforts are somewhat linked with others´: my happiness build others´, my path towards Nibbana push others to the same goal. ------------------------------------------------------ Mike:" "I" is the problem, whether socially or > individually. When hatred and greed > are present, clinging to self is never far away. > When understanding is > present, ignorance, hatred and greed are not and > can't contribute to the > horrors you mentioned above. That's why I think > that bhavana (and > especially di.t.thujukamma, the correction of views) > is the best way to > approach the problems of the world, whether on an > individual or social > basis. Any other, material kindness, generosity > etc. is wonderful too, of > course, in my opinion--but if rooted in ignorance, > aversion and desire? Not > likely to produce good results, I think. > > So, obviously, I don't see this as 'ethical > justification for passivity in > social action & politics'." ------------------------------------------------- Well posed, number one! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24281 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question Suan: "The Nurtured Image does not have the imperfections of the Learnt Image. While the Learnt Image has the color and shape of the source kasi.na object, the Nurtured Image has neither color nor shape (Tan`ca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam). The Nurtured Image is also said to be made from memory (saññaajametam)." Hi Suan, You might try taking this idea of an image into something more conceptual like "beautiful". I would recommend also the close reading of the section on Earth Kasina. The same principles apply to the color kasinas. Larry 24282 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi, Jim - In a message dated 8/17/03 11:43:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > The Pali word is 'adhicca' (adj.). Cone gives its meaning as: > fortuitous, occurring by mere chance; rare. It is also used as an > indeclinable: fortuitously, without cause or reason; rarely. In the > Kindred Sayings' translation of the same sutta, it is rendered as > 'unlikely'. > > Best wishes, > Jim > =========================== Thank you for this. I'm pleased that the senses of "rare" and "unlikely" are included, for the "random" senses are contrary to the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24283 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven meanings of bhaava. Dear Larry, Thank you for the long note in Vis. VIII, note 68. op 16-08-2003 20:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Note 68. 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs., p. > 1;1308) even a non-entity (abhava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is > borne (dhariyati) and affirmed (avadhariyati) by knowledge. N: this is interesting, it gives the reason why even concept is dhamma. I shall use this for my meanings of dhamma. L quotes: It often roughly corresponds to "dhatu" (element--see e.g.DhsA.263) and to "lakkhana" (characteristic--see below), but less nearly to the vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature) N: pakati is not vague, it is one of the meanings of dhamma: being suceptible to birth, (jaati dhamma), to old age (jaaradhamma), to death (maraha dhamma). We have to be careful with aa and a: there are two words: bhava and bhaava. It should be sabhaava. Bhava is translated as state of existence. Bhaava: Jim gave us seven meanings: padattha, word meaning. satta: existence. adippaya: intention. kriyaa: function, activity. sabhaava: with its own nature or characteristic. liila: grace, charm. purisitthindriya: faculty of masculinity. I am inclined to be more and more careful with so many meanings of one word. Ve. Nyanamoli also states that essence is loaded by modern philosophy. I am not inclined to use it. Nina. 24284 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 7. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:38:46 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 7. meanings of dhamma, no 7. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pariyatti, the scriptures and dhamma as nissatta-nijjiivataa, without a being, without a living soul, in the same way as the Atthasaalinii (38). We read with regard to dhamma as pariyatti: We read with regard to dhamma as nissattanijjiivata: The Saddaniti explains dhamma as vikaara, alteration, subject to change: The Saddaniti explains dhamma as gu.na, merit, virtue: The PED mentions under buddhadhamma, that they are classified as six or as eighteen. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as condition, paccaya, in the same way as hetu, cause, when it refers to the analytical knowledge of cause, dhammapa.tisambhidaa: Words: .thita: firm, fixed. vaasa: condition, control. niyaama: natural order. Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. N: As regards kamma: akusala kamma produces an undesirable result and kusala kamma produces a desirable result, and this is niyaama, a fixed order of dhammas. It cannot be altered. As regards functions of citta: cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in series or processes of citta. Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own function. For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of seeing, and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that process, which perform their own function. There is a certain fixed order of cittas within a process and this order cannot be altered. The ³Gradual Sayings² (I, 285) Ch XIV, §134, Appearance states: The same is said with regard to the nature of dukkha and anattaa. Nina. 24285 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing Dear Kio, op 16-08-2003 20:11 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that > it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can > name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in > the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. N: As I see it, it is more complicated then that. When there is any idea of observer there may be a very subtle, hidden self feeling, an idea of I observe. It is so human and so common; of course, because we have not eradicated the wrong view of self. Therefore, it is our task to detect it when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect this. As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even attachment. Nina. 24286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] impediments to jhana Dear Jon, Lately I have been reflecting more on the 10 impediments, palibodha, you mention. I was listening to a tape. I would like to add a few words. op 16-08-2003 17:01 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > See the concentration section > beginning at Vism III, esp. at par. 27, 28 and 29. The text assumes > that the practitioner has already severed the 10 impediments, namely, > a home, relatives, possessions, students/subordinate, > responsibilities, travel, colleagues and family, illness, formal > study of the teachings, and attainments; and that is just for > starters. N: dwelling, relatives, traveling, all this are characteristics of a busy life, where one is involved with people, it prevents one from leading a solitary life which is so necssary to concentrate on the meditation subject of samatha. The last one refers to supernormal powers. We read: 9III, 56): Studying the impediments helps us to understand the difference between the way of development of insight and of samatha. Why are the first nine impediments not impediments for insight? One's house, social contacts and work are no impediments for insight, because the development of insight is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. They are sabhaava dhammas, they each have their own characteristic that appear. For samatha a certain method is to be applied, but the method for vipassana is no method. The Buddha said to the monks: here are the roots of the trees, but we should remember to whom he was speaking. The monk is supposed not to indulge in social contacts. Several of them had the skill to develop both jhana and vipassana, thus, that is a different matter. Dhammas appear already because of their own conditions in their own time. If awareness does not arise often (and this is common), the reason is that we still have not quite understood what the object of awareness is: any nama or rupa appearing now. We believe we have understood this, but in reality we have not. We have to listen again, reflect again. Moreover: the perfections have not been accumulated sufficiently, they are still defective, or some perfections have been neglected. Nina. 24287 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing Hi, Nina (and Kio) - In a message dated 8/17/03 2:40:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Kio, > op 16-08-2003 20:11 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > > >Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that > >it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can > >name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in > >the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. > N: As I see it, it is more complicated then that. When there is any idea of > observer there may be a very subtle, hidden self feeling, an idea of I > observe. It is so human and so common; of course, because we have not > eradicated the wrong view of self. Therefore, it is our task to detect it > when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect > this. > As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even > attachment. > Nina. > > ============================= Somehow I missed the post/posts preceding this one in this thread, but I presume this pertains to the practice of labelling recommended by some meditation instructors such as Mahasi Sayadaw. If that is what you are discussing, then I'd like to mention my agreement with your assessment. I think that labelling cittas in any terms not only emphasizes the subjective pole of the mindstate, possibly reinforcing the sense of "observing self", but also activates the conceptual faculty with regard to the objective pole, frequently reinforcing our tendency to reify the object and also compromising the directness of the experiencing and forcing a sense of "hard separation" between subject and object. I think it best, to the extent possible, to *wordlessly* attend to what arises with as much relaxed clarity as conditions permit. When conditions such as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are sufficient to allow pa~n~na to arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what is what without any forced attempts at conceptual characterization. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24288 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seven meanings of bhaava. Dear Nina: Nina:" We have to be careful with aa and a: there are two > words: bhava and bhaava. > It should be sabhaava. > Bhava is translated as state of existence. > Bhaava: Jim gave us seven meanings: > padattha, word meaning. > satta: existence. > adippaya: intention. > kriyaa: function, activity. > sabhaava: with its own nature or characteristic. > liila: grace, charm. > purisitthindriya: faculty of masculinity." -------------------------------------------------- Exact. As "manaasika", "bhaava" can assume such meanings - I usually use the "adippaya" translation, but the others make sense too! ------------------------------------------------- > Nina: "I am inclined to be more and more careful with so > many meanings of one word. > Ve. Nyanamoli also states that essence is loaded by > modern philosophy. I am > not inclined to use it." ------------------------------------------------------ Essence for Bhaava ? Hmmm... it doesn´t seem coherent with the preceeding meanings. Intention or even "feeling" could do it better. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24289 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] observing dear Howard: Howard:" I think that > labelling cittas in any terms not only emphasizes > the subjective pole of the > mindstate, possibly reinforcing the sense of > "observing self", but also activates > the conceptual faculty with regard to the objective > pole, frequently > reinforcing our tendency to reify the object and > also compromising the directness of the > experiencing and forcing a sense of "hard > separation" between subject and > object. I think it best, to the extent possible, to > *wordlessly* attend to what > arises with as much relaxed clarity as conditions > permit." ----------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in, uprighted upaasaka! Are you supposing a Phenomenological perspective ? Without lying down besides an exaggerated viewpoint of a direct link between Science with Buddhism ( no, I am not a Fritioj Capra´s fan!), wouldn´t you fall at the other side, equally exaggerated ? Negation of Science ? a "Wordless" contemplation of what arises ? You see,despite the firm stand of some scientists, at present times Science has a almost full detachment of the "Phenomenologie" and its reification of events. In my opinion the middle path is the rule in this question. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard:" When conditions such > as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are > sufficient to allow pa~n~na to > arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what > is what without any forced > attempts at conceptual characterization." ---------------------------------------------------- Could you abrogate the labour of mind ( only one of the six senses) on understanding reality ? Is insight only non-conceptual characterization ? Without the help of mind there could´t be even the notion of insight ! Metta, Ícaro > > With metta, > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24290 From: alpha16draconis Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: Mike, I studied under the late Ven. U Vimala of Burma between 1982-1985 when he the abbot of the Buddhist Temple on Treutland Ave. in Nashville, TN. He instructed me in the Vipassana method of the late great Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. Ven. U. Vimala studied mediation under the Most Ven. U. Pandita of the Mahasi Meditation Center in Burma, but I believe he had studied under dozens of teachers in the course of his life. He was proficient in all 41 kinds of meditation and spoke of doing the rare corpse meditations where one contemplates impermanence upon worm-ridden corpses. He also practiced forest meditation at some point. He was about 48 in 1985 and was initiated as a novice around 11 or 12. I was told he was the equivalent of a professor in his own country and was very knowledgeable about Burmese medicinal plants. I was told by Mr. Maung Tin Wa that he returned to Burma(Myanmar) and passed away from health complications. Stephen Maddux > Hi Stephen, > > Interesting! I've always wondered about kasina meditation since it seems > to've been quite commonplace in the Buddha's day. Do you know what your > teacher's sources were? I've found bits and pieces regarding colored discs > representing the elements and so on (in Vism.?) but don't remember much. > > Nice to meet you. > > mike > 24291 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seven meanings of bhaava. Dear Nina and all, Nina: > Bhava is translated as state of existence. > Bhaava: Jim gave us seven meanings: > padattha, word meaning. > satta: existence. > adippaya: intention. > kriyaa: function, activity. > sabhaava: with its own nature or characteristic. > liila: grace, charm. > purisitthindriya: faculty of masculinity. The last item includes the faculty of femininity also (purisa-ITTHI-indriya). The source of these seven meanings is a 12th cent. Pali dictionary/thesaurus called the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (verse 807). Adippaya should be adhippaaya. Jim 24292 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics In a message dated 8/16/2003 11:37:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. > > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. > > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > even attempt it. > > nori > Hi nori Assuming you are talking about the USA, its nice that you are free to practice dhamma in a country that is so corrupt, greedy, and manipulative. A lot of those other "nice" countries would be forcing you what to think or throwing you in jail or killing you for such views. Or you'd simply be poor and spending all your time worried about survival, no time to practice dhamma. How nice that you are able to express your ideas by means of corporations that are causing unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. Corporations like the power companies, Internet service providers, telephone companies; corporations providing computers, the clothes you wear, the bed you sleep on, the TV and stereo you use, the CDs or DVDs you use, the car you drive, appliances, home buiding, the planes you may flies to take a trip, the hotels you might stay in, the restaurants you might eat at, the grocery stores you buy food at and all the greedy corporations supplying the grocery stores which their food products, the greedy drug companies that may save your life someday. If corporations keep up their "harmful ways" we may end up finding ourselves in a utopia. In case you didn't notice, the countries that have famine are the same countries with virtually no corporations. How can that be? Yea, you guessed it, its this, greedy country/government that gives away by far the most food and money to poor countries. Damn, another contradiction. Good luck on your Dhamma studies. I think you'll need it. If you cant figure out that the USA is the most charitable country in history, and the reason is due to good hearted people, government, and corporations; I think the complexity of the Dhamma is well beyond your capabilities. Well, perhaps when you say "our government" you are from an Islamic country or France? In that case strike the above, you may have a point. TG 24293 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg]wrong livelihood Hello Nina, > What a heartbreaking story, to part with the cattle. > Of course, there are also many kusala cittas, as Rob K > also explained when quoting from Ledi Sayadaw. Did you > get rid of all cattle now? ----------- I have many happy memories of lovely animals that I've owned but heartbreaking stories go with every one of them -- as they say in the country, "where there's livestock, there's deadstock." There is tremendous scope for improvement in Australian meat industries: animals can be given a reasonably long and happy life. There is no benefit in treating them cruelly but cruel, inefficient practices are entrenched. Generally speaking, cattlemen are afraid to show regard for animals -- in case they look weak. ----------- > It is difficult to change one's profession, how did you > do it? ----------- Actually, the profession I was trained in was law. As a young man, I threw in a secure job and persuaded my wife we should move to the country -- to live the good life. After thirteen years, in 1993, we were happy to move back to the coast. I set up a retail plant nursery but it didn't last. I haven't been able to earn much but my wife has always had a good job. Thanks for your interest, I hope you're right about those kusala cittas :-) Kind regards, Ken H 24294 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 8/17/03 5:03:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > dear Howard: > Howard:" I think that > >labelling cittas in any terms not only emphasizes > >the subjective pole of the > >mindstate, possibly reinforcing the sense of > >"observing self", but also activates > >the conceptual faculty with regard to the objective > >pole, frequently > >reinforcing our tendency to reify the object and > >also compromising the directness of the > >experiencing and forcing a sense of "hard > >separation" between subject and > >object. I think it best, to the extent possible, to > >*wordlessly* attend to what > >arises with as much relaxed clarity as conditions > >permit." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Respectfully butting in, uprighted upaasaka! > > Are you supposing a Phenomenological perspective ? > Without lying down besides an exaggerated viewpoint > of a direct link between Science with Buddhism ( no, I > am not a Fritioj Capra´s fan!), wouldn´t you fall at > the other side, equally exaggerated ? Negation of > Science ? a "Wordless" contemplation of what arises ? > You see,despite the firm stand of some scientists, > at present times Science has a almost full detachment > of the "Phenomenologie" and its reification of > events. > In my opinion the middle path is the rule in this > question. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard:" When conditions such > >as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are > >sufficient to allow pa~n~na to > >arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what > >is what without any forced > >attempts at conceptual characterization." > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Could you abrogate the labour of mind ( only one > of the six senses) on understanding reality ? Is > insight only non-conceptual characterization ? Without > the help of mind there could´t be even the notion of > insight ! > > Metta, Ícaro > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > >star at dawn, a bubble > >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > >a flickering lamp, a > >phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > >Sutra) > > ================================== You are correct that my perspective is phenomenological. But that does not mean that I do not make a subject-object distinction or a nama-rupa distinction. I simply think that an extreme of reification at either pole misses the middle way. The content of the Bahiya Sutta is relevant to what I'm saying here. I do certainly agree that intellectual/conceptual understanding of the Dhamma is very important in a supportive role, and can be usefully engaged in during "contemplations". This level of investigation and the resulting conceptual understanding obtained provide a foundation that is very important to the practice, perhaps essential. I engage in discursive, conceptual contemplation and study of the Dhamma much of the time, in fact. But during vipassana bhavana, whether in formal "meditation mode" or engaged in moment-to-moment mindfulness and investigation of dhammas, I think that thinking gets in the way and hinders the arising of enlightenment factors. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24295 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Christine, Not trying to convince you, but here are some additional points that I can add to this discussion. 1) Buddha teachings sometimes means more than one things. For example, when he talked about the 8-fold path, I think he was talking about from both samatha and vipassana standpoint, from both conventional speech, and from ultimate realities. I don't think that if we take from the "right livelihood" that one shouldn't become a fisherman if one could avoid, that there is anything wrong with it. 2) On the other hand, if you consider that there is nothing but the realities in this world. What is right livelihood? Whenver there is the abstentation from doing crooked thing in regard to making a living, whenever there is mindfulness being aware of the realities, and whenver the 8-fold path arises. Realities (and truths) are moment by moment only --- there is nothing beyond this. When we consider a person, I think it is more precise to consider the moments rather the person as a whole (which doesn't really exist anyway ;-) ). A butcher may be kind to his calves when he are raising them, then he kills them, and then he sells the meat that he kills. When he is kind and treats his calves well, that's kusala kamma, and that surely will give good result. When he kills them (which is when there is no right livelihood), that's is akusala kamma that would result in being born in hell. When he sells the meat honestly, refusing to cheat (with the weight and such) even when urged otherwise, he is having a right livelihood. Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I do the same in regard to others. I have wrong livelihood whenever I commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I refrain. Other people are the same. No people - only realities flow on uninterrupted. kom 24296 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Icaro and Nori, Realized a mistake below, overgeneralizing: ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics I wrote, >> When hatred and greed > > are present, clinging to self is never far away. For the sotapanna on, as I understand it, dosa and lobha may still arise but not self-view. That said, I take all your points Ic--thanks! mike 24297 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Well--said! Especially: > Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is > way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I > do the same in regard to others. > I have wrong livelihood whenever I > commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I > refrain. Other people are the same. No people - only realities flow on > uninterrupted. > kom 24298 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Mike: Mike: "For the sotapanna on, as I understand it, dosa and > lobha may still arise but > not self-view. That said, I take all your points > Ic--thanks!" ---------------------------------------------------- Enjoy it, Number One! About the Sotapana role and Akusala Cittas, I must add that Sotapanna eradicated the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th and 11th types of Akusala consciousness: 1. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam, 2. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam' ekam, 5. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam, 6. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam. 11. Upekkhasahagatam vicikicchasampayuttam ekam. Translating (as better as I can...): 1. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with pleasure, and connected with wrong view, 2. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and connected with wrong view, 5. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and connected with wrong view, 6. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with indifference, and connected with wrong view, 11. One consciousness, accompanied with indifference, and connected with doubts He has destroyed too the two Fetters (samyojana) - Sakkayaditthi (self-illusion) and Vicikiccha (doubts). Take all my points, Mike!!! I only hope to clear up my grammatical errors before reaching Nibanna! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24299 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom (and Christine) - In a message dated 8/17/03 7:13:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Christine, > > Not trying to convince you, but here are some additional points that I > can add to this discussion. > > 1) Buddha teachings sometimes means more than one things. For > example, when he talked about the 8-fold path, I think he was talking > about from both samatha and vipassana standpoint, from both > conventional speech, and from ultimate realities. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Kom, what is the 8-fold path from the samatha standpoint? I don't understand that. ------------------------------------------------- I don't think that if we > > take from the "right livelihood" that one shouldn't become a fisherman if > one could avoid, that there is anything wrong with it. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get which way you are going here. Are you saying that being a fisherman is or is not right livelihood? I don't personally think that being a fisherman or being a soldier or a seller of alcoholic beverages or even a seller of munitions necessarily makes one a "monster", I also don't think that any of these occupations makes it to a right livelihood list. -------------------------------------------------- > > 2) On the other hand, if you consider that there is nothing but the > realities in this world. What is right livelihood? Whenver there is the > abstentation from doing crooked thing in regard to making a living, > whenever there is mindfulness being aware of the realities, and > whenver the 8-fold path arises. Realities (and truths) are moment by > moment only --- there is nothing beyond this. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: True. What we call having a particular livelihood is a mentally assembled complex of a multitude of interrelated events over a long period of time. ------------------------------------------------- > > When we consider a person, I think it is more precise to consider the > moments rather the person as a whole (which doesn't really exist > anyway ;-) ). A butcher may be kind to his calves when he are raising > them, then he kills them, and then he sells the meat that he kills. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: However, the intention involved in his raising of them and tending to them, his purpose, is ongoing and akusala. ---------------------------------------------------- > > When he is kind and treats his calves well, that's kusala kamma, and > that surely will give good result. When he kills them (which is when > there is no right livelihood), that's is akusala kamma that would result in > being born in hell. When he sells the meat honestly, refusing to cheat > (with the weight and such) even when urged otherwise, he is having a > right livelihood. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: But the basis of the entire matter is the intention to slaughter for profit. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is > way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I > do the same in regard to others. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that one needs to be *very careful* with such an approach. When one sees only the trees, but not the forest, one does not see all there is, and when things become broken down and depersonalized in the wrong way, evil actions could result. There was a group of ascetics at the time of the Buddha that excused killing by sword as simply a matter of solidity passing through solidity! -------------------------------------------------------- I have wrong livelihood whenever I > > commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I > refrain. Other people are the same. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But an initial and repeated choice in favor of an occupation that will consistently or ultimately lead to akusala acts is, itself, akusala. -------------------------------------------------------- No people - only realities flow on > > uninterrupted. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But a world of "realities" which, at the conventional level of und erstanding, is a world of slaughter is not as good as one which is a world of love and peace. There is danger in extreme views, Kom. --------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24300 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: > Howard:"Kom, what is the 8-fold path from the samatha > standpoint? I don't > understand that." > ------------------------------------------------- Perhaps an approach on the Majjhima-patipada may clarify the question: 1) Mindfulness: samma-sati 2) Wisdom: samma-ditthi 3) Concentration: samma-samadhi 4) Right Thinking: samma-samkappa 5) Right Effort: samma-vayama These factors are needed to walk the Middle Way with awareness...but not to categorize into likes or dislikes. This is not neutral(Abhyakata) either. Can one call this free-awareness Samatha ? ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: "I don't get which way you are going here. Are you saying that being a > fisherman is or is not right livelihood? I don't > personally think that being a > fisherman or being a soldier or a seller of > alcoholic beverages or even a > seller of munitions necessarily makes one a > "monster", I also don't think that > any of these occupations makes it to a right > livelihood list." > -------------------------------------------------- I can recall an example of Vinaya: Bhikkhus cannot deal with remedies, making it, selling it or make Pharmacology source of profits. But laypersons are free to take these and other business and be happy anyway. As a matter of fact - at least at Theravada! - only real Bhikkhus are real good buddhists! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24301 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:14pm Subject: Re: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- > > Nina Van gorkom: "We read in the 'Discourse on Fools and the Wise' > (Middle Length Sayings Ill, 129) that the Buddha, when he was > staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, spoke to > the monks about the sufferings in hell and about the anguishes of > animal birth. The Buddha said: > > Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into > the sea. An easterly wind might > Hi Robert, I gather the operative word here is "fool." Some wise people are said to have been reborn in animal worlds without being stuck there for near eternity. One sutta I vaguely recall, has a wise woman with a weakness for sense pleasure, going from the human realm to the deva realm to the animal realm then back to the human realm where she promptly attains Stream-Entry. It begins with a nice little verse: "In Brahma-world she shines bright, In pig-pen too she finds delight." :-) Kind regards, Ken H 24302 From: alpha16draconis Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: Kasina Meditation Question --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Suan Lu Zaw, I have dozens of little books that were indended for English speaking bhikkhus that were printed in Burma and given to me by Ven. U. Vimala to assist me in Right Understanding. From: Purpose of Practicing Kammatthana Meditation by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw translated into english by U Min Swe( Min Kyaw Thu) limited to 1000 copies printed in 1980. This short tratise gives concise information about Kammathana meditation. Q. Why should kammathana meditation be practiced? A. Kammathana meditation should be practiced so as to reach nibbana, therby escaping from all kinds of misery, such as old age, death, ect.(pg. 1) Only if vipassana insight meditation is practiced, will one be able to realize nibbana and be completely free from all kinds of misery and sufferings. There are two modes of practicing vipassana meditation. They are: (1) practicing samatha using it as a vehicle for the attainment of vipassana nana. (2) practicing kammathana vipassana pure and directly without the basic exercise of samatha. A person who practices kamatthanna vipassana meditation without using samatha as a ground work, is known as suddha-vipassanayanika. A person who practices meditation for realization of nibbana making use of samatha as a frame-work is known as samathayanika, which means a person who 'makes his way' to nibbana using samatha as a vehicle. (pg 6) FORTY KAMMMATHANAS This samatha-kammatthana comprises (40) sorts. They are: 1. Kasina (10) 2. Asuba (10) 3. Anussati (10) 4. Brahmavihara (4) 5. Aruppa (4) 6. Ahara Patikkulasanna(1) 7. Catudhatuvavattaamna(1) (pg.7) TEN SORTS OF KASINA 1.Earth 2.Water 3.Fire 4.Wind 5.Brownish-deep purple kassina 6.Yellow kasina 7.Red kasina 8.White kasina 9.Light kasina 10.Open air-sky kasina (pg. 7) THE MEDITATION METHOD OF SAMATHA_KAMMATTHANA IN BRIEF: Using as example the pathavi-kasina(earth kasina) as the subject of contemplation, the person should fix his eyes upon a spot of earth on the ground or a circle of earth-device and contemplate mentally noting pathavi, pathavi, or earth, earth, earth. After repeated contemplation for a considerable time, the vivid image or nimitta of the earth device will appear in the mind when the eyes are closed as clearly as when they are open. The appearance of the mental image is called Uggaha-nimitta(acquired image). If this nimitta becomes fixed and steady in the mind, he can go to any place and take up a posture of either sitting, walking, standing or lying. He should continue to contemplate on the Uggatha-nimitta by mentally saying, earth, earth, earth. While contemplating, it may happen that the mind does not remain fixed on its object and is likely to wander to other objects in the following manner. 1. The mind may think of desirable or agreeable objects according to its own inclination. This is called kamacchanda-nivarana (sensual lust) 2. The mind may dwell on thoughts of despair and anger. This is called Vyapada-nivarana (ill-will) 3. Slackness in contemplation may take place and the mind becomes dull and foggy. This is called Thina-middha-nivarana(sloth and torpor) 4. The mind may become unstable and fleeting or restles, and then recollecting the past misdeeds in speech and bodily actions and is likely to become worried. These are known as Uddhacca-kukkucca- nivarana(restlessness and worry) 5. Thoughts may arise 'whether the contemplation which is being undertaken is a right method, or whether it is capable of bringing beneficial results , or whether there is any chance to achieve any good results. This is Vicikiccha-nivarana(skeptical doubt) (pg. 14) When these five hindrances appear, they should be discarded and rejected as they occur, and the mind should be immediately brought back to the original object of Uggaha-nimitta (acquired-image) letting it dwell constantly on it, mentally noting... earth, earth, earth. If the Uggaha-nimitta(acquired-image) disappears from the mind, one should go back to the kasina device and contemplate it again by fixing the eyes on the device until the Uggaha-nimitta is formed again in the mind's eye. Thereafter, one should return to the desired place and proceed with contemplation as before whether standing, walking, sitting or lying. Carrying on thus the contemplation of the acquired-image repeatedly for a long time, the object assumes a very brilliant and crystalline appearance quite unlike that of the original. This is called Patibhaga-nimitta( counterpart-image). At this time the mind is free from all Nivaranas(hindrances). This state of mind is known as Upacara-samathi (proximate concentration. Now, by continually fixing the mind with this acquired-image on counterpart image, the mind reaches a state as if it were sinking into the object and remains fixed in it. This state of fixedness and stability of mind is known as Appana-samathi(ecstatic concentration). (pg 15) Appana-samathi is of four kinds. 1. First Jhana 2. Second Jhana 3. Third Jhana 4. Forth Jhana (pg. 16) I'll end here for a while. Stephen Maddux 24303 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Icaro, Thanks for the added details--always appreciated! mike p.s. Never mind your grammatical errors--how on earth did you know enough of the language to attack the Dhammasangali(sp?) and Vism. in Paali?! ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics > Dear Mike: > Mike: "For the sotapanna on, as I understand it, dosa > and > > lobha may still arise but > > not self-view. That said, I take all your points > > Ic--thanks!" > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Enjoy it, Number One! > About the Sotapana role and Akusala Cittas, I must > add that Sotapanna eradicated the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th > and 11th types of Akusala consciousness: > > 1. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > asankharikam ekam, > 2. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > sasankharikam' ekam, > 5. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > asankharikam ekam, > 6. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > sasankharikam ekam. > 11. Upekkhasahagatam vicikicchasampayuttam ekam. > > Translating (as better as I can...): > > 1. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with > pleasure, and connected with wrong view, > 2. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with > pleasure, and connected with wrong view, > 5. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with > indifference, and connected with wrong view, > 6. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with > indifference, and connected with wrong view, > 11. One consciousness, accompanied with indifference, > and connected with doubts > > He has destroyed too the two Fetters (samyojana) - > Sakkayaditthi (self-illusion) and Vicikiccha (doubts). > > Take all my points, Mike!!! > I only hope to clear up my grammatical errors before > reaching Nibanna! 24304 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:46pm Subject: Re: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > > > > Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into > > the sea. An easterly wind might > > > > Hi Robert, > > I gather the operative word here is "fool." Some wise > people are said to have been reborn in animal worlds > without being stuck there for near eternity. One sutta I > vaguely recall, has a wise woman with a weakness for > sense pleasure, going from the human realm to the deva > realm to the animal realm then back to the human realm > where she promptly attains Stream-Entry. It begins with a > nice little verse: > > "In Brahma-world she shines bright, > In pig-pen too she finds delight." > > _____________ That's right (as I understand it) Ken. The Brahmajala sutta commentary says that the one with extreme wrongview is the one who becomes 'rooted in the round" . There are many cases of those who were beginning to develop right understanding- but who took animal or hellish rebirth, who soon came back to human life. Even the Bodhisata\ta , after gaining prediction of Buddhahood many times was born as animal and even in hell. Another example is queen Malika - died, went to hell for 7 days , then to deva world, visited Buddha and became a sotapanna. Robert 24305 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Kom, what is the 8-fold path from the samatha standpoint? I don't > understand that. > ------------------------------------------------- One can be said to have samma-samathi without it being a factor of the 8-fold path (in mundane or supramundane), this is the same way for the other samma-factors. I see this as being samatha, momentary suppression of defilement thru various means including recollection of the dhamma, or jhana development. > Howard: > I don't get which way you are going here. Are you saying > that being a > fisherman is or is not right livelihood? I don't personally think > that being a > fisherman or being a soldier or a seller of alcoholic beverages or even a > seller of munitions necessarily makes one a "monster", I also > don't think that > any of these occupations makes it to a right livelihood list. I am taking the momentary positions more than anything else. If a monk steals to live, is that any less wrong than a fisherman who kills? If a fisherman is developing panna, is it any less good than a monk who does? There are fisherman and soldiers who became sotapanna. I think it is then that we begin to see the true purity of right livelihood (as a factor of the path). > > > > When we consider a person, I think it is more precise to consider the > > moments rather the person as a whole (which doesn't really exist > > anyway ;-) ). A butcher may be kind to his calves when he are raising > > them, then he kills them, and then he sells the meat that he kills. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > However, the intention involved in his raising of them and > tending to > them, his purpose, is ongoing and akusala. > ---------------------------------------------------- Some of the parents have kids being afraid that when they get older, there would be nobody who would take care of them, but I certainly wouldn't say that the entire time that they are raising the kids, it is all for selfish motives. Kindness is kindness, and selfishness is selfishness. They don't mix, even if they alternate. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But the basis of the entire matter is the intention to > slaughter for > profit. > ------------------------------------------------------ ditto above. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But an initial and repeated choice in favor of an > occupation that will > consistently or ultimately lead to akusala acts is, itself, akusala. Some are born into the profession. This might not be obvious to us in the free-world, but there are less fortunate people. The decision to do something is not free will (since there is no kandha that is unconditioned), but a reality conditioned by complex factors including being among good or bad friends, familial status, pre-disposition, current occurrences, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------- > No people - only realities flow on > > > uninterrupted. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But a world of "realities" which, at the conventional level of und > erstanding, is a world of slaughter is not as good as one which > is a world of love > and peace. There is danger in extreme views, Kom. > --------------------------------------------------- > Because there is no perfect world of love and peace. Even in the world where the Buddha lives, there are still external elements of defilements. I don't think there is any danger in views that *match* the truths, views that lead toward higher knowledge, relinquishment, and nibbana, but there are dangers in views that don't. kom 24306 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Dear Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, V:> This is how I see it: > > Living alone in solitude does not mean that one lives without > friendship and association with the good and virtuous(kalyamittata). > > Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a > house crowded with children and possession is not living alone. It > is attachment. ..... I undersatand what you're saying. You make many interesting points and I agree with you that those who have eradicated all attachment to sense pleasures (i.e anagamis and arahants) would have no inclination at all for accumulating family or living anything resembling our dusty household life. However, I’m not at all convinced that living alone without family or possessions will of itself lead to any decrease in attachment. You give the analogy of giving up smoking and the withdrawal symptoms experienced. However, even though one may get used to the monk’s life or the ‘living alone’ life in this way, nothing has been done to eradicate the anusaya (latent tendencies) or roots (as Mike puts it) of the problems, if wisdom hasn’t been developed. The particular tendencies may not appear to manifest again for a good long while -- maybe not again in this lifetime even -- but the tendencies are still there. The latent desires and inclinations will re-surface and become apparent under different circumstances such as if, for example, a monk disrobes or if the person living alone returns to family life. I’m certainly not suggesting such a course of action to test them out;-) As Robert K quoted before, wisdom is the ridge pole: “The power of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Bhikkhus, of these five the most important and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom Just as the ridge pole is the most important and it is the one which holds together the rest of a gabled roof, in the same manner, of the powers of faith, effort mindfulness concentration and wisdom, the most important, and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom.” http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/002-balavaggo-e.htm ..... V:> To realize the cessation of dukkha, living alone in solitude is > better than living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or > boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. ..... This is rather like the ‘right livelihood’ argument, I think. The idea seems to be if one organises one’s lifestyle in a certain way to follow what one conceptually understands to be the way that one should live without attachment or without causing any harm, a decrease in attachment and harm and an increase in metta and wisdom will follow. Like we saw in Meghiya’ s case, I think this argument has flaws and was not the instruction given by the Buddha. Indeed, when there is the idea of another place, another time, another lifestyle, it suggests a lack of confidence in the value of the Dhamma and the power of wisdom to understand the present reality. Thinking of situations and lifestyles takes one away from this same reality and an idea that one can judge the attachment by the outer appearance is likely to lead one into trouble, I think. For example, One may be very attached to living alone or to not having possessions around one. I still recall how hard it was for me to give up life in a tiny bare cell (with no electricity) in the forest in Sri Lanka to return to England and try to help my family during a difficult time. Strong clinging to self can have many labels, justifications (including spiritual) and outer appearances, I still find. ..... V:> Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a > house crowded with children and possession and saying it is possible > to live like that without attachment is like having the habit of > smoking cigarette and saying it is possible to smoke like that > without addiction. ..... I don’t think anyone suggests for a minute that they can live in any way without attachment. Remember the example given in the commentary to the Udana about “seeing fear in sins the size of an atom”? There will be no shortage of attachment to be seen whatever our lifestyle. Let me finish off by quoting some relevant extracts about Anathapindika, always highly praised by the Buddha. I can now quote from the DPPN on-line: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html Anáthapindika ============== "A banker (setthi) of Sávatthi who became famous because of his unparalleled generosity to the Buddha. His first meeting with the Buddha was during the first year after the Enlightenment, in Rájagaha (the story is given in Vin.ii.154ff; SA.i.240ff, etc.), whither Anáthapindika had come on business. The Buddha was staying in the Sítavana, and when Anáthapindika reached there spirits opened the door for him. He found the Buddha walking up and down, meditating in the cool air of the early dawn. The Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various aspects of his teaching. Anáthapindika was immediately converted and became a Sotápanna. He spent eighteen crores on the purchase of Jetavana and a like sum on the construction of the vihára; another eighteen crores were spent in the festival of dedication. He fed one hundred monks in his house daily in addition to meals provided for guests, people of the village, invalids, etc. Five hundred seats were always ready in his house for any guests who might come (AA.i.208-9. He fed 1,000 monks daily says DhA.i.128; but see J.iii.119, where a monk, who had come from far away and had missed the meal hour, had to starve.). Anáthapindika married a lady called Puññalakkhaná (J.ii.410; J.iii.435, she was the sister of the setthi of Rájagaha. SA.i.240); he had a son Kála and three daughters, Mahá-Subhaddá, Cúla-Subhaddá and Sumaná. (Besides Kála, Anáthapindika had another son, who joined the Order under Subhúti Thera; AA.ii.865). Mention is also made of a daughter-in law, Sujátá by name, daughter of Dhanañjaya and the youngest sister of Visákhá. She was very haughty and ill-treated the servants (J.ii.347). The son, in spite of his father's efforts, showed no piety until he was finally bribed to go to the vihára and listen to the Buddha's preaching (see Kála). The daughters, on the other hand, were most dutiful and helped their father in ministering to the monks. The two elder ones attained to the First Fruit of the Path, married, and went to live with the families of their husbands. Sumaná obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died; she was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f). ..... [Victor: take note about Sumana!!!!] ...... The Bhadraghata Játaka (J.ii.431) tells us of a nephew of Anáthapindika who squandered his inheritance of forty crores. His uncle gave him first one thousand and then another five hundred with which to trade. This also he squandered. Anáthapindika then gave him two garments. On applying for further help the man was taken by the neck and pushed out of doors. A little later he was found dead by a side wall. All his servants, however, were not so intelligent. A slave woman of his, seeing that a fly had settled on her mother, hit her with a pestle in order to drive it away, and killed her (J.i.248f). ..... [!!!] ..... All the banker's friends were not virtuous; one of them kept a tavern (J.i.251). As a result of Anáthapindika's selfless generosity he was gradually reduced to poverty. But he continued his gifts even when he had only bird-seed and sour gruel. .........Buddha of his own accord preached to him on various occasions; several such sermons are mentioned in the Anguttara Nikáya: * on the importance of having a well-guarded mind like a well-protected gable in a house (A.i.261f); * on the benefits the recipient of food obtains (life, beauty, happiness, strength); * on the four obligations that make up the pious householder's path of duty (gihisámikiccáni - waiting on the Order with robes, food, lodgings, medical requirements. Referred to also in S.v.387, where Anáthapindika expresses his satisfaction that he had never failed in these obligations); * on the four conditions of success that are hard to win (wealth gotten by lawful means, good report, longevity, happy rebirth); * on the four kinds of happiness which a householder should seek (ownership, wealth, debtless ness, blamelessness) (these various tetrads are given in A.ii.64ff). * on the five kinds of enjoyment which result from wealth rightfully obtained (enjoyment - experienced by oneself and by one's friends and relations, security in times of need, ability to pay taxes and to spend on one's religion, the giving of alms to bring about a happy rebirth, A.iii.45-6); * the five things which are very desirable but difficult to obtain (long life, beauty, happiness, glory, good condition of rebirths, A.iii.47-8); * the five sinful acts that justify a man's being called wicked (hurting of life, etc. A.iii.204); * the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind (evidently a gentle warning to Anáthapindika, A.iii.206-7). ....... and we also find him consulting the Buddha regarding the marriage of his daughter, Cola Subhaddá (DhA.iii.466). Anáthapindika died before the Buddha............ ......Later he fed the Elders with food from his own cooking-pot, but quite soon afterwards he died and was born in the Tusita heaven. That same night he visited the Buddha at Jetavana and uttered a song of praise of Jetavana and of Sáriputta who lived there, admonishing others to follow the Buddha's teaching. In heaven he will live as long as Visákhá and Sakka (DA.iii.740). Anáthapindika was not only a shrewd business man but also a keen debater. The Anguttara Nikáya (A.v.185-9) records a visit he paid to the Paribbájakas when he could think of nothing better to do. A lively debate ensues regarding their views and the views of the Buddha as expounded by Anáthapindika. The latter silences his opponents. When the incident is reported to the Buddha, he speaks in high praise of Anáthapindika and expresses his admiration of the way in which he handled the discussion. During the time of Padumattara Buddha Anáthapindika had been a householder of Hamsavatí. One day he heard the Buddha speak of a lay-disciple of his as being the chief of alms-givers. The householder resolved to be so designated himself in some future life and did many good deeds to that end. His wish was fulfilled in this present life. Anáthapindika is sometimes referred to as Mahá Anáthapindika to distinguish him from Cúla Anáthapindika." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oops - it all seemed relevant to the thread and got a little long. Look forward to your comments, Victor. Metta, Sarah ===== 24307 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:57am Subject: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Oh Howard (and others), I forgot to mention one more thing. Do you know that the Bodhisatta, one who is developing all the 30 perfections to become a samma-sambuddha, cannot keep any of the precepts perfectly except for that related to lying? How do you think we would do, comparing to the Bodhisatta? Even if we are not in the wrong profession in this life, we might be in the next. Are you sure you can get out of it? I think we can only do the best we can. kom 24308 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:48am Subject: Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder (was Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion) Hi Jim (& Victor), --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > I think that would have made sense if 'dassita' were taken as 'seen' > but the normal Pali word in this sense would have been 'di.t.tha-'. ..... I see I’m getting my roots tangled up again and appreciate your ‘weeding’ and the ‘visibility’. Like you, I first read the Visuddhimagga almost 3O years ago. In those days, it seemed pretty straight-forward -- something like a detailed manual to fit into my meditation experiences;-) These days, just a sentence or phrase is very profound and difficult to even comprehend intellectually. Thank you, Nina, Larry and all for all your comments to really help us appreciate this profundity. ..... >I found one occurence of a > translation of 'dassitamaggena' by Masefield in Peta Stories, p. 160: > (Going) along the route described (by him . . .). .... Thank your for the reference. In this context, clearly ‘magga’ refers to a regular route or track. Jim, I hope life has returned to normal in Ontario. At least if you have a blackout in mid-winter, you won’t have to worry about the fridge;-) I understand the blackout on the Canadian side was caused by US negligence and vice versa;-) ***** Victor, Jim’s reference reminded me of the unusual Kannamunda Peta story. I won’t go into any details, but just to say we read about the 500 women reborn as vimaanapeti(?transl: ?heavenly ghosts) who enjoyed ‘heavenly excellence in the absence of any men’. After 550 years, however, they became dissatisfied and started plotting how to attract men to visit them by sending heavenly fruits along the Ganges. When eventually a forester followed the trail, they ran up to him saying, “’this man belongs to me! This man belongs to me!”. The poor forester took fright, but the king followed in his footsteps..... Metta, Sarah p.s Jim, the story about the 'Contempt for the Relics', p221, which I've quoted from before, really helped me appreciate the importance of respect in this regard. There is also a lot of detail about the relics in the Comy to the Parinibbana Sutta, but much of it is in other commentaries as well. ===== 24309 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Dear Howard , I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your post and I'm thinking about the points you bring up. I'll try to answer in a few days Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In> Thank you for the additional details. I've re-read the article at the > web site and find myself *quite* the unbeliever. > After 2500 years, the jhanas are attainable, analytic insights, if > that includes the tilakkhana, are attainable to *some* degree even in very > ordinary people such as myself, and to considerably higher degree in others [ this message have been removed] 24310 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, S:Sorry for the usual delay and many thanks for typing in all of note 68. It’s great to have it to refer back without needing to retype;-) L: >I agree. There has to be right view in order to develop right concentration. And, seemingly, there has to be right concentration in order for understanding to arise. What I am trying to understand is why understanding (panna) doesn't arise. Maybe because the 8 path factors haven't arisen. ..... S:I think that in the beginning, moments of awareness (satipatthana) are so brief and occasional, followed by attachment, doubt, thinking and so on, that it seems like panna will never develop. However, this is just thinking and more clinging to results. By understanding more and more precisely about different namas and rupas (of course this is mostly intellectual at the start), then sati and panna do develop and take care of themselves. Concentrating, labelling, fixing a particular object in mind or trying to be aware in any shape or form (including arranging a ‘special’ time or place for it) are all likely to have the opposite effect, i.e the effect of stronger clinging to self, imho. On the contrary, reading, considering and questioning as you’re doing here is very beneficial, I think. ..... L: >I have exhausted all my thoughts on concentration on Jon but I would be interested in whatever you have to say in regard to the questions I asked him. .... S: I think all your questions are good ones, Larry and they’ve elicited some very helpful answers from Jon, imho.I would especially recommend re-reading these posts of his: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19762.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20104.html L: >Also I think a better understanding of concentration could improve learning in general. ..... S: I think the most valuable thing from these discussions about concentration is perhaps seeing how usually we take unwholesome concentration for wholesome concentration and how the clinging to it may improve some kinds of learning but is definitely not helpful for the development of satipatthana and may partly answer why panna doesn’t arise. I think we have to be very clear about the purpose of studying and hearing the Dhamma and be very sincere and honest about the nature of attachment at this moment. As Chris, pointed out, it’s not always what we want to hear and may condition dosa, but we have to remember the courage and good cheer that Azita often reminds us of. Metta and anumodaana with all your help with the Vism thread. Let me know if there's anything else I can add here and how this sounds. Sarah ===== 24311 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Mike: Mike:" Thanks for the added details--always appreciated!" -------------------------------------------------- Pas du tout, Number One! You must consider also that Sakadagami weakens the potentiality of the 9th and 10th types of Akusala consciousness by attenuating the two Fetters - Kamaraga (sense-desire) and Patigha (Hatred).The Anagami eradicates the above two types of consciousness as he has destroyed the aforesaid two Fetters. And the Arahat, as a friend of mine could say... is an other story!!! -------------------------------------------------- Mike: "p.s. Never mind your grammatical errors--how on > earth did you know enough > of the language to attack the Dhammasangali(sp?) and > Vism. in Paali?!" --------------------------------------------------- That´s not easy, Mike! First, even the best Pali-English Dicionary on net ( the Pali Text Society´s) has many lacks and deficienties. Other Pali Glossaries are so much poised on Doctrine to be straightly useful for everyone. In all these years surfing on net I´ve gathered a good bunch of sanskrit and Pali material: Winkner´s sanskrit grammar and dictionary (his lectures on Sandhi are precious!!!), many pali primers of many sources and procedences and some pali texts (ASCII files...terrible to read!)in personal ftp pages. With time and pacience - avec de la patiente on arrive a tout! - I could read the Dhammasangani. Because its simplicity and profundity of sound doctrine, I´ve ellected it my favourite work on Abhidhamma. Only now the www.tipitaka.org posted the complete Abhidhamma in good and clear reading fonts: I´ve downloaded already all of it and my pleasure on read it at a much more easily way is beyond any description I can do! Dhammasangani now rains down down down!!! Well, that it is, Number One. The Visuddhimagga I downloaded too from www.tipitaka.org, but it is much more hard to translate!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24312 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - In a message dated 8/18/03 4:58:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Oh Howard (and others), > > I forgot to mention one more thing. Do you know that the Bodhisatta, one > who is developing all the 30 perfections to become a samma-sambuddha, cannot > keep any of the precepts perfectly except for that related to lying? > > How do you think we would do, comparing to the Bodhisatta? Even if we are > not in the wrong profession in this life, we might be in the next. Are you > sure you can get out of it? I think we can only do the best we can. > > kom =========================== Kom, let me clarify. I expect NO ONE who is not an arahant to be "perfect" in fundamental matters, and in matters involving the paramitas, even an arahant will fall short compared to a Buddha. I see goodness of some degree, arising at various times, in *all* sentient beings, and I do not, in my own mind, condemn anyone as fully evil - in fact, I very much agree that what a person "is" is what he/she is at the moment. One disclaimer with respect to that latter point, though, is that aeons of volitional decisions have created character patterns and accumulations which give a predominant "set" to a sentient being. There are kusala and akusala mind-moments arising in all sentient beings, regardless of occupational choice. This even goes as far as primary character patterns are concerned, so that there can be loving butchers and hateful medical doctors. But the Buddha zeroed in on various conventional activities of a person's life that loom large in their effect on the person him/herself and on society. These are key activities involving intention, and include speech, action, > "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from > stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." > >> -- SN XLV 8 > , and finally right livelihood. The last of these impacts all aspects of one's life, as we all know from first hand experience. The Buddha didn't set it off as one of a very few listed areas by accident. And the fact that truly vicious Ugandan dictator Idi Amin was, no doubt, kindly to some on some occasions and experienced some kusala cittas was quite insufficient to overcome the monstrous career choice that he made, that he fought to maintain, and that he executed with such terrible glee. It is not sufficient for an adequate evaluation for us to sit back in our armchairs and calmly note that there was no person there, but just a flow of cittas, some kusala and some not. That fails to reveal the full and urgent realiity, as I see it. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24313 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/18/03 6:07:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard , > I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your post and I'm thinking > about the points you bring up. I'll try to answer in a few days > Robert > ========================== Thank you for this! You continue to bolster my immense respect for you. Whether we are in agreement or not on various issues, you always take the time and make the effort to listen and consider carefully and to accept good intentions as good intentions. I appreciate this enormously. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24314 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Kom and Howard, Seems to me that the references on this thread referring to conventional, 'ongoing' samma-ajivo, right livelihood, are correct in terms of 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), that is with regard to the conventional expressions in the pariyatti. This is all pa.n.natti (as lives, occupations, rebirths etc. are concepts, at least for practical purposes). References to pa.tipatti (practice) and pa.tivedha (attainment), though, are correct both in terms of vohaara-sacca and paramattha-sacca because they refer both to true concepts regarding ('ongoing') concepts and true concepts regarding (momentary) realities. So there is right livelihood that is conceptual (referring both to conventional occupation and to realities), right livelihood that is practical (pa.tipatti, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood) and right livelihood that is attainment (pa.tivedha, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood arising simultaneously with the other path-factors). Corrections welcome! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:10 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > I don't think there is any danger in views that *match* the truths, views > that lead toward higher knowledge, relinquishment, and nibbana, but there > are dangers in views that don't. 24315 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Mike (and Kom) - Any disagreement I may have with you on the following is picayune, and so will left undiscussed. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 9:25:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Hi Kom and Howard, > > Seems to me that the references on this thread referring to conventional, > 'ongoing' samma-ajivo, right livelihood, are correct in terms of > 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), that is with regard to the > conventional expressions in the pariyatti. This is all pa.n.natti (as > lives, occupations, rebirths etc. are concepts, at least for practical > purposes). References to pa.tipatti (practice) and pa.tivedha (attainment), > though, are correct both in terms of vohaara-sacca and paramattha-sacca > because they refer both to true concepts regarding ('ongoing') concepts and > true concepts regarding (momentary) realities. So there is right livelihood > that is conceptual (referring both to conventional occupation and to > realities), right livelihood that is practical (pa.tipatti, a moment of > abstinence from wrong livelihood) and right livelihood that is attainment > (pa.tivedha, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood arising > simultaneously with the other path-factors). > > Corrections welcome! > > mike > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24316 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: "Seems to me that the references on this thread > referring to conventional, > 'ongoing' samma-ajivo, right livelihood, are correct > in terms of > 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), that is with > regard to the > conventional expressions in the pariyatti. This is > all pa.n.natti (as > lives, occupations, rebirths etc. are concepts, at > least for practical > purposes). References to pa.tipatti (practice) and > pa.tivedha (attainment), > though, are correct both in terms of vohaara-sacca > and paramattha-sacca > because they refer both to true concepts regarding > ('ongoing') concepts and > true concepts regarding (momentary) realities." ---------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in, Number One! Conventional truths - Sammuit-sacca - are defined as concepts of forms, groups of things, places, time, conceptualized images and so on. The main level of Samma-ajivo is above this, at Paramattha-sacca. Concepts of panatti, patipatti and pativeddha may be considered as Lokiya ( vijjnana, cetasika and rupa). While Sammuit-Sacca is a conventional truth as concept,it´s something that either makes known or is known. The Paramattha-Sacca IS ultimate truth as "really" exist in reality. There are ultimates in mind and matter: this includes the Octuple Noble Path and, of course, samma-ajivo. Corrections are welcome too !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24317 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Thanks, Howard, As you can see, now Icaro has me wondering--there may be LESS to the paali term 'ajivo' than I've ascribed to it. I look forward to reading more especially from suttas using specifically the terms samma- and miccha-ajivo. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hi, Mike (and Kom) - > > Any disagreement I may have with you on the following is picayune, and > so will left undiscussed. :-) 24318 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Respectfully butting in, Number One! > > Conventional truths - Sammuit-sacca - are defined as > concepts of forms, groups of things, places, time, > conceptualized images and so on. Right-- > The main level of > Samma-ajivo is above this, at Paramattha-sacca. I may have been wrong about this--the sutta I was thinking of doesn't actually refer to ajivo, livelihood, but rather vaa.nijjo, trade or business. 'Trade' is clearly a concept--maybe ajivo (especially in the sense of a path factor) never is. In other words, these two are often used synonymously and that might be a big mistake in translation. So you're convinced that samma- and miccha-ajivo refer always, exclusively to paramattha dhammas and never to concepts (such as occupations)? > Concepts of panatti, patipatti and pativeddha may be > considered as Lokiya ( vijjnana, cetasika and rupa). > > While Sammuti-Sacca is a conventional truth as > concept,it´s something that either makes known or is > known. Right-- > The Paramattha-Sacca IS ultimate truth as > "really" exist in reality. There are ultimates in mind > and matter: this includes the Octuple Noble Path and, > of course, samma-ajivo. Understood. Thanks again! mike 24319 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:05am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > "is" is what he/she is at the moment. One disclaimer with respect to that > latter point, though, is that aeons of volitional decisions have created > character patterns and accumulations which give a predominant > "set" to a sentient > being. I think what is proximate has enormous influence regarding to how one turns out in this life. In the jataka story of the bodhisatta Jotipala, the Buddha was born into a family of wrong view. The commentaries said that, even if the perfection of the Buddha was like a big bon-fire, radiant into all the worlds, but in that life, it is like the fire being put out, only left with hardly-glowing coal, just being born into a family with the wrong views. Even when there was a sammasambuddha in that life, Jotipala didn't want to go to listen to the Buddha (and in fact said things that had results in his very last life) until his anagami friend made him realize how important it was to go. I certainly wouldn't equate somebody like Saddam Hussein to Mother Theresa, but what I am saying is that akusala is equivalent, and so is kusala. > right livelihood. The last of these impacts all aspects of one's > life, as we > all know from first hand experience. The Buddha didn't set it off > as one of a > very few listed areas by accident. And the fact that truly > vicious Ugandan > dictator Idi Amin was, no doubt, kindly to some on some occasions > and experienced > some kusala cittas was quite insufficient to overcome the > monstrous career > choice that he made, that he fought to maintain, and that he > executed with such > terrible glee. It is not sufficient for an adequate evaluation > for us to sit > back in our armchairs and calmly note that there was no person > there, but just > a flow of cittas, some kusala and some not. That fails to reveal > the full and > urgent realiity, as I see it. I see it as being true (regarding to the flow of cittas). What else is there but the realities now? Killing doesn't prevent one from developing panna, and even the killers should be given kindness and compassion. Take the example of the Buddha, without his great compassion, Angulimalla, the killers of 999 people, wouldn't have been able to achieve arahatship in his last life. We can realize that with the arising of kusala cittas, at that moment, there is ignorance that masks all realities --- the person cannot see that this is something not so nice. When we think about the defilements of others, we should see what is arising within ourselves. Is it kusala or akusala? Is it with panna or without? If we understand that this is mostly aversion (or even mana and self righteousness), then we are prone to worry less about other people's defilements. kom 24320 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:09am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello all, > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:kom@a...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 8:06 AM > We can realize that with the arising of kusala cittas, at that > moment, there is ignorance that masks all realities --- the > person cannot see that this is something not so nice. When we Ignorance strikes again!. This should say "the arising of akusala cittas." kom 24321 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:42am Subject: Asubha at Kaeng Kajan On one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too short to be the object of pleasure. I do understand the point (I think), but doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa (actually, even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of sukkha-vedanaa? To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings while I paint. mike 24322 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 12. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:15:33 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 12. Commentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 12. (A series) A Mind like Space: Relevant Sutta passage: Commentary: na katthaci pati.t.thitoti pathaviipabbatarukkhaadiisu ekasmimpi na pati.t.thito, As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in one place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree, yadi hi pathaviya.m pati.t.thito bhaveyya, pathaviyaa bhijjamaanaaya saheva bhijjeyya, If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, pabbate patamaane saheva pateyya, rukkhe chijjamaane saheva chijjeyya. and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. English: As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in one place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree. If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. Subcommentary: words: pati.t.thito: established nissito: dependent laggo: attached na pati.t.thitoti na nissito na laggo. As to the expression, not established, this means, not dependent, not attached. **** Nina 24323 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question Dear Stephen M, Welcome here. We have another Stephen, so I add M. op 17-08-2003 04:39 schreef alpha16draconis op alpha16draconis@a...: I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. Have you ever heard anything like this? N:A difficult question to answer, Stephen. It is as difficult to tell whether someone else's citta is kusala or akusala. Moreover, I have not developed jhana myself. Suan advised you to study the Visuddhimagga, and, if you intend to base your samatha meditation on the old Theravada tradition this is the thing to do. Knowing that your teacher is a pupil of Ledi Sayadaw, I would think you intend to do this. I have a Book of Ledi Sayadaw: the Manuals of Buddhism, and he is very good at Abhidhamma. I just studied his summary of the five Nyamas: a certain fixed order of dhammas. This is one of the meanings of dhamma. Whatever arises needs the appropriate conditions for its arising. Very important, it helps us to understand more that there is no self who can control phenomena. This brings me to your observations: you have some experience of after images. This has conditions. It can be the result of former practice of concentration, even in a former life. When you study the Visuddhimagga you will learn about the right conditions for jhana. Jhana means great purity of citta, being temporarily freed from sense impressions and the akusala which is bound up with them. You have to lead a life compatible with the development of jhana, you have to live practically like a monk no sense pleasures like good food, distractions, sports, T.V. , listening to music, soccer matches, etc. As Jon pointed out, you have to sever the impediments to begin with: a home, relatives, possessions, students/subordinate, responsibilities, travel, colleagues and family, illness, formal study of the teachings. You have to live completely away from sense pleasures. Panna which knows precisely when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta is indispensable. We can so easily be lured by lobha and take for kusala what is subtle clinging. But certainly your teacher has explained that to you. When we open our eyes and are looking at something, there are already countless cittas with lobha arising and falling away. We are clinging to seeing, we like to be alive and to see. We are clinging to visible object and to images we think about after seeing. All this has to be known and realized. S: I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma > when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught > several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice > concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to > insight meditation. N: When you study the Visuddhimagga you will see that jhana can only be a base for insight when it is fully developed, when you have masteries (vasis) of jhana: entering and emerging at any time, entering different stages of jhana one after the other, in upward and in downward order. The Visuddhimagga does not teach that after the development of just some amount of concentration it can be a base for insight. At the same time the Visuddhimagga states how difficult access concentration and jhana are: only one in the hundred or thousand can attain it. Panna has to know a great deal: the difference between applied thinking and sustained thinking, and the other cetasikas which are jhanafactors. One cannot use any meditation subject or change it. For example: breath: it is a very subtle rupa conditioned by citta, (it is not just blowing) and it appears at the nosetip or upperlip. One cannot change this subject thinking that the movement of the abdomen is just as suitable. That is to say, if one wants to base one's practice on the old Theravada tradition. If one has subtle desire for jhana or progress in the development, it is so easy to become deluded and to take for kusala what is akusala. But maybe your teacher has pointed out this fact? The effects of concentration with lobha, and that is wrong concentration, may look similar to the effects of right concentration. Thus one may take for jhana what is not the real jhana: temporary freedom from desire and all akusala. Again great panna is needed to detect it all. It means also that we have to be very careful. If we take the wrong concentration for the right one it can have harmful effects, it can even be dangerous. Thus one has to weigh things up: if one cannot attain fully developed jhana and attain higher stages, acquire masteries of jhana, is it then worth while to go all the way and try to concentrate? One has to know the purpose of one's development and nobody else can tell you whether what you are doing is right or wrong. Nina. 24324 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Icaro (and Mike) - In a message dated 8/18/03 10:10:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Respectfully butting in, Number One! > > Conventional truths - Sammuit-sacca - are defined as > concepts of forms, groups of things, places, time, > conceptualized images and so on. The main level of > Samma-ajivo is above this, at Paramattha-sacca. > Concepts of panatti, patipatti and pativeddha may be > considered as Lokiya ( vijjnana, cetasika and rupa). > > While Sammuit-Sacca is a conventional truth as > concept,it´s something that either makes known or is > known. > The Paramattha-Sacca IS ultimate truth as > "really" exist in reality. There are ultimates in mind > and matter: this includes the Octuple Noble Path and, > of course, samma-ajivo. > Corrections are welcome too !!! > > Metta, Ícaro > > =========================== Yes, conventional discourse via concepts is for communication, within one's own mind, and mind-to-mind, but I do not think that paramattha dhammas constitute the whole of what is actual. I may be mistaken, but the relations among paramattha dhamma are also actual, and there are two ways of cognizing them: by pa~n~na, which doesn't hold strongly and consistently for too many of us, and via concepts which mentally bundle together interrelated paramattha dhammas. Thus it seems to me that so long as pa~n~na is not our primary means of knowing, we very much need to depend on concepts in order to apprehend truth. This, of course, makes us vulnerable to all the ignorance and reification that our conceptualization is subject to, but such is the life of the ordinary person. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24325 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - I don't want to push this too far. I recognize that your position is probably way less extreme that it is striking me, and I KNOW that you are filled with good will. So please do not get the impression that I am "disapproving". I do, however, believe that there is danger involved in a position such as you are (moderately) expressing. It strikes me as kind of a Buddhist antinomianism. But perhaps it is best if we just agree to disagree on this one. (Your post follows below without further comment from me.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 11:06:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > >"is" is what he/she is at the moment. One disclaimer with respect to that > >latter point, though, is that aeons of volitional decisions have created > >character patterns and accumulations which give a predominant > >"set" to a sentient > >being. > > I think what is proximate has enormous influence regarding to how one turns > out in this life. In the jataka story of the bodhisatta Jotipala, the > Buddha was born into a family of wrong view. The commentaries said that, > even if the perfection of the Buddha was like a big bon-fire, radiant into > all the worlds, but in that life, it is like the fire being put out, only > left with hardly-glowing coal, just being born into a family with the wrong > views. Even when there was a sammasambuddha in that life, Jotipala didn't > want to go to listen to the Buddha (and in fact said things that had results > in his very last life) until his anagami friend made him realize how > important it was to go. > > I certainly wouldn't equate somebody like Saddam Hussein to Mother Theresa, > but what I am saying is that akusala is equivalent, and so is kusala. > > > >right livelihood. The last of these impacts all aspects of one's > >life, as we > >all know from first hand experience. The Buddha didn't set it off > >as one of a > >very few listed areas by accident. And the fact that truly > >vicious Ugandan > >dictator Idi Amin was, no doubt, kindly to some on some occasions > >and experienced > >some kusala cittas was quite insufficient to overcome the > >monstrous career > >choice that he made, that he fought to maintain, and that he > >executed with such > >terrible glee. It is not sufficient for an adequate evaluation > >for us to sit > >back in our armchairs and calmly note that there was no person > >there, but just > >a flow of cittas, some kusala and some not. That fails to reveal > >the full and > >urgent realiity, as I see it. > > I see it as being true (regarding to the flow of cittas). What else is > there but the realities now? Killing doesn't prevent one from developing > panna, and even the killers should be given kindness and compassion. Take > the example of the Buddha, without his great compassion, Angulimalla, the > killers of 999 people, wouldn't have been able to achieve arahatship in his > last life. We can realize that with the arising of kusala cittas, at that > moment, there is ignorance that masks all realities --- the person cannot > see that this is something not so nice. When we think about the defilements > of others, we should see what is arising within ourselves. Is it kusala or > akusala? Is it with panna or without? If we understand that this is mostly > aversion (or even mana and self righteousness), then we are prone to worry > less about other people's defilements. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24326 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:09pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Hi, Kom - > > I don't want to push this too far. I recognize that your > position is > probably way less extreme that it is striking me, and I KNOW that you are > filled with good will. So please do not get the impression that I am > "disapproving". I do, however, believe that there is danger > involved in a position such as > you are (moderately) expressing. It strikes me as kind of a Buddhist > antinomianism. But perhaps it is best if we just agree to > disagree on this one. (Your > post follows below without further comment from me.) > > With metta, > Howard > Thanks for letting me know! kom 24327 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: Howard:" Yes, conventional discourse via concepts is > for communication, within > one's own mind, and mind-to-mind, but I do not think > that paramattha dhammas > constitute the whole of what is actual. I may be > mistaken, but the relations > among paramattha dhamma are also actual, and there > are two ways of cognizing > them: by pa~n~na, which doesn't hold strongly and > consistently for too many of > us, and via concepts which mentally bundle together > interrelated paramattha > dhammas." ----------------------------------------------------- That´s I´ve said in a recent post to you, uplifted Upasaka! The main dificulty with the Paramattha Dhammas - and other concepts directly linked to insight, is the own word "concept". One ought to take hand on Conventional Truths - Sammuit-sacca - to elaborate his own experience about insight. But there´s a difference between trying to express insight with conventional words and concepts and derive them exclusively by such concepts. When good Mike try to understand samma-ajivo - right livelihood - as a matter only of Conventional truth, he perhaps forgets that a place doesn´t make a occupation, or a concept doesn´t arise a real thing by itself. At a practical side, when the Vinaya states that making and selling remedies has a veto for the Sangha it isn´t only declaring a real fact, but also a conventional concept AND a bridge towards Nibbana - a Ultimate Truth. That´s my opinion and corrections are really welcome. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: "Thus it seems to me that so long as pa~n~na > is not our primary means of > knowing, we very much need to depend on concepts in > order to apprehend truth. > This, of course, makes us vulnerable to all the > ignorance and reification that > our conceptualization is subject to, but such is the > life of the ordinary > person." ------------------------------------------------- Giving no shelter to superstitions, I dare to affirme that all truths in The Tipitaka are bridges towards Nibbana - for all persons! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24328 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: " Understood. > > Thanks again!" -------------------------------------------------- Don´t be sad, Number One! We all are on a conditioned world, and mistakes are inevitable! Mettaya, Ícaro :-) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24329 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:31pm Subject: 'to have no fear of the other world' Dear Group, Just a question about this sutta - why are 'ample food and drink' one of the four things that would cause one 'to have no fear of the other world'? metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Samyutta Nikaya (Sagathavagga) 1. Devatasamyutta 75 (5) Afraid <96> 232 "Why are so many people here afraid When the path has been taught with many bases? I ask you, O Gotama, broad of wisdom: On what would one take a stand To have no fear of the other world?" 233 "Having directed speech and mind rightly, Doing no evil deeds with the body, Dwelling at home with ample food and drink, Faithful, gentle, generous, amiable: When one stands on these four things, Standing firmly on the Dhamma One need not fear the other world." 24330 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 0:16pm Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - In a message dated 8/18/03 4:11:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > I do, however, believe that there is danger > >involved in a position such as > >you are (moderately) expressing. It strikes me as kind of a Buddhist > >antinomianism. But perhaps it is best if we just agree to > >disagree on this one. (Your > >post follows below without further comment from me.) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > Thanks for letting me know! > > kom > ======================= I'm writing in part to check that your closing line is a happily written one. I want you to know that I mean *absolutely* no offense, and that I have great respect for you. I just think we *may* be a bit too far apart on this issue to usefully pursue it much more. Perhaps I'm wrong in that. I certainly will continue with the thread if you think it useful to do so. I definitely DO understand what you are saying, and I think there is validity to it, but that it is incomplete. I see conventional truth, knowable via concept, as truth, but limited, and ultimate truth, knowable via pa~n~na, as truth that is perfect and direct. Reality involves both phenomena and interrelationships among them. Wisdom penetrates both of these directly, whereas concepts do it indirectly, by the creation of mental packages such as people, trees, etc. Wisdom, free of belief in beings, still, paradoxically, provides for love and compassion for beings, and ordinary conventional mentality does so by *believing* in truly existing beings. But a conceptual view that accepts nothing but paramattha dhammas, ignoring complexes of interrelated dhammas, and considers that people are totally non-existent fictions, not existing in any sense at all, is one which can, for some people, allow a view that no harm is ever done to any person regardless of what actions are taken - merely phenomena interacting with phenomena. Let me clarify what I mean here by an analogy: At one time in the United States, Africans were held in slavery and very badly treated. In order for people to tolerate this, there was propagated the view that these people were, in fact, subhuman, and thus didn't need to be treated as human beings. Do you see the analogy I am making? There is an important sense in which the statement that there is nothing but "phenomena interacting with phenomena" is true, but there is a sense in which it is misleading, and if that latter sense is not admitted as well, this can be morally dangerous. That is how I see the matter. In friendship, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24331 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Icaro - I like very much what you say in the following. With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 4:16:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > Dear Howard: > > Howard:" Yes, conventional discourse via concepts is > >for communication, within > >one's own mind, and mind-to-mind, but I do not think > >that paramattha dhammas > >constitute the whole of what is actual. I may be > >mistaken, but the relations > >among paramattha dhamma are also actual, and there > >are two ways of cognizing > >them: by pa~n~na, which doesn't hold strongly and > >consistently for too many of > >us, and via concepts which mentally bundle together > >interrelated paramattha > >dhammas." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > That´s I´ve said in a recent post to you, uplifted > Upasaka! > The main dificulty with the Paramattha Dhammas - > and other concepts directly linked to insight, is the > own word "concept". One ought to take hand on > Conventional Truths - Sammuit-sacca - to elaborate his > own experience about insight. > But there´s a difference between trying to > express insight with conventional words and concepts > and derive them exclusively by such concepts. When > good Mike try to understand samma-ajivo - right > livelihood - as a matter only of Conventional truth, > he perhaps forgets that a place doesn´t make a > occupation, or a concept doesn´t arise a real thing by > itself. > At a practical side, when the Vinaya states that > making and selling remedies has a veto for the Sangha > it isn´t only declaring a real fact, but also a > conventional concept AND a bridge towards Nibbana - a > Ultimate Truth. That´s my opinion and corrections are > really welcome. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: "Thus it seems to me that so long as pa~n~na > >is not our primary means of > >knowing, we very much need to depend on concepts in > >order to apprehend truth. > >This, of course, makes us vulnerable to all the > >ignorance and reification that > >our conceptualization is subject to, but such is the > >life of the ordinary > >person." > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Giving no shelter to superstitions, I dare to > affirme that all truths in The Tipitaka are bridges > towards Nibbana - for all persons! > > Metta, > > Ícaro > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24332 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Thanks Christine. The link to your post (how did you dig it up?) led me to discussions which cleared up alot of issued I had. This same inquiry has obviously been played out (at lenght) before (in 2001). Sarah made a great point responding to Robert Epstein; here are some comments from the posts for people to read: Rob: > We can't say that our purpose in life is to end suffering, and then > ignore people > in pain, because their brand of suffering is 'not the real kind'. If > Buddhists > don't work to insure human rights and end the *experience* of suffering in > all its > forms, we will wind up going very far down a very wrong path. This is the > kind of > thing that gives spiritual people a very bad reputation. Sarah: We don't have to ignore anyone in pain, but we know our limits and what we're able to do easily and contentedly. Like it said in the extract I quoted from the Vinaya recently, about monks helping the sick, one can help if it's within one's ability, if one knows the medicine and can do so with metta. ...For example, if we're sitting comfortably at home now, looking at messages and sipping tea, what's the use of thinking we should be helping refugees in Afghanistan? rob: > But I also certainly don't think that worrying about > something that we're in no position to fix is a proper use of one's > energy. That would also be nothing but an intellectual exercise. There can also be a lot of attachment, I find, to fixing problems and wrongs, usually with no understanding of realities or conditions. > Finally, the real suffering is caused by delusion and ignorance, > and on that I certainly agree. We're indeed fortunate to have a glimmer of the truth, even if it's forgotten most the time;-) ------------------------------ ... I would only add that I don't see any reason why we can't try to maintain this perspective while being available for the opportunities to end suffering, and to be committed to end suffering in all its forms, due to all the forms of ignorance that manifest in the world. ------------------------------ Thanks christine, sarah and everyone for your posts. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori, > > I empathise with your feelings :-) It ie hard not to have a great > deal of righteous anger about the injustices in the world. I have > come to realise that all anger is unwholesome. I still do what I can > in my immediate vicinity, with situations and people I have contact > with, to show compassion and metta. People on this list used to > (and still do) talk about anatta and tell me to have awareness of > what is arising through the sense doors in this very moment. All the > rest is just stories, they would say. [They may not have known it, > but this only used to increase my dosa and frustration.] So I > marched, and signed petitions, wrote letters and went to meetings - > and no doubt will still do that. As well, my job as a hospital > crisis worker shows me suffering and injustice on a daily basis. I > think often of kamma and it's results, of dukkha and the way that > leads to its cessation. > Once I asked on this List, as you are doing, what the Buddha might > have thought of human rights abuses and injustice in the world. I > received a very helpful post from member Dan Dalthorp which you may > like to read: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9513 > > Personally, I really doubt that any permanent change can happen on > this earth - greed, hate and delusion will always rule. The question > is How are we to Live? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > mike: > > > > >Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or > political > > >level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the > > >Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of > > >ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma > > >(correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is > > >no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing > > >and/or medicine, in my opinion. > > > > > > > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. > > > > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, > etc. > > > > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. > > > > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > > even attempt it. > > > > nori 24333 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:35pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:17 PM > I'm writing in part to check that your closing line is a happily > written one. I want you to know that I mean *absolutely* no > offense, and that I > have great respect for you. I just think we *may* be a bit too > far apart on this > issue to usefully pursue it much more. Perhaps I'm wrong in that. > I certainly > will continue with the thread if you think it useful to do so. I don't think you ever write anything to me that indicates disrespect, and I am not upset about this thread in anyway (not that I am not irritated by this little thing or that little thing, like this muscle pain that I have when I write, or the fact that we never seem to agree [haha, attachment in action]). In fact, I think the discussions may be helpful to both ourselves and others (either by saying or listening). > I definitely DO understand what you are saying, and I > think there is > validity to it, but that it is incomplete. I see conventional > truth, knowable > via concept, as truth, but limited, and ultimate truth, knowable > via pa~n~na, > as truth that is perfect and direct. Reality involves both phenomena and > interrelationships among them. Wisdom penetrates both of these > directly, whereas > concepts do it indirectly, by the creation of mental packages > such as people, > trees, etc. I think if we understand the differences between concepts and realities, then there is no problem. If we understand what we call a person is just an aggregate of realities, then there is no problem. However, I don't think we normally do, as the sakaya ditthi to take people as people have been accumulated for aeons, and hence, when we see ourselves being upset at something, it is almost always about concepts and not realities. You cannot be upset about a reality very long, as it doesn't last, but anger related to concepts stay as long as there are the mind that thinks about the concepts. Worse of all, the concepts more often than not are misguided (seeing dukha as sukha, seeing ugly as beatiful, see impermancence as permanence, see anatta as atta). > Wisdom, free of belief in beings, still, > paradoxically, provides for > love and compassion for beings, and ordinary conventional > mentality does so by > *believing* in truly existing beings. I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement. One with the most excellent wisdom of all, the Buddha, has the greatest compassion for all beings. Yet, he is not troubled by unwholesome realities of others: he taught that it only brings troubles and more sufferings, but he is not troubled by it, because (I think) it is ultimately, realities brought about by conditions. > But a conceptual view that accepts > nothing but paramattha dhammas, ignoring complexes of > interrelated dhammas, and > considers that people are totally non-existent fictions, not > existing in any > sense at all, is one which can, for some people, allow a view > that no harm is > ever done to any person regardless of what actions are taken - > merely phenomena > interacting with phenomena. It certainly can, but a person with such views doesn't understand causes and consequences. When there is dhatu hitting dhatu, there is not only rupa that is affected, but mentality, both bodily and mental pain, results from such action. Furthermore, such action, conditioned by voilition, will give results. A person who doesn't undertstand this would be compassionless regarding to other people. > Let me clarify what I mean here by an > analogy: At > one time in the United States, Africans were held in slavery and > very badly > treated. In order for people to tolerate this, there was > propagated the view that > these people were, in fact, subhuman, and thus didn't need to be > treated as > human beings. Do you see the analogy I am making? There is an > important sense > in which the statement that there is nothing but "phenomena > interacting with > phenomena" is true, but there is a sense in which it is > misleading, and if that > latter sense is not admitted as well, this can be morally > dangerous. That is > how I see the matter. > I can agree that such seeming "truths" can be objects of the consciousness resulting in unwise consideration and provokes defilements. However, I don't see that everyone who sees thus are people compassionless, but some are in fact the people most compassionate to others because they truly see why others are suffering, both in the more conventional, and most ultimate way (that all the kandhas are suffering). Compassion, aided by wisdom knowing things as they are, is the strongest compassion of all. kom 24334 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - I'm *very* glad that I pursued this a bit further. I agree with what you write here, differing only in emphasis, I think. We are much closer in view that I originally thought. This makes me pleased, but much moreso does our being friends make me pleased! (Even though it's just phenomena interacting with phenomena! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 8:37:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:17 PM > > > I'm writing in part to check that your closing line is a happily > >written one. I want you to know that I mean *absolutely* no > >offense, and that I > >have great respect for you. I just think we *may* be a bit too > >far apart on this > >issue to usefully pursue it much more. Perhaps I'm wrong in that. > >I certainly > >will continue with the thread if you think it useful to do so. > > I don't think you ever write anything to me that indicates disrespect, and I > am not upset about this thread in anyway (not that I am not irritated by > this little thing or that little thing, like this muscle pain that I have > when I write, or the fact that we never seem to agree [haha, attachment in > action]). In fact, I think the discussions may be helpful to both ourselves > and others (either by saying or listening). > > > > I definitely DO understand what you are saying, and I > >think there is > >validity to it, but that it is incomplete. I see conventional > >truth, knowable > >via concept, as truth, but limited, and ultimate truth, knowable > >via pa~n~na, > >as truth that is perfect and direct. Reality involves both phenomena and > >interrelationships among them. Wisdom penetrates both of these > >directly, whereas > >concepts do it indirectly, by the creation of mental packages > >such as people, > >trees, etc. > > I think if we understand the differences between concepts and realities, > then there is no problem. If we understand what we call a person is just an > aggregate of realities, then there is no problem. However, I don't think we > normally do, as the sakaya ditthi to take people as people have been > accumulated for aeons, and hence, when we see ourselves being upset at > something, it is almost always about concepts and not realities. You cannot > be upset about a reality very long, as it doesn't last, but anger related to > concepts stay as long as there are the mind that thinks about the concepts. > Worse of all, the concepts more often than not are misguided (seeing dukha > as sukha, seeing ugly as beatiful, see impermancence as permanence, see > anatta as atta). > > >Wisdom, free of belief in beings, still, > >paradoxically, provides for > >love and compassion for beings, and ordinary conventional > >mentality does so by > >*believing* in truly existing beings. > > I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement. One with the most > excellent wisdom of all, the Buddha, has the greatest compassion for all > beings. Yet, he is not troubled by unwholesome realities of others: he > taught that it only brings troubles and more sufferings, but he is not > troubled by it, because (I think) it is ultimately, realities brought about > by conditions. > > >But a conceptual view that accepts > >nothing but paramattha dhammas, ignoring complexes of > >interrelated dhammas, and > >considers that people are totally non-existent fictions, not > >existing in any > >sense at all, is one which can, for some people, allow a view > >that no harm is > >ever done to any person regardless of what actions are taken - > >merely phenomena > >interacting with phenomena. > > It certainly can, but a person with such views doesn't understand causes and > consequences. When there is dhatu hitting dhatu, there is not only rupa > that is affected, but mentality, both bodily and mental pain, results from > such action. Furthermore, such action, conditioned by voilition, will give > results. A person who doesn't undertstand this would be compassionless > regarding to other people. > > >Let me clarify what I mean here by an > >analogy: At > >one time in the United States, Africans were held in slavery and > >very badly > >treated. In order for people to tolerate this, there was > >propagated the view that > >these people were, in fact, subhuman, and thus didn't need to be > >treated as > >human beings. Do you see the analogy I am making? There is an > >important sense > >in which the statement that there is nothing but "phenomena > >interacting with > >phenomena" is true, but there is a sense in which it is > >misleading, and if that > >latter sense is not admitted as well, this can be morally > >dangerous. That is > >how I see the matter. > > > > I can agree that such seeming "truths" can be objects of the consciousness > resulting in unwise consideration and provokes defilements. However, I > don't see that everyone who sees thus are people compassionless, but some > are in fact the people most compassionate to others because they truly see > why others are suffering, both in the more conventional, and most ultimate > way (that all the kandhas are suffering). Compassion, aided by wisdom > knowing things as they are, is the strongest compassion of all. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24335 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, This is how I see it: Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is attachment. To live alone in solitude is to give up that attachment. And to give up that attachment, one is to live alone in solitude. Let me use the analogy of smoking. Addiction to nicoltine propels one keep smoking as a habit. Unless one sees that smoking is unhealthy to self and desires to live healthy, one would just keep smoking. Without actually refraining from smoking, addiction to nicoltine would never be eradicated. Now, refraining from smoking does not necessarily mean that one's addiction to nicoltine is completely eradicated. However, refraining from smoking is necessary to eradicate the addiction to nicoltine. One might think that "I will stop smoking when addiction to nicoltine is eradicated". How is addiction to nicoltine to be eradicated? One has to stop smoking. Ignorance, taints, and craving are like addiction to nicoltine. Smoking is like living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, enjoying various sensual pleasure, or commiting various unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. They are impure, inconducive to the eradication of ignorance, taints, and craving. Refraining from smoking is like living alone in solitude, secluding from various sensual pleasure, and refraining from unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 24336 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] right and wrong livelihood Dear Mike and Kom, op 18-08-2003 01:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Hi Kom, > Well--said! Especially: > >> Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is >> way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I >> do the same in regard to others. >> I have wrong livelihood whenever I >> commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I >> refrain. Other people are the same. No people - only realities flow on >> uninterrupted.> N: Yes, very good, it helps. It helps not to be upset when others (governments!) are doing things wrong, not to judge them. No people - only realities flow on > uninterrupted.> Nina. 24337 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, op 18-08-2003 03:07 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > As a matter of fact - at least at Theravada! - > only real Bhikkhus are real good buddhists! N: And real good buddhists are bhikkhus in a sense, as I mentioned before. All those who practise the eightfold Path, live the "brahman life". Nina. 24338 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Kom and Howard, op 18-08-2003 10:57 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > Oh Howard (and others), > > I forgot to mention one more thing. Do you know that the Bodhisatta, one > who is developing all the 30 perfections to become a samma-sambuddha, cannot > keep any of the precepts perfectly except for that related to lying? N: Remember the Harita Jataka, he fell in love with the queen and did not engage in lying about it. Nina. 24339 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Pali puzzles Dear Jim, Vis Subco, 4: the child without discrimination: asa~njaatabyavahaarabuddhi: haara is string, but: byava? tambaka.msaadimayo: tambaka: copper coloured. Thank you, Nina. 24340 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 18-08-2003 17:42 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > On one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin > says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too short > to be the object of pleasure. N: The point was: what arises and falls away is not attractive, how can it be? She said this also at other times. We see as pleasant what is not pleasant (asubha), one of the vipallaasas. Sarah discussed this with Frank who had a hard time with this one. M:I do understand the point (I think), but > doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa (actually, > even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of > sukkha-vedanaa? N: Yes. But this was not the point, see above. M: To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm > thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings while I > paint. N: Happy painting! Nina. 24341 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 'to have no fear of the other world' Dear Christine, The note given by B. Bodhi is: Spks interprets "rightly directed speech and mind" and "doing no evil deeds with the body" as the primary factors of purification, and takes the four qualities mentioned in pada d to be the "four things" on which one should stand. But it also suggests another interpretation: right bodily, verbal, and mental conduct are the first three things, and the four qualities in pada d taken together are the fourth. The first alternative sounds more plausible. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:31 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] 'to have no fear of the other world' > > > Dear Group, > > Just a question about this sutta - why are 'ample food and drink' one > of the four things that would cause one 'to have no fear of the other > world'? > > metta and peace > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > Samyutta Nikaya (Sagathavagga) 1. Devatasamyutta 75 (5) Afraid <96> > > 232 > "Why are so many people here afraid > When the path has been taught with many bases? > I ask you, O Gotama, broad of wisdom: > On what would one take a stand > To have no fear of the other world?" > > 233 > "Having directed speech and mind rightly, > Doing no evil deeds with the body, > Dwelling at home with ample food and drink, > Faithful, gentle, generous, amiable: > When one stands on these four things, > Standing firmly on the Dhamma > One need not fear the other world." > 24342 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:04am Subject: Another meaning of Dhamma?- 'correctness in welcome' Dear Nina, You encouraged me to post from another section from Buddhaghosa's Commentary (Comy) to the Parinibbana Sutta. The following comes from Ch V, 'On the Wonderful Qualities of Ananda’. I found this passage very interesting and wasn't familiar myself with this meaning of Dhamma as referring to 'correctness in welcome'. In Walshe’s translation of the Digha Nikaya, the part of the sutta it relates to is on p.265. In Sister Vajira and Francis Story’s transl (wheel) of the sutta, it is on p.75. We read about the joy bhukkhus, bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen alike experienced when they saw and heard Ananda. For the Pali, see Sv11, 585, 15-17 Comy: 15. “....’then the Blessed One addressed the monks’, broaching the topic of the Venerable Ananda’s qualities as if he were spreading out the great earth, expanding the sky....... .......’Wise’: skilful. ‘Learned’: expert in the aggregates (khandha), elements (dhaatu), and spheres (aayatana). 16. ‘The assembly of monks...for the purpose of seeing Ananda’....... ........’Delighted’ (attamanaa): with their own minds, with satisfied mind, thinking, “What we see [dasana.m] fits what we have heard.” ‘The DHAMMA’ [S:my caps, as in text: ‘Ananda talks Dhamma to them’] means correctness in welcome, saying things like; “Friend, I hope that you are well [lit. “Friend, I hope that is is bearable (of a disease)”]; I hope that you are all right; I hope that you are doing your work [kamma] with proper attention [yoniso manisikaare]; I hope you are fulfilling your duties towards your teachers and preceptors.” In this context he also makes the following distinction in the case of nuns, saying, “Do the sisters conduct themselves according to the eight important rules (a.t.tha garu-dhammaa)?” With male followers. He does not receive them by saying, “Welcome, disciple. Isn’t your head or body hurting at all? Are your sons and brothers well?” But he does thus: “Friends, how are you observing the three refuges and the five precepts? Are you observing the eight Uposathas a month? Do you fulfil the duty of supporting your mother and father? Do you take care of righteous ascetics and brahmins?” He said the same thing to female followers.” ..... S: The Buddha then makes 'a comparison of Ananda Thera with a universal monarch' and in the commentary we read examples about how such a monarch speaks and welcomes various people appropriately, such as kings, brahmins, householders and ascetics. Householders are welcomed by "My dears, are you not oppressed by the use of force or taxation from the court? Does the [rain] god rightfully supply showers? Is the harvest a good one?" Brahmins are welcomed with a queery about whether they are "receiving sacrificial fees or clothes or a brown cow?"! I hope this is helpful. I have many other passages marked and will try to introduce some of them when I have a chance. Metta, Sarah ====== 24343 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Mike (Suan, Icaro & All), --- "m. nease" wrote: > So there is right > livelihood > that is conceptual (referring both to conventional occupation and to > realities), right livelihood that is practical (pa.tipatti, a moment of > abstinence from wrong livelihood) and right livelihood that is > attainment > (pa.tivedha, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood arising > simultaneously with the other path-factors). ..... As I see it, whilst the Buddha used conventional language in the suttas and Vinaya, this is always pointing to paramattha dhammas as Kom and Icaro have indicated. There are no other ‘realities’. Concepts by nature don’t ‘exist’. So even if kamma, accumulations or right livelihood are used in a general or conventional manner, irrespective of our understanding, they always point to absolute realities. I think we sometimes use them as a kind of ‘shorthand’, but so easily misunderstand because of our accumulated wrong views. As the others indicated, right livelihood as a path factor only refers to a moment of abstaining from wrong livelihood when the citta (consciousness)is also accompanied by other mundane or supramundane path factors. You asked for some textual references and I’d be glad if you would look at these posts I wrote (mostly to Ken H and Andrew from memory, containing Abhidhamma references: from U.P. - Right Livelihood 17634, 17642, 17679, 18114 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17634 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17642 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17679 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18114 I’ll be glad to hear any corrections or comments as usual from you or anyone. Maybe Suan or Icaro have other references I haven’t given. Suan, I’m glad to see you around again with your comments. I think I never directly thanked you for your very helpful and detailed translation on the Sabba sutta (The All) and commentary which is saved in UP under ‘Sabba Sutta’.Let us know if you do any others. I’d like to see the one James mentioned recently that follows soon after the Sabba Sutta: ‘On Fire’ or ‘Burning’. Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be a hint;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hello Nori, and all, I'm glad you found my post helpful. I hope you had a happy time exploring the other posts that it led to. One thing I learned to do a couple of years ago, was to save any posts I considered extremely helpful in my favourites folder. Dan's was one of these. Many of the posts seen by the Moderators as helpful are saved under the relevant headings in Useful Posts. Click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and then click on the fourth link down "Useful Posts". I think you will also find Dan's post 9513 under the heading of Human Rights. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Thanks Christine. > > The link to your post (how did you dig it up?) led me to discussions > which cleared up alot of issued I had. This same inquiry has > obviously been played out (at lenght) before (in 2001). > > Sarah made a great point responding to Robert Epstein; here are some > comments from the posts for people to read: 24345 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > Thanks Christine. > > The link to your post (how did you dig it up?) led me to discussions > which cleared up alot of issued I had. This same inquiry has > obviously been played out (at lenght) before (in 2001). .... I’ll leave Chris to respond or not to her system for ‘digging up’ (I know she’s very organised for a start;-)) Just a couple more suggestions for you and any newcomers in this regard: 1. Most the archives are backed up on escribe (not the first X months - forget when it started. Also there have been some glitches when escribe broke down). It’s quite easy to do a search there if one thinks of the right word, such as ‘ethical’ or ‘livelihood’. Once a message is opened, you can follow the thread given at the end of it. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 2. RobM has the entire yahoo archives backed up for us and Jon will send anyone a disc (up to about 3mths ago)which can be searched. Personally, I find this too complicated and slower for searches, but I think RobM and Jon use it. 3. Some key posts (a biased selection) can be found at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If you go down to ‘compassion’, for example, or ‘human rights’, you can read the messages and follow the threads to other posts at the end of them. ..... Nori, you’ve read some of my old posts (thank you!) and I think it will be obvious that like Chris, I empathise with your questions which have a very familiar ring to them. As you’ll have possibly come across, a very typical early conversation I had with Khun Sujin would be along the lines of: ***** Sarah: When I’m sitting here relaxing and listening to the Dhamma, it’s difficult for me not to feel guilty that I’m not helping the Cambodian refugees [in the 70s]....... Sujin: Khun Sarah, you think too much. Now there is seeing and visible object and thinking to be known.... Sarah: But, but.... Sujin: Panna (right understanding) at the present moment is the greatest kusala (wholesomeness). ***** Sometime, I’ll try to find that particular tape and give an exact tapescript;-) ..... Nori:> ... I would only add that I don't see any reason why we can't try to > maintain this perspective while being available for the opportunities > to end suffering, and to be committed to end suffering in all its > forms, due to all the forms of ignorance that manifest in the world. > > ------------------------------ Sarah: Again, I understand. Again, I think it comes down to the present reality, otherwise it’s just thinking about noble causes and ideals. If someone is suffering around us, there can be momentary compassion and assistance. I realise now that so much of what I used to take for being good intentions and so on had very mixed mind-states. Only panna can know. One moment at a time, I think. It’s so easy to delude ourselves that if the ‘cause’ is good (and that includes reading/writing/listening to dhamma) that the mind-states must be good;-) I’d be glad if you looked at some of those other posts under compassion and if you have any further comments. No need to agree at all. Metta, Sarah ====== 24346 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Nori, and all, > > I'm glad you found my post helpful. I hope you had a happy time > exploring the other posts that it led to. One thing I learned to do > a couple of years ago, was to save any posts I considered extremely > helpful in my favourites folder. .... Just seen your post - efficient as I was saying. Pls keep sharing your favourites folder too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24347 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Christine: Chris:"One thing > I learned to do > a couple of years ago, was to save any posts I > considered extremely > helpful in my favourites folder. Dan's was one of > these." ---------------------------------------------------- Good Idea!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will be very useful: stocking some lessons of the Pali group and dsg posts (mainly about the Visuddhimagga)will do it!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24348 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:33am Subject: *** FOR SUKIN **** Dear Sukin (and Azita), Sorry to use dsg for this - Just to say I AM replying to your emails - I don't understand why you are not receiving them. If all else fails, please try me at the hospital: christine_forsyth@h... Best, Chris 24349 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Nina: > N: And real good buddhists are bhikkhus in a sense, > as I mentioned before. > All those who practise the eightfold Path, live the > "brahman life". --------------------------------------------------- Nina, could you mind me a question ? About laypersons: are there a "sangha" for them (brotherhoods, orders, guilds, lodges, etc)? I am thinking on an analogy with the Roman Catholic Church: there are monasteries, parishes, etc,for priests, monks and nuns, and orders like Santiago de Compostella´s, Carmel´s, the old Chivalry orders...that are formed by christian laypersons as members. Is the Theravada buddhism alike ? I´ve saw some photos of laypersons at Thailand, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, wearing a white robe or somewhat... is my analogy reasonable ? Metta, Ícaro > Nina. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24350 From: eaglenarius Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:37am Subject: Killing responsibility Hi All, When I was small (may be 5 years old), my hobby is killing insects. I didnot feel any guilty in that bad act. After I know Buddha dhamma, I don't do it anymore, but I feel afraid of the consequences. Do we have to bear the consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which did not understand this karmic law ? I appreciate very much, your advise. Thanks, Eaglenarius 24351 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin (& Azita), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sukin (and Azita), > > Sorry to use dsg for this - > Just to say I AM replying to your emails - .... Hope DSG is going to receive some mail from you too;-)That way, we all share your pearls of wisdom;-) Sukin, what are your latest reflections on the use of labels, terms, Pali and other aspects you raised when we were in Bkk. Would be great if you could introduce the topic in a simple way. Metta, Sarah ====== 24352 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Fala Belo !!!! -------------------------------------------------- eaglenarius: "When I was small (may be 5 years old), my hobby is > killing insects. I didnot > feel any guilty in that bad act. After I know Buddha > dhamma, I don't do it > anymore, but I feel afraid of the consequences. Do > we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we > were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ?" ----------------------------------------------------- One of the many mistakes about Kammic law is that it deals only with cause and effect: for example, you go to a camping at the Himalayas and, while sitting inside your tent, with the cold wind blowing outside, you ruthlessly kill a hundred louses at your clothes... and with this unmerciful act you manage to invoke the Kammic law! When you are back to civilization, at a sunny day, when you are peacefully walking on the streets, suddenly you are ran over by a hundred giant louses! Kamma law fulfilled !!! Not at all. Human acts can be Kusala or Akusala. If you think that human deals with reality are a matter of Citta and cetasika, nama and rupa, with no self at the guidance of the process, you will perceive that the so called "Kamma Law" is not cause-and-effect at direct way: it´s not a matter of Crime-and-Punishment, but better a question about what are the real components of our acts, our thoughts and how these state of affairs will develop ahead in our lives. That´s my humble opinion. Corrections are welcome. Metta, ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24353 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > On one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin > says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too > short > to be the object of pleasure. I do understand the point (I think), but > doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa > (actually, > even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of > sukkha-vedanaa? .... I understand your (good) point, I think. I forget the part of the discussion, but as I understand, just because rupa is the object of sukkha-vedanaa, doesn’t mean it has to be taken for pleasurable or ‘subha’ (with or without wrong view) by following akusala javana cittas in the sense door and mind door processes. The anagami or arahant still experiences rupa with sukkha-vedanaa, but no more sanna and citta vipallasa (perversions) marking it as being pleasurable or beautiful, because panna has been developed to such a degree to fully comprehend its true nature as being anicca, dukkha, anatta AND asubha. Of course the ditthi vipallasa with regard to taking asubha for subha was eradicated by the sotapanna. Does that answer it? I wrote before to Frank and others (note Victor, in this kind of context of writing to more than one person, I often use the third person too;-)): “As I understand, sometimes when we read about asubha and asubha sanna, it is referring to the parts of the body as in the cemetery contemplations, when the foulness of the body is used as object of samatha (asubha-kammatthana) as Frank discussed. However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the meaning is not confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at the computer and think it’s a nice colour or preferable to the colour of the wall, there is clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in the foul. Hence, sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is asubha (foul) for subha (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along with the attachment to sense pleasures .” ***** > To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm > thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings > while I > paint. ..... Very glad you’re enjoying them and painting while you listen to Dhamma sounds like very right livelihood to me;-) I think they’re quite a good set because Jon was semi-editing as he recorded (the quality may not be the best though as it was just his little hand tape-recorder). If anyone else would like a copy of these tapes (many topics relating to DSG discussions, but probably more comprehensible to those who have been around for sometime or are familiar with some of the Abhidhamma terms)- pls let me know off-list. These and other tapes going back for decades (mostly unedited) are now available either in cassette form or MP3. If anyone wishes to help with any editing, I can also pass that on too. Mike, some of the discussions Nina was referring to are in these posts: Vipallasa (Perversions, Distortions) 10928, 11471, 11514, 14861 Metta, Sarah ===== 24354 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor - In a message dated 8/18/03 10:22:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > This is how I see it: > Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a > house crowded with children and possession is attachment. > > To live alone in solitude is to give up that attachment. And to > give up that attachment, one is to live alone in solitude. > > Let me use the analogy of smoking. > > Addiction to nicoltine propels one keep smoking as a habit. > > Unless one sees that smoking is unhealthy to self and desires to > live healthy, one would just keep smoking. > > Without actually refraining from smoking, addiction to nicoltine > would never be eradicated. > > Now, refraining from smoking does not necessarily mean that one's > addiction to nicoltine is completely eradicated. > > However, refraining from smoking is necessary to eradicate the > addiction to nicoltine. One might think that "I will stop smoking > when addiction to nicoltine is eradicated". How is addiction to > nicoltine to be eradicated? One has to stop smoking. > > Ignorance, taints, and craving are like addiction to nicoltine. > > Smoking is like living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or > boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, > enjoying various sensual pleasure, or commiting various unwholesome > actions in body, speech, and mind. They are impure, inconducive to > the eradication of ignorance, taints, and craving. > > Refraining from smoking is like living alone in solitude, secluding > from various sensual pleasure, and refraining from unwholesome > actions in body, speech, and mind. > > Comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > ============================== It is true that removal of what one may crave or be attached to may frequently make detachment easier, but, for some people, it may actually worsen the craving. Ultimately, it is what happens in one's mind that is critical. Also, another perspective is that the roots of craving may lie dormant and unnoticed in the complete absence of what one craves, and what one doesn't see one doesn't deal with. There is one more point that might be made that also could give a balancing perspective, I think. The Buddha established *communities* of monks and nuns (not primarily recommending continual seclusion in the life of a hermit) with people living together to share in the holy life and to assist each other. The opportunities for attachments of various sorts certainly present themselves in such a set-up, but the countervailing gains are obviously sufficient for him to have established this lifestyle. Thus, my point is that social solitude, while often very useful, is not a sine qua non for successful practice. In fact, even married laypersons with children, at the Buddha's time and now, have been known to move beyond spiritual ground zero. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24355 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:06am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 7 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 7 7. What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states.(3) Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration. 7. kaanassaa lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanapada.t.thaanaaniiti ettha pana dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa, dhammaana.m sabhaavapa.ticchaadakamohandhakaaraviddha.msanarasaa, asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. ``samaahito yathaabhuuta.m jaanaati passatii''ti (a0 ni0 3.10.2) vacanato pana samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana.m. [pa~n~naapabhedakathaa] 24356 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Sarah, I've been looking forward to replies to this and thinking about it a lot. I had a bout of insomnia early this morning and came to a somewhat different conclusion (I think?)--I'll compare it with yours below. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:09 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan > --- "m. nease" wrote: > On one of the Kaeng Kajan > tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin > > says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too > > short > > to be the object of pleasure. I do understand the point (I think), but > > doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa > > (actually, > > even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of > > sukkha-vedanaa? > .... > ...as I understand, just because rupa is the object of > sukkha-vedanaa, doesn't mean it has to be taken for pleasurable or 'subha' > (with or without wrong view) by following akusala javana cittas in the > sense door and mind door processes. Do you mean that the (immediately) following javanas won't necessarily be attended by sukha-vedanaa? The (tentative) conclusion I came to this morning was this: I think Khun Sujin was not using 'object of pleasure' in the sense of aaramma.na, but in the sense of the concept that's formed by sa~n~naa after many, many processess (still an infinitessimally brief time) through however many doors. That is, the concept of visible form that I take as an 'object of pleasure'--a pretty girl, say--is not ruupaaramma.na.m--many countless of which have already arisen and fallen away before the 'girl' appears. So insight is not into 'the girl' but into the actual ruupaaramma.na.m. which is asubha because it is simply not pleasant (rather than 'unpleasant', 'ugly' or 'foul' in this context, I think)--it not only is too brief, it also doesn't make up enough of the visual field even to make up a significant part of the 'pretty girl' that thinking later takes as the 'object of pleasure'. It's just one (or one process of) citta and whatever vedanaa arose with it isn't necessarily relevant to the feeling that arises later with regard to the 'girl'. Is this more or less what you were saying above? > The anagami or arahant still > experiences rupa with sukkha-vedanaa, but no more sanna and citta > vipallasa (perversions) marking it as being pleasurable or beautiful, > because panna has been developed to such a degree to fully comprehend its > true nature as being anicca, dukkha, anatta AND asubha. Of course the > ditthi vipallasa with regard to taking asubha for subha was eradicated by > the sotapanna. Right--vipallaasa may arise with the ruupaaramma.na.m and with the concept, later (for us puthujjanas)--but these are different vipallaasas, I think. > Does that answer it? The jury's still out... > However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the meaning is not > confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at the computer and think > it's a nice colour or preferable to the colour of the wall, there is > clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in the foul. Hence, sanna > and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is asubha (foul) for subha > (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along with the attachment to > sense pleasures ." Right--again, though, the clinging to the plain visible object (color) is different from the later clinging to the concept. By the way, since one definition of 'subha' is 'beauty', I wonder if 'not beautiful' would be a better translation of 'asubha' in this context? > > To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm > > thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings > > while I paint. > ..... > Very glad you're enjoying them and painting while you listen to Dhamma > sounds like very right livelihood to me;-) Maybe so--useful, at least, to be reminded of 'asubha' while painting a beautiful naked girl...! > I think they're quite a good > set because Jon was semi-editing as he recorded (the quality may not be > the best though as it was just his little hand tape-recorder). The varying sound quality throughout and the changing backgrounds gives them a nice kind of 'cinema verite' quality. They could be much clearer but I like them this way. > Mike, some of the discussions Nina was referring to are in these posts: > > Vipallasa (Perversions, Distortions) > > 10928, 11471, 11514, 14861 Thanks Sarah, hope this didn't tax your creaky elbows too much. mike 24357 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike: Perhaps Sarah could do it better at replying your post, but - respectfully butting in as usual! - I could add that Sukha-Vedanaa - or better, Kaylka-Sukha-Vedanaa - has two remarkable aspects: one, to be arisen mainly by visual contact (Cakkhu Samphassaja Vedanaa) and two,to be associated with all consciousness, mainly with nama. So, regarding a ´Pretty Gírl´ (Subha or Asubha, Mrs. Kujin indirectly said that it could be irrelevant) has two imbricaded modes of expression: a more general Rupa mode and a more especified Nama mode: the two modes conjoined form the ´concept´of ´Pretty Girl´ at mind. The Asubha predicative forms only one more constitutive note (a logical note ?). Well, this remarks don´t impede you, Mike, to regard your ´Pretty Grrrrrl´...heheheh! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24358 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Howard, This is how I see it: Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is attachment. Unless one sees the disadvantage in living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, unless one sees the advantage of giving up that attachment, one would not give up living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. If one's goal is to realize the cessation of dukkha, then living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is to be given up to realize that goal. Why? Because living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession in and of itself is attachment, dukkha, not conducive to the cessation of dukkha. It is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. Now, I am not saying that everyone who follows the Buddha's teaching HAS to give up living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. It is a personal decision. Just like giving up smoking is a personal decision. To give up smoking, one has to want to give up smoking. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 24359 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Dear Mike: > > Mike: " Understood. > > > > Thanks again!" > -------------------------------------------------- > > Don´t be sad, Number One! Not at all, sir--I'm thoroughly enjoying all these threads! > We all are on a conditioned world, and mistakes > are inevitable! But of course! mike 24360 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Mike: Mike:" Not at all, sir--I'm thoroughly enjoying all these > threads!" ---------------------------------------------------- Glad to hear about you feeling better! I got insomnia sometimes! ------------------------------------------------- Mike: " But of course!" ------------------------------------------------- Épatant !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24361 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor - Similar to my recent conversations with Kom on another matter, I do see your point, I find it well made, but I disagree in extent/degree. Just a comment or two to follow below. In a message dated 8/19/03 9:57:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Because living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, > or in a house crowded with children and possession in and of itself > is attachment, dukkha, not conducive to the cessation of dukkha. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as you often point out, *all* conditioned dhammas are dukkha. ----------------------------------------------- It > > is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with > husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded > with children and possession. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: With respect, I consider this to be an overstatement. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24362 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question: To Jim Anderson Dear Jim, and all How are you? You wondered: "I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign (uggahanimitta)." We read the following at Section 57, Chapter 4 in Visuddhimaggo: "Athaanena sace taru.no samaadhi kenacideva asappaayakaara.nena nassati, upaahanaa aaruyha kattarada.n.dam gahetvaa tam .thaanam gantvaa nimittam aadaaya aagantvaa sukhanisinnena bhaavetabbam." "Afterwards, in case the immature concentration slipped due to a certain untoward cause, the ascetic, putting on the sandals, taking the staff, going to that place of kasi.na source object, repossessing the Learnt Image, and returning to the secluded place, should develop concentration by sitting comfortably." As you see, the kasi.na source object is very handy when the ascetic lost the Learnt Image. Visuddhimaggo instructed the ascetic to start with the source kasi.na object to obtain the Learnt Image, and to go back to the former when he dropped the latter by accident. Therefore, I conclude that the source kasi.na object has an indispensable role to play in acquiring the Learnt Image. Jim also asked: "Would it be possible to just start by imagining or visualizing a coloured disc and gradually increase the vividness of it to the same high degree?" When we imagine or visulize a coloured disc, it implies that we have previously seen an actual coloured disc at a distant past. When we attempt to acquire such a difficult thing as the Learnt Image, we need to have the best resources available at our disposal - resources internal and external. As such, the coloured disc from a distant past memory would become a poorer choice while the actual present coloured disc would serve as a fresh source kasi.na object. Therefore, unless the ascetic wanted to do things the hard way, he would rather kick a brick and look at the real coloured disc for a kasi.na source object. I hope that my answers meet your expectations. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Suan and all, I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign (uggahanimitta). Would it be possible to just start by imagining or visualizing a coloured disc and gradually increase the vividness of it to the same high degree? Best wishes, Jim 24363 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Howard, This is how I see it: It is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. With the smoking analogy, it is impossible to eradicate the addiction to nicotine if one does not refrain from smoking. However, it is not impossible to follow the Buddha's teaching living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. It is not impossible for layfollowers to observe the five precepts and refrain from unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 24364 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor - In a message dated 8/19/03 11:00:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > This is how I see it: > It is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with > husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded > with children and possession. With the smoking analogy, it is > impossible to eradicate the addiction to nicotine if one does not > refrain from smoking. > > However, it is not impossible to follow the Buddha's teaching living > with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house > crowded with children and possession. It is not impossible for > layfollowers to observe the five precepts and refrain from > unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. > > Comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > =========================== So, the difference lies, I think, in our views of how much is possible to accomplish in a householder's life. There's probably little point in arguing that difference further than we already have, I suspect. I think we do both agree that greater and faster progress is to be expected in the renunciate's life than the householder's life, and perhaps we can leave this topic at that point of agreement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24365 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > Vis Subco, 4: the child without discrimination: asa~njaatabyavahaarabuddhi: > haara is string, but: byava? 'byava' represents the prefixes 'vi' and 'ava' before 'haara', hence 'byavahaara' (or vyavahaara) and is equivalent to the more usual Pali 'vohaara' (business, trade, etc.). I don't know how best to translate the whole compound but on first impressions it seems to mean: 'a child whose intuitive sense (or understanding) of business matters is not yet born'. This reflects the child not yet knowing the value of money in the market place. 'byavahaara' has other meanings that could also apply, I think (see 'vohaara' in PED). > tambaka.msaadimayo: tambaka: copper coloured. I think 'tambaka.msaadi-' is just referring to the metals of copper (tamba), bronze (ka.msa), and so on. '-mayo' = consisting of. Jim 24366 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi TG, I think I owe you, as well as other "patriotic" citizens here elaboration as my statement/accusation was lacking much description. I was simply "pulling something out of the hat" to use as example. Since this is not a discussion group on politics I will not go into it any deeper. Lets me just say that my complaint is not against corportions in- themselves, but against specific ones/industries (ultimately they consist of only people); and regarding our country (USA): Lets just say that things are not what they seem to be (as painted by mass media); granted while things can be alot worse (here), things can (believe me) also be phenomenally better (for us and the world). If one knew the facts they would be horrified. regards, nori --------------------------- > > Hi nori > > Assuming you are talking about the USA, its nice that you are free to > practice dhamma in a country that is so corrupt, greedy, and manipulative. A lot of > those other "nice" countries would be forcing you what to think or throwing > you in jail or killing you for such views. Or you'd simply be poor and spending > all your time worried about survival, no time to practice dhamma. How nice > that you are able to express your ideas by means of corporations that are ... snip TG 24367 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Dear Howard and Victor: Howard: "So, the difference lies, I think, in our > views of how much is possible > to accomplish in a householder's life. There's > probably little point in > arguing that difference further than we already > have, I suspect." ---------------------------------------------------- At Buddha´s times, this controversy about the householder´s role and liberation of Dukkha involved also Mahavir teachings and his jainas. Jainism states that a man or a woman can follow all the teachings and practices till a certain point or degree, at which one ought to choice between the householder´s life and Monk´s: it you chose to be a householder, your progress on the path stops at once. If you choice to be a monk, you can continue on the path towards Kaivalya (Nibbana). The Buddhism has an entirelly different approach, perhaps due contacts with Mahavir´s jainas - both are preaching at Magadha at the same time. Even with the standpoint that only bhikkhus and bhikkhunis are good real buddhists, the householder´s role is much more flexible than at other schools - Anathapindhika is the best example. I must agree with Victor when he says that, if the liberation of Dukkha is quite impossible to a householder - or for anyone that´s not a member of Sangha! - following the precepts, practicing the vipassana and jhanas, etc, is not only possible but very rewarding for all people: not only for mental culture, but as a seal of the good intentions to walk at the Nibbana´s path! That´s my humble humble opinion. Corrections are really welcome! Metta, Ícaro I think we do both > agree that greater and faster progress is to be > expected in the renunciate's > life than the householder's life, and perhaps we can > leave this topic at that > point of agreement. > > With metta, > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24368 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A Series no 13. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:09:01 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A Series no 13. Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A Series no 13. 120. metta.m raahulaati kasmaa aarabhi? taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m. As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³such nature² (of the arahat). he.t.thaa hi taadibhaavalakkha.na.m dassita.m, Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, na ca sakkaa aha.m taadii homiiti akaara.naa bhavitu.m, and it is not possible to develop ³I am of such nature² when there is no condition for it; napi ``aha.m uccaakulappasuto bahussuto laabhii, nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy, ma.m raajaraajamahaamattaadayo bhajanti, aha.m taadii homii''ti the king , his ministers and so on associate with me², imehi kaara.nehi koci taadii naama hoti, someone cannot call himself ³of such nature² because of these reasons . mettaadibhaavanaaya pana hotiiti However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m ima.m desana.m aarabhi. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the reason for being of ³such nature². English: As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³I am of such nature² (of the arahat). Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, and is not possible to develop ³I am of such nature² when there is no condition for it; nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy, the king, his ministers and so on associate with me², someone cannot call himself ³of such nature² because of these reasons. However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the reason for being of ³such nature². **** Nina. 24369 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard, I followed with interest your exchange with Kom. I learn from it, because what you say is also what Lodewijk often says: just nama and rupa, just visible object, that causes irritation. But it did not irritate you, I know. He added that I use this too easily and that one should explain it in a whole context. At breakfast we were listening to the parts of the body. The Buddha explained gradually so that people would cling less to the whole body. When you cut a nail and the nail lies about you do not think, this is mine. When the nail is on, and when there is something wrong with it: my nail, my pain. We go one step further: the body consists of rupas. Explaining about conditions for nama and rupa helps us to see that they are empty phenomena rolling on. Lodewijk remarked that it is difficult to understand when one still has doubts. Only the sotapanna has eradicated doubt. But we have strange examples in our life that remind us of conditions: how things work out unexpectantly, wihtout us doing anything about it. Also: it depends on the moment that someone else hears or reads about nama and rupa. Email is difficult, we do not know someone else's disposition. How do we know whether he is ready for it? As Sarah quoted from the Dispeller, Co to the Book of Analysis: impermanence is more obvious, but anatta is not obvious, hard to see. The Dhamma is subtle, difficult to understand. Thank you and also Kom for your instructive posts. I hope others (Mike, Sarah) can help me how to explain better about: "just nama and rupa, just visible object!". I mean, how do explain it to Lodewijk. Nina. op 18-08-2003 20:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I do not think that paramattha dhammas > constitute the whole of what is actual. 24370 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg]wrong livelihood Dear Ken, Thank you for sharing your life story. It is not easy to change professions, but I am happy you are well settled now. Nina. op 18-08-2003 00:00 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > Actually, the profession I was trained in was law. As a > young man, I threw in a secure job and persuaded my wife > we should move to the country -- to live the good life. > After thirteen years, in 1993, we were happy to move back > to the coast. 24371 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hello, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > ----------------------------------------------- > It > > > is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with > > husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded > > with children and possession. > > If you count the number of people with attainment after they have heard the Buddha's teachings, and by default they *must* realize the the cessation of dukkha (to a certain extent), there are actually more householders, devas, and such more than those who are not (like bikkhus, or householder with no family). The list of the lay disciples of the Buddha goes on and on, Anathapintika, Visakha, Sakka - chief of deva, the Buddha's father, the Buddha's mother, etc... I think a life of a bikkhus helps in achieving purity in multiple different ways, but not being a bikkhus (or those who live isolated) doesn't prevent one from the realization of the noble truths. kom 24372 From: suzakico Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing - Nina 2-a As I do not read all posts here, it took some time to see if there was any response to the original post: Thank you Nina 2-a. In any case, I added few brief comments toward the end in relation to the Nina's response. Thanks Howard and Icaro for comments. - Kio > > Howard:" When conditions such > > >as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are > > >sufficient to allow pa~n~na to > > >arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what > > >is what without any forced > > >attempts at conceptual characterization." > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > Could you abrogate the labour of mind ( only one > > of the six senses) on understanding reality ? Is > > insight only non-conceptual characterization ? Without > > the help of mind there could´t be even the notion of > > insight ! > ================================== > You are correct that my perspective is phenomenological. But that does > not mean that I do not make a subject-object distinction or a nama- rupa > distinction. I simply think that an extreme of reification at either pole misses > the middle way. The content of the Bahiya Sutta is relevant to what I'm saying > here. > I do certainly agree that intellectual/conceptual understanding of the > Dhamma is very important in a supportive role, and can be usefully engaged in > during "contemplations". This level of investigation and the resulting > conceptual understanding obtained provide a foundation that is very important to the > practice, perhaps essential. I engage in discursive, conceptual contemplation > and study of the Dhamma much of the time, in fact. But during vipassana > bhavana, whether in formal "meditation mode" or engaged in moment- to-moment > mindfulness and investigation of dhammas, I think that thinking gets in the way and > hinders the arising of enlightenment factors. > * Related to the points above, here are the previous notes from Nina to which I added my comments in between: Nina: As I see it, it is more complicated then that. When there is any idea of observer there may be a very subtle, hidden self feeling, an idea of I observe. Kio: The idea of observer implies the existence of the self. Nina: It is so human and so common; of course, because we have not eradicated the wrong view of self. Kio: Why do you have this discursive thought? More of these thoughts means more of binding. As Howard pointed above, thinking (like this) gets in the way and hinders the arising of enlightenment factors. Nina: Therefore, it is our task to detect it when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect this. Kio: Why do you convince yourself that this is 'very difficult'? Again, you carry more burden everytime you convince yourself that this is very difficult. I do not see any use of doing that at all. Nina: As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even attachment. Kio: Hope you are not studying to understand this. Again, this is the point of practice. As found in the case of Bahiya, there is no magic to it (for those who 'understand.'). It is just that discursive thoughts may get into the way. Adding more thoughts to this discursive thought is not what was explained by the Buddha to Bahir. * Nina, I am hopeful that you do not mind me commenting like this. As much as we are here for investigation and practice of dhamma for our path, as you mentioned, we should all chip in ideas, and that is what I am trying here. If things get clarified, I believe that would be everyone's benefit. Good day, Kio 24373 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Nina - Thank you for writing, Nina. In a message dated 8/19/03 1:27:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I followed with interest your exchange with Kom. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm glad, as I know Kom is. ------------------------------------------- > I learn from it, because what you say is also what Lodewijk often says: > just > nama and rupa, just visible object, that causes irritation. But it did not > irritate you, I know. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's correct. It does not irritate me. I agree that there is just nama and rupa, though I would more likely describe it as "just patterned streams of complexly interrelated namarupic events," but, of course, I do tend to get too wordy! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- He added that I use this too easily and that one> > should explain it in a whole context. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you do a wonderful job of explaining, particularly in your books. I do agree with Lodewijk, to whom I send a greeting BTW :-), that there is a danger in misunderstanding the consequences of the ultimate view - in particular I think there is the danger of the error of antinomianism - and so, great care does need to be taken in explanation. BTW, I'm in the process of reading your book Buddhism in Daily Life, and really enjoying it. I have particularly enjoyed Chapter 10 (Life) which brings a very positive and encouraging message to my ears. ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24374 From: Eddie Lou Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding I am surprised no one takes up on this very interesting insight to our real "Final" Buddhist destination-NIBBANA. Reproduced in all here for all's benefits. All I know is the "cause & effect" that permeates all 31 levels of existences, ceases altogether in NIBBANA, in other words it shows Buddha's teaching encompasses everything and is in tune with realities so far for me. So Great it is! Theravad or Mahayana does not matter, they all come from the same great source - Buddhism. Now - why such game as - Dhamma ? I still have not got the answer. I also agree with Kio that we can get too involved with certain issues as quoted from hers: >Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used >appropriately as a guide, >the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may become >a burden. Humbly, Metta, Eddie Lou To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: "suzakico" | This is spam | Add to Address Book Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:29:18 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding This post may point not just what sutta I like but how I interpret the words with my background. I wrote this in response to one practitioner's request about my dhamma experience and found as a part of my file: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nibbana.html Nibbana – Total Unbinding Patrick, Let me give you another try (By the way I sent another post prior to this, but it was rejected by the gatekeeper. So, this time, I use the sutta from Udana, called Nibbana Sutta: Total Unbinding. Hopefully, he does not reject this one.) In this attempt, I jump straight into the characterization of nibbana and see if we get what it points. To me, this is the game why we are here. It could be that my experience has `something' to do with that unbinding state. (Well…. Just be careful not to believe what I say but use your judgment!) Anyway, here we go. My comments are in the parenthesis ((…)) and toward the end: "… the Blessed One…exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).This, just this, is the end of stress. " (Udana VIII.1) ((This dimension as referred to above indicates the state of total unbinding. The characterization is neither this nor that, etc. etc. Also, not coming, going, staying, passing away, etc. Some may call it extinction, but I would like to call this as, it-is-as-it-is state without judgment. What this points is that you need to have this state of release, which is unbinding, i.e., nibbana. So, don' t even think about cittas, rupas, etc. when we are to attain this dimension/state. In fact, it is not attaining, as attaining refers some effort. It has to be effortless effort. That is that dimension!)) "Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing. " (Udana VIII.2) ((First; "It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen." In other words, everything is changing. In such a situation, the truth is not easy to see – if we were to see it. It is like chasing to see something while the object and subject is moving. Next; "Craving is pierced in one who knows;" The act of knowing include the craving as in karma/sankhara. It is like, whatever in the past we have experienced has a way of putting the color to the scene we look at – so to speak. So, pierce through this with wisdom that arises at that dimension/state mentioned before. Then; " For one who sees, there is nothing." But the one who sees, pierced through defilements, there is nothing. It is as it is. Nothing hinders. How do we see it? It is the practice of mindfulness or vipassana – seeing the reality as it is.)) "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- uunmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricatted, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned." (Udana VIII.3) ((Unborn, unbecome, unmade….are the basis to see the born, become, made as it were, ….without that state realized, you cannot truly see what is going on with the eye of dhamma. So, again, here is catch-22, a paradoxical position that requires for each of us to work on.)) "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress." (Udana VIII.4) ((This phrase refers to that "nothing" in VIII.2. Everything is depending on everything else. Impermanence is to be seen as it is. The one who sees is the one who is independent as the Buddha calls it here. Mindfulness may be seen as a state of independence. Then, what is described above indicates the detachment, which needs strong determination, you call it Viriya here, to realize what is. At least that was the case for me. This may be compared to a mind similar to a mirror reflecting things on it without the mirror changing itself, or surface waves not affecting water in the deep ocean, or line drawn on water. Any of these analogies (and there are hundreds more) indicates the unaffected/independent state. In such a state, there is no desire, no coming or going, which means letting go totally to the point of finally sensing the vibration of the universe as pointed in my poem. How? Let go, let go, let go – totally, totally, totally. The practice of vipassana helped me to have this discipline – with the practice of Viriya. In practicing vipassana meditation, you sit a long time. Then, some kind of desire pops up. You cannot sit a long time unless you find a way to deal with it. This may be not so easy. But can be done with Viriya. There is more to it. But in essence, if you can totally let go of your emotion and pretty much everything else of being a human (so this is similar to dying, thus extinction!), you may have arrived there! Then, there is no coming, going, passing away, arising.. no here or there kind of consciousness, etc. any more…, and then there is nobody to suffer– annata. "This, just this, is the end of stress." Bingo!)) Just a few more cautionary remarks: The most important: If you seek for it, you will not find it. This is the golden rule. So, we need to seek without seeking. Have you try that? If you have not, 1) you need to become familiar with paradox if you were to learn this stuff, and 2) practice it! Actually it may be said as `unlearning' as if to don off unneeded and rediscover what you originally had – the unborn, unbecome, etc. (which is never lost from the beginningless beginning). Tied to this, the other point is that if you think you have it, you may not have it, or you have already lost it. This is because such thought can create another binding condition. So, you need to keep letting go. This is a slippery stuff especially at the beginning (which could be many, many years for some). Another point: do not believe what anyone says at the face value, especially from the one who thinks he is knowledgeable. (Remember the story of Ananda?) One has to be able to walk the talk. So, be critical. Again, do not believe what I say. By the way, one thing I wonder is that if there has been any discussion like this in this group. It appears that there are authorities of Theravada here, but sometimes, as you took an initiative, you need to stick your neck out and ask (- hopefully having done the homework). But, this is my humble opinion. Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used appropriately as a guide, the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may become a burden. This is my intuitive sense and the point I made about Ananda. Perhaps any `knowledgeable' person can comment on this for our benefit. * FYI, the above Nibbana Sutta is taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-01.html Good day, good life, and good luck on your journey! Kio 24375 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: Howard: " I > agree that there is just > nama and rupa, though I would more likely describe > it as "just patterned streams > of complexly interrelated namarupic events," but, of > course, I do tend to get > too wordy! ;-))" ------------------------------------------------ Dear Uplifted Upasaka! That streams of namarupic events include the Kammic ones: can be raised at a start point and extincted by a definite way or path. You can add constitutive or logical notes at will in such processes, but they are what they are: a manifold, a set of Nama and Rupa. Make yourself at will with your "wordy" speech, uprighted Upasaka! ----------------------------------------------------- Howard:" I think you do a wonderful job of explaining, > particularly in your > books. I do agree with Lodewijk, to whom I send a > greeting BTW :-), that there is > a danger in misunderstanding the consequences of the > ultimate view - in > particular I think there is the danger of the error > of antinomianism - and so, > great care does need to be taken in explanation." ----------------------------------------------------- The Ultimate View - one can call it the Paramattha Dhammas - share with the Conventional truths (sammuit-sacca) its mundane aspects, mainly rupa. It has the advantage to raise understanding about abstract issues like insight, but at the other side reveals that the Ultimate of ultimates - Nibbana - are really an ahetu Dhamma (Dhammasangani). So, you can find a opposite framework even at the Paramathas: Lokiya versus Nibbana. Mundane aspects versus non-mundane one. That makes explanations about truth very hard at the ultimate side, even at the symbolical range. "Cavendo Tutus" - in latin, "with care one doesn´t get problems". ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: " I have > particularly enjoyed Chapter 10 (Life) which brings > a very positive and encouraging > message to my ears." ------------------------------------------------------ Upholdered Upasaka, that´s no intention of mine to make a halcyon and holly-poppied testimony, but at Nina´s post and other´s at this group (Jon, Sarah,Chris, you uphilled upasaka, etc) the buddhist enthusiast (like me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)will find the best of Theravada Exegesis!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24376 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Eddie: Eddie: " Now - why such game as - Dhamma ? I still have not > got the answer. > I also agree with Kio that we can get too involved > with certain issues as quoted from hers: > >Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used > >appropriately as a guide, > >the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may > become >a burden." ------------------------------------------------- Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion at these question about Dhamma. First, you must get a clear definition about "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic books: my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the main concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be afraid to stuff your precious head with all the buddhistic "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so on: they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail or mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! Nina´s exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the excelent commentaries of all members will really make growth your understanding on these matters. A burden ? Not at all !!!! Metta, Ícaro > Humbly, Metta, > Eddie Lou > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > From: "suzakico" | This is spam > | > Add to Address Book > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:29:18 -0000 > Subject: [dsg] Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding > > This post may point not just what sutta I like but > how > I interpret > the words with my background. I wrote this in > response to one > practitioner's request about my dhamma experience > and > found as a > part of my file: > http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nibbana.html > > Nibbana – Total Unbinding > Patrick, > > Let me give you another try (By the way I sent > another > post prior to > this, but it was rejected by the gatekeeper. So, > this > time, I use > the sutta from Udana, called Nibbana Sutta: Total > Unbinding. > Hopefully, he does not reject this one.) In this > attempt, I jump > straight into the characterization of nibbana and > see > if we get what > it points. To me, this is the game why we are here. > > It could be > that my experience has `something' to do with that > unbinding > state. (Well…. Just be careful not to believe what > I > say but use > your judgment!) Anyway, here we go. My comments > are > in the > parenthesis ((…)) and toward the end: > "… the Blessed One…exclaimed: > There is that dimension where there is neither > earth, > nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude > of > space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor > dimension of > nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor > non-perception; > neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor > moon. And > there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, > nor > staying; > neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, > unevolving, without > support (mental object).This, just this, is the end > of > stress. " > (Udana VIII.1) > > ((This dimension as referred to above indicates the > state of total > unbinding. The characterization is neither this nor > that, etc. > etc. Also, not coming, going, staying, passing > away, > etc. Some may > call it extinction, but I would like to call this > as, > it-is-as-it-is > state without judgment. What this points is that > you > need to have > this state of release, which is unbinding, i.e., > nibbana. So, don' > t even think about cittas, rupas, etc. when we are > to > attain this > dimension/state. In fact, it is not attaining, as > attaining refers > some effort. It has to be effortless effort. That > is > that > dimension!)) > "Then, on realizing the significance of that, the > Blessed One on > that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the > unaffected, > for the truth isn't easily seen. > Craving is pierced > in one who knows; > For one who sees, > there is nothing. " > (Udana VIII.2) > > ((First; "It's hard to see the unaffected, for the > truth isn't > easily seen." In other words, everything is > changing. > In such a > situation, the truth is not easy to see – if we were > to see it. It > is like chasing to see something while the object > and > subject is > moving. Next; "Craving is pierced in one who > knows;" > The act of > knowing include the craving as in karma/sankhara. > It > is like, > whatever in the past we have experienced has a way > of > putting the > color to the scene we look at – so to speak. So, > pierce through > this with wisdom that arises at that dimension/state > mentioned > before. Then; " For one who sees, there is > nothing." > But the one > who sees, pierced through defilements, there is > nothing. It is as > it is. Nothing hinders. How do we see it? It is > the > practice of > mindfulness or vipassana – seeing the reality as it > is.)) > > > "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- uunmade > -- > unfabricated. > If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade > -- > > unfabricatted, there would not be the case that > emancipation from > the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be > discerned. But > precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- > unmade -- > unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become > -- > made -- > fabricated is discerned." > > (Udana VIII.3) > > ((Unborn, unbecome, unmade….are the basis to see the > born, become, > made as it were, ….without that state realized, you > cannot truly > see what is going on with the eye of dhamma. So, > again, here is > catch-22, a paradoxical position that requires for > each of us to > work on.)) > > "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is > independent has no > wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. > There being calm, > there is no desire. There being no desire, there is > no > === message truncated === ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24377 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Icaro, Some of your posts (like those of others) may be technically a little above my head - but who cares!! I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane morning at 5.30 a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your friendliness, energy and warm enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good morning also to Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24378 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/19/03 3:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Icaro, > > Some of your posts (like those of others) may be technically a little > above my head - but who cares!! > I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane morning at 5.30 > a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your friendliness, energy and warm > enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good morning also to > Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ======================= I quite agree!! With uplifted metta ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24379 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Chris: Chris: " Hello Icaro, > > Some of your posts (like those of others) may be > technically a little > above my head - but who cares!! > I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane > morning at 5.30 > a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your friendliness, > energy and warm > enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good > morning also to > Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) > > metta and peace, > Christine" ----------------------------------------------------- Heheheh... Thanks ! < smile too!> Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24380 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:33pm Subject: Re: Killing responsibility Hello Eaglenarius, Please don't worry and feel bad about things you did when you were a tiny child. Every single one of us, in hundreds and thousands of lives, has done cruel things to insects, animals, birds, fishes and people, that we would be ashamed of today if somehow we could remember them. Try not to think too much about them. You don't do those thoughtless and hurtful things now, and you can teach any child or adult you know to have metta and karuna towards all beings. The past is gone and cannot be altered. But you can do lots of kind, generous and gentle things right now, today. One of the people who has had the most effect of me is a person who doesn't argue or try to convince, they just live their life in as non-harming, gentle and ethical a way as possible. Your whole life can become a Silent Witness to the teachings of the Buddha. Though none of us can do anything about the past - the future is in our hands from this point on. The Buddha said about whether one is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion: "If anyone says that a man must reap according to his deeds, in that case there is no religious life, nor is an opportunity afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow. But is anyone says that what a man reaps accords with his deeds, in that case there is a religious life, and opportunity is afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow." Although it is stated in the Dhammapada that "not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor entering a mountain cave is found that place on earth, where abiding one may escape from (the consequences of) an evil deed: yet one is not bound to pay all the past arrears of one's Kamma. If such were the case, emancipation would be an impossibility. Eternal recurrence would be the unfortunate result." from Narada Maha Thera "The Buddhist Doctrine of Kamma and Rebirth" http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/5787/kammaandrebirth1.ht ml Kamma is very complicated, there is not a one on one consequence for bad actions of thought word and deed. Not all bad actions result in a bad thing happening to you or a bad rebirth - sometimes they just add on to accumulations and make it more likely that certain characater traits and tendencies will be strengthened. (Which is a bit of a worry for me, as I am a great chatterer, I love talking to people and people seem to like talking to me - which just about always leads to frivolous speech that easily could move over into plain gossip. And more harm can be done with the tongue than with any other weapons. There are so many cautions about wrong speech, and categories of wrong speech, in the scriptures - just as many as for physically harming other beings.) May you have a friendly, kind, peaceful and gentle day metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" wrote: > Hi All, > > When I was small (may be 5 years old), my hobby is killing insects. I didnot > feel any guilty in that bad act. After I know Buddha dhamma, I don't do it > anymore, but I feel afraid of the consequences. Do we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ? > > I appreciate very much, your advise. > > Thanks, > Eaglenarius 24381 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: ;-) Metta, Ícaro ----------------------------------------------------- > > Hello Icaro, > > > > Some of your posts (like those of others) may be > technically a little > > above my head - but who cares!! > > I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane > morning at 5.30 > > a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your > friendliness, energy and warm > > enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good > morning also to > > Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > ======================= > I quite agree!! > > With uplifted metta ;-), > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24382 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another meaning of Dhamma?- 'correctness in welcome' Dear Sarah, This is so much about daily life, I like it. In fact I shall order the book, I got a card from PTS. I got the taste. I have the co in Pali but since I work on many texts, it saves time and is easier to have the English next to it. Thank you, Nina. op 19-08-2003 10:04 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > ..... > S: The Buddha then makes 'a comparison of Ananda Thera with a universal > monarch' and in the commentary we read examples about how such a monarch > speaks and welcomes various people appropriately, such as kings, brahmins, > householders and ascetics. Householders are welcomed by "My dears, are you > not oppressed by the use of force or taxation from the court? Does the > [rain] god rightfully supply showers? Is the harvest a good one?" > Brahmins are welcomed with a queery about whether they are "receiving > sacrificial fees or clothes or a brown cow?"! > 24383 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Dear Dhamma friends: I joined this group some time back and have been following the discussions with considerable interest and awe. Although many of the things being said go over my head, it strengthens my resolve to carry on the study of Dhamma further. Opportunity to hear (and learn) Dhamma is one of the most precious things and I am sincerely grateful to all the members of this group for being given this opportunity. My name is Manu Wadhwani. I have been living in Laos for a long time. I started meditation and reading about Dhamma about 6 years ago. My study of Dhamma, like all new comers I would guess, is reading all that I can lay my hands on. I am not sure if that is the best approach. Is there any prescribed way of studying Dhamma? It would be very interesting to hear from the members of this group about how they have structured their study because all seem so well organized, quoting and pointing to the references on any given topic immediately. Since many of the members are familiar with Thailand, can anyone suggest where I can buy English translations of the Canon in Bangkok or Chiang Mai? Respectfully, Manu Wadhwani 24384 From: eaglenarius Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Killing responsibility Hi Christine, Thanks for your opinion. I'll browse your recommended website. -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:33 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Killing responsibility Hello Eaglenarius, Please don't worry and feel bad about things you did when you were a tiny child. Every single one of us, in hundreds and thousands of lives, has done cruel things to insects, animals, birds, fishes and people, that we would be ashamed of today if somehow we could remember them. Try not to think too much about them. You don't do those thoughtless and hurtful things now, and you can teach any child or adult you know to have metta and karuna towards all beings. The past is gone and cannot be altered. But you can do lots of kind, generous and gentle things right now, today. One of the people who has had the most effect of me is a person who doesn't argue or try to convince, they just live their life in as non-harming, gentle and ethical a way as possible. Your whole life can become a Silent Witness to the teachings of the Buddha. Though none of us can do anything about the past - the future is in our hands from this point on. The Buddha said about whether one is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion: "If anyone says that a man must reap according to his deeds, in that case there is no religious life, nor is an opportunity afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow. But is anyone says that what a man reaps accords with his deeds, in that case there is a religious life, and opportunity is afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow." Although it is stated in the Dhammapada that "not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor entering a mountain cave is found that place on earth, where abiding one may escape from (the consequences of) an evil deed: yet one is not bound to pay all the past arrears of one's Kamma. If such were the case, emancipation would be an impossibility. Eternal recurrence would be the unfortunate result." from Narada Maha Thera "The Buddhist Doctrine of Kamma and Rebirth" http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/5787/kammaandrebirth1.ht ml -------------------- EAGLE : Thanks for all. I'll read your recommended website. ------------------- Kamma is very complicated, there is not a one on one consequence for bad actions of thought word and deed. Not all bad actions result in a bad thing happening to you or a bad rebirth - sometimes they just add on to accumulations and make it more likely that certain characater traits and tendencies will be strengthened. (Which is a bit of a worry for me, as I am a great chatterer, I love talking to people and people seem to like talking to me - which just about always leads to frivolous speech that easily could move over into plain gossip. And more harm can be done with the tongue than with any other weapons. There are so many cautions about wrong speech, and categories of wrong speech, in the scriptures - just as many as for physically harming other beings.) ---------------------- EAGLE : don't worrry Christine. My wife speaking type is just like your selfdescription, but I like it very much that I can save the speaking energy. I usually depend on her in explaining something to somebody (especially long explanation), and she makes an active conversation, rather than I do it myself. (mutual symbiosis) ----------------------- Thanks, Eagle 24385 From: eaglenarius Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Killing responsibility Hi Icaro, -----Original Message----- From: icaro franca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 6:09 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Fala Belo !!!! -------------------- EAGLE : By the way, what does the above phrase mean ? I cannot find it in Engl. Dictionary. -------------------- One of the many mistakes about Kammic law is that it deals only with cause and effect: for example, you go to a camping at the Himalayas and, while sitting inside your tent, with the cold wind blowing outside, you ruthlessly kill a hundred louses at your clothes... and with this unmerciful act you manage to invoke the Kammic law! When you are back to civilization, at a sunny day, when you are peacefully walking on the streets, suddenly you are ran over by a hundred giant louses! Kamma law fulfilled !!! Not at all. --------------------------- EAGLE : It sounds like a cartoon movie, thanks anyway. The real story is I did enjoying killing the insects and other small animals. with fully attention, I pulled their legs and opened their body to see what was inside. At that time I didn't think that it was a bad deed. -------------------------- Human acts can be Kusala or Akusala. If you think that human deals with reality are a matter of Citta and cetasika, nama and rupa, with no self at the guidance of the process, you will perceive that the so called "Kamma Law" is not cause-and-effect at direct way: it´s not a matter of Crime-and-Punishment, but better a question about what are the real components of our acts, our thoughts and how these state of affairs will develop ahead in our lives. ------------------------------ EAGLE : This no self is a very Buddhist doctrine, but I cannot digest it due to the question who is the next self which have to endure the consequences of bad deed. I think I have to close this no self question till my Right Understanding arise. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24386 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:09am Subject: Re: Disappearance of the Sasana --- Howard: Thank you for the additional details. I've re-read the article at the >web site and find myself *quite* the unbeliever. >It is nice that >folks have something to "reverence", but to my mind, they have made >a poor choice of object of veneration in this case. O>bviously, I do recognize the possibility of my evaluation being in error. Howver, I strongly believe otherwise. May it be so that this strong >belief is not the result of being a hopelessly deluded puthujjana who has no >chance >of taking even baby steps on the path until Lord Metteya arrives. ____ Dear Howard. The Theravada have been concerned with preserving the teaching as well as practising it. Correct practice depends on correct theory so the two are related. Still if we are overly concerned with the preservation of the theory – without a proper insight into the application then that concern is likely to be weighed down by upadana (attachment) and not be beneficial to anyone. On the other hand if we accept the theory and endeavour to practice correctly, but then have disdain for the efforts of the sangha over centuries who preserved it then that seems ungrateful. The desana is actually both a warning and a prediction. As a warning it conditions samvega for us to work towards keeping the Dhammavinaya without altering it. As a prediction it lets us be balanced and know that these matters will occur, and also let us make efforts now to insight the teachings, as they will soon be past. ____________________________ Anagatavamsa commentary:"""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances. 'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nirvana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. As time goes on and on these disciples of mine are nonreturners and once-returners and stream-winners. There will be no disappearance of attainment for these. But with the extinction of the last stream-winner's life, attainment will have disappeared. "As time goes on and on learning will decay. In this decay the Great Patthana itself will decay first. In this decay also (there will be) Yamaka, Kathavatthu, Puggalapannati, Dhatukatha, Vibhanga and Dhammasangani. When the Abhidhamma Pitaka decays the Suttanta Pitaka will decay. When the Suttantas decay the Anguttara will decay first. When it decays the Samyutta Nikaya, the Majjhima Nikaya, the Digha Nikaya and the Khuddaka-Nikaya will decay. They will simply remember the jataka together with the Vinaya Pitaka. But only the conscientious (monks) will remember the Vinaya Pitaka. As time goes on and on, being unable to remember even the jataka, the Vessantara-jataka will decay first.""""""" _________________ Howard: After 2500 years, the jhanas are attainable, analytic >>insights, if that includes the tilakkhana, are attainable to *some* degree even in very >>>ordinary people such as myself, and to considerably higher degree in others [I do >>>strongly believe that there are newly attained ariyans in this world], and the tipitaka, after, no doubt, some loss *early* on, seems to be in rather secure >>shape now, being preserved by print and electronic media, and not only by the >>memory of human beings. _______________ The `analytical insights' is a translation of patisambhida and means the special wisdom of the greatest type of arahants. After these type become extinct there are still sukkhavipassaka arahants, who have no special powers. I think you are right that the new forms of media will slow the loss of the Pariyatti. We see how the arahants at the 4th council decided to commit it to writing with this aim in mind – as they could see how suuceeding generations would find it hard to preserve based on oral tradition alone. However, even though the complete Patthana is available now – very few people now study it in depth. And the Jataka commentaries such as Vessantara are already often scoffed at. ________________ Howard:>Many Theravadins charge the Mahayanists, with considerable justification, I think, of creating new teachings which, while often >quite worthwhile and in perfect harmony with the Buddha word, are not Buddha word but are >put forward as such. Most of those "sutras", however, at least have the advantage >of positivity, encouraging continued practice of the Dharma. But this >work, >apparently constructed by a Theravadin Metteya cult lacks even that. __________ Yes there is obviously much in the Mahayana that is true and valuable. Cakkavatti-sutta (Digha-nikaya) p403(walshe) "and in that time of the people with an eighty-thousand year life span there will arise in the world an arahant fully-enlightened Buddha named Metteya…..he will be attended by a company of thousands of monks"" Even in the Buddha's time there were some who thought they had attainments but who were deluded. Wrong view is very subtle sometimes. :Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness: "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; ….From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release." As time goes on there will be more misunderstandings about what is the path and what is not. Imitation concentration and insight will increase and what is micchavimutti will be taken for true nibbana As the centuries pass apparently monks behaviour will slowly deteriorate- Although there will continue to be outstanding ones, these will be a declining percentage and so it becomes harder to preserve the DhammaVinaya. . Kindred Sayings xvi, 12 "Thus have I heard: The Exalted One was once staying at Savatthi, at Jeta Grove, in the Anathapindika Park. Now the venerable Maha-Kassapa went into his presence, saluted him and sat down beside him. So seated, the venerable Maha-Kassapa said this to the Exalted One: 'What now, Lord, are the conditions, what is the cause that formerly there were both fewer precepts and more brethren were established as Arahants ? What, lord, are the conditions, what is the cause that now-a-days there are more precepts and fewer brethren are established as Arahants?' 'It happens thus, Kassapa. When members decrease, and the true doctrine disappears, there are then more precepts, and few brethren are established as Arahants. There is no disappearing of the true doctrine, Kassapa, till a counterfeit doctrine arises in the world; but when a counterfeit doctrine does arise, then there is a disappearance of the true doctrine. Just as there is no disappearing of gold so long as there is no counterfeit gold arisen in the world. So it is with the true doctrine. ' The earth-element, Kassapa, does not make the true doctrine disappear, nor does the water-element, nor the heat-element, nor the air-element. But here in the Order itself futile men arise, and it is they who make the true doctrine disappear. 'Take the sinking of a ship, Kassapa, by overlading: it is not thus that the true doctrine disappears. There are five lowering things that conduce to the obscuration and disappearance of the true doctrine. Which five? 'It is when brethren and sisters, laymen and laywomen live in irreverence and are unruly toward the Teacher, live in irreverence and are unruly toward the training, live in irreverence and are unruly toward concentrative study. 'But when they live in reverence and docility toward these Five, then do these five things conduce to the maintenance, the clarity, the presence of the true doctrine."" RobertK : 24387 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Victor (Howard & Nori), I think Howard’s gentle comments summarised my thoughts on this topic very well. Anyway, I’ve been reflecting further, so I’ll add a little more. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > To live alone in solitude is to give up that attachment. And to > give up that attachment, one is to live alone in solitude. .... I think I’m the one supplying the textual support on this thread, Victor;-) Why don’t you think in all those suttas when the Buddha addressed Anathapinidika, that he and his large family and servants were never told to live in solitude (i.e physically alone without family or possessions as you understand the word)? .... V:> Let me use the analogy of smoking. > Addiction to nicoltine propels one keep smoking as a habit. > Unless one sees that smoking is unhealthy to self and desires to > live healthy, one would just keep smoking. > Without actually refraining from smoking, addiction to nicoltine > would never be eradicated. ..... OK, to follow your analogy a little further, the Buddha also teaches us that we are addicted to and intoxicated by what is appearing through the 6 senses. How should the addiction be eradicated? Starting with visible objects appearing, would it not follow that for a start, we should wander around blindfold. Then we could have our ears blocked, our sense of smell and taste removed, our hands tied and so on. Of course, as you describe, there might be some withdrawal symptoms..... Does a blind or deaf person really have less attachment to visible objects and sounds? Not that I’m aware of. ..... V:> Now, refraining from smoking does not necessarily mean that one's > addiction to nicoltine is completely eradicated. > However, refraining from smoking is necessary to eradicate the > addiction to nicoltine. .... Is refraining from seeing necessary to eradicate this kind of addiction?? Victor, I apologise if these comments sound flippant. I take this thread seriously and am glad you are still discussing it. I agree with you that there is a lot of attachment for most of us in our family lives and I’ve never encouraged anyone to follow in my footsteps in this regard;-) On the otherhand, I think we have to really be honest to face up to our inclinations and to know how we can live easily whilst developing our understanding of the Dhamma. Some of our friends on DSG can live very well in a hermitage or with very limited contact with others and without any possessions. Whilst I admire this, for myself, I know that when I try to live this way, it is very ‘forced’ and unnatural and is symptomatic of a desire for certain speeded up results for ME, rather than evidence of greater understanding and detachment. I think we have to really know our own inclinations in these regards. As it says in the commentary to the Samannaphala Sutta, the one lacks the four requisites of moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment, "does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as animals or forest wanderers." As the suttas we’ve quoted recently, such as the Thera sutta or Migajala sutta show, the true meaning of ‘living alone’ as described by the Buddha, refers to the living without attachment: ‘Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and felmale lay follower, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore his is called a lone dweller." (SN, Bk of 6 Sense Bases.63, B.Bodhi trans) You may feel that I keep quoting the same suttas (and it’s true;-)). However, I came across a short article I wrote a long time ago. This is an extract which includes a quote from the Migasala Sutta --not to be confused with Migajala--, AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl). I see that B.Bodhi gives the title ‘Don’t Judge Others!’(p.159. Numerical Discourses). ***** Migasala comes to see Ananda. She explains that the Buddha said that both her father, Purana, and her uncle, Isidatta reached the same level of enlightenment. She cannot understand it because she says her father lived ‘the godly life, dwelling apart, abstaining from common, carnal things’. Isidatta, on the other hand ‘did not live the godly life but rejoiced with a wife’. When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that ‘herein Isidatta fares not Purana’s way but another’s.’ He also urges Ananda not to be a ‘measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.’ In this sutta the Buddha also gives examples of two people who might be of similar nature and judged equally by the ‘measurer of persons’. In fact there may be conditions for one of those judged to hear and understand the Teachings and who after death ‘fares to excellence’. He explains again that the harm is to the ‘measurer’... .....we can begin to know more and more about the subtle as well as gross degrees of comparison, when we have an idea for even an instant that we are better, equal or worse than others in some way, such as in our lifestyle. Sometimes we may feel let down by inconsistencies in others’ behaviour or we may have a wonderful image of someone which is crushed. If we understand more about the different conditioned realities we will realise that while we are not enlightened, our deep-rooted tendencies make us capable of almost any deed through body, speech or mind. Realising this, we can be more understanding and sympathetic, without trying to change our nature to how we think it should be. ***** I just tried to find an on-line link for you. Hope this works: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/008-akankhavaggo-e.htm Victor, in summary, I appreciate and agree with your comments about the danger of attachment to a partner, children and so on. Indeed we read many suttas about the bondage involved. Sumana’s example (Anathapindaka’s daughter that died of a broken heart after not finding a husband in spite of being enlightened) is indeed a good reminder of this danger. Where we differ, however, is in our perception of the medicine for this intoxication and the way to eradicate it, I think. Look forward to your further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Nori, thanks for the thread!! ====== 24388 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sarah and Christine, Sarah, the content of our correspondence was concerning the Burma trip, nothing profound. As of late the cittas arising here have been not just darting amongst unrealities, but lots and lots of kilesas have been conditioned to arise. Obviously the circumstances are not to be blamed, but shortage of accumulated panna. :-( However I have been very much enjoying the discussions on dsg and am very grateful to all those who have posted. I am especially happy for the arrival of Icaro here in this group, he is a real inspiration. Hello Icaro, welcome to dsg from me! :-) With regard to the value of my input, I find that others always say things much more clearer and in greater depth than I can. But you will be happy to note that eventhough I do not write, partly because I am usually about a day late in my reading, I discover later that many of the reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). Sarah, I am not thinking about "labels, terms, Pali" right now, but if something comes up, I may write something, but not now... Chris, I do not think the problem is your mail system, but I do have problems with mine, actually not all the posts from dsg come to my mailbox even. Will end here. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Sukin (& Azita), > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sukin (and > Azita), > > > > Sorry to use dsg for this - > > Just to say I AM replying to your emails - > > .... > Hope DSG is going to receive some mail from you too;-)That way, we all > share your pearls of wisdom;-) > > Sukin, what are your latest reflections on the use of labels, terms, Pali > and other aspects you raised when we were in Bkk. Would be great if you > could introduce the topic in a simple way. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 24389 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina (Lodewijk, Mike & Dan), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > I hope others (Mike, Sarah) can help me how to explain better about: > "just > nama and rupa, just visible object!". I mean, how do explain it to > Lodewijk. .... I don’t think the words or explanation are really the problem. I think the Dhamma is so profound and when we begin to realise this and to understand its value, it can be very frustrating when there doesn’t seem to be any panna (direct understanding)and when we can’t quite ‘grasp’ what is being said. We see this expressed over and over again on DSG. Lodwijk should realise that most people experience the same frustration and annoyance at times when hearing these simple truths about ‘just nama and rupa’. I forget if you had joined when Dan started writing his series about how discouraging some of the posts were (mostly Jon’s and mine, I think). He started with 1.1 ‘Discouraging..’ and we thought there was going to be a long series, but somewhere along the track it underwent a U-turn;-)(Dan, I think that deep down we’re still half expecting and dreading 1.2;-)) Of course no one speaks or writes or asks questions about the Dhamma in order for people to feel discouraged or despondent, but given the nature of attachment to views and self, I think it’s inevitable that this will follow - especially when we find out what beginners we are on the path, or rather how much ignorance has been accumulated. If we didn’t see the value at all in the teachings, then I don’t think there would be these often strong reactions. (It reminds me of the warning that Ken H says Mr Goenka gives during the middle of his course ;-)) None of this is to suggest that we shouldn’t try to find other ways to express the little we understand of the Dhamma or even to keep quiet at times. I like all Mike’s suggestions. Rather like the example of Ananda’s welcome, different explanations are sometimes more appropriate, but we’re not Ananda and you always do your best. I know Lodewijk is very, very grateful for all your writings too,‘The Perfections’ in particular. For myself, I’d greatly appreciate hearing any comments Lodewijk has on topics such as the ‘Right Livelihood’ one. He has had such great experience of working with people from all walks of life. Also when I wrote about ‘correctness of welcome’, I thought about his courteous and appropriate greetings to everyone, everytime - just like the King’s. Perhaps if he shares a few comments or reflections (I know you have to do the typing), it will give him a rest from thinking about your father and his problems or about his own frustrations. Like we’ve said before, it’s very therapeutic to talk about Dhamma to others and consider their difficulties too. When we see how common these kilesa are, we can smile and laugh - like about the cry babies. I’m one as well whenever Jon goes on a trip;-) Mike will know what I’m talking about in the example above about ‘Discouraging’ and I’m sure he will have some very good suggestions too. Dan as well if he’s settled in on the west coast.(Just not 1.2 please!!) Metta, Sarah p.s I also remember Christine's frustration with the 'anatta and no control' thread and as she's said with 'puppets' and 'stories'. Perhaps she can also add some suggestions to help. ===== 24390 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Hi Manu, You may remember me, we met in my shop in Panthip Plaza!? Welcome to the group. I can't help you with ideas about systematic study, I am the most unsystematic person I know! ;-) Since I am from Bangkok, I can however give you an idea with regard to availability of good Dhamma books. The best ones, the Tipitaka and commentaries are never available in its entirety nor even enough to satisfy one's chandha for a collection of good books. Sometimes however, The Mahamakata (sp?) Bookshop, opposte Wat Bavorn near Banglumphoo, has selected tiltles from BPS and PTS. There is no other place in Bangkok or Chiang Mai! I like to order for myself from Pariyatti Books, and I would recommend this to you too. This is their address: http://www.pariyatti.com I trust them with my credit card information. Some very good books are however for free, and you can get them from me when you visit Bkk next. ;-) These are books distributed by the Foundation of which K. Sujin is the head. Some of the books are by her and some by Nina. Hope to see your own contributions to the list. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends: > > I joined this group some time back and have been following the discussions > with considerable interest and awe. Although many of the things being said > go over my head, it strengthens my resolve to carry on the study of Dhamma > further. Opportunity to hear (and learn) Dhamma is one of the most > precious things and I am sincerely grateful to all the members of this group > for being given this opportunity. > > My name is Manu Wadhwani. I have been living in Laos for a long time. I > started meditation and reading about Dhamma about 6 years ago. > > My study of Dhamma, like all new comers I would guess, is reading all that I > can lay my hands on. I am not sure if that is the best approach. Is there > any prescribed way of studying Dhamma? It would be very interesting to hear > from the members of this group about how they have structured their study > because all seem so well organized, quoting and pointing to the references > on any given topic immediately. > > Since many of the members are familiar with Thailand, can anyone suggest > where I can buy English translations of the Canon in Bangkok or Chiang Mai? > > Respectfully, > Manu Wadhwani 24391 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin (& Eddie), Good to hear from you both;-) --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: >As of late the cittas arising here have been not > > just darting amongst unrealities, but lots and lots of kilesas have been > > conditioned to arise. Obviously the circumstances are not to be blamed, > but shortage of accumulated panna. :-( .... Sukin, I’m sorry to read between the lines that things may not have been too good for you recently. Like Anathapindika, I know that even if your wealth is reduced to ‘bird-seed and sour gruel’ you’ll continue to show your generosity which will bring its own reward. ..... > However I have been very much enjoying the discussions on dsg and > am very grateful to all those who have posted. I am especially happy for > > the arrival of Icaro here in this group, he is a real inspiration. Hello > > Icaro, welcome to dsg from me! :-) .... I know. I think DSG will seem like boot-camp when he leaves us for his military one. Perhaps he’ll be able to sneak out the occasional postcard to us all to ‘upright’ our withdrawal symptoms. (Hope I’m not encouraging anything naughty and against the rules, Icaro.) .... > With regard to the value of my input, I find that others always say > things > much more clearer and in greater depth than I can. .... Would that be a tad of maana (conceit) sneaking in there, Sukin?? ..... >But you will be > happy to note that eventhough I do not write, partly because I am > usually about a day late in my reading, .... ...No excuse.... .... >I discover later that many of > the > reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. > Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more > deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some > of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). .... I must be doing something right in that case, Sukin! Kom, too!! .... > Chris, I do not think the problem is your mail system, but I do have > problems with mine, actually not all the posts from dsg come to my > mailbox even. ... I agree with Sukin. I seldom send him any note off-list as I know his mail system rejects most;-( At least here, others read it. Just add a Dhammapada verse to your Burma notes....;-)Thx for encouraging him. Also, Eddie, great to see you around again. Look forward to more of your contributions. Metta, Sarah ====== 24392 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question Hi Stephen M, Thank you for joining us here and for sharing from the books given to you by Ven U.Vimala. Your question (to Nina) was very interesting. I look forward to reading any further comments you have on the responses. ..... --- alpha16draconis wrote: > > I have dozens of little books that were indended for English speaking > bhikkhus that were printed in Burma and given to me by Ven. U. Vimala > to assist me in Right Understanding. ..... I presume you are referring to Right Understanding of the eightfold path, i.e vipassana? ..... > Only if vipassana insight meditation is practiced, will one be able > to realize nibbana and be completely free from all kinds of misery > and sufferings. There are two modes of practicing vipassana > meditation. They are: (1) practicing samatha using it as a vehicle for > the attainment of vipassana nana. > (2) practicing kammathana vipassana pure and > directly without the basic exercise of > samatha. > A person who practices kamatthanna vipassana meditation without using > samatha as a ground work, is known as suddha-vipassanayanika. > > A person who practices meditation for realization of nibbana making > use of samatha as a frame-work is known as samathayanika, which means > a person who 'makes his way' to nibbana using samatha as a vehicle. ..... There is a lot that can be discussed in just this section that you quote from Mahasi Sayadaw. I think the two ‘modes’ referred to relate to the way nibbana is realised. For me, the main point to remember is that in truth there is no self or person to ‘practice’ or ‘do’ anything. Vipassana has to be the path of detachment from any idea of self regardless of the objects experienced, I think. Stephen, I look forward to any further contributions you make and notes from those little books. You’ll soon find that there are a whole range of understandings here about aspects of the Dhamma, including jhanas and their role. What we all share is a great respect for these teachings and a sincere interest to share and question the various viewpoints. I think it is the (friendly and respectful) diversity of reflections on the same texts that keeps this such a busy spot;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24393 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sarah: Sukin: " the arrival of Icaro here in this group, he is a > real inspiration. Hello > > > > Icaro, welcome to dsg from me! :-) > .... Sarah: "I know. I think DSG will seem like boot-camp when he > leaves us for his > military one. Perhaps he’ll be able to sneak out the > occasional postcard > to us all to ‘upright’ our withdrawal symptoms. > (Hope I’m not encouraging > anything naughty and against the rules, Icaro.)" ------------------------------------------------------- Oh... Oh... it´s flattening!!! My other colleagues will meet with me at September 10 to stand the final details of travel! Undoubtfully I will keep contact with you all at Boot Camp if there is a Computer linked to net available! Don´t worry, Sarah! Don´t you tempt me! Don´t you tempt me...hahahahah!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24394 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hello Robert, Below explanation makes me panic. This is very horrible. I cannot imagine to compare our understanding to Bodhisatva, then it is surely come to a conclusion that most of us will rebirt to sometimes to animal realm, mostly to hell realm. In Buddhist text how does it feel living in hell realm ? is it the same as in Christianity or Mohammedisme? Before, I thought if we try to live according to Buddhisme even in the first (or half, maybe) step, we will rebirth in a realm which supports the first step to the next step until we attain nibbana. But now I'm quite panic to know that we will 'forget' with high probability our mission/step in the next rebirth. Please correct me, if I misunderstood. Thanks, Eagle -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:46 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 The Brahmajala sutta commentary says that the one with extreme wrongview is the one who becomes 'rooted in the round" . There are many cases of those who were beginning to develop right understanding- but who took animal or hellish rebirth, who soon came back to human life. Even the Bodhisata\ta , after gaining prediction of Buddhahood many times was born as animal and even in hell. Another example is queen Malika - died, went to hell for 7 days , then to deva world, visited Buddha and became a sotapanna. Robert -------------------------- 24395 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Sarah, Sorry for the late reply. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:58 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Eagle, No problem - Icaro/Icarus can’t either;-) Thank you also for initially telling us a little about yourself. I noticed that you live near Jakarta and sincerely hope there are no more terrorist attacks there. --------------------------- EAGLE : I appreciate your hope. If I were Wishmaster, I would say "as you wish". It was a terrible blast caused by ignorance or wrong view, wasn't it ? ------------------------------------ We have a few other fairly quiet members from Indonesia. I hope you can encourage them with your contributions;-) Please don’t think you need to share anything brilliant (as you mentioned before) - we all lack knowledge and just try to support and encourage each other as friends. Sometimes too, the simplest questions and comments are the best. Actually, I can tell from your comments that you are quite familiar with the Dhamma and just being modest, I think. -------------------------------------- EAGLE : Actually, I'm a real idiot. I've know Buddhism for quite a long time, but I remember very little of it. The more I read, the more it flies away from my memory. I wonder how could all of members here know/remember so much about Pali Canon, even could show the text / sutta. Amazing !!! I'm really admiring that. ---------------------------- Thanks, Eagle 24396 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - Thank you so much for this well worked out and helpful reply. (I include only enough of your writing below to identify the post to other readers.) In a message dated 8/20/03 4:13:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard. > The Theravada have been concerned with preserving the teaching as > well as practising it. Correct practice depends on correct theory so > the two are related. Still if we are overly concerned with the > preservation of the theory – without a proper insight into the > application then that concern is likely to be weighed down by > upadana (attachment) and not be beneficial to anyone. On the other > hand if we accept the theory and endeavour to practice correctly, > but then have disdain for the efforts of the sangha over centuries > who preserved it then that seems ungrateful. > The desana is actually both a warning and a prediction. As a warning > it conditions samvega for us to work towards keeping the > Dhammavinaya without altering it. As a prediction it lets us be > balanced and know that these matters will occur, and also let us > make efforts now to insight the teachings, as they will soon be past. > ____________________________ > =============================== I particularly appreciate the following in your reply: The mention of the purpose of instilling a realization of urgency and the need to preserve - very worthy, and the clarification you give of the so called analytic insights as "the special wisdom of the greatest type of arahants." This latter clarification, in particular, makes the predictive aspects of the work more plausible to me. I also appreciate your inclusion of the suttic reference of Kindred Sayings xvi, 12. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24397 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:31am Subject: Reminders; Info about email commands Hi All, A couple of reminders, and some useful information. First the reminders. Trimming When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete as much of the other post as possible, keeping only the part that is necessary for your reply. (This applies to any part of the other post that appears *before* your own message, as well as to the part appearing after your message.) Salutation etc Please use a salutation at the beginning of each post, to make it clear who you are addressing/replying to, and sign off the end (preferably with a real name). Thanks for your co-operation. Now for the information. The email commands given below can be used for the functions indicated (and will save you a visit to the website). To use any of the commands, just send a blank email to the address shown. 1. To change your subscription to receive a daily digest of the messages posted: dhammastudygroup-digest@yahoogroups.com 2. To change your subscription to receive individual copies of each message posted: dhammastudygroup-normal@yahoogroups.com 3. To change your subscription so as not to receive any messages for the time being: dhammastudygroup-nomail@yahoogroups.com 4. To receive general help information: dhammastudygroup-help@yahoogroups.com Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments or questions should be sent to us off-list only. Thanks. 24398 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 ---> Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 > > > The Brahmajala sutta commentary says that the one with extreme > wrongview is the one who becomes 'rooted in the round" . > There are many cases of those who were beginning to develop right > understanding- but who took animal or hellish rebirth, who soon came > back to human life. Even the Bodhisata\ta , after gaining prediction > of Buddhahood many times was born as animal and even in hell. > Another example is queen Malika - died, went to hell for 7 days , > then to deva world, visited Buddha and became a sotapanna. > Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" wrote: > Hello Robert, > > THIS explanation makes me panic. This is very horrible. I cannot imagine to > compare our understanding to Bodhisatva, then it is surely come to a > conclusion that most of us will rebirt to sometimes to animal realm, mostly > to hell realm. In Buddhist text how does it feel living in hell realm ? is > it the same as in Christianity or Mohammedisme? > Before, I thought if we try to live according to Buddhisme even in the first > (or half, maybe) step, we will rebirth in a realm which supports the first > step to the next step until we attain nibbana. But now I'm quite panic to > know that we will 'forget' with high probability our mission/step in the > next rebirth. > Please correct me, if I misunderstood. > > Thanks, > Eagle >__________ Dear Eagle, Things aren't so bad. We have been born countless times in the lower realms but we have also accumulated much merit so that now we can hear Dhamma and be human. The bodhisatta has to go through much difficulties as these are the grindstone against which the parami are sharpened. As disciples we have it easier. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven". And for those born in heaven who have Dhamma insight: Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER(1) Blessings ""BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.""" Robert 24399 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi, Robert - Your eye for picking suttas never fails to amaze me, Robert. What you present here is so encouraging and positive, so offsetting of fear, and, at the same time, presenting the choice of the more fear-filled and demanding career of Bodhisatta vs the less fearful path of the hearer. I think this is a real contribution to the understanding of many of us. With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/20/03 11:01:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear Eagle, Things aren't so bad. We have been born countless times in the lower realms but we have also accumulated much merit so that now we can hear Dhamma and be human. The bodhisatta has to go through much difficulties as these are the grindstone against which the parami are sharpened. As disciples we have it easier. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven". And for those born in heaven who have Dhamma insight: Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER(1) Blessings ""BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.""" Robert /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24400 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply and references. This is how I see it: Regarding addiction and intoxication to senses, you asked: How should the addiction be eradicated? Seclusion from sensual pleasures is necessary. Seclusion from sensual pleasure is not the same as wandering around blindfold, having ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on.* What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. Whether to live with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession or to live alone in solitude is a personal decision. Even if one lives with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, one can still observe the five precepts, refraining from unwholesome actions, and meditate, cultivating one's mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * That reminds me of the following incident: "Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One (who said), 'When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish man cut off something else.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/ch10.html In the same vein, it would be foolish to blindfold oneself, having one's ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on thinking that this would eradicate addiction and intoxication to senses. 24401 From: elias broman Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:30am Subject: introduction hello i use @hotmail.com therefore i cannot reply to your messages, but i can write a new topic/post. so i thought it would be little information of myself, and maybe ad something about the dhamma at the end of the e-mail. My name is Elias, I'm 18 years old and live in Sweden. I have one year left in school, i wish to become a monk in Sri Lanka, so after school i will trie to leave sweden really soon, so i will become a monk at a low age and hopefuly stay as one the rest of the life. I really wished i were born as a monk, to late now though, my mother do not like the idea that i wish to become a monk, but she accept it and allow it, a great mother. As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct. Before i become a buddhist i were the opposite, i studied astral projection, that's soul-walking, or out-of-body-experiences. As a young kid i used to play a lot of fantasie games, i really were into fantasies, as we can relate to sankhara. karmatic formations. Later at young age i did think about death and life, 'what's the point of living if there's only a flow to follow?' Later i get into a really big depression, tried drugs, and got a psycologic. It were very intresting for me, how the mind had seemed to change the envorinment to something negative. that's for short. Also i'm absolutly sure i've meeted people for past lives, as probebly many of you have, we do it all day, don't we? But for some we can recognize it more easily, we become very bounded to them. As many say "the right partner", because it 'clicks', just a click and they fall in love, look, style, way of life, way of thinking, do not interfere their love. thiswould be because they recognize theirself from some past life, therefore as buddha said, 'recognizion leads to attachment'. As often, this things as style, way of living etc to have a bigger part later in the relationship, and it may live or not live anymore, the relationship. * as swedish, i speak and write swedish language, not english. so there is some typos. Many people are very intrested in ghosts, past lives, or the future, or universal questions. but i say to you all, try to care about the present, it will give much more happinies. Ofcurse you can sitt down, take a reflection break. that's what i call it, reflection break. But try to live in the present, because... thoughts are not true... Elias 24402 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] explaining paramatthas. Dear Howard. best regards from Lodewijk. Thank you for your kind and encouraging words about BDL. Nina. op 19-08-2003 20:38 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: I'm in the process of > reading your book Buddhism in Daily Life, 24403 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Icaro, In Thailand some ladies are dressed in white and observe eight precepts. I myself am not looking for societies, it seems so formal. Therefore, I have no info about them. I know a lady dressed in white I greatly respect. She helps very much at the Foundation in Bgk, has great knowledge of Pali, dedicates all her time to the Dhamma and has excellent understanding of the Dhamma. She is the aunt of one of our group here. I have often consulted her about difficult points of Dhamma via her nephew. It comes naturally to her to live without any fringes, wearing the most simple dress. For me it is a privilege to know her. She is at the podium with A. Sujin and others at the foundation to help addressing people, answering questions. I am always very happy to see her. A. Sujin said, you can observe as many precepts as you want without letting others know. Instead of the wellknown eight there are other eight concerning right speech. She said, these can be observed every day. When the co speaks about laypeople being bhikkhus, it is in the inward sense: developing the eightfold Path. op 19-08-2003 12:36 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > About laypersons: are there a "sangha" for them > (brotherhoods, orders, guilds, lodges, etc)? I am > thinking on an analogy with the Roman Catholic Church... > Is the Theravada buddhism alike ? I?ve saw some > photos of laypersons > wearing a white robe .. 24404 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim, Thank you very much. Subco is so difficult, but I cannot keep on asking. I shall try and then add ?? marks in the text when in doubt. Nina. op 19-08-2003 17:52 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > 'byava' represents the prefixes 'vi' and 'ava' before 'haara', hence > 'byavahaara' (or vyavahaara) and is equivalent to the more usual Pali > 'vohaara' (business, trade, etc.). 24405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 14 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:22:46 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 14 Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 14 Relevant sutta passage: metta~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of loving kindness, yo byaapaado so pahiiyissati. that which is malevolence will be abandoned... karu.na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of compassion, yaa vihesaa saa pahiiyissati. that which is harming will be abandoned... mudita~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of sympathetic joy, yaa arati saa pahiiyissati. that which is dislike will be abandoned... upekkha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of equanimity, yo pa.tigho so pahiiyissati. that which is anger will be abandoned... asubha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of foulness, yo raago so pahiiyissati. that which is attachment will be abandoned... aniccasa~n~na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development that is the perception of impermanence, yo asmimaano so pahiiyissati. that which is the conceit of ³I am² will be abandoned. ***** Commentary: tattha bhaavayatoti upacaara.m vaa appana.m vaa paapentassa. As regards the words, from developing it in this way, this means: from causing to attain access concentration or attainment concentration. yo byaapaadoti yo satte kopo, so pahiiyissati. As to the words, what is malevolence, this means: what is anger towards a being will be abandoned. vihesaati paa.niaadiihi sattaana.m vihi.msana.m. As to the word, vexation, this is cruelty to living beings with one¹s hands and so on. aratiiti pantasenaasanesu ceva adhikusaladhammesu ca ukka.n.thitataa. As to the word aversion, this is dissatisfaction of secluded lodgings and superior qualities. pa.tighoti yattha katthaci sattesu sa"nkhaaresu ca pa.tiha~n~nanakileso. As to the word anger, this means, the defilements with regard to beings and events that cause disturbance everywhere. asubhanti uddhumaatakaadiisu upacaarappana.m. As to the word foul, this refers to access concentration and attainment concentration with a bloated corpse and so on. uddhumaatakaadiisu asubhabhaavanaa ca naamesaa vitthaarato visuddhimagge kathitaava. With regard to the bloated corpse, the meditation on the foul has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. raagoti pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraago. As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure. aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the words, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. asmimaanoti ruupaadiisu asmiiti maano. As to the words ³conceit of I am², this is conceit of ³I am² in materiality and so on. English: As regards the words, from developing it in this way, this means: from causing to attain access concentration or attainment concentration. As to the words, what is malevolence, this means: what is anger towards a being will be abandoned. As to the word, vexation, this is cruelty to living beings with one¹s hands and so on. As to the word aversion, this is dissatisfaction of secluded lodgings and superior qualities. As to the word anger, this means, the defilements with regard to beings and events that cause disturbance everywhere. As to the word foul, this refers to access concentration and attainment concentration with a bloated corpse and so on. With regard to the bloated corpse, the meditation on the foul has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure. As to the words, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. As to the words ³conceit of I am², this is conceit of ³I am² in materiality and so on. ***** 24406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: subco Vis, no 4 Dear Jim and Larry, there is still a correction at the end of subco 3: > katha.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetii ti? But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. ***** Subco no 4: 4. idaani yathaavuttamattha.m upamaaya pati.t.thaapetu.m Now, in order to establish by a simile the meaning as stated, ``yathaa hii''tiaadi vutta.m. it was said: ³just as etc.² tattha ajaatabuddhiiti asa~njaatabyavahaarabuddhi. There it was said, (a child) without discrimination, meaning, not knowing about commerce. upabhogaparibhoganti upabhogaparibhogaaraha.m, As to the words pleasure and enjoyment, this means, suitable for pleasure and enjoyment. upabhogaparibhogavatthuuna.m pa.tilaabhayogyanti attho. The meaning is the endeavour to acquire the objects of pleasure and enjoyment. chekoti mahaasaaro. The word genuine means: of great value. kuu.toti kahaapa.napatiruupako tambaka.msaadimayo. The word false means: what resembles a coin, made of copper, bronze, etc. addhasaaroti upa.d.dhagghanako. As to the word, half value, this means having half weight. iti-saddo aadiattho, tena paadasaara samasaaraparopaadasaaraadiina.m sa"ngaho. The word ³iti² (thus, or end quote; here coming after: this is half value, aya.m addhasaaroo²ti) means and so on. Therefore, the word value is a summary of the words, meaning, of the same value and other words about value. (?) te pakaareti indajaalaajaatipupphaadippakaare ceva chekaadippakaare ca. As to the words ³those kinds² (the moneychanger knows), the meaning is: those kinds that are produced by magic, a kind of flower, etc. and also those which are genuine, etc. English: Now, in order to establish by a simile the meaning as stated, it was said: ³just as etc.² There it was said, (a child) without discrimination, meaning, not knowing about commerce. As to the words pleasure and enjoyment, this means, suitable for pleasure and enjoyment. The meaning is the endeavour to acquire the objects of pleasure and enjoyment. The word genuine means: of great value. The word false means: what resembles a coin, made of copper, bronze, etc. As to the word, half value, this means having half weight. The word ³iti² (thus, or end quote; here coming after: this is half value, aya.m addhasaaroo²ti) means and so on. Therefore, the word value is a summary of the words, meaning, of the same value and other words about value. (?) As to the words ³those kinds² (the moneychanger knows), the meaning is: those kinds that are produced by magic, a kind of flower, etc. and also those which are genuine, etc. ****** Nina. 24407 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Nina I more concern are these indetermine citta play a role. It is weird that it is left not explain. kind rgds Ken O --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Kenneth Ong, > op 15-08-2003 18:23 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...:> > > Please explain why it is indetermine. > > > > abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, > > not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, > > they are indeterminate. > All dhammas which are neither kusala nor akusala have been > classified as > indeterminate. Citta and cetasika which are vipaka, those which are > kiriya, > rupa and nibbana. There is not much to explain, it is just named > like that. > Nina. 24408 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Dear Eagle, There were countless past lives during which all of us have killed, and those kammas of long, long ago can bring results now or in the far future. If we start to worry there is no end and we have even more akusala cittas. Past is past, it has happened already and no use to worry. Nobody, except Buddhas, can know what kamma in the past will bring which result at what time. There were conditions for those kammas to happen. Better pay attention to this moment: not wasting opportunities for kusala and understanding. Nina. op 19-08-2003 12:37 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: > Do we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ? 24409 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor (and Sarah) - You ask for comments. My comment is that I completely agree with the formulation you give here! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/20/03 12:32:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply and references. This is how I see it: Regarding addiction and intoxication to senses, you asked: How should the addiction be eradicated? Seclusion from sensual pleasures is necessary. Seclusion from sensual pleasure is not the same as wandering around blindfold, having ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on.* What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. Whether to live with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession or to live alone in solitude is a personal decision. Even if one lives with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, one can still observe the five precepts, refraining from unwholesome actions, and meditate, cultivating one's mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * That reminds me of the following incident: "Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One (who said), 'When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish man cut off something else.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/ch10.html In the same vein, it would be foolish to blindfold oneself, having one's ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on thinking that this would eradicate addiction and intoxication to senses. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24410 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Nina: Nina: " In Thailand some ladies are dressed in white and > observe eight precepts. > I myself am not looking for societies, it seems so > formal. Therefore, I have > no info about them. > I know a lady dressed in white I greatly respect. > She helps very much at the > Foundation in Bgk, has great knowledge of Pali, > dedicates all her time to > the Dhamma and has excellent understanding of the > Dhamma. She is the aunt of > one of our group here. I have often consulted her > about difficult points of > Dhamma via her nephew. It comes naturally to her to > live without any > fringes, wearing the most simple dress. For me it is > a privilege to know > her. She is at the podium with A. Sujin and others > at the foundation to help > addressing people, answering questions." ---------------------------------------------------- Quelle gaucherie de ma part! Nina, I´ve raise such "off-topic" question because, reading many of the high quality posts of the dsg, one could really nurture the idea of take the noble path with serious intentions. A lad that posted here recently - Elias Broman, of Sweden - had stated the sincere impulse to go to Thailand and take the five vows and the yellow robe. Very good indeed! At my side, I will never have the calling to be a Bhikkhu - this is the truth. But since all of us are laypersons exchanging freely opinions and sharing teachings about Pali and Dhamma, more opportunities to help the Sangha could not only be advisable, but even desirable as a accumulation of good Kamma and Kusala feelings and thoughts! But... really forgive me, Nina. This kind of personal question is really out of order, I know - but you are the best person to clarify these matters, due your life and expertise at Orient issues. (I always remember the first chapter of the Lotus Sutra at these hours... a questioning crashing bore is that I am!!!) So, very thanks to you, Nina, for reply my extemporaneous and out of order question - very, very sad, tad! - I swear to you to keep my inquirings to you always on topic!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24411 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... > I think a life of a bikkhus helps in achieving purity in multiple different > ways, but not being a bikkhus (or those who live isolated) doesn't prevent > one from the realization of the noble truths. It occurs to me that I've come to the conclusion that 'not being a bhikkhu' does prevent one from the realization of the noble truths by way of jhaana. I'm sure opinions will differ on this(!). Do you know of any authoritative text for or against this idea? Do you think it's supported by the texts in general? Thanks, mike 24412 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Mike, > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:19 PM > > It occurs to me that I've come to the conclusion that 'not being > a bhikkhu' > does prevent one from the realization of the noble truths by way > of jhaana. > I'm sure opinions will differ on this(!). Do you know of any > authoritative > text for or against this idea? Do you think it's supported by > the texts in > general? > 1) I am pretty sure that jhana attainment is possible as a householder. There's a story of an upasika who became an anagami, and was able to read minds of the bikkhus who came to her house. She gave the bikkhus whatever they desired, but on knowing that the upasika can read their mind, one of the bikkhus developed the urgency (being ashamed of the defilements as a bikhus) and attained arahatship. 2) Unfortunately, I don't know the additional details and background of the above story how she came to reach the jhana attainment. I think some jhana / supernormal power came along with realizing the noble truths due to the accumulation in the *PREVIOUS* lives. For example, it isn't obvious (maybe others will correct) that V. Sariputta and Mahamogallana had achieved the jhana attainment when they became sota-panna, but both apparently, based on their jhanic states, realized the fruits of arahataship. V. Anada attained supernormal power only after he had reached arahatship. 3) We should read the 9 obstacles of developing Jhana in Vism and see if a life of a householder has these obstacles or not. If it does, how do we expect to achieve jhana attainment? Reaching upacara samathi requires quite a bit of efforts to retain the object, even when not sitting. What happens when one runs into objects of sense-desire that disturbs that object? 4) I speculate that reaching jhana (not thru realization of the noble path) is virtually impossible for a *married* house-holder, but possible, albeit difficult, for householders who are not. kom 24413 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Thank you so much for this well worked out and helpful reply. (I > include only enough of your writing below to identify the post to other readers.) > ____________________ > In a message dated 8/20/03 4:13:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > On the other > > hand if we accept the theory and endeavour to practice correctly, > > but then have disdain for the efforts of the sangha over centuries > > who preserved it then that seems ungrateful. ____________ Thnaks very much, Howard. I expand on one sentence I wrote:"if we are overly concerned with the > > preservation of the theory â€" without a proper insight into the > > application then that concern is likely to be weighed down by > > upadana (attachment) and not be beneficial to anyone." The theme of detachment is basic to the teachings. So even if we think it is important to preserve the teachings any efforts should be rooted in alobha (detachment). Anyway fortunately some zennish Buddhists (if that is the right word) (not you Howard) never miss a chance to prod more 'fundamental' Buddhists if they sense that attachment is predominant. It can be a nice warning of attachment if there is reaction. So how to put in great energy to preserving/praticing the teachings but without attachment? It is the profound path. RobertK 24414 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Ícaro, Thanks for the advise. My first response seemed not posted for some reason beyond my comprehension. Here is 2nd. I myself have done some analytical study (not religiously & definitely not fanatically but realistically & rationally) of my great Buddhism especially Buddha's teachings. I did it more like a scientific approach. Science even at this stage is but a micro-set (as compared to sub-set or super-set) of Buddha's wisdom & teachings. Metta, Eddie Lou --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Eddie: > > Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion at > these question about Dhamma. > First, you must get a clear definition about > "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) > Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic > books: > my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the > Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the > main > concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be afraid > to stuff your precious head with all the buddhistic > "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so > on: > they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail > or > mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! > Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! > Nina´s > exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the excelent > commentaries of all members will really make growth > your understanding on these matters. > A burden ? Not at all !!!! > > Metta, Ícaro > 24415 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Eddie: > > Eddie: " Now - why such game as - Dhamma ? I still > have not > > got the answer. > > I also agree with Kio that we can get too > involved > > with certain issues as quoted from hers: > > >Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used > > >appropriately as a guide, > > >the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may > > become >a burden." > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion at > these question about Dhamma. > First, you must get a clear definition about > "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) > Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic > books: > my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the > Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the > main > concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be afraid > to stuff your precious head with all the buddhistic > "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so > on: > they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail > or > mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! > Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! > Nina´s > exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the excelent > commentaries of all members will really make growth > your understanding on these matters. > A burden ? Not at all !!!! > > Metta, Ícaro Thanks Ícaro, I understand more or less all these things including the Abidhamma with little Manna (ego, I believe), what really baffles me is why all these entities like us & other beings, why beginningless and endless samsara (birth cycles). All these 'Bigger' Why things. These are what I call "game" or Dhamma. I see all these (nothing 'magical' or superstitious) to relate to Science (which is barely scratching the surface & should coincide with Buddha's teachings) especially physics & math. I believe we still may have to discover a lot of physical properties/phenomena like Nanotechnology, we did with Einstein's Relativity unusual, 'magical'-so unbelievable phenomena involving speed approaching speed of light. With Nanotechnology, we seem set to be dealing with properties related to Quantum mechanics on the scale of near atomic level. What about Karmic energy as similar to physical energy? This will reveal more of the Buddha's teachings, if it is the real truth, which I believe it is. BTW, I was born a Buddhist in name from Myanmar (Burma). I reached out to Buddhism (not religiously, definitely NOT fanatically but realistically) only when my mother suffered a lot from dialysis (bad) effects because out of karuna & metta, I sympathized and suffered pretty heavily. That opened my eyes to start search for real truth. At that time, I started looking in all different things - religions - all major ones and Sciences, just about anything I can think of but finally I found something that offered the closest model of truth - Buddhism. Now, I can not be considered just a Buddhist in name anymore. Metta, Eddie Lou 24416 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. So here is one and a couple more will follow. Larry 24417 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi all, Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states? The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. Larry 24418 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Vism. XIV, 7: What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states. (3) Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essenses of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration. Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what is the difference between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding of hardness? Azita? Larry 24419 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) ~Nanamoli, Vism VIII, n. 68: The individual essence of any formed dhamma is manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, arising, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. XXIII n.18: The subtleties of the word "nipphanna" are best cleared up by quoting a paragraph from the Sammohavinodani (VbhA.29): 'The five aggregates are positively-produced (parinipphanna) always, not unpositively-produced (apari-nipphanna); they are always formed, not unformed. Besides, they are produced (nipphanna) as well. For among the dhammas that are individual essences (sabhaava-dhamma) it is only nibbana that is unpositively-produced and unproduced (anipphanna)'. The Mula Tika comments on this: 'What is the difference between the positively-produced and the produced? A dhamma that is an individual essence with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three characteristics, is "positively produced". But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name or by attaining [the attainment of cessation]'. (VbhAA.23) Cf. also Ch. XIV, 72 &77. Hi all, some questions: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned." Larry: Why only "some concepts"? 2. Re: "But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name or by attaining [the attainment of cessation]'." Larry: Is nibbana different from the attainment of cessation? Nibbana is unproduced. 3. If carriages and persons are perceived to be impermanent then why are they not sabhaava-dhammas? Larry ps: Nibbana, Vism. XVI, 66: It has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the sign-less; or it is manifested as non-diversification [nippapan~nca]. 24420 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 (2) Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi Nina and Jim, Why is there no mention of the general characteristics here? (impermanence, suffering, not self) Larry 24421 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Correction! " A lad that posted here > recently - Elias Broman, of Sweden - had stated the > sincere impulse to go to Thailand and take the five > vows and the yellow robe. Very good indeed!" ---------------------------------------------------- That´s not Thailand. It´s Sri Lanka! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24422 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > Thank you very much. > Subco is so difficult, but I cannot keep on asking. I shall try and then add > ?? marks in the text when in doubt. > Nina. I saw your difficulty with the subco. to Vism XIV.4. The passage beginning with 'iti-saddo aadiattho, tena ...' means 'the word 'iti' has the meaning of 'aadi' (etc.), with this (word 'iti'), there is the inclusion of 'quarter value, equal value, more than a quarter value, etc.'. I'm sorry for not being of much help in your Pali translation work (including MN 62) with corrections and comments. This is largely due to a lack of time and my struggle to keep the internet from overwhelming me. With the Vism subco. I don't believe you're under any obligation or pressure to translate and post these passages from this difficult work, much of which is over my head too. It's entirely up to you, of course. Summer is fast coming to an end, and it will soon be time to start splitting firewood again in preparation for a long Canadian winter. It seems that the last several autumns have been a time for me to take a vacation from the discussion lists to spend time by myself, and this year will be no different. For the first ten years, I lived here from early spring to late fall with no electricity or telephone and managed quite well without them, but for the last five years that all changed with my getting hooked up to these services. Today, I thought it would be good to experience life for 3 months withou any telephone, internet, or radio contact with the outside world. So I may be disconnecting my phone and internet services for three months starting sometime next month and I'm also planning to go away soon for a week. If I do disconnect, I hope to be back online again by year's end. Best wishes, Jim 24423 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question: To Jim Anderson Dear Suan, Thank-you for your reply and for the quoted Vism passage. It all sounds reasonable to me. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, and all > > How are you? > > You wondered: > > "I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual > physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign > (uggahanimitta)." > > > We read the following at Section 57, Chapter 4 in Visuddhimaggo: > > "Athaanena sace taru.no samaadhi kenacideva asappaayakaara.nena > nassati, upaahanaa aaruyha kattarada.n.dam gahetvaa > tam .thaanam gantvaa nimittam aadaaya aagantvaa sukhanisinnena > bhaavetabbam." > > "Afterwards, in case the immature concentration slipped due to a > certain untoward cause, the ascetic, putting on the sandals, taking > the staff, going to that place of kasi.na source object, repossessing > the Learnt Image, and returning to the secluded place, should develop > concentration by sitting comfortably." 24424 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/20/03 7:48:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Have you found the level of conversation to be somewhat higher than ususal?? --------------------------------------------------- So here is one and a couple more will follow. Larry =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24425 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/20/03 7:50:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi all, Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states? The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. Larry ============================== Here's a reply from this non-abhidhammika: It depends on what one means by 'concept'. To me, one sense of 'concept' is that of a *thought* which sums up a mentally accumulated collection of paramattha dhammas, and that thought, *as* a thought, is, as far as I'm concerned, a direct element of experience, a paramattha dhamma, and it can be known by wisdom as impermanent, insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying. Moreover, it can be known with wisdom that it is empty in the sense of not pointing to the apparent "thing" that it seems to point to, there being no such thing, that alleged thing being "concept-only". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24426 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Kom, I think I didn't ask my question very well. Do you think it's possible to attain not jhaana (obviously possible I think), but enlightenment by way of jhaana, as a layperson? Do you think this is supported by the tipitaka? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:50 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... > Hi Mike, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:19 PM > > > > It occurs to me that I've come to the conclusion that 'not being > > a bhikkhu' > > does prevent one from the realization of the noble truths by way > > of jhaana. > > I'm sure opinions will differ on this(!). Do you know of any > > authoritative > > text for or against this idea? Do you think it's supported by > > the texts in > > general? > > > > 1) I am pretty sure that jhana attainment is possible as a householder. > There's a story of an upasika who became an anagami, and was able to read > minds of the bikkhus who came to her house. She gave the bikkhus whatever > they desired, but on knowing that the upasika can read their mind, one of > the bikkhus developed the urgency (being ashamed of the defilements as a > bikhus) and attained arahatship. > > 2) Unfortunately, I don't know the additional details and background of the > above story how she came to reach the jhana attainment. I think some jhana > / supernormal power came along with realizing the noble truths due to the > accumulation in the *PREVIOUS* lives. For example, it isn't obvious (maybe > others will correct) that V. Sariputta and Mahamogallana had achieved the > jhana attainment when they became sota-panna, but both apparently, based on > their jhanic states, realized the fruits of arahataship. V. Anada attained > supernormal power only after he had reached arahatship. > > 3) We should read the 9 obstacles of developing Jhana in Vism and see if a > life of a householder has these obstacles or not. If it does, how do we > expect to achieve jhana attainment? Reaching upacara samathi requires quite > a bit of efforts to retain the object, even when not sitting. What happens > when one runs into objects of sense-desire that disturbs that object? > > 4) I speculate that reaching jhana (not thru realization of the noble path) > is virtually impossible for a *married* house-holder, but possible, albeit > difficult, for householders who are not. > > kom 24427 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, Given Vism. XIV, 1-7, I think we can say a concept is a dhamma that doesn't arise or cease. [We have to take nibbana as a special case] The intention here seems to be a convention. Some concepts have real referents, some don't. It isn't clear to me why the distinction between concept and reality is necessary but I think Vism. XIV, 7 and its commentary establishes that distinction. It also isn't clear what knowledge distinguishes between concept and reality. We might ask what is it about a bicycle that is a reality and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a real referent and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a nonexistent referent. The answers seem to be what is impermanent, what points to something that is impermanent, and what assumes permanence. Also, a bicycle isn't necessarily just a group of rupas. It could also be associated feelings, identities (sanna), and valuations (like, dislike, bewilderment). It would seem that sorting out concept and reality is a key issue, but whose job is it? Larry --------------------- Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi all, Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states? The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. Larry ============================== Howard: Here's a reply from this non-abhidhammika: It depends on what one means by 'concept'. To me, one sense of 'concept' is that of a *thought* which sums up a mentally accumulated collection of paramattha dhammas, and that thought, *as* a thought, is, as far as I'm concerned, a direct element of experience, a paramattha dhamma, and it can be known by wisdom as impermanent, insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying. Moreover, it can be known with wisdom that it is empty in the sense of not pointing to the apparent "thing" that it seems to point to, there being no such thing, that alleged thing being "concept-only". With metta, Howard 24428 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Larry: Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Have you found the level of conversation to be somewhat higher than ususal?? Larry: Yes! Plus these discussions have been remarkably clear and calm. Larry 24429 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, No, here you are wrong. Everybody writes in his own way, even if the contents are similar, therefore, interesting to read. We like to hear you too!! Do not compare yourself with others :-) :-) How is our good friend Dharam? Kindest regards also from Lodewijk. Nina. op 20-08-2003 11:00 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukin@k...: > I discover later that many of the > reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. > Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more > deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some > of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). 24430 From: Andrew Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: introduction Hej Elias! Valkommen till DSG. I am an Australian of Swedish ancestry and speak a bit of your language. We have all sorts of people on this list, as you can see. It's a while since I was 18 years old, but you seem to have had a very eventful life so far. Good and bad things have happened to you but all of them can be useful in developing panna (visdom). I am pleased that you are so keen to study the Buddhadhamma and I wish you well. Have you thought about whether language will be a difficulty for you? Will you have to study the Dhamma through English? Or are there good translations into Swedish? Maybe you want to study Pali (a good idea for a monk!)? I have found that the Buddha's teachings are very deep and I have thought about them for many years. My understanding changes. So don't be in a hurry, my friend. Ha det bra! Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "elias broman" wrote: > hello > > > > My name is Elias, I'm 18 years old and live in Sweden. I have one year left > in school, > i wish to become a monk in Sri Lanka, so after school i will trie to leave > sweden really soon, > so i will become a monk at a low age and hopefuly stay as one the rest of > the life. > > I really wished i were born as a monk, to late now though, > my mother do not like the idea that i wish to become a monk, but she accept > it and allow it, > a great mother. > > As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, > i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct. > > Before i become a buddhist i were the opposite, > i studied astral projection, that's soul-walking, or > out-of-body-experiences. > > As a young kid i used to play a lot of fantasie games, i really were into > fantasies, > as we can relate to sankhara. karmatic formations. > > Later at young age i did think about death and life, > 'what's the point of living if there's only a flow to follow?' > > Later i get into a really big depression, tried drugs, and got a psycologic. > It were very intresting for me, how the mind had seemed to change the > envorinment > to something negative. > > that's for short. Also i'm absolutly sure i've meeted people for past lives, > as probebly many of you have, we do it all day, don't we? > But for some we can recognize it more easily, we become very bounded to > them. > > As many say "the right partner", because it 'clicks', just a click and they > fall in love, > look, style, way of life, way of thinking, do not interfere their love. > thiswould be because they recognize theirself from some past life, therefore > as buddha said, > 'recognizion leads to attachment'. > > As often, this things as style, way of living etc to have a bigger part > later in the relationship, > and it may live or not live anymore, the relationship. > > * as swedish, i speak and write swedish language, not english. so there is > some typos. > > Many people are very intrested in ghosts, past lives, or the future, or > universal questions. > but i say to you all, try to care about the present, it will give much more > happinies. > Ofcurse you can sitt down, take a reflection break. > > that's what i call it, reflection break. > > But try to live in the present, because... > > thoughts are not true... > > Elias > 24431 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Robert and All friends, What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:56 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Eagle, Things aren't so bad. We have been born countless times in the lower realms but we have also accumulated much merit so that now we can hear Dhamma and be human. The bodhisatta has to go through much difficulties as these are the grindstone against which the parami are sharpened. As disciples we have it easier. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven". And for those born in heaven who have Dhamma insight: Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER(1) Blessings ""BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.""" ---------------------- EAGLE : How do we have to do now, to make sure that in the next rebirth we won't forget dhamma at least in our next body's unconscious mind. What is the meaning of 'Norm' in the above passage ? is that a nation Norm or a local norm or a Buddhist norm ? Thanks for your effort to erase my doubt. Thanks, Eagle 24432 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 12:18:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Howard, Given Vism. XIV, 1-7, I think we can say a concept is a dhamma that doesn't arise or cease. [We have to take nibbana as a special case] -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas arise and cease, and IF Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say otherwise, then they are in error. I have always considered concepts to be *thoughts*, and thoughts, like all other conditioned dhammas arise and cease. (Also, with regard to *referents* of concepts, trees for example, ultimately they don't arise and cease, because ultimately there are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally and derivatively, they most certainly do arise and cease. More about this later.) ------------------------------------------------------- The intention here seems to be a convention. Some concepts have real referents, some don't. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Concepts may have paramattha dhammas as referents. Those are the only concepts that have real referents in the fullest sense. But even those concepts apprehend their objects indirectly, as concepts *of* one thing or another. Included here are concepts of hardness, concepts of sounds, etc. But the hardness as it is felt and the sounds as they are heard are *directly* experienced, and therein lies the distinction between conceptual and direct knowing, even of actualities. Now other concepts, still well grounded ones, are mind-compounded thoughts which do not reference actualities (a tree, for example, is not an actuality), but do sum up collections of actualities that are truly interrelated (the tree concept and tree percepts do not reference any things, but they do correspond to extraordinarily complex structurally and dynamically interrelated dynamic conglomerates of paramattha dhammas). This class of concepts serves to enable the grasping by worldlings of the relational nature of the world, wheras pa~n~na is the primary means that arahants employ for such understanding. The remaining class of concepts are those that are not well grounded and are created from whole cloth. ---------------------------------------------------------------- It isn't clear to me why the distinction between concept and reality is necessary but I think Vism. XIV, 7 and its commentary establishes that distinction. It also isn't clear what knowledge distinguishes between concept and reality. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope that what I wrote above contributes some helpful ideas in this regard. ----------------------------------------------------------------- We might ask what is it about a bicycle that is a reality and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a real referent and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a nonexistent referent. The answers seem to be what is impermanent, what points to something that is impermanent, and what assumes permanence. Also, a bicycle isn't necessarily just a group of rupas. It could also be associated feelings, identities (sanna), and valuations (like, dislike, bewilderment). It would seem that sorting out concept and reality is a key issue, but whose job is it? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why worry about it much? Even the only-conventionally-existent referents of (well grounded) concepts such as trees, people, houses, cars, and bicycles are *conventionally* and *derivatively* anicca, dukkha, and anatta. They arise and cease conventionally and derivatively in the sense that the underlying interrelated actualities do so, and seeing the tilakkhana operative at the level of conventional objects supports our learning to relax our hold on these conventional entities. Further, seeing their *ultimate* emptiness due to their being non-existent referents of mental constructs superimposed on complexes of interrelated dhammas is a deeper and more critical process for relaxing our hold on them. When we can see through concepts to the underlying actualities and *then* directly see, by wisdom, the tilakkhana and dependent origination operative at that ultimate, microscopic, level of reality, then we are really on our way. But we don't have to be perfect about this. It's all good. The practice proceeds at multiple levels. We do the best we can. This is my take on the matter. ---------------------------------------------------------- Larry ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24433 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 12:21:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Larry: Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Have you found the level of conversation to be somewhat higher than ususal?? Larry: Yes! Plus these discussions have been remarkably clear and calm. Larry =============================== ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24434 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Mike, > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 7:27 PM > > > Hi Kom, > > I think I didn't ask my question very well. Do you think it's possible to > attain not jhaana (obviously possible I think), but enlightenment > by way of > jhaana, as a layperson? Do you think this is supported by the tipitaka? > > mike That I have not heard either way, although I don't see why not, with enough accumulation. I will write to A. Supee to ask him if he has a story... kom 24435 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Warning: a bit technical and Pali filled in spite of attempted translations. Hi Mike & All, This is an interesting thread. Please take all my comments here as somewhat speculative and welcoming of any corrections. Also I’m trying to follow your example here with Pali spelling, but I’m sure there are lots of errors. --- "m. nease" wrote: S:> > sukkha-vedanaa, doesn't mean it has to be taken for pleasurable or > 'subha' > > (with or without wrong view) by following akusala javana cittas in the > > sense door and mind door processes. > M:> Do you mean that the (immediately) following javanas won't necessarily > be > attended by sukha-vedanaa? .... Strictly speaking I think sukha-vedanaa only accompanies bodily experience (kaaya vi~n~naa.na). The following javana cittas may be kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome) and accompanied by somanassa or domanassa (happy or unhappy feeling). ..... M:>The (tentative) conclusion I came to this > morning was this: I think Khun Sujin was not using 'object of pleasure'in the sense of aaramma.na, but in the sense of the concept that's formed by > sa~n~naa after many, many processess (still an infinitessimally brief time) through however many doors. That is, the concept of visible form that I take as an 'object of pleasure'--a pretty girl, say--is not > ruupaaramma.na.m--many countless of which have already arisen and fallen away before the 'girl' appears. ..... S: I think it refers to both - the aaramma.na(object) and the later concept. Sa~n~na and citta vipallaasa(perversions of perception and consciousness) arise with all akusala cittas, as I understand. Whenever the sa~n~na and citta are not wholesome, they are ‘perverted’. This is why only the anaagaamii (3rd stage of enlightenment) with no more attachment to sense objects has no more citta and sa~n~na vipallaasa with regard to taking the asubha (foul) for subha (beautiful) and why the eradication of the perversions depend on the very refined insight into the characteristics of realities arising in the sense doors. Without the understanding of impermanence and anatta, there is bound to be the taking of ruupa (physical phenomena) as subha. This is what I understand when you write:“Khun Sujin says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too short to be the object of pleasure.” ..... M: > So insight is not into 'the girl' but into the actual ruupaaramma.na.m. which is asubha because it is simply not pleasant (rather than 'unpleasant', 'ugly' or 'foul' in this context, I think)--it not only is too brief, it also doesn't make up enough of the visual field even to make up a significant part of the 'pretty girl' that thinking later takes as the 'object of pleasure'. It's just one (or one process of) citta and whatever vedanaa arose with it isn't necessarily > relevant to the feeling that arises later with regard to the 'girl'. > > Is this more or less what you were saying above? .... S: Insight is into the ruupaaramma.na.m as you explain above. However, I think the taking as ‘object of pleasure’ can (and usually does) arise immediately in the same sense door process or immediately following mind door process, even though there is no idea of ‘girl’ for a good many processes as we know. Attachment can arise immediately on account of the visible object when there is no pa~n~na which understands its nature at the time. Hence, the references to ‘guarding the sense doors’ and the power of developed insight to really know the true characteristics as they appear. As you’ll recall, we had some discussions on the Muulapariyaaya Sutta ages ago and on the meaning of ma~n~nanaa (conceiving). From the useful translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta with its commentary and subcommentaries, published by BPS under the title 'The Discourse on the Root of Existence': On p.38 we read about the bases (referring to the khandhas) not fully understood by the worldling (puthujjanao apari~n~naatavatthuko) “and the conceiving (ma~n~nanaa) that is the root of all the things intended here is itself rooted in lack of full understanding (apari~n`naamuulikaa)...” Later (p.39) it says “conceiving also occurs in regard to the characteristic earth which appears through the body-door and elsewhere.” As I understand, ma~n~nanaa thus arises even in the sense door process and cannot be equated with conceiving or conceptualising. On p.40, we read “having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling afterwards conceives it, i.e. construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, which are called “conceivings” (aparabhaage thaamappattehi ta.nhaamaanadi.t.thi papa~ncehi idha ma~n~nanaanaamena vuttehi ma~n~nati kappeti vikappeti). This accords with the statement: “Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception” (sa~n~naanidaanaa hi papa~ncasa.nkhaa)...... “He apprehends it... contrary (to reality)”: like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality - craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful....” S: In other words, at each moment of attachment to sense objects (including in the immediate processes of cittas, long before the ‘pretty girl’), there is the “craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful”, as I understand. Hence, we get an idea of the subtlest degrees of craving that have to be known. Later we read that the wordling conceives and delights in this way (“Why does he conceive and delight in the earth?”) because “it has not been fully understood by him”. ““Full understanding of the known” is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaaabhuumi).”* B.Bodhi discusses the meaning of ma~n~naana and papa~nca in his introduction and Robert wrote about it in this post I just managed to find: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2064 ..... M: > Right--again, though, the clinging to the plain visible object (color) > is > different from the later clinging to the concept. By the way, since one > definition of 'subha' is 'beauty', I wonder if 'not beautiful' would be > a > better translation of 'asubha' in this context? .... S: Perhaps the degree of clinging is quite different and the object too, but still ‘perverted’ clinging, even without being accompanied by ditthi vipallaasa. I know Jon has also suggested the same by way of translation in this context. He may have raised it on the tapes you’re listening to. I’m not sure, even after looking at various translations and dictionaries and it may be significant. Nina or others may have an idea. ~Naa.namoli translates asubha as ‘foul (ugly)’ under Class. of Aggregates,155, Dispeller of Delusion: “And in particular, one who sees internal materiality a foul (ugly) fully understands nutriment consisting of material food, he abandons the perversion of [perceiving] beauty in the foul (ugly), he crosses the flood of sense desire, he is loosed from the bond of sense desire, he becomes canker-free as regards the canker of sense desire, he breaks the bodily tie of covetousness, he does not cling by the clinging to sense desire.” ..... M: > Maybe so--useful, at least, to be reminded of 'asubha' while painting a > beautiful naked girl...! ..... S: I remember in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta we read about the understanding of the foul, good friendship and suitable talk, along with moderate eating and restraint of the sense doors for abandoning lust. I wonder if the beautiful naked girl is listening to the tape as well!!?? From the Maharahulavada sutta: “asubha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of foulness, yo raago so pahiiyissati. that which is attachment will be abandoned...” (In this context, I think Nina somewhere wrote that asubha refers to the corpse meditation of at least access concentration level and probably in the Satipatthana Sutta reference as well. So I’m not sure how relevant these are and whether the translation should be the same.) Look forward to any further comments or reflections on this difficult topic. Metta, Sarah ====== *We read (p46) that ‘He who fully understands the earth understands it by the three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known (~naataparin~n~na), the full understanding of scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa), and the full understanding of abandoning (pahaanapari~n~naa)............Or, alternatively, the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupa vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.’ ..... 24436 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Dear Larry: > Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what > is the difference > between the consciousness of hardness and the > understanding of hardness? > Azita? -------------------------------------------------------- I can tell you about some personal experiences about the issue "Conscience versus understanding". I ever read at Plato that numbers are ideas. In all his works the same concept is postulate breathlessly on and on. Very good indeed! Number are ideas! That´s only a conscience of the concept: I´ve read at Plato that number are ideas, that seemed reasonable for me and after that I begun to read other book... But one day, reading as usual, I was with my TV tuned at MTV and the own concept knocked on my head abruptly (as a tiny bulb lamp shining over a comics character´s head...): Numbers ARE ideas !!!! Suddenly I perceived that the book that I was reading, the Guns´n´Roses video Clip, the MTV and so on are grounded basically on ideas and, by consequence, by numbers! Now I understand that numbers are ideas. This sounds similar to St. Augustine´s experience: he was meditatiting at his house´s veranda when a child playing outside begun to sing "Tomme et legge...Tomme et legge...". Augustine stood up and looked down on his open Bible at certain passage of the St.Paul´s Epistole to Romans that illuminated his understanding at that occasion. At a personal opinion, conscience and understanding belong to different mind modes of expression. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24437 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim: Jim: "I'm sorry for not being of much help in your > Pali translation > work (including MN 62) with corrections and > comments. This is largely > due to a lack of time and my struggle to keep the > internet from > overwhelming me. With the Vism subco. I don't > believe you're under any > obligation or pressure to translate and post these > passages from this > difficult work, much of which is over my head too." -------------------------------------------------- Gosh !!!!!! Visuddhimagga has got VERY DIFFICULT passages to translate!!!!!!!! I barely can handle a candle for it... Metta (and good luck!) Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24438 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Hi Manu (& Sukin), --- Manu Wadhwani wrote: > I joined this group some time back and have been following the > discussions > with considerable interest and awe. Although many of the things being > said > go over my head, it strengthens my resolve to carry on the study of > Dhamma > further. Opportunity to hear (and learn) Dhamma is one of the most > precious things and I am sincerely grateful to all the members of this > group > for being given this opportunity. .... This is a great introduction, Manu. I think much of what is said is over most our heads. Certainly there is much that is over mine. Like you say, if it encourages us to study, consider and develop more panna (wisdom) then it is most worthwhle. Of course we also think that it’s a precious opportunity to share and hear Dhamma. This is the purpose of the group and why we try to encourage everyone to contribute on list;-) If there are any topics or posts you’d like clarification on, please ask - you‘d do us all a favour and no questions are too basic. .... > My name is Manu Wadhwani. I have been living in Laos for a long time. .... Interesting and even more so that you’ve met Sukin before. (Sukin, I remember you telling me about a chance meeting and discussion some time back, I wonder if it was with Manu? Where are you from originally? Next time, remember to take a pic of the two of you in your shop;-)) ..... > I > started meditation and reading about Dhamma about 6 years ago. > > My study of Dhamma, like all new comers I would guess, is reading all > that I > can lay my hands on. I am not sure if that is the best approach. Is > there > any prescribed way of studying Dhamma? .... Like Sukin, my reading and study has always been very unsystematic - the odd page here and there while I get ready for students or am waiting for Jon. I may have quite a lot of texts, but then we’ve been collecting them over 30years. Many were second-hand or given to one of us. I’d recommend the Bhikkhu Bodhi sutta translations, any of Nina’s books or other texts which can be found on Robert K’s websites: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.vipassana.info/ If you have a chance to meet up with Sukin again, I’d recommend anything he recommends;-)Perhaps he can also take you to join a discussion with A.Sujin and perhaps you can join some of us in Bkk when we visit at the end of October. Christine, who like RobK, tends to be most systematic in her reading, sent some of her recommendations in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23060 .... >It would be very interesting to > hear > from the members of this group about how they have structured their > study > because all seem so well organized, quoting and pointing to the > references > on any given topic immediately. .... I think that after you’ve been here a while, you’ll be doing the same....The reading and writing here encourages me to look up references when I have a moment. .... > Since many of the members are familiar with Thailand, can anyone suggest > where I can buy English translations of the Canon in Bangkok or Chiang > Mai? .... As I know, Sukin will take good care of you when you visit. Do you also speak Thai, I wonder? Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, I’m arranging to send Manu some MP3s from the Foundation(English), but will leave you to give him books when he visits. ====================== 24439 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Eddie: Eddie: "Thanks for the advise. My first response seemed not > posted for some reason beyond my comprehension. Here > is 2nd." ------------------------------------------------- No problem, Eddie! The posts are running as usual! ----------------------------------------------------- Eddie: "I myself have done some analytical study (not > religiously & definitely not fanatically but > realistically & rationally) of my great Buddhism > especially Buddha's teachings. I did it more like a > scientific approach. Science even at this stage is > but > a micro-set (as compared to sub-set or super-set) of > Buddha's wisdom & teachings." --------------------------------------------------- Some remarks: The teachings of Buddha have not the direct intention to be scientifical or otherwise - they are a clear and clarifying exposition of "Dhamma": that´s the reason I am not a fan of Fritioj Capra´s "Tao of Physics" - "Wonderful! The Quantum realms of matter behaves like a Mahayana Sutta! Excellent!", but... who will make the Math calculations ? They seem to be very hard and apparently Mr. Capra won´t do it for you! Science and Maths belong to the same substratum of our minds that can attain and understand Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. I don´t see much more points of contact between them beyond these. Eddie...do you like Iron Maiden ? "Eddie" is the mascot of the band! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Eddie Lou > --- icaro franca wrote: > > Dear Eddie: > > > > Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion > at > > these question about Dhamma. > > First, you must get a clear definition about > > "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) > > Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic > > books: > > my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the > > Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the > > main > > concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be > afraid > > to stuff your precious head with all the > buddhistic > > "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so > > on: > > they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail > > or > > mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! > > Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! > > Nina´s > > exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the > excelent > > commentaries of all members will really make > growth > > your understanding on these matters. > > A burden ? Not at all !!!! > > > > Metta, Ícaro > > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24440 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hello Mike! Mike: "I think I didn't ask my question very well. Do you > think it's possible to > attain not jhaana (obviously possible I think), but > enlightenment by way of > jhaana, as a layperson? Do you think this is > supported by the tipitaka?" --------------------------------------------------- After years reading the theravada buddistic suttas, I made an opinion about this very harsh question about Jhanas and illumination: Buddha really doesn´t stress others about illumination - He states clearly at a great number of passages that cultivating the Jhanas and reaching arahantship are MUCH MORE important than achieve a mental state of illumination by Jhana, Vipassana or otherwise. Again, that´s a question about opposite views between the Historical Buddha - that reached illumination at a definite place, a definite time and perhaps by a definite way of practice - and the Eternal Buddha, or Dhamma (I am using a typical viewpoint of Lotus Sutra), that postulates that even the illumination is only a mental affair and that keeping yourself cultivating the Jhana is more vital for you and for the Dhamma. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24441 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] introduction Hi Elias, --- elias broman wrote: > hello > > i use @hotmail.com therefore i cannot reply to your messages, but i can > write a new topic/post. .... I think Jon is helping you with this. I hope you sort it out and at least keep writing new topics;-) It’s really great to read your intro. Very unusual and I really hope it works out well. Please keep discussing your plans and ideas with us. Let us know if there's anything we can help with. We have another member from Denmark who is your age - Anders. I just heard from him. He’s spending a few months in Asia now, staying in temples and so on. Which Theravada books or texts do you enjoy reading? perhaps you can elaborate further on this: E:> As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, > i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct. Elias, welcome again and please don’t worry about any grammar mistakes or typos. At least you have a good excuse which some of us don’t have. Thank you so much for sharing all the detail. I think you have a great mother too! Please, keep sharing and perhaps adding comments to any topics you find interesting here. Metta, Sarah p.s Do you or any other newbies have a pic to put in the album? http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst ====== 24442 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hello Larry! Larry: "Also, a bicycle isn't necessarily just a group of > rupas. It could also > be associated feelings, identities (sanna), and > valuations (like, > dislike, bewilderment). > > It would seem that sorting out concept and reality > is a key issue, but > whose job is it?" --------------------------------------------------- This can seem to be off-topic, but your quote about the bicycle as a group of rupas makes me remember a passage of Abhidhamma that I am particularly reading at this moment (curiously is not Dhammasangani´s, it´s the Patthanapali´s): the Aramana-Paccaya, or object-condition 2. Aramanapaccayoti rupayatanam cakkhuviññanadhatuya tamsampayutthakañañca dhammanam, etc... objects that form conscience and mental phenomena. Any object arising in mind is the conditionf of mind-conscience: cakkhuviññana, manoviññana,etc, Dhammanam. The bicycle as a mind object can be any bicycle at the past, present or future, linked or not with vedana, sanna, valuations and so on. However, a bicycle at reality could be assigned as a hetupaccaya ,or root-condition, for your bicycle as a mind-object - Aramanapaccaya. Like a 3D object and its image at two dimensions. Corrections are welcome. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Larry > --------------------- > > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic > of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > Hi all, > Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this > as understanding has > the characteristic of penetrating the individual > characteristics of > states? > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding > can't understand > concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. > Larry > ============================== > Howard: Here's a reply from this > non-abhidhammika: It depends on what one means by > 'concept'. To me, one > sense of 'concept' is that of a *thought* which sums > up a mentally > accumulated collection of paramattha dhammas, and > that thought, *as* a > thought, is, as far as I'm concerned, a direct > element of experience, a > paramattha dhamma, and it can be known by wisdom as > impermanent, > insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying. > Moreover, it can be known > with wisdom that it is empty in the sense of not > pointing to the > apparent "thing" that it seems to point to, there > being no such thing, > that alleged thing being "concept-only". > With metta, > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24443 From: june_tg Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:29am Subject: food craving help hi i am new here and i am not sure if this is appropriate for this group. apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case please direct me to the right place if you know where i should go i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. and it has been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting cravings, especially at night and they are pretty bad, i really feel like i am going to give in any day now. does anyone know how to stop the food cravings? i have tried drinking stuff, but they are so unsatifactory and the urge is so strong, i don't want to give in, but i don't know how to control this. sometimes i am not even hungry i just want to eat. i have also tried distracting myself and it works on occasions but every time i am done distracting myself, i find the urge is still there. has anyone gone through this and made it through all the way quite happily? thanks for any suggestions/help regards june 24444 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: food craving help --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "june_tg" wrote: > hi > > i am new here and i am not sure if this is appropriate for this group. > apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case please direct me to > the right place if you know where i should go > > i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to > keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. and it has > been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting cravings, Hi June, I just popped in, since I barely have anytime nowadays, and I read your delightful e-mail! Congratulations on making the decision to lessen your intake of food, in this day and age that is a very difficult decision to make. I am assuming that you are wanting to take the bhikkhu's (monk's) precepts of only eating one meal a day. That is a very admirable decision that will have numerous benefits for you, I wish you well. I think that you want to hear from someone who has done the same; unfortunately, I am currently not that person. However, I have observed the meal precept during long retreats…so I have some words of advice. First, don't start out with only one meal, perhaps you could have breakfast and lunch and then skip dinner…until you feel well enough to have the only one meal. There is no reason to torture yourself. Second, make sure that the one meal that you have is nutritionally balanced. Since your name is June and your writing is very American I am going to assume that you are American. Sweetie, let me tell you, American cuisine is not nutritionally balanced! ;-) I have found that Asian cuisine, with its mix of meat, vegetables, and grains is a more satisfying meal to have and will keep your hunger away longer. But what you must also realize is that your stomach needs to get smaller (and I mean your actual stomach…that organ) before your cravings for food will go away. Take it slow and make a gradual lessening in food until that is comfortable. Believe it or not anorexics don't feel hunger because they have let their stomachs shrink to the size of a walnut! ;-). Of course I don't recommend that you follow suit. Take it easy and don't try to put so much on your plate. Grandiose vows of food restrictions and meditation will only deflate your motivation and resolve in the end. You are on the right track, keep with it. Metta, James Ps. Yes, your e-mail is totally out-of-place in this group, but so what. So am I. ;-) 24445 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard! > Howard:" As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas > arise and cease, and IF > Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say otherwise, then they > are in error. I have always > considered concepts to be *thoughts*, and thoughts, > like all other > conditioned dhammas arise and cease. (Also, with > regard to *referents* of concepts, > trees for example, ultimately they don't arise and > cease, because ultimately there > are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally > and derivatively, they most > certainly do arise and cease. More about this > later.)" > ----------------------------------------------------- Uprooted Upasaka, curiously your quote - and the further - are in total concordance with the Patthanapali (at least the initial part I´ve read just for now), namely, the definition of Aramanapaccaya, or object-condition. A mind objects as a bicycle, or a tree, a cabbage, etc, has got not only rupa-similarity with the real thing, but cakkhu-viññana,mano-viññana, etc, linked or not with sanna, vedana, evaluations and so on. So, the real thing, at my opinion, is the hetupaccaya, or root condition, of these aramanapaccaya, that has the "sameness" in rupa, viññana, dhamma, etc, with similar objects of the same class. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24446 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:46am Subject: the way of finding out wouldn't it be great if people from all religion had a meeting and said. "i belive in jesus, that he lived, and that there is a god"... "but i do not know if it's true" , ... "I belive in the teachings of the buddhas, and that gotama buddha did exist"... "but i do not know if it's true"" - Ex. Asume you were to reflect over vinnana~rupa-nama. one can think "wouldn't that mean that nama is already conected to/or are rupa, before vinnana enters?" when we do reflect, we may find principles, ways, that might be correct, that might to seem ok, right. but we still ahve to say "but i do not know if it's true". untill we discover it for ourself. - Today i listened to a school-teacher and a group of pupils, and suddenly subject is changed and they begin to talk about death, and the school-teachers says "no one knows about death, no one who's alive does it". this dear dhamma freinds, we have an oppertunity to take a reflect break over! Whatever we might reflect out, this way, that way etc. wes till cannot know if it's true, untill we discover it ourself. some things are easier to find out to be true, ex the first two noble truths. but some thigns are much harder, ex rebirth. as for books, iv'e read much mahayana also, the heart sutra is very nice reading to reflect over. but i do follow the theravada 'tradition', i do follow the teachings of the buddhas, whatever name you give it, i just follow it, not the name it's given. if we say that other sects of buddhism is wrong, we are wrong. /elias >As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, >i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct Elias 24447 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: food craving help Hi James! June: " hi > > > > i am new here and i am not sure if this is > appropriate for this > group. > > apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case > please direct me to > > the right place if you know where i should go > > > > i have been trying to keep the precept about food, > i am planning to > > keep it forever in this lifetime and practice > meditation. and it > has > > been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting > cravings, > > > Hi June, > > I just popped in, since I barely have anytime > nowadays, and I read > your delightful e-mail! Congratulations on making > the decision to > lessen your intake of food, in this day and age that > is a very > difficult decision to make." ----------------------------------------------------- Wow James! I could use such advices for myself!!!!!!! June... perhaps you must take a deep breath, keep your mind calm and try to say something to yourself like "I´m not hungry... I´m not hungry... I´m not hungry..."...heheheh...just kiddin´! But speaking seriously, I keep myself at a strict diet because I must to. Taking examinations on Air Force make me take the hard decision to lost weight or be cut off. So, I cutted off entirely of my life chocolates, candies, ice-cream, noodles, pies, bread only a loaf at breakfast and so on. I´ve succedded not only to get less weight as to pass with honours at the examination! You must put in your mind a stainless decision to carry on your vows bravely. Mettaya, Ícaro I am assuming that you > are wanting to > take the bhikkhu's (monk's) precepts of only eating > one meal a day. > That is a very admirable decision that will have > numerous benefits > for you, I wish you well. I think that you want to > hear from someone > who has done the same; unfortunately, I am currently > not that > person. However, I have observed the meal precept > during long > retreats…so I have some words of advice. > > First, don't start out with only one meal, perhaps > you could have > breakfast and lunch and then skip dinner…until you > feel well enough > to have the only one meal. There is no reason to > torture yourself. > Second, make sure that the one meal that you have is > nutritionally > balanced. Since your name is June and your writing > is very American > I am going to assume that you are American. > Sweetie, let me tell > you, American cuisine is not nutritionally balanced! > ;-) I have > found that Asian cuisine, with its mix of meat, > vegetables, and > grains is a more satisfying meal to have and will > keep your hunger > away longer. But what you must also realize is that > your stomach > needs to get smaller (and I mean your actual > stomach…that organ) > before your cravings for food will go away. Take it > slow and make a > gradual lessening in food until that is comfortable. > Believe it or > not anorexics don't feel hunger because they have > let their stomachs > shrink to the size of a walnut! ;-). Of course I > don't recommend > that you follow suit. > > Take it easy and don't try to put so much on your > plate. Grandiose > vows of food restrictions and meditation will only > deflate your > motivation and resolve in the end. You are on the > right track, keep > with it. > > Metta, James > Ps. Yes, your e-mail is totally out-of-place in > this group, but so > what. So am I. ;-) > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24448 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] food craving help Hi, June - In a message dated 8/21/03 6:38:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, june_tg@y... writes: hi i am new here and i am not sure if this is appropriate for this group. apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case please direct me to the right place if you know where i should go i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. and it has been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting cravings, especially at night and they are pretty bad, i really feel like i am going to give in any day now. does anyone know how to stop the food cravings? i have tried drinking stuff, but they are so unsatifactory and the urge is so strong, i don't want to give in, but i don't know how to control this. sometimes i am not even hungry i just want to eat. i have also tried distracting myself and it works on occasions but every time i am done distracting myself, i find the urge is still there. has anyone gone through this and made it through all the way quite happily? thanks for any suggestions/help regards june ============================= I'd just like to point out a couple matters in this regard. One of these is that monks do allow themselves some food in the evenings - fruit juice/milk I believe; I have even directly seen monks consuming ice cream in the evening (as the alleged equivalent of ghee). Another point is that what constitutes "midday" is an important issue. Typically, monks arise at 4:00 a.m. and retire around 10:00 pm. Thus, noon comes 8 hrs after awakening and 10 ours before retiring. When do you arise? Six pm? Seven pm? Eight pm? Later? You should determine, I think, when *your* midday comes. BTW, do you also abstain from alcohol? I ask that not to tell you what to do at all, but only to point out that that is a more fundamental, and clearly more important, training rule than abstaining from "late" food. The prohibition on eating past midday for monks, a prohibition which I observed for a while, BTW, and which I still observe in a greatly modified way (I typically allow myself only light snacks in the evening), is useful in some ways but doesn't seem to be one of major importance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24449 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > I'm sorry for not being of much help in your Pali translation > work (including MN 62) with corrections and comments. This is largely > due to a lack of time and my struggle to keep the internet from > overwhelming me. .... I don’t think you or anyone else should feel any need to apologise for dropping in or out of a thread anytime. We all have to balance time and commitments and also look after creaky elbows, eyes other health concerns as well. I think Nina’s idea of just adding ??? in her translation is a good one. Then if you, Suan, or anyone else with expertise has any idea they can help without any pressure, just if they feel like it. I know Nina certainly doesn’t wish for anyone to be struggling, but just likes to encourage good friends to contribute as we do. I’ve certainly been interested to read your Vism comments to date. ..... > Summer is fast coming to an end, and it will soon be time to start > splitting firewood again in preparation for a long Canadian winter. It > seems that the last several autumns have been a time for me to take a > vacation from the discussion lists to spend time by myself, and this > year will be no different. ..... As I was mentioning to Victor on another 'solitary' thread, we can see such very different accumulations and tendencies here. We all share much in common with our keen interest in the Dhamma and development of insight and yet we have such varied temperaments, just as the listeners of the Buddha had. As I quoted from the Migasaala Sutta, no need to judge. We can just appreciate the benefit of the teachings whatever our lifestyle, I think and so for others too. .... >For the first ten years, I lived here from > early spring to late fall with no electricity or telephone > and managed quite well without them, but for the last five years that > all changed with my getting hooked up to these services. Today, I > thought it would be good to experience life for 3 months withou any > telephone, internet, or radio contact with the outside world. So I may > be disconnecting my phone and internet services for three months > starting sometime next month and I'm also planning to go away soon for > a week. If I do disconnect, I hope to be back online again by year's > end. .... Let us know, Jim, so that like Icaro’s bootcamp, we have an idea when we’ll see you again. We’ll still be struggling on the same passages in Vism I’m sure and you can pick up where you left off anytime. I liked Howard’s example the other day of how intentions can change anytime. He determined he wasn’t continuing a thread with Kom anymore and soon after was sending another detailed message on it. In any case, we’ll miss your contributions but look forward to your return. You mentioned your idea before to me of an organisation to support solitary dwelling. If you’d like to raise it here to determine any interest or support, then I’m sure others would be happy to hear more. I’m wondering also if the idea is related to how you perceive bhavana (mental development)in your life, Jim. Your comments on this thread would be interesting.(Pls only respond to this post if you’d care to). With metta and best wishes for your fall arrangements, however they work out. Sarah ======= 24450 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] food craving help Hi June, ----- Original Message ----- From: june_tg To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:29 AM Subject: [dsg] food craving help > i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to > keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. Refraining from eating after noon (is this the precept you mean?) took me about three weeks to get used too. At first I was so hungry in the morning that I tended to stuff myself at meals. I eventually found that the more I ate in the morning, the hungrier I was the next morning. By eating moderately I gradually became quite content and even grew to enjoy being empty at night and also awoke feeling much more alert and so on. When keeping precepts, by the way, I think it's important to understand siilabbataparaamaasa--clinging to rules and rituals. This has the potential of making the keeping of precepts a hindrance rather than an aid to understanding. Good luck with 'contentment with little'! mike 24451 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Sarah, Thanks for the good and complicated response--hope it didn't tax your arms too much. Just briefly, on reflection I think you're right--my 'aaramma.na vs. concept' construction was mistaken. A little more below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan > Strictly speaking I think sukha-vedanaa only accompanies bodily experience > (kaaya vi~n~naa.na). The following javana cittas may be kusala (wholesome) > or akusala (unwholesome) and accompanied by somanassa or domanassa (happy > or unhappy feeling). I'd forgotten about this. I think my problem is not understanding the details of vi~n~naa.na and javana. > S: I think it refers to both - the aaramma.na(object) and the later > concept. Right-- > Sa~n~na and citta vipallaasa(perversions of perception and consciousness) > arise with all akusala cittas, as I understand. Whenever the sa~n~na and > citta are not wholesome, they are 'perverted'. I guess so--I've been thinking of vipallaasa as depending on sukha-vedanaa rather than on somanassa (in the case of mistaking asubha for subha). This obviously couldn't be the case for any vi~n~naa.na other than kaya. > Without the understanding of > impermanence and anatta, there is bound to be the taking of ruupa > (physical phenomena) as subha. But only if the following javanas are accompanied by somanassa? Otherwise, why would ruupa seem subha? > This is what I understand when you > write:"Khun Sujin says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha > because it is too short to be the object of pleasure." Yes, I think you're right now. > ...I > think the taking as 'object of pleasure' can (and usually does) arise > immediately in the same sense door process or immediately following mind > door process, even though there is no idea of 'girl' for a good many > processes as we know. This certainly does seem to accord with the texts--I just don't really get it yet. Why should a cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na take the object as 'object of pleasure' if it's unaccompanied by sukha-vedanaa? And why would the following javanas be accompanied by somanassa if the object isn't inherently pleasant? Just anusaya? > Attachment can arise immediately on account of the > visible object when there is no pa~n~na which understands its nature at > the time. Hence, the references to 'guarding the sense doors' and the > power of developed insight to really know the true characteristics as they > appear. > > As you'll recall, we had some discussions on the Muulapariyaaya Sutta ages > ago and on the meaning of ma~n~nanaa (conceiving). I think I missed that thread. I lent my copy to a physicist friend (I thought it might appeal). I'll get it back and have another look. > As I understand, ma~n~nanaa thus arises even in the sense door process and > cannot be equated with conceiving or conceptualising. Yes, you've pretty well convinced me, I just don't understand it yet. > On p.40, we read > "having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling > afterwards conceives it, i.e. construes or discriminates it, through the > strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, > which are called "conceivings" (aparabhaage thaamappattehi > ta.nhaamaanadi.t.thi papa~ncehi idha ma~n~nanaanaamena vuttehi ma~n~nati > kappeti vikappeti). This accords with the statement: "Concepts due to > proliferation are grounded upon perception" (sa~n~naanidaanaa hi > papa~ncasa.nkhaa)...... > > "He apprehends it... contrary (to reality)": like the conceiving of > views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things > contrary to reality - craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful...." > > S: In other words, at each moment of attachment to sense objects > (including in the immediate processes of cittas, long before the 'pretty > girl'), there is the "craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful", as > I understand. Hence, we get an idea of the subtlest degrees of craving > that have to be known. Seems pretty clear--thanks for all the effort and the careful documentation. > I wonder if the beautiful naked girl is listening to the tape as well!!?? No, her work is over for the time being and I'm working alone (except for phantoms of Kaeng Kajan). I'm afraid she wouldn't have been interested or got much out of it--she's an anthropologist with a particular interest in primates (hence her willingness to pose for me, maybe...!). > (In this context, I think Nina somewhere wrote that asubha refers to the > corpse meditation of at least access concentration level and probably in > the Satipatthana Sutta reference as well. So I'm not sure how relevant > these are and whether the translation should be the same.) Yes, I think I remember this. Asubha can be confused (and confusing) in more ways than one (for me anyway). Thanks again for all the hard work, Sarah. mike 24452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala, akusala, abyaakataa Dear Kenneth Ong, op 20-08-2003 18:57 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > I more concern are these indetermine citta play a role. It is weird > that it is left not explain. N: I understand your feelings. Actually, when feelings are classified as threefold we have: pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, feeling that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. In the same way you could ask: why neutral feeling? Ven. Nyanatiloka states: N: In the context of Pali the word kamma should be used, not karma. Also: he omits rupa and nibbana, which are also abyaakataa. Rupa does not know anything, how could it be kusala or akusala? Nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma, sankhata dhamma, is neither kusala nor akusala, thus it is abyaakataa. You find it weird, but the Buddha passed on the nucleus of the Abhidhamma to Sariputta from whom originated the textual order. I repeat from an old post: There are many classifications of realities, and as we read: < the Elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law (Dhamma).> The classifications make it easier to remember the Dhamma. Feelings can be classified as threefold, fivefold, sixfold, thirtysix and as hundred and eight. Cittas are classified in many ways, so are rupas. But it is very impressive that all paramattha dhammas can be classified as just these three:kusala, akusala, abyaakataa. Nothing is left out. Here are all sabhaava dhammas, dhammas with their own distinct nature, all that is neyya, that is to be understood. Nina. 24453 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your corrections. I shall explain to Larry to put them in. I respect your decision, I understand. Lodewijk sympathizes warmly with you that you want to cut off telephone and radio, news is so bad. When in Dec may I write to you again? I ask this, because Yong Peng has his examinations in Nov. and only in Dec he may start a new sutta. He mentioned Elephant's footprint, but I have to ask him again. I depend so much on you for my texts on line. From where do you download co and subco? Maybe difficult for me. Which day in Sept do you turn the lights off? I feel like an orphan, quite a blow to us and the Pali list. You are the most able and inspiring teacher I know, and I always appreciate your help. To whom else could I turn? And now no more Kaccayaana! I do not feel good about it that I may have many mistakes in Co Rahula. Nobody else can or will correct me on Pali list. Would you please, before going away, indicate to me where the mistakes are, so that I can correct those. Yong Peng wants to put my texts on his net and it would be better without coarse mistakes at least. I always check my text with the Thai as best as I am able to. Your departure will mean my cutting down on translation activities. Lodewijk says that this is favorable, that I do too much. Yes, the subco Vis is getting too heavy for me. I will not translate systematically anymore, but here and there select something. I was on 4, and then I noticed too: padam: word or coin, I had coin first, but then thought, it is a grammatical explanation, thus word. Then I looked at 5 and saw something about the Buddha's wisdom, could not resist and went on. I find it too captivating. I do many things I had not intention to do. I did not have the intention to do so much Pali, Co Rahula included. But now that I cut down on Pali I have more time to translate from Thai, the Dhamma Issues. Just one question on Saddaniti, at the end. I completed "Meanings of dhamma". The word : But Canadian winter starts really end Dec. but autumn is earlier now. Thank you very much and I hope you have a good hibernation; yes, you have it every year. The simple life, no fringes. Nina. op 21-08-2003 03:04 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: >With the Vism subco. I don't believe you're under any > obligation or pressure to translate and post these passages from this > difficult work... >. So I may > be disconnecting my phone and internet services for three months > starting sometime next month and I'm also planning to go away soon for > a week. If I do disconnect, I hope to be back online again by year's > end. 24454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 8. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:48:13 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 8. meanings of dhamma, no 8 no 8. The Saddaniti mentions further on more meanings of dhamma. some of them have been classified already and some of them not yet: N: words: payoga (m): means, undertaking, practice. di.t.tha: seen, understood. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as scriptures: Words: tathaa: thus. idha: here. pariyaapu.naati: to master, learn thoroughly. dissati: it seems, appears. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as sacca, truth: <"Di.t.thadhammo pattadhammo"ti-aadiisu sacce. In such passages as ³The dhamma that is understood, the dhamma that is realized², dhamma means truth. > Word: patta : p.p. of paapu.nati: to attain. The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta², Discourse on the Synopsis of fundamentals, (M I, 1, translated by Ven. Bodhi as ³The root of Existence², B.P.S., several meanings of dhamma are explained. sacca, truth is explained in a similar passage: <³He saw the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma² (D. 13) -in the sense of the (four noble) Truths.> The word dhamma as samaadhi, concentration is explained: <"Eva.mdhammaa te bhagavanto ahesun"ti-aadiisu samaadhimhi. In the passage of ³Those Exalted Ones had (were with) such dhamma² dhamma refers to concentration.> The same explanation is given in the Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta², and here is a reference to D. 13. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pa~n~naa, wisdom in the same way as above, classified under the four virtues of a householder: <"Sacca.m dhammo dhiti caago"ti evamaadiisu pa~n~naaya.m. In a passage as ³truth, dhamma, courage and generosity² dhamma refers to wisdom.> The Saddaniti explains dhamma as nature (pakati): <"Jaatidhammaana.m bhikkhave sattaanan"ti evamaadiisu pakatiya.m. In such passages as ³Living beings, monks, are of a nature to be born², dhamma thus means nature.> The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² states about dhamma as nature: ³Of a nature to be born, of a nature to grow old, of a nature to die² (D. 22.) **** Nina. 24455 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: food craving help Hello June, Welcome to dsg from me, I hope you will feel comfortable with us here and join in any discussions that interest you. I am assuming that you aren't eating solid food from midday until the following dawn? You would be aware that lay persons are required only to keep the Five Precepts - but that it is common practice to keep three extra ones on Uposatha days. Like Mike and Howard, I have my main meal early in the day and mostly only have a cup of tea or a small snack after that. I agree with Mike that we have to be careful our diet doesn't become a source of vanity or a ritual we become attached to. Thank you for raising this topic. As a reminder, for my own benefit, I sought out the eight Precepts - and found this final paragraph that I hope may be of some use to you. In the 6th precept, "the words "outside the time" mean after twelve noon until dawn the following day. During this time no food is eaten. However, some flexibility will be needed here with people going out to work. For them it would mean no food after their midday lunch until breakfast the next day. If one is troubled by tiredness after work on a day when these precepts are undertaken then tea or coffee are allowable as refreshing drinks. If hunger is the trouble then cocoa (or even plain chocolate) should cure it. None of these refreshments should contain milk, which is considered a food, though sugar, honey and butter are allowed (to bhikkhus, and therefore to lay people keeping the Eight Precepts), presumably because one can take only a little of these things. Fruit juices which have been strained (without fruit pulp) are other possible drinks." http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings/lay- practise/uposatha.htm metta and peace, Christine 24456 From: crystalmelodyhaven Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 0:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" wrote: > Dear Robert and All friends, > > What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other > religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? hello dear dhamma followers, as seen i got my own @yahoo.se mail now!. you wrote "What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ?" ~ a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc ~ that's just life, not hell. that's how life is now. we do our own punishment, fire and pain with an unstable mind. we have remorse, greif, etc. as the great gotama the buddha said, "the mind is the forerunner". mental pain is much worse then any physical pain. If Niraya would be a realm of physical pain over and over, it would mostly lead to mental pain if the mind is in a very negative formation over the acts that's happening. As for buddhist aspects of hell, niraya. it's in several realms|steps, as the deva-loka realm (6). there's fire and ice realm. whatever it's true or not i do not know. as said the danger of such a place would be mental negative and not physical pain. - i would add a little more extra information about life. "why are we born here?" the answer is, "because it's possible to live here" if we were born on ex mard we would die, because the temperature and other several things. We are formed after the envorinment and borned were it's possible to live. the sun is a star, around a sun a sun-system may be. now, how many stars is there in space? /Elias 24457 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Howard: "Also, with regard to *referents* of concepts, trees for example, ultimately they don't arise and cease, because ultimately there are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally and derivatively, they most certainly do arise and cease." Hi Howard, I agree with most of what you wrote on concepts, especially the business about them being impermanent. Although I think I can understand what the abhidhammikas are getting at by saying they are not impermanent. It is very similar to Plato's "Forms" as Icaro suggested. However, I don't understand what you mean by saying there are no such things as trees. If "tree" is a name (concept) that points to a particular group of rupas, what is it that doesn't exist? If a name arises and ceases then surely it exists and the rupas certainly exist. We could say the concept of a tree isn't a tree in the sense of being a group of rupas but that is different from saying the concept of a tree doesn't exist. Perhaps you are referring to the sign (nimitta) of a tree, the mental image and associated ideas. To my way of thinking signs and names serve the same function in identifying objects and so are both concepts. That a concept points to an object of experience is an equation: this "stands for" that. This is the convention involved. Could we say "convention" is a conditional relation? Larry 24458 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. I'm only responding to the last parts of it. [...] > Let us know, Jim, so that like Icaro's bootcamp, we have an idea when > we'll see you again. We'll still be struggling on the same passages in > Vism I'm sure and you can pick up where you left off anytime. Yes, I'll let you know. I'm planning on having the phone line cut off near the end of next month and you should be hearing from me again around Christmas. I think I'll still continue to study the Vism during the meantime. > I liked Howard's example the other day of how intentions can change > anytime. He determined he wasn't continuing a thread with Kom anymore and > soon after was sending another detailed message on it. > > In any case, we'll miss your contributions but look forward to your > return. I'm sure I'll miss reading the emails. > You mentioned your idea before to me of an organisation to support > solitary dwelling. If you'd like to raise it here to determine any > interest or support, then I'm sure others would be happy to hear more. I'm > wondering also if the idea is related to how you perceive bhavana (mental > development)in your life, Jim. Your comments on this thread would be > interesting.(Pls only respond to this post if you'd care to). That idea came up on another list about a month ago and discussed for a couple of weeks and then it just sort of died. I haven't thought much more about it since then, but I'm still interested and was surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were telling Victor. I think the idea might be of interest to anyone with the temperament for living a quiet life of seclusion devoted to the study and practice of the Theravadin teachings. It's still life as a layperson but it could be a viable alternative to living as an ordained monk or as a layperson in a hectic world. I think it is just a matter of interested people coming together to discuss the idea and how best to go about making such a lifestyle change. I think my interest in the solitary life began in my teens while reading H.D. Thoreau's Walden. I've also been inspired by Milarepa's story, the writings of Thomas Merton, and my solitary wanderings in Scotland which included visits to caves that were at one time the abodes of religious asectics. Best wishes, Jim 24459 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Hi Icaro, Re: the difference between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding (panna) of hardness. This is a good example (below) of a moment of understanding of a concept which was previously only understood on a superficial level. I think there could be many answers to this question and I hope Azita comes up with one. One way of looking at it might be that the consciousness of hardness is usually involved with feeling, identities, evaluations and intentions. They are all lumped together as one thing. But the understanding of hardness is just hardness, a rupa, distinct from feeling, identity, evaluation, and intention. This could apply to many situations in daily life. For example, I sometimes become angry because I have to do something, but the actual physical activity is free from all the emotions. This is a good one to remember for boot camp. Larry ps: we see with _consciousness_ but rule with _conscience_. ------------------------------- Icaro: Dear Larry: Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what is the difference between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding of hardness? Azita? ---------------------------------------------- I can tell you about some personal experiences about the issue "Conscience versus understanding". I ever read at Plato that numbers are ideas. In all his works the same concept is postulate breathlessly on and on. Very good indeed! Number are ideas! That´s only a conscience of the concept: I´ve read at Plato that number are ideas, that seemed reasonable for me and after that I begun to read other book... But one day, reading as usual, I was with my TV tuned at MTV and the own concept knocked on my head abruptly (as a tiny bulb lamp shining over a comics character´s head...): Numbers ARE ideas !!!! Suddenly I perceived that the book that I was reading, the Guns´n´Roses video Clip, the MTV and so on are grounded basically on ideas and, by consequence, by numbers! Now I understand that numbers are ideas. This sounds similar to St. Augustine´s experience: he was meditatiting at his house´s veranda when a child playing outside begun to sing "Tomme et legge...Tomme et legge...". Augustine stood up and looked down on his open Bible at certain passage of the St.Paul´s Epistole to Romans that illuminated his understanding at that occasion. At a personal opinion, conscience and understanding belong to different mind modes of expression. Mettaya, Ícaro 24460 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 --- Dear Eagle, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" < > Dear Robert and All friends, > > What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other > religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? > > > ---------------------- There are many different hells according to the texts. The most extreme are nasty through every sense. In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote There are hot hells, cold hells, etc. I think they are as real as this human world; which is to say only experiences through the 6 doors. Now, in this plane, there are in reality no humans, computers, trees: these are only the shadows of the ultimate dhammas appearing. What appears to eyesense is different colours. Sometimes the moment of seeing is the result of kusala kamma (good kamma) and in that case the object will be pleasing to some degree. At other times, in this plane, the moment of seeing is the result of past akusala kamma- and in that case the object will be unpleasant to some degree. The same for the denizens of hell except that the eye conscious moments are the result of past akusala kamma and hence there is usually no opportunity for pleasant results. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid24.html 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha said to the monks: 'Monks, there is a darkness of interstellar space, impenetrable gloom, such a murk of darkness as cannot enjoy the splendour of this moon and sun, though they be of such mighty magic power and majesty.' At these words a certain monk said to the Exalted One: 'Lord, that must be a mighty darkness, a mighty darkness indeed! Pray, lord, is there any other darkness greater and more fearsome than that?' 'There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth...and despair. They are not released from birth, and death...and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. " _____________ EAGLE : How do we have to do now, to make sure that in the next rebirth we > won't forget dhamma at least in our next body's unconscious mind. > > Thanks, > Eagle ____________ From the same sutta: "But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of : This is dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth...They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha." We are making right effort whenever there is more understanding of the Dhamma. We might become afraid of hell and want to turn away from hearing the Dhamma or try to believe that really there are no hells or future rebirths, but this is no solution. Summon courage and strive even more to uncover what the Buddha really taught and little by little all fears will be eradicated. It is the only way. _______________ What is the meaning of 'Norm' in the above passage ? is that a nation Norm > or a local norm or a Buddhist norm ? > > Thanks for your effort to erase my doubt. > __________________ The word Norm was used in The PTS society translation. A strange term to use, the Pali is Dhamma; in this case it means the teaching of the Buddha. ' RobertK p.s Thanks for your kind comments, Howard. 24461 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 7:38:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "Also, with regard to *referents* of concepts, trees for > example, ultimately they don't arise and cease, because ultimately there > are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally and derivatively, they > most certainly do arise and cease." > > Hi Howard, > > I agree with most of what you wrote on concepts, especially the business > about them being impermanent. Although I think I can understand what the > abhidhammikas are getting at by saying they are not impermanent. It is > very similar to Plato's "Forms" as Icaro suggested. > > However, I don't understand what you mean by saying there are no such > things as trees. If "tree" is a name (concept) that points to a > particular group of rupas, what is it that doesn't exist? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: The name (as it arises in the mind) or is spoken exists, though the name as an abstraction of such thinkings and speakings is yet a higher mental construct. But, yes, concept as name and as thought exists. I don't question that concepts as thoughts exist. In fact, I maintain that. To me concepts are thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------ If a name> > arises and ceases then surely it exists and the rupas certainly exist. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The status of a name in the abstract sense is, itself, conventional and concept-only. When I say "tree", that is a SOUND, and it exists. But the NAME 'tree' is never uttered - it is mere concept, a concept that has all actual sayings of "tree" underlying it, but fails to have a unique referent. Now the concept of 'tree', and every percept of a particular tree, is, in fact, a thought. And I have no question about thoughts arising and ceasing. They do. It is their alleged *referents* that, in fact, often do not exist, and what doesn't actually exist also doesn't actually arise or cease. The referent of the GENERAL concept of 'tree' does not exist - there is no Platonic tree existing anywhere, and the referents of particular tree-percepts *also* do not truly exist. The conventional tree I seem to see outside my window is only a seeming. There is merely visual object and visual consciousness and recognition and conceptualization all going on. The actual paramatthic objects occur, and the mental functions relating to them occur, and everything else is mere convention. Where (and when) does this alleged real, external tree begin and end? Does it include the leaves fallen from it, now on the ground? The broken-off branches? Is it the tree with leaves blowing now to the East, with the East wind, or is it the tree a moment later with the leaves listing to the West? Are all the unseen roots part of it? When it lies on the ground after a lightening strike, is it still the tree? Are the carbon dioxide and oxygen involved in the photosynthetic activity in the leaves part of the tree? Is the oxygen that is emitted still part of the tree or not? What we actually have are levels upon levels of superimposed concepts (ideas), and we speak "tree" to treat it all as a unity, a "thing". All that is actual are the paramattha dhammas, intricately and complexly interrelated, and these, themselves are flitting willow the wisps, without substance or own-being. ------------------------------------------------------ > We could say the concept of a tree isn't a tree in the sense of being a > group of rupas but that is different from saying the concept of a tree > doesn't exist. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The concept of a tree is an idea/thought. The group of rupas is not a thing existing anywhere except in the mind via a thought which is a particular tree-percept. We imagine that there is a real tree out there, a real physical object. That is a kind of mental projecting. We construct a thought-object and then reify it. It is often a well grounded thought-object, but still a thought-object only. --------------------------------------------------------- > Perhaps you are referring to the sign (nimitta) of a > > tree, the mental image and associated ideas. To my way of thinking signs > and names serve the same function in identifying objects and so are both > concepts. > > That a concept points to an object of experience is an equation: this > "stands for" that. This is the convention involved. Could we say > "convention" is a conditional relation? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Most often, the so called object of experience you refer to is non-existent. There are just the experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas, plus an additional thought that is the constructed concept/percept. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ============================= With metta, Howard (a figment! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24462 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Howard: "Most often, the so called object of experience you refer to is non-existent. There are just the experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas, plus an additional thought that is the constructed concept/percept." Hi Howard, Experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas is what I am calling a tree. That no tree is present in my experience right now suggests that we are talking about a tree "in general". For this general "tree" to have any meaning it has to refer, ultimately, to experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas. At present, what this general "tree" refers to, for me, is a vague mental image that re-presents past experiences of groups of rupas called trees. This all seems like experience to me, even if vague, misrepresented, or mis-named. What doesn't exist? Larry 24463 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 10:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas is what I am calling a tree. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not one thing (or event); it's many. ----------------------------------------------- > That no tree is present in my experience right now suggests that we are > talking about a tree "in general". For this general "tree" to have any > meaning it has to refer, ultimately, to experienced interrelated > paramattha dhammas. At present, what this general "tree" refers to, for > me, is a vague mental image that re-presents past experiences of groups > of rupas called trees. This all seems like experience to me, even if > vague, misrepresented, or mis-named. What doesn't exist? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Of course there's experience there. Many experiences. That's all just fine. I'm no nihilist. There's not nothing at all. Nor are things the substantial business they seem to be. But, again, why worry about this so much. Let's just ride along the middle way easily, gently, calmly. We don't have to have it all down pat and just right. Let's just look and see as clearly as possible, do the right thing, cultivate calm, kindness, and clarity, and go on going on. ;-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24464 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, You wrote to Larry: ------------ > As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas > arise and cease, and IF Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say > otherwise, then they are in error. --------------- If we can see that one of our personal opinions is contrary to the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries, then we have a golden opportunity: we can take that personal opinion by the scruff of the neck and throw it out! :-) --------------- > I have always considered concepts to > be *thoughts*, and thoughts, like all other conditioned > dhammas arise and cease. --------------- In this instance, your opinion is that concepts should be regarded as conditioned dhammas: or at least, you think there is no harm in regarding them that way. But what if you are wrong and the Abhidhamma is right? It could be that the Middle Way is all about knowing that there are only dhammas and that concepts are not dhammas. I tend to think that concepts should be regarded as self (in a manner of speaking). Concepts and self are both illusory -- they are illusions of something more to reality than the five khandhas. An ariyan uses illusions to 'cross the street' but he doesn't believe in them. He does believe in dhammas, though. --------------- > This class of concepts serves to enable the grasping by > worldlings of the relational nature of the world, > wheras pa~n~na is the primary means that arahants > employ for such understanding. ---------------- I wonder if your personal opinion in favour of the 'existence' of concepts, is based on a concern that people might lose their way -- go off the deep end. I agree it would be wrong for an uninstructed worldling to profess to know what he clearly doesn't know. We don't know there is no self and we don't know there are no concepts. Furthermore, it would give the Dhamma a bad name were we to go about saying silly things like, "There is no you, no me; there are no cars, no trucks, no . . " There are ways of accepting the unreality of concepts without going off the deep end. It all comes back to that same old point of controversy: "The Dhamma is a description of reality, it is not a prescribed course of action." Kind regards, Ken H 24465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life story Dear Eddie, Thank you for sharing events of your personal life. This is quite a moving story. Did your mother get cured? After having had a shock one may look for what is really worth while in life. Nina. op 20-08-2003 19:38 schreef Eddie Lou op eddielou_us@y...: > only > when my mother suffered a lot from dialysis (bad) > effects because out of karuna & metta, I sympathized > and suffered pretty heavily. That opened my eyes to > start search for real truth. 24466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Icaro, Nothing wrong at all with your question. Il n'y a pas de gaucherie du tout, du tout. It gave me the opportunity to tell about my impression in Thailand, just from life. Dhamma is life. We talk about life. I do not see anything off topic. Certain rules in a forum, yes, as to avoiding politics, and not being rude or sharp to others. What impresses you of the Lotus sutta? I do not know it, but heard about it. Nina. op 20-08-2003 20:42 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Quelle gaucherie de ma part! > Nina, I?ve raise such "off-topic" question 24467 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Dear Sarah and Mike, op 21-08-2003 11:11 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > By the way, since one >> definition of 'subha' is 'beauty', I wonder if 'not beautiful' would be >> a >> better translation of 'asubha' in this context? N: I remember that the Buddha was teaching a monk who was taken in by feminine beauty and made him see the same girl as older and older, decaying. Is decay nice to see, wrinkles, yellow teeth, etc, it happens so soon, before you realize it, I assure you. And it is not beautiful or attractive, it is foul. Or what is going on in the intestines: the faeces of a baby do not smell so much, but those of elderly people have a foul odour. Foulness. Decay. Now, about the momentary decay: is it attractive, beautiful? When this can be realized, the aspect of foulness can also be seen more profoundly. The foulness is in the object, and it is panna which can realize it. it may confuse us to think so much of citta accompanied by pleasant feeling or not. Nina. 24468 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (2) Hi Larry, wait a while please, I am coming up with more subco, but full of mistakes :-) :-) And Jim is going away, :-( :-( op 21-08-2003 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > > Hi Nina and Jim, > > Why is there no mention of the general characteristics here? > (impermanence, suffering, not self) 24469 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Dear Larry, I just looked at the Pali, individual essences, this is clear now: dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa, the characteristic of pa~n~naa is to penetrate: dhammasabhaava: sabhaava: the distinct nature or characteristic of dhamma. Remember the "Meanings of Dhamma", one of them was sabhaava. Panna understands and citta experiences hardness: the body-consciousness, vipakacitta, experiuences hardness. It is not citta with panna which understands hardness as rupa, as a conditioned reality with its own characteristic. Nina. op 21-08-2003 01:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism. XIV, 7: What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and > proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essenses of states. > Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what is the difference > between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding of hardness? 24470 From: Sukinderpal Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Nina, Sarah, Mike and all, Thanks for the encouragement. I have been thinking about what you wrote below; "Everybody writes in his own way, even if the contents are similar" This relates to one of the questions which I asked Sarah and Jon when they were last here in Bangkok. I was thinking about the limits of language and communication, particularly when using Buddhist concepts to understand reality. Since then my view has changed prompted largely by Sarah's reminder that it was all just 'thinking'. But I will say something about it anyway, at least I will be sorting out my thoughts and find out if I am any closer to better understanding the situation. In normal everyday use of language we can afford to be vague since we are talking about unrealities anyway [and of course conventional realities, even one apprehended by the clearest minds cannot lead to insight]. The worldling like myself, overwhelmed by one's own kilesa does not care if he is dealing with illusion only. After all everyone agrees to the illusion and it is good enough to get by. Of course one does not realize and does not make the choice to 'get by', it is just avijja, avijja where ever one looks. As a student of Buddha's teachings we begin to differentiate, at least in theory, between conventional realties and actual phenomena. And we still function largely with a deluded mind, but sometimes there can be sati, and one learns a little more about this distinction. I understand that it is in the nature of language itself, and I am not talking about how others handle this. I am more concerned about how it influences my own attempt to understand Buddha's teachings. The thing is, I am wondering if I am being limited by terms such as anatta, anicca etc., such that when someone else uses them in a particular context, I *think* I understand them, but actually I don't. The words themselves conjure up a certain image and I end up more like just using them conveniently to reinforce my limited understanding. In other words I use them quite automatically and mindlessly. This is why I asked Sarah about her own experience knowing that she is quite beyond this obstacle (if indeed it is), and wanted to find out if the teachings themselves had a way to self-check any such limitations. Anyway, now I think this is all a result of confusion, too much thinking :-). Firstly, there is just this moment and understanding this moment does not require words. Though I think that the Buddha's words are universal in their application and all individuals can benefit from them as per their level of understanding, I think the Teachings ultimately point to the actual experience, not to create abstract situations and consequently attempt to find an answer. The true dhamma as heard here on dsg, is not so much Buddhist concepts, but the reminder about what is real, that can be known directly. Besides one is asked again and again to not mistake concept for reality. So anatta, anicca, dukkha are not just ideas to use as convenient, but to be insighted. Before that happens, we will still "think" these concepts with the limited understanding that we have, but the best reminder is that even such thinking is 'conditioned'. Truthfulness, patience, sense of detachment, all are quite necessary supports to higher levels of understanding, and all this and more has been taught by the Buddha. And when we hear about them they condition as sankhara. I know that I am in the right place, and I think I should write more often ;-). There are so many people here who can help me to straighten my views. Thank you Nina, Sarah, Mike and everyone else, for the excellent dhamma you share here. It is indeed a blessing to be a member of dsg and to know personally many of you. :-) Metta, Sukin ps: Nina, regards to Lodewijk from me please. -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 11:37 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, No, here you are wrong. Everybody writes in his own way, even if the contents are similar, therefore, interesting to read. We like to hear you too!! Do not compare yourself with others :-) :-) How is our good friend Dharam? Kindest regards also from Lodewijk. Nina. op 20-08-2003 11:00 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukin@k...: > I discover later that many of the > reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. > Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more > deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some > of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). 24471 From: june_tg Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: food craving help thanks for all your help. i guess i should mention i am not american, i just grew up there. the only reason i am keeping the 8 precepts is because lately my confidence in buddhism grew and i have come to believe that there is something special about meditation. i find that not eating is quite supportive when you want to get into that state of calm. otherwise the body is too heavy. some days things go well, but other days i have this food craving and i feel so restless that i can't get myself to sit. i guess i should try some walking meditation. does anyone know a good book or website about that? thanks again regards june 24472 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Elias, I appreciate very much your explanation. Good luck for your decision to become a monk, hopefully you could attain at least a stream entry and don't forget to share your experience at that time, since no arahant want to share, now. Thanks, Eagle -----Original Message----- From: crystalmelodyhaven [mailto:crystalmelodyhaven@y...] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:08 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 hello dear dhamma followers, as seen i got my own @yahoo.se mail now!. you wrote "What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ?" ~ a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc ~ that's just life, not hell. that's how life is now. we do our own punishment, fire and pain with an unstable mind. we have remorse, greif, etc. as the great gotama the buddha said, "the mind is the forerunner". mental pain is much worse then any physical pain. If Niraya would be a realm of physical pain over and over, it would mostly lead to mental pain if the mind is in a very negative formation over the acts that's happening. As for buddhist aspects of hell, niraya. it's in several realms|steps, as the deva-loka realm (6). there's fire and ice realm. whatever it's true or not i do not know. as said the danger of such a place would be mental negative and not physical pain. - i would add a little more extra information about life. "why are we born here?" the answer is, "because it's possible to live here" if we were born on ex mard we would die, because the temperature and other several things. We are formed after the envorinment and borned were it's possible to live. the sun is a star, around a sun a sun-system may be. now, how many stars is there in space? /Elias 24473 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Robert, Thanks for your great explanation. I believe you had burnt one complete set of Pali Canon, diluted in water and drunk it. Eagle. -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:48 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 --- Dear Eagle, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" < > Dear Robert and All friends, > > What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other > religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? > > > ---------------------- There are many different hells according to the texts. The most extreme are nasty through every sense. In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote There are hot hells, cold hells, etc. I think they are as real as this human world; which is to say only experiences through the 6 doors. Now, in this plane, there are in reality no humans, computers, trees: these are only the shadows of the ultimate dhammas appearing. What appears to eyesense is different colours. Sometimes the moment of seeing is the result of kusala kamma (good kamma) and in that case the object will be pleasing to some degree. At other times, in this plane, the moment of seeing is the result of past akusala kamma- and in that case the object will be unpleasant to some degree. The same for the denizens of hell except that the eye conscious moments are the result of past akusala kamma and hence there is usually no opportunity for pleasant results. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid24.html 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha said to the monks: 'Monks, there is a darkness of interstellar space, impenetrable gloom, such a murk of darkness as cannot enjoy the splendour of this moon and sun, though they be of such mighty magic power and majesty.' At these words a certain monk said to the Exalted One: 'Lord, that must be a mighty darkness, a mighty darkness indeed! Pray, lord, is there any other darkness greater and more fearsome than that?' 'There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth...and despair. They are not released from birth, and death...and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. " _____________ EAGLE : How do we have to do now, to make sure that in the next rebirth we > won't forget dhamma at least in our next body's unconscious mind. > > Thanks, > Eagle ____________ From the same sutta: "But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of : This is dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth...They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha." We are making right effort whenever there is more understanding of the Dhamma. We might become afraid of hell and want to turn away from hearing the Dhamma or try to believe that really there are no hells or future rebirths, but this is no solution. Summon courage and strive even more to uncover what the Buddha really taught and little by little all fears will be eradicated. It is the only way. _______________ What is the meaning of 'Norm' in the above passage ? is that a nation Norm > or a local norm or a Buddhist norm ? > > Thanks for your effort to erase my doubt. > __________________ The word Norm was used in The PTS society translation. A strange term to use, the Pali is Dhamma; in this case it means the teaching of the Buddha. ' RobertK p.s Thanks for your kind comments, Howard. 24474 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Killing responsibility Dear Nina, Yes, You're right unless we have a time tunnel. Now I keep on learning buddhist teachings, and try to practice it. By the way, are you speaking Indonesian, since you mention the dharma group Bogor ? Thanks, Eagle -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:05 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Dear Eagle, There were countless past lives during which all of us have killed, and those kammas of long, long ago can bring results now or in the far future. If we start to worry there is no end and we have even more akusala cittas. Past is past, it has happened already and no use to worry. Nobody, except Buddhas, can know what kamma in the past will bring which result at what time. There were conditions for those kammas to happen. Better pay attention to this moment: not wasting opportunities for kusala and understanding. Nina. op 19-08-2003 12:37 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: > Do we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ? 24475 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Dear Sarah, > Interesting and even more so that you've met Sukin before. (Sukin, I > remember you telling me about a chance meeting and discussion some time > back, I wonder if it was with Manu? Where are you from originally? Next > time, remember to take a pic of the two of you in your shop;-)) Originally, I am from India. I got to know Sukin from one of yahoo groups. After corresponding with him, I visited him at his shop. At that time he gave me a copy of Khun Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life". Since I had browsed through CMA by Bikkhu Bodhi earlier and found it very difficult, by comparison Khun Nina's book was easy to understand and thoroughly enjoyable to read. (My salutations to Khun Nina). > If you have a chance to meet up with Sukin again, I'd recommend anything > he recommends;-)Perhaps he can also take you to join a discussion with > A.Sujin and perhaps you can join some of us in Bkk when we visit at the > end of October. > Conditions permitting, I would like nothing better than that. > As I know, Sukin will take good care of you when you visit. Do you also > speak Thai, I wonder? > I speak both Thai and Lao fairly well. Warmest regards, Manu 24476 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: food craving help Hi June, Thanks for joining us and for raising your question here. As James implied, your qu was a little unusual here (but not out-of-place), just like him;-) (Hi James, waiting for Egypt Diary2;-)). Actually, I really liked the kind and helpful responses James, Icaro, Howard, Mike & Christine gave a lot. I think it’s good to give support in this area whilst looking at our purpose at the same time. I think I see it rather like the ‘living in solitude’ or dressing simply in white threads. It’s good to give assistance to others, whilst recognising it’s not for everyone and won’t of itself take us closer to nibbana;-) --- june_tg wrote: > thanks for all > i guess i should mention i am not american, i just grew up there. .... Hopefully you’ll tell us a little more about yourself in your own time, June. .... > the only reason i am keeping the 8 precepts is because lately my > confidence in buddhism grew and i have come to believe that there is > something special about meditation. i find that not eating is quite > supportive when you want to get into that state of calm. otherwise the > body is too heavy. ..... I think there are many advantages in eating less....including health considerations and more time for DSG;-)(Also, less shopping, preparing, cooking, washing-up....;-)) ..... >some days things go well, but other days i have > this food craving and i feel so restless that i can't get myself to > sit. i guess i should try some walking meditation. does anyone know a > good book or website about that? ..... Perhaps, as others have suggested, you could follow a modified version of the 8 precepts and have the same benefit of lightness without the pressure. It can be very difficult to follow exactly in a lay life, especially when working, travelling or spending time with friends and family. A few other suggestions: - if you’re following a modified version, try having a little fruit and nuts mid-afternoon - have a couple of desert dates in the morning and later if you’re low in energy. Or some dried fruit... - make some veggie broth and finely strain - drink the liquid for energy rather than tea or coffee perhaps. Diluted apple juice is good or soya milk.... - I think it’s better to avoid caffeine completely in the afternoon if possible and to try to go to bed early and get up early. I think a late routine makes it harder to follow this precept. - I’m sure it would help to get some exercise - swimming, hiking, Tai chi - whatever you like. June, perhaps you could tell us more about how and why your confidence in Buddhism has grown. Do you think it’s possible for your understanding and practice to develop even when you’re having food cravings and unable to sit quietly? I’m sorry, I don’t know any books or websites that are relevant, but there are many references to the Buddhist monks drinking congee (cooked rice) water first thing in the morning for any digestive problems and of course many references to attachment to food. I think you’ll find it helpful to read these past messages and maybe follow the links as they include many of these references. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14298 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14408 Finally a quote from the Questions of King Milinda. I’m reading it in the Sammohavinodanii,2179(PTS Dispeller of Delusion) now: Ven Nagasena says: “...your Majesty, this ten-thousandfold world system carries one Buddha; it carries the qualities of only one Tathagata. If a second Buddha were to appear, this ten-thousandfold world system would not carry him. It would waver and tremble and rock and swoop and swerve and tumble and roll over and capsize, and it would not come to rest. ‘Or indeed, your Majesty, just as a man might eat as much food as he wished and, enjoying it and being filled up to his gullet, might be sated, appeased, filled, stuffed, dazed and stiff as a board, would he be happy if he were to eat as much again?’ ‘No, venerable sir, if he ate as much again he would die.’ ‘So indeed, your Majesty, this then-thousandfold world system carries one Buddha ...would not come to rest.’ “ Metta and look forward to more of your unusual qus, Sarah ====== 24477 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Victor, Howard & Mike, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. .... I think we all agree with your comment. Mike questioned why attachment arises immediately to sense objects and I think the answer is ignorance. Another quote from the Samohavinodanii (~Naa.namoli’s PTS tansl of the commentary to the Vibhanga, 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka): 602 “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four noble truths in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering called the fruit of merit which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he initiates the formation of merit [pu~n~nabhisa’nkhaara] classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. ‘Also , not seeing how the fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth falling into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking the honey-smeared knife-edge. Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc. and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit[apu~n~nabhisa’nkhaara] occurring in the three doors, like a child who plays with filth and like one who wants to die and eats poison. ‘Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion [vipallaasa] of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc., he initiates the formation of the imperturbable [aane~njabhisa’nkhaara]* which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city. ‘...This too is said; ‘Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms formations of merit, forms formations of demerit, forms formations of the imperturbable. As soon, bhikkhus, as a bhikkhu’s ignorance is abandoned and clear vision is arisen, bhikkhus, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he does not form even formations of merit.’(cf Sii 82).” ..... > Whether to live with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, > or in a house crowded with children and possession or to live alone > in solitude is a personal decision. Even if one lives with husband, > or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with > children and possession, one can still observe the five precepts, > refraining from unwholesome actions, and meditate, cultivating one's > mind. ..... Victor, I think we’ve found some common ground and agreement on this thread and I thank you for helping and encouraging me to consider the texts and Dhamma from different viewpoints and to reflect further on some deep-seated attachments. (Howard, I also greatly appreciated your contributions and your family have our very best wishes during this difficult time. I'm quite sure your mother in law must really be glad of your kindness and encouragement at this time.) Victor, You have my full support for however your lifestyle works out. For those who choose or find themselves by conditions living ‘in solitude’, please always know you have good friends here who are always most glad to hear from you and share Dhamma reminders. Ultimately, we are all living alone in solitude with the sense faculty experiences. With metta, Sarah ===== * Nyantiloka dict.: Aane~nja: ‘imperturbability’, denotes the immaterial sphere(aruupavacara) under Sankhaara: 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S.XII.2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to * (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), * (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), * (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S.XII.51; D.33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere. ================================= 24478 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Nina: Nina: " Dear Icaro, > Nothing wrong at all with your question. Il n'y a > pas de gaucherie du tout, > du tout. > It gave me the opportunity to tell about my > impression in Thailand, just > from life. Dhamma is life. We talk about life. I do > not see anything off > topic. Certain rules in a forum, yes, as to avoiding > politics, and not being > rude or sharp to others. > What impresses you of the Lotus sutta? I do not know > it, but heard about it." ---------------------------------------------------- Well, very good! The Lotus Sutta - or Sadhamma-Pundarika Sutta - as all Mahayana texts, intends to be a encyclopedical resume of all traditional buddhistic teachings. You will find some of these very small - as the Heart Sutta - and others as big as the Patthanapali!!! When I begun my studies on Abhidhamma, I usually took the Lotus Sutta as a refreshing between that real conceptual marathon called Dhammasangani - and only at saturday mornings, because I was taking also my MSc examinations and Thesis on Engineering!!! What Could I say about the Lotus Sutta ? At first place, it is a real Boddhicitta - a very admirable one! - embodied with all the six perfections. Could one concentrate all that´s important on Buddhism in one tiny and single volume ? Well, the Lotus Sutta do it, and more! It´s a real inspiration for all serious readers of Mahayana Buddhism, either at the solitude of a cabinet, or watching and listening Iron Maiden, Guns´n´Roses, David Bowie, etc, at MTV. As good as listening lectures of His Holiness The Dalai Lama! I usually like to make comparisons between the Lotus Sutta and the Abhidhamma - the first ressembles an echo of the grandeur and accuracy at mental states´ classification of the last. Certain chapters of the Lotus Sutta inspired many buddhistic reformes at China and Japan, as Tien´Tai and Daishonin. And, as a reader of the Dhammasangani - and now the huge Patthanapali, taking aside for a moment the Vibbhanga, Puggalapañña, Dathukattha, Katthavatthu, Yamaka and letting the Vism for others more learned on Pali than me - I can say that if the Dhammasangani is the magnus opus of Theravada Buddhism, the Lotus Sutta is...is...incomensurable!!!! Dear Nina, that´s only my humble humble opinion about these issues. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24479 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** > The thing is, I am wondering if I am > being limited > by terms such as anatta, anicca etc., such that when someone else uses > them in > a particular context, I *think* I understand them, but actually I don't. I think all us puthujjanas are in the same boat. These concepts all start out as just that, concepts, but they are essential, this is pariyatti. When enough understanding of them has accumulated it can condition a moment of insight into present reality, this is pa.tipatti. Then insight can condition pa.tivedha, liberation. But it all has to begin with these concepts, I think. This is the way I see it, anyway-- > ...I > know that > I am in the right place, and I think I should write more often ;-). Hear, hear! Looking forward to more. mike 24480 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Sarah, Thanks for the excellent quote from the Samohavinodanii! I can never be reminded to often that even kusala kamma only continues sa.msaara. mike 24481 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan > The foulness is in the object, and it is panna which can realize it. it may > confuse us to think so much of citta accompanied by pleasant feeling or not. You have a point! I think I'll just set this one aside for a while. Thanks, mike 24482 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Yes, I'll let you know. I'm planning on having the phone line cut off > near the end of next month and you should be hearing from me again > around Christmas. I think I'll still continue to study the Vism during > the meantime. .... That’s good to hear. By coincidence,we had notes (off-list) from two of our friends from Sri Lanka yesterday. It made me wonder if it would be helpful if anyone there were to check in any 2nd hand book shops in SL for any of the old Pali grammar texts you need for your work. If so, perhaps you could just reply here with the titles of the main works you would like and if anyone has any success in tracking any of them down anytime, they can let you know. .... > surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were > telling Victor. .... I see a distinction between supporting each other with Dhamma study and understanding in the various lifestyles (see my post to June in this regard) and having an idea that one lifestyle ‘fits all’ or is best for all. Does that make sense? ..... >I think the idea might be of interest to anyone with > the temperament for living a quiet life of seclusion devoted to the > study and practice of the Theravadin teachings. It's still life as a > layperson but it could be a viable alternative to living as an > ordained monk or as a layperson in a hectic world. I think it is just > a matter of interested people coming together to discuss the idea and > how best to go about making such a lifestyle change. ..... I think this is a good idea and just like those (like June) following the 8 precepts may be able to give each other support, encouragement and suggestions, so too can those making these lifestyle changes as you suggest. I think it’s much better too, to live a ‘good’ life as a layperson in this way, following a simple and secluded lifestyle than becoming an ordained monk if one isn’t able to follow all the vinaya rules precisely and thus playing a part in the decline of the Sangha as RobK pointed out. Just my view. ..... > I think my interest in the solitary life began in my teens while > reading H.D. Thoreau's Walden. I've also been inspired by Milarepa's > story, the writings of Thomas Merton, and my solitary wanderings in > Scotland which included visits to caves that were at one time the > abodes of religious asectics. .... So, even before your serious interest in the Dhamma, we can see your inclinations and accumulations in this regard, Jim. Before you disappear, perhaps you’d care to share more of your ideas and suggestions that might be helpful for others who willingly or unwillingly find themselves living alone and removed from social contact, but wishing to pursue ‘study and practice of the Theravadin teachings’. What are the difficulties and benefits now compared to when you first moved to your cottage and started living like this? I’m sure you must have considered ordaining on many occasions. Is there anything else you’d like to mention about your idea of mutual support? Metta, Sarah ====== 24483 From: Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/21/03 11:37:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote to Larry: > ------------ > > As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas > >arise and cease, and IF Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say > >otherwise, then they are in error. > --------------- > > If we can see that one of our personal opinions is > contrary to the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries, then > we have a golden opportunity: we can take that personal > opinion by the scruff of the neck and throw it out! :-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught repeatedly and uneqivically that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent and unsatisfying, and, of course, not self. And there is but one unconditioned dhamma. I follow the Buddha's teaching. I throw out positions diametrical to it. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > > I have always considered concepts to > >be *thoughts*, and thoughts, like all other conditioned > >dhammas arise and cease. > --------------- > > In this instance, your opinion is that concepts should be > regarded as conditioned dhammas: or at least, you think > there is no harm in regarding them that way. But what if > you are wrong and the Abhidhamma is right? It could be that > the Middle Way is all about knowing that there are only > dhammas and that concepts are not dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is but one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. As far as concepts are concerned, I think we use the term 'concept' differently. I just mean a thought. Thoughts are conditioned mind-door objects, and they arise and cease, dependently. I believe that when you speak of a concept, you mean what I call the alleged referent of a concept. In the overwhelming majority of cases, concepts in that sense are literally nonexistent. It is even false to say that they don't arise and don't cease, because there is no "they" to do anything. --------------------------------------------------- > > I tend to think that concepts should be regarded as self > (in a manner of speaking). Concepts and self are both > illusory -- they are illusions of something more to > reality than the five khandhas. An ariyan uses illusions > to 'cross the street' but he doesn't believe in them. He > does believe in dhammas, though. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think we truly disagree here. We are not talking about the same things when we use the term 'concept'. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > >This class of concepts serves to enable the grasping by > >worldlings of the relational nature of the world, > >wheras pa~n~na is the primary means that arahants > >employ for such understanding. > ---------------- > > I wonder if your personal opinion in favour of the > 'existence' of concepts, is based on a concern that > people might lose their way -- go off the deep end. I > agree it would be wrong for an uninstructed worldling to > profess to know what he clearly doesn't know. We don't > know there is no self and we don't know there are no > concepts. Furthermore, it would give the Dhamma a bad > name were we to go about saying silly things like, "There > is no you, no me; there are no cars, no trucks, no . . " > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What you say here *is* a consideration for me, but it is not the main point. -------------------------------------------------- > > There are ways of accepting the unreality of concepts > without going off the deep end. It all comes back to > that same old point of controversy: "The Dhamma is a > description of reality, it is not a prescribed course of > action." > > Kind regards, > Ken H > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24484 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:13am Subject: subco Vis. correction 4, and no 5. A Correction in subco, no 4: change after As to the word, half value, this means having half weight: (erase the old one.) and also in the Pali-English: iti-saddo aadiattho, tena paadasaara samasaaraparopaadasaaraadiina.m sa"ngaho. ================= Subco No 5: 5. sa~n~naa hiitiaadi upamaasa.msandana.m. The phrase ³Perception, etc.² this refers to the composing of a simile. sa~n~naa vibhaaga.m akatvaa pi.n.davaseneva aaramma.nassa gaha.nato daarakassa kahaapa.nadassanasadisii vuttaa. Perception is said to be like a child who sees the coin, because it does not make a distinction and it apprehends the object as a mass. tathaa hi saa ``yathaaupa.t.thitavisayapada.t.thaanaa'' vuccati. Therefore it is said of perception ³its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared². vi~n~naa.na.m aaramma.ne ekaccavisesagaha.nasamatthataaya gaamikapurisassa kahaapa.nadassanasadisa.m vutta.m. Consciousness is said to be like the villager who sees the coin, because of its skill of apprehending some distinguishing marks with regard to the object. pa~n~naa aaramma.ne anavasesavisesaavabodhato hera~n~nikassa kahaapa.nadassanasadisii vuttaati da.t.thabba.m. Understanding should be seen as said to be like the moneychanger who sees the coin, because it understands completely the distinguishing marks with regard to the object. ``naanappakaarato jaanana''nti iminaa ~neyyadhammaa pacceka.m naanappakaaraati tesa.m yaathaavato avabodho pa~n~naati dasseti. The phrase, ³by knowing in diverse ways², he explains that by this he knows with regard to the dhamma that is to be understood each single one, and as to the phrase, ³in diverse ways², it means, true knowledge of them, namely, ³understanding². tathaa hi vutta.m ``sabbe dhammaa sabbaakaarena buddhassa bhagavato ~naa.namukhe aapaathamaagacchantii''ti Therefore it is said, ³ All dhammas appear to the sphere of knowledge of the Buddha, the Exalted One.² ***** English: The phrase ³Perception, etc.² this refers to the composing of a simile. Perception is said to be like a child who sees the coin, because it does not make a distinction and it apprehends the object as a mass. Therefore it is said of perception ³its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared². Consciousness is said to be like the villager who sees the coin, because of its skill of apprehending some distinguishing marks with regard to the object. Understanding should be seen as said to be like the moneychanger who sees the coin, because it understands completely the distinguishing marks with regard to the object. The phrase, ³by knowing in diverse ways², he explains that by this he knows with regard to the dhamma that is to be understood each single one, and as to the phrase, ³in diverse ways², it means, true knowledge of them, namely, ³understanding². Therefore it is said, ³ All dhammas appear to the sphere of knowledge of the Buddha, the Exalted One.² ***** Nina. 24485 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:13am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 7: Understanding of Kamma as one's Own. Dhamma Issues, 7: Understanding of Kamma as one's Own. Chapter 7 Understanding of Kamma as one¹s Own. Introduction [1] One may have theoretical understanding of the fact that each person receives the results of the deeds he performed in the past, but this is not the same as the direct realization of this truth. As is explained in this Issue, when paññå has been developed to the degree that stages of insight arise, there is direct understanding of kamma as one¹s own (kammassakatå-ñåna). Insight is developed in different stages (Visuddhimagga Ch XVIII-XXI). The first stage of ³tender insight² is knowing the distinction between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa. At this stage paññå understands more clearly the nature of nåma and it also understands what kamma is and what vipåka. The second stage is knowing the conditioned nature of nåma and rúpa. At this stage paññå realizes more clearly than at the first stage the nature of kamma and vipåka. Insight develops stage by stage until the process during which enlightenment is attained. Adaptation knowledge, anuloma-ñåna, which arises during the process of the attainment of enlightenment, still has the three general characteristics as object: it knows nåma and rúpa as impermanent, dukkha or anattå. It is succeeded by the change of lineage, gotrabhú, which has nibbåna as object. After that lokuttara cittas arise: path-consciousness, magga-citta, and fruition-consciousness, phala-citta. As we shall see, at each stage of insight kamma and vipåka are directly understood, and as insight develops this understanding becomes clearer. ****** Issue of Analysis: is insight knowledge also understanding of kamma as one's own (kammassakatå-ñåna)? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: insight knowledge includes understanding of kamma as one¹s own. The sources which support this conclusion: 1: The ³Book of Analysis² (Vibhanga, second Book of the Abhidhamma), Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, Fourfold Exposition (793-796). 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Commentary to the Book of Analysis, II, Ch 16, Triads. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: In the ³Book of Analysis² and in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² (2073, 2074, and 2090 etc.), different degrees of insight have been explained: knowledge that kamma is one¹s own, knowledge in conformity with the truth, knowledge of one having the path, the knowledge of one having the fruit 2. The ³Book of Analysis: (793) summarizes with regard to knowledge of kamma as one¹s own, that it is the understanding which comprehends kamma, and the result of kamma, such as, understanding that there is result of giving. This understanding is not yet of the degree of insight which is knowledge in conformity with the truth. Knowledge of kamma as one¹s own has many degrees and thus, it is explained in accordance with these different degrees. When insight is explained as fourfold in this section, it does not mean that these different kinds of insight do not include understanding of kamma as one¹s own. When paññå of the degree of insight knowledge arises, it knows the difference between cause: kusala and akusala, and result: vipåka. Therefore, the person who develops insight has understanding of kamma as one¹s own which is much clearer and firmer than merely theoretical understanding of kamma and its result. At the moments of insight knowledge paññå distinguishes between the different characteristics of realities, and, as subsequent stages of insight knowledge are reached, it realizes their characteristics more clearly, in a more refined way and more deeply. Paññå does not limit itself to only knowing that this is nåma and that rúpa. It must further develop and clearly know the realities of kamma and its result in accordance with their true nature. **** Footnotes: 1.I have written the introduction and added the footnotes. 2. Adaptation knowledge or conformity knowledge, anuloma-ñåna, arises before the ³change of lineage², gotrabhú, during the process when enlightenment is attained. The ³change of lineage² is followed by the lokuttara cittas experiencing nibbåna. Path knowledge refers to paññå accompanying the magga-citta and fruition knowledge refers to paññå accompanying the phala-citta, fruition-consciousness, which is the result of the magga-citta. We read in the ³Dhammasangani², the first Book of the Abhidhamma, Book II, Part II, 1365) that the knowledge of kamma as one¹s own is classified under purity of view (ditthivisuddhi), thus, under insight: ³What is purity in view? Knowledge of the specific nature of kamma; knowledge of the Truths in their due order; the knowledge of him who holds the Path; the knowledge of him who holds the fruit of the Path.² ***** 24486 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hello Jim, Sarah, Victor and all, I think this is a very worthwhile idea and believe the discussion elsewhere provided much food for thought. Jim, I don't think the interest faded - it's like making bread - after combining the ingredients, bread mixture has to be covered and set aside in a warm place to multiply in size. And so with this topic of a deliberative spiritual community of lay hermits or recluses. As I recall - the discussion centred on lay people supporting each other to live a life of seclusion and simplicity for the purpose of dhamma study and practice. This included people staying where they were, and being in communication with a global network of similarly interested buddhists; a rotating use of properties for travel and holidays was suggested; and a strong interest was also expressed in creating an intentional spiritual community by sharing a property (i.e. rural, large, with separate forms of housing) - this led to a discussion of how to ensure an income, safety, support, and enough, but not too much, companionship. I think this topic has merit - as many of us are in the over-40 age bracket - we may find it useful to consider just how we eventually wish to live out our lives, with whom, and how best to support an increasing commitment to study and practice. I wonder what other dsg-ers think? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" Sarah: > > You mentioned your idea before to me of an organisation to support > > solitary dwelling. If you'd like to raise it here to determine any > > interest or support, then I'm sure others would be happy to hear > more. I'm > > wondering also if the idea is related to how you perceive bhavana > (mental > > development)in your life, Jim. Your comments on this thread would be > > interesting.(Pls only respond to this post if you'd care to). > Jim: That idea came up on another list about a month ago and discussed for > a couple of weeks and then it just sort of died. I haven't thought > much more about it since then, but I'm still interested and was > surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were > telling Victor. I think the idea might be of interest to anyone with > the temperament for living a quiet life of seclusion devoted to the > study and practice of the Theravadin teachings. It's still life as a > layperson but it could be a viable alternative to living as an > ordained monk or as a layperson in a hectic world. I think it is just > a matter of interested people coming together to discuss the idea and > how best to go about making such a lifestyle change. > > I think my interest in the solitary life began in my teens while > reading H.D. Thoreau's Walden. I've also been inspired by Milarepa's > story, the writings of Thomas Merton, and my solitary wanderings in > Scotland which included visits to caves that were at one time the > abodes of religious asectics. > > Best wishes, > Jim 24487 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Sarah, > By coincidence,we had notes (off-list) from two of our friends from Sri > Lanka yesterday. It made me wonder if it would be helpful if anyone there > were to check in any 2nd hand book shops in SL for any of the old Pali > grammar texts you need for your work. If so, perhaps you could just reply > here with the titles of the main works you would like and if anyone has > any success in tracking any of them down anytime, they can let you know. Looking for out-of-print Pali books in 2nd hand bookstores could be a time-consuming process, so it may not be such a good idea to ask someone if they could do this voluntarily. Another idea might be to ask if they could try to locate an antiquarian bookseller who may happen to specialize in such books and could help. Some of these antiquarian booksellers do not have stores in the usual way but rather keep their stock at home where you might have to arrange an appointment to see the books. Many countries have associations of antiquarian booksellers where one could obtain a list of their names and addresses. I don't know if SL has one and besides there could be a language barrier for English-speakers in foreign lands. One book I'm interested in getting is the Nyasa on Kaccayana's grammar, but Teng Kee says this work is coming up for reprinting in the next year or so. I'm also interested in acquiring the ganthipada (a kind of tika) on the Patisambhidhamagga commentary which I think can be obtained in Bkk. Perhaps Nina would be interested in a copy too. I'm interested in all kinds of hard-to-get books printed in Pali (grammatical, commentarial, or otherwise) and can be in any script. Perhaps on some of your Asian travels, you could make enquiries, get an address or two, or make a purchase for me if you're certain it's in Pali. But don't ever go out of your way, just if it happens to be convenient and a fun thing to do. :-) .... > > surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were > > telling Victor. > .... > I see a distinction between supporting each other with Dhamma study and > understanding in the various lifestyles (see my post to June in this > regard) and having an idea that one lifestyle 'fits all' or is best for > all. Does that make sense? Sure does. .... > Before you disappear, perhaps you'd care to share more of your ideas and > suggestions that might be helpful for others who willingly or unwillingly > find themselves living alone and removed from social contact, but wishing > to pursue 'study and practice of the Theravadin teachings'. What are the > difficulties and benefits now compared to when you first moved to your > cottage and started living like this? I'm sure you must have considered > ordaining on many occasions. I won't get much into the difficulties and benefits aspect as it would take quite a bit of explaining. I can remember having thoughts about becoming a monk in 1982, but after some consideration I decided that the monastic lifestyle just wasn't for me. Actually, my retreat-in-the-forest living situation began 15 years before the cottage. Just after I returned from my 16 months of wandering on foot in the UK & Iceland in 1972-3, a trailer-retreat suddenly appeared in the forest of my parents' 10 acres. I made good use of this old trailer (given to me by my dad's boss) until 1982 when I sold it in anticipation of the property being sold in 1984. So for the past 30 years except for a 5 yr gap in the 80s I've been very fortunate in having my own retreat. I do not personally know anyone else who lives the way I do so I think my case may be rather unsual in this day and age. Last year, a brother-in-law of a friend of mine had been suffering greatly from a marriage breakdown that ended up in a divorce, losing a good job, and losing most of his hard-earned possessions to his wife and daughter through the court system. He was left facing the prospect of having to live on a small pension or worse having to live on the streets and was quite interested in finding out more about my cheap way of living. But his interest had more to do with economic survival than a unique way of life. He has since succeeded in getting a big disability pension from the insurance company but is continually fighting to keep it, just like the fight to keep his job. If he loses the battle, I could be hearing from him again... The main difficulty I've been having for the past five years is with the extent to which the internet has intruded into my daily life and I've been trying to come up with the best solution and I have to come up with one or I could end up in the hospital or with burned out eyes. It also interferes with my sense of living a quiet life of seclusion which I really need, this is not what I had in mind when I first moved here. I need to find out if the temporary phone disconnection helps. I'll let you know what it was like when I come back online. If it turns out to be beneficial, I'll have to consider doing it regularly. Just need to find the right balance, no need to give up the internet contacts altogether. > Is there anything else you'd like to mention about your idea of mutual > support? When I was thinking about the idea a few weeks ago, it led me to thinking about some larger social issues and how a Theravada society might function within a larger Western society. The Theravada society could be wide enough to include everyone from all walks of life, including hermits in the forest. I'm sure there is so much more to write about on this topic. Best wishes, Jim 24488 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:03pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Dear Chris: Chris: "I think this is a very worthwhile idea and believe > the discussion > elsewhere provided much food for thought. Jim, I > don't think the > interest faded - it's like making bread - after > combining the > ingredients, bread mixture has to be covered and set > aside in a warm > place to multiply in size. And so with this topic > of a deliberative > spiritual community of lay hermits or recluses. As > I recall - the > discussion centred on lay people supporting each > other to live a > life of seclusion and simplicity for the purpose of > dhamma study and > practice." ----------------------------------------------------- Dear Chris, you will find around the world many enterprises with the same aims: Findhorn at Scotland (new age and natural living), Church of Earth (Gurdjieff´s disciples) and even here where I live - Brazil - there were many supporters of these ideas, like the passed music and Composer Raul Seixas. "Viva...Viva... Viva a Sociedade Alternativa!" Some of these initiatives still survive, but most of them disappeared with time. And why ? The source of all this lies inside the human mind! --------------------------------------------------- Chris: "This included people staying where they > were, and being in > communication with a global network of similarly > interested > buddhists; a rotating use of properties for travel > and holidays was > suggested; and a strong interest was also > expressed in creating an > intentional spiritual community by sharing a > property (i.e. rural, > large, with separate forms of housing) - this led to > a discussion of > how to ensure an income, safety, support, and > enough, but not too > much, companionship. > I think this topic has merit - as many of us are in > the over-40 age > bracket - we may find it useful to consider just > how we eventually > wish to live out our lives, with whom, and how best > to support an > increasing commitment to study and practice." ----------------------------------------------------- Meritous as it seems to be, this concept of a platonic "Republic" of goodwilled persons, linked together by the internet or otherwise, living with the same aims and interests, respecting the line traced by everyone´s individuality, perhaps must overtake so many obstacles: without keeping a buddhistic commonplace, everyone will have to deal with Lobha, Dosa and Moha, bad vedanas, bad Kamma and its akusala vipakas, etc. Here in Brazil I can remember such initiative carried away many years ago by the Swamy Sevananda, Mr. Binot and others. It failed off, with bitter strifes between the "members" at the last end. That´s the real motivation of my "off topic" question to Nina about laypersons Guilds, brotherhoods , etc, at Thailand and Sri Lanka. Taking the Bhikkhus´ vows is a very hard attainment for everyone... Keep boostin´ Chris! Perhaps someday these ideals - nurtured on with good minds and good wills - will blossom at something very, very beautiful and meritorious to the real path! ----------------------------------------------------- Chris: "I wonder what other dsg-ers think?" ---------------------------------------------------- For sure you have got my own viewpoint about it! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24489 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Jim! Jim: " One book I'm > interested in getting is the Nyasa on Kaccayana's > grammar, but Teng > Kee says this work is coming up for reprinting in > the next year or so. > I'm also interested in acquiring the ganthipada (a > kind of tika) on > the Patisambhidhamagga commentary which I think can > be obtained in > Bkk. Perhaps Nina would be interested in a copy too. > I'm interested in > all kinds of hard-to-get books printed in Pali > (grammatical, > commentarial, or otherwise) and can be in any > script. Perhaps on some > of your Asian travels, you could make enquiries, get > an address or > two, or make a purchase for me if you're certain > it's in Pali. But > don't ever go out of your way, just if it happens to > be convenient and > a fun thing to do. :-)" ---------------------------------------------------- Hey !!!! I´m on it !!!! Spare room at the table for me !!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Jim: " I've been trying to come up with the best solution > and I have to come > up with one or I could end up in the hospital or > with burned out eyes." ---------------------------------------------------- Heheheh!!! Me too !!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Jim: " When I was thinking about the idea a few weeks ago, > it led me to > thinking about some larger social issues and how a > Theravada society > might function within a larger Western society. The > Theravada society > could be wide enough to include everyone from all > walks of life, > including hermits in the forest. I'm sure there is > so much more to > write about on this topic." ----------------------------------------------------- Nina could get more details about this matter of Theravada Societies...ops! Off Topic !!!!! Good Luck! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Best wishes, > Jim === message truncated === ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24490 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:00pm Subject: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Sarah, you wrote in a past post (Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship): > "I still recall how hard it was for me to give up life in a tiny > bare cell (with no electricity) in the forest in Sri Lanka to > return to England and try to help my family during a difficult > time." I don't mean to intrude, but I was wondering if you can share some of your experiences with us that you had in Sri Lanka ? I very often contemplate selling all of my possessions, quitting my job and taking off to a Theravada Buddhist dominated country such as Thailand or Sri Lanka to live a life of contemplation. I am not certain if you went there to live a life of solitude and contemplation, but if you did, I thought it would also be relevant to the ongoing discussion (on solitude) and would be helpful to those like me contemplating doing this. with metta, nori 24491 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:31am Subject: Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Note: Sorry Sarah it took so long to rework this update and submit it but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian Museum, and traveling to the Red Sea. My arrival to Cairo was pretty much what I expected: chaotic. The airport was crowded and hot and one of my large cargo suitcases didn't arrive. After filling out a report for the airport, which required assistance from the public relations director associated with the school, we were off for the apartment. But the bus driver, who had to circle the airport several times while getting this done, is a very daring driver. At one point he had missed the turn to go back around the airport so he stopped in the middle of the road and proceeded to backup the bus, even while there was oncoming traffic! I guess such wild driving is the thing in Cairo; it must have been because the police didn't immediately swoop down on us, as would have happened in the US. I hope my other cargo container wasn't lost; the airport is supposed to call and have it delivered when it arrives. It will be interesting to see if that happens. On the way to the apartment building, Lucille told me about the buildings 'landlord'; I was not pleased to hear of this situation. The landlord and his wife and their three children live underneath the apartment building; now when I say underneath I don't mean in the basement. I mean that there is an empty space underneath the building that doesn't have walls, the building is supported by columns, and has nothing but a dirt floor and that is where this family lives. There are several empty apartments in this building but they aren't allowed to live in any of them; not only that, there is a laundry room in the building with two washers and two dryers but they cannot use those either, the wife washes all of the clothes by hand, outside. Surprisingly, they do not have a dirty appearance, even though they live in a 'cave' practically, which I am not sure how they manage. The husband is very professional. He makes sure that everything is working in the apartment and takes care of problems. The owner of the building gives them some kind of salary but it isn't much so I was encouraged to tip them a little bit, like one pound (18 cents American) whenever they help me carry things up to my apartment, etc. The landlady, I was told, will also clean my apartment weekly, or bi-weekly if I choose, for about 15 to 20 pounds (about $3.00 American). Of course I will probably do that…in the US I paid a housekeeper $70.00 each time she cleaned…this kind of thing will take some getting used to. According to Buddhism, such things are the result of kamma: ""Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the condition, why inferiority and superiority are met with among human beings, among mankind? For one meets with short-lived and long-lived people, sick and healthy people, ugly and beautiful people, insignificant and influential people, poor and rich people, low-born and high-born people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, what is the condition, why superiority and inferiority are met with among human beings, among mankind?" 3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135a.html Following this train of thought, being a white, male, educated, citizen of the United States (the most powerful country in the world), I must have fantastic karma. Do I feel that I deserve it? Not really. I just feel that I have been incredibly lucky, but according to the Buddha that isn't the case at all. I don't know what I feel about this but being here in Cairo, the land of the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, I will have more opportunity to explore this matter. 24492 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Hello james! James: " Note: Sorry Sarah it took so long to rework this > update and submit it > but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian > Museum, and > traveling to the Red Sea." ----------------------------------------------------- Dhamma´s Diary Chapter 1 !!! I. JAMES´ LANKAVATARA (ops! It´s Egypt, not Sri Lanka) (Mettaya, Ícaro) ---------------------------------------------------- > > My arrival to Cairo was pretty much what I expected: > chaotic. The > airport was crowded and hot and one of my large > cargo suitcases > didn't arrive. After filling out a report for the > airport, which > required assistance from the public relations > director associated > with the school, we were off for the apartment. But > the bus driver, > who had to circle the airport several times while > getting this done, > is a very daring driver. At one point he had missed > the turn to go > back around the airport so he stopped in the middle > of the road and > proceeded to backup the bus, even while there was > oncoming traffic! > I guess such wild driving is the thing in Cairo; it > must have been > because the police didn't immediately swoop down on > us, as would have > happened in the US. I hope my other cargo container > wasn't lost; the > airport is supposed to call and have it delivered > when it arrives. > It will be interesting to see if that happens. > > On the way to the apartment building, Lucille told > me about the > buildings 'landlord'; I was not pleased to hear of > this situation. > The landlord and his wife and their three children > live underneath > the apartment building; now when I say underneath I > don't mean in the > basement. I mean that there is an empty space > underneath the > building that doesn't have walls, the building is > supported by > columns, and has nothing but a dirt floor and that > is where this > family lives. There are several empty apartments in > this building > but they aren't allowed to live in any of them; not > only that, there > is a laundry room in the building with two washers > and two dryers but > they cannot use those either, the wife washes all of > the clothes by > hand, outside. Surprisingly, they do not have a > dirty appearance, > even though they live in a 'cave' practically, which > I am not sure > how they manage. The husband is very professional. > He makes sure > that everything is working in the apartment and > takes care of > problems. The owner of the building gives them some > kind of salary > but it isn't much so I was encouraged to tip them a > little bit, like > one pound (18 cents American) whenever they help me > carry things up > to my apartment, etc. The landlady, I was told, > will also clean my > apartment weekly, or bi-weekly if I choose, for > about 15 to 20 pounds > (about $3.00 American). Of course I will probably > do that…in the US > I paid a housekeeper $70.00 each time she > cleaned…this kind of thing > will take some getting used to. > > According to Buddhism, such things are the result of > kamma: > > ""Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the > condition, why > inferiority and superiority are met with among human > beings, among > mankind? For one meets with short-lived and > long-lived people, sick > and healthy people, ugly and beautiful people, > insignificant and > influential people, poor and rich people, low-born > and high-born > people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, > what is the > condition, why superiority and inferiority are met > with among human > beings, among mankind?" > 3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of > kammas, they have > kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, > kammas as their > homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings > according to > inferiority and superiority." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135a.html > > Following this train of thought, being a white, > male, educated, > citizen of the United States (the most powerful > country in the > world), I must have fantastic karma. Do I feel that > I deserve it? > Not really. I just feel that I have been incredibly > lucky, but > according to the Buddha that isn't the case at all. > I don't know > what I feel about this but being here in Cairo, the > land of the > incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, I will have > more opportunity > to explore this matter. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24493 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:12am Subject: Greetings All Dear Friends, Please accept my heartfelt metta to you all. Sarah ordered me to inform the members about my whereabouts , so in case the InterPol wants me ,DSG can tip them right away. :o) I was asked to come back to USA on an assignment in the the beginning of this year and was living in Boston since then. Will be here until sometime next year. I have been behaving well , without accumulating papa kamma, but there have been some akusala kamma. My plan is to go beyond the break-even ,.. but as you know , one has to be very very patient. Although I have remained silent on DSG, I have been frequently reading the posts and thoughts with great interest. Hope all your merits have been treating you well. May they get all the favourable conditions to get realised. May you get all the courage to face your demerits. Rgds, gayan 24494 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan, Really great to hear from you. I've often wondered what had become of you as things seemed to be improving in SL. I found your old posts on the va~ncakas priceless--learning to recognize the prevalence and subtlety of akusala is not only invaluable in itself, it also points up the indispensibility of detailed understanding (hence abhidhamma) to practice. Welcome back! I hope we can look forward to hearing more from you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gayan Karunaratne To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:12 AM Subject: [dsg] Greetings All > Dear Friends, > > Please accept my heartfelt metta to you all. > > Sarah ordered me to inform the members about my whereabouts , so in case the > InterPol wants me, DSG can tip them right away. > :o) > > I was asked to come back to USA on an assignment in the the beginning of > this year and was living in Boston since then. Will be here until sometime > next year. > I have been behaving well , without accumulating papa kamma, but there have > been some akusala kamma. Glad to hear you've avoided the paapa-- > My plan is to go beyond the break-even ,.. but as you know , one has to be > very very patient. No choice! Slow going with or without it--so much more pleasant with patience. > Although I have remained silent on DSG, I have been frequently reading the > posts and thoughts with great interest. > > Hope all your merits have been treating you well. May they get all the > favourable conditions to get realised. > May you get all the courage to face your demerits. Thanks! Keep in touch, eh? mike p.s. I'll notify 'Homeland Security' of your whereabouts. 24495 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > Thank you very much for your corrections. I shall explain to Larry to put > them in. > I respect your decision, I understand. Lodewijk sympathizes warmly with you > that you want to cut off telephone and radio, news is so bad. > When in Dec may I write to you again? I ask this, because Yong Peng has his > examinations in Nov. and only in Dec he may start a new sutta. He mentioned > Elephant's footprint, but I have to ask him again. I depend so much on you > for my texts on line. From where do you download co and subco? Maybe > difficult for me. As I mentioned to Sarah, I should be back online around Christmas time. If that is too late for you, I'd be glad to supply you with the texts you need before I go offline in late September. Just let me know what you need. The source for the texts is the CSCD disk but these have to be converted to the Velthuis scheme. Being a Mac user you might be able to copy and paste the texts from tipitaka.org and then do a "replace all" for each of the special Pali characters as I explained to Sarah in an earlier message. > Which day in Sept do you turn the lights off? The lights stay on! I'm only disconnecting the phone line and putting the radio out of reach, as if I'm severing some worldly ties here, eh? I have to take such action because I simply don't have enough will power to resist the temptation to check on the email and the news, like someone trying to give up smoking and knowing that there are plenty of cigarettes in the house. The disconnection will also allow me more time to do some much needed work around the property and reconnect with my immediate surroundings. I feel like > an orphan, quite a blow to us and the Pali list. You are the most able and > inspiring teacher I know, and I always appreciate your help. To whom else > could I turn? And now no more Kaccayaana! It's unfortunate that there are so few around who are willing and able to help with the difficulties of Pali. I had to learn Pali mostly on my own and there was never anyone I could turn to for help, except for a short period in 1980 while studying with one of Warder's students. Wouldn't the Foundation be a good resource to turn to? I've heard that there are a number of Pali experts there, including K. Supee. And what about K. Suporn? The study of Kaccayana can resume at a later time. That stopped because of the Vism. project. I'm afraid I'm not very good at multi-tasking. I seem to do best just focussing on one project or discussion thread at a time and if there are a number of them to deal with all at once, I just seem to go into gridlock not knowing what to do next. > I do not feel good about it that I may have many mistakes in Co Rahula. > Nobody else can or will correct me on Pali list. Would you please, before > going away, indicate to me where the mistakes are, so that I can correct > those. Yong Peng wants to put my texts on his net and it would be better > without coarse mistakes at least. I always check my text with the Thai as > best as I am able to. Given the voluminous translation work that you've done so far regarding MN 62, I'm afraid that checking for mistakes will involve an enormous amount of time and I already have enough on my plate as it is. The MN 62 project is one that I didn't get involved with right from the start and for me to check your work I'd first have to spend a great deal of time just getting familiar with all the Pali material. As you have the Thai translation of the co., at least you can check with that. Don't take it that, just because no one has pointed out any mistakes, there aren't any. [...] > Just one question on Saddaniti, at the end. I completed "Meanings of > dhamma". The word : > Since the teachers of the commentary have thus demonstrated that the > occurence of the word dhamma as subject is manifold, > > tattha tattha pana aadisaddena yuttivisayaadayo ca atthaa gahetabbaa. > and when one has taken up the application of these subjects, beginning with > the word as used in various texts, the meanings (of the word dhamma) should > be comprehended. > I'm not too clear on these passages. What I'm seeing in the last one is: 'but with the word 'aadi' here and there the meanings of application, subject, and so one are to be taken.' I'm a little puzzled about the function of the 'ca'. The first passage is even more difficult to interpret. > But Canadian winter starts really end Dec. but autumn is earlier now. > Thank you very much and I hope you have a good hibernation; yes, you have it > every year. The simple life, no fringes. > Nina. A Canadian winter usually sets in by Dec and it can be earlier or later in the month. The snow can come as early as October but doesn't usually stay very long. Best wishes, Jim 24496 From: crystalmelodyhaven Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:40am Subject: generosity I were likely to give, as for one doves wing. Blindy i did not even see what was done. A dove doesn't fly without two wings, but as generosity is seen, as what it gives, and what arises. Two wings will spread and the dove will be complete. 24497 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Dear Manu, I am so glad you are interested in Abhidhamma, I always rejoice when people have this interest. If you have questions or remarks, it is good to exchange views for all of us. Perhaps we meet in Bgk, welcome to this list and chook di. Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:39 schreef Manu Wadhwani op lachmis@l...: > I visited him at his shop. At that time he gave me a copy of Khun Nina's " > Abhidhamma in Daily Life". 24498 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Dear Sukin, you expressed your views on concepts very well, and I know you would. I hope to receive more often your sympathetic posts, and this one was a condition for Mike to write so well about the three phases. We need to be reminded often: pariyatti, patipatti and pativeda. With appreciation, Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:10 schreef Sukinderpal op sukin@k...: we begin to differentiate, at least > in theory, between > conventional realties and actual phenomena. And we still function > largely with a deluded > mind, but sometimes there can be sati, and one learns a little more > about this distinction. 24499 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] three phases. Hi Mike, excellent reminder, Nina. op 22-08-2003 14:40 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > I think all us puthujjanas are in the same boat. These concepts all start > out as just that, concepts, but they are essential, this is pariyatti. When > enough understanding of them has accumulated it can condition a moment of > insight into present reality, this is pa.tipatti. Then insight can > condition pa.tivedha, liberation. But it all has to begin with these > concepts, I think. This is the way I see it, anyway-- 24500 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala kamma continues samsara Dear Mike and Sarah, op 22-08-2003 14:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the excellent quote from the Samohavinodanii! I can never be > reminded to often that even kusala kamma only continues sa.msaara. N: I shall just quote from my : N: I can add: jhana is great kusala, it is praised by the Buddha, but in itself it is not the right practice leading out of the cycle. Nina. 24501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] lotus sutta Dear Icaro, I am glad to hear about the Lotus Sutta that means so much to you and others. I heard about it when traveling in Asia, and was always wondering. Thank you. You downloaded even the whole of the Patthana Book, and are you reading it all in Pali? I have the PTS transl of part of it, and also Guide to Conditional Relations, U Narada. A useful guide, but the common conditions, in numbers are tough! I worked some out, then I found them too difficult. Also the negative ones: not-kamma, not-repetition, etc. very complicated. Nina. op 22-08-2003 11:52 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > What Could I say about the Lotus Sutta ? ... Well, the Lotus Sutta do > it, and more! It?s a real inspiration for all serious > readers of Mahayana Buddhism 24502 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] lotus sutta Dear Nina: "You downloaded even the whole of the Patthana Book, > and are you reading it > all in Pali? " ------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina: By the means of a software called "Webcopier", I could download ALL the content of the www.tipitaka.org. Ah! The entire Pali Tipitaka!! Vinaya, Suttas and Abhidhamma ( plus the Añña, or commentaries) !!! This music is food for me !!!! At the www.tipitaka.org the Patthanapali is complete at five volumes. You see, Nina, before that I would only to read a ASCII version of Abhidhamma I got here - a terrible one, without unicode fonts and so on. As you can guess, I am dancing around with merry because the www.tipitaka.org texts are in a good set of pali fonts, easily readable , well ordered and...COMPLETE!!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Nina: "I have the PTS transl of part of it, and also Guide > to Conditional > Relations, U Narada. A useful guide, but the common > conditions, in numbers > are tough! I worked some out, then I found them too > difficult. Also the > negative ones: not-kamma, not-repetition, etc. very > complicated." --------------------------------------------------- Don´t fret, Nina! By my side, I am using again the Webcopier to download all the Pali-English Dictionary online of PTS. And after that, Shinran´s works! If I find a De Luxe version of Lotus Sutta, I will grab it with my gadgets!!! HEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!! I can recommend you to take a look on www.tipitaka.org. It´s worthy material. I´ve got also many material I picked up on Internet - books online and so on that I will read at the future! Mettaya, Ícaro > > What Could I say about the Lotus Sutta ? ... Well, > the Lotus Sutta do > > it, and more! It?s a real inspiration for all > serious > > readers of Mahayana Buddhism ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24503 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, Apa kabar. Yes, I learnt Bahasa when we lived there for three and a half years. But now I forgot most, no opportunity to keep it up. I love that language, and the country, the people. I felt so at home, like with a family. If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. I am enjoying your nice and sympathetic posts, Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:59 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: Now I keep on learning > buddhist teachings, and try to practice it. > By the way, are you speaking Indonesian, since you mention the dharma group > Bogor ? 24504 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim, op 23-08-2003 17:19 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y... > > As I mentioned to Sarah, I should be back online around Christmas > time. If that is too late for you, I'd be glad to supply you with the > texts you need before I go offline in late September. N: Thank you for your offer and tips about download, I try. Yong Peng wants to ask others first about the new sutta, and there may not be any hurry. J: Wouldn't the Foundation be a good resource to turn to? I've heard that > there are a number of Pali experts there, including K. Supee. And what > about K. Suporn? N: K. Supee does not know English but Kom could write to him.. Yes, it is all right Jim, I understand that correcting me would be too much. Thank you for all your help, and I wish you a good, quiet time, Nina. 24505 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Dear James, I liked this very much, also with the added sutta. Looking forward to more. I also liked the Pyramids and museum, I was with A. Sujin and a Thai group. A. Sujin explained satipatthana while we were walking along pyramids. Thank you, Nina. op 23-08-2003 10:31 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian Museum, and > traveling to the Red Sea. 24506 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Dear Gayan, op 23-08-2003 15:12 schreef Gayan Karunaratne op gkarunaratne@v...: > May you get all the courage to face your demerits. > N: So pleased to hear from you. I like the last wish. We have to know our akusala, not ignore it. Good reminder. So many moments of selfishness pass unnoticed. As Mike said,< learning to recognize the prevalence and subtlety of akusala is not only invaluable in itself, it also points up the indispensibility of detailed understanding (hence abhidhamma) to practice.> I hope to hear from you again, Nina. 24507 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:59pm Subject: side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, > I follow the Buddha's teaching. I throw out > positions diametrical to it. ------------------ Yes, of course. Actually, my inept comments were an unnecessary distraction from this Vism thread. Every step along the way to intellectual understanding is, it seems to me, marked by the sudden redundancy of old opinions. It then becomes an absolute pleasure to throw those old opinions out -- no matter how much we had liked them. (The bigger the better.) I was daring to suggest that you might be hanging on to some redundant opinions. If the Abhidhamma and commentaries say that no concepts are real in the way that dhammas are real, then why be inclined to think otherwise? If, [to dredge up another example], they say that rupa arammana are inherently pleasant or unpleasant then, again, why be inclined to think otherwise? I was trying to suggest this in a kusala way but I suspect my self-opinionated personality was showing through :-) So please, don't mind me; we all have our own ways of progressing and yours are serving perfectly well. Kind regards, Ken H 24508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (I) Nina Thanks for coming in on this. An area with lots to discuss. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, ... N: Dwelling, relatives, traveling, all this are characteristics of a busy life, where one is involved with people, it prevents one from leading a solitary life which is so necessary to concentrate on the meditation subject of samatha. The last one refers to supernormal powers. J: Thanks for pointing out the common element of involvement with people and a busy lifestyle (apart from the last one). I see that Vis IV, 2 elaborates further, giving no less that 18 faults of a monastery (largeness, newness, nearness to a road, famousness, etc) any 1 of which render it unsuitable. As a further refinement, at IV, 19 there are 5 'required' factors for a monastery to be considered favourable. Then there are the so-called lesser impediments (long hair etc) that also need to be severed (Vis IV, 20). We can see just how particular the conditions must be for the development of samatha. Even the successful severing of these impediments apparently may not be enough to see one all the way, as it were. IV, 35 gives a further set of 7 stipulations regarding abode, speech etc. that may be needed to guard the counterpart sign once obtained. No room here for the 'urban jhana' views that seem to be widely held today! More on the rest of your post (the 10th impediment) in a separate post. Jon PS In Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' the list is given as follows: <<< palibodha: 'obstacles' The term for the following things if they obstruct the monk in the strict practice of a subject of meditation: a crowded monastery, travelling, relatives, association with lay folk, gifts, pupils, repairs in the monastery, sickness, study, magical power. The latter, however, may become an obstacle only in developing insight. >>> 24509 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:40am Subject: Next weekend is nearly here Hey KenH (Steve, Andrew, Azita), and all, As the next Cooran weekend is rapidly approaching, and as the theme this time is Dhamma in Daily Life, I hope you are all well advanced in your plan to present your own stimulating paper or lead robust discussions on a riveting article around this theme. Yes? I await with trepidation Andrew's temperature forecast and news of the lurking black bull. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24510 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (II) Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, ... N: [regarding the last of the 10 impediments, the supernormal powers] We read: (III, 56): J: I can see why the supernormal powers are not an impediment for concentration (i.e., because it is through concentration that they are obtained), but I do not recall why they are said to be an impediment for insight. Is it because of subtle attachment to them, causing the person to be distracted from the goal of penetrating the characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena)? I usually think of ignorance or wrong view as being the only true obstacles to the development of insight. N: Studying the impediments helps us to understand the difference between the way of development of insight and of samatha. Why are the first nine impediments not impediments for insight? One's house, social contacts and work are no impediments for insight, because the development of insight is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. They are sabhaava dhammas, they each have their own characteristic that appear. J: Good reminders, Nina. There is nothing about our daily life that need impede the development of insight, even though we may have thoughts to that effect from time to time. That kind of thinking can be recognised for what it is -- just thinking (conditioned by wrong view, no doubt). N: For samatha a certain method is to be applied, but the method for vipassana is no method. The Buddha said to the monks: here are the roots of the trees, but we should remember to whom he was speaking. The monk is supposed not to indulge in social contacts. Several of them had the skill to develop both jhana and vipassana, thus, that is a different matter. Dhammas appear already because of their own conditions in their own time. J: Yes, the roots of trees are an appropriate place for monks to spend their 'spare' time; better there than in a crowded temple, for example. And monks were admonished to develop samatha to the level of jhana (in addition to vipassana, and even those who had already attained enlightenment), since their lifestyle is well suited to that, assuming as you say the necessary foundation of suitable accumulated tendencies in the first place. As to a certain method for samatha, I think this can be so as regards the concentration aspect, but not the kusala/tranquillity aspect (if you see what I mean). N: If awareness does not arise often (and this is common), the reason is that we still have not quite understood what the object of awareness is: any nama or rupa appearing now. We believe we have understood this, but in reality we have not. We have to listen again, reflect again. Moreover: the perfections have not been accumulated sufficiently, they are still defective, or some perfections have been neglected. J: Yes. First comes the understanding at an intellectual level of the connection between *awareness of the nama or rupa appearing now* and *attainment to the path*. I think this step is perhaps the biggest hurdle to surmount; I know that in my own case it was a long time before I really felt comfortable about the idea of awareness of the presently appearing nama or rupa being 'all there is to it', or at least as much as was needed for a person of my (very limited) level of understanding. I remember raising questions about this time and again over the years, looking for other connections as well, thinking that there must also be a central role for samatha, monk's life, etc here, especially given the many references to these aspects in the teachings. But in the end it always came back to the same thing, and the conclusion that while samatha and the rest are certainly part of the overall picture, they are not central to the Buddha's message in the way that satipatthana and vipassana are. Thanks again for the comments. Jon 24511 From: sese2k3 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:45am Subject: Meaning of Ayya Dear all friends, I've joined this group for several weeks ago. But I am not the active one.Now let me introduce myself once more. My name is Sese. I am from Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, I've worked at a newspaper company for 2 years. My knowledge about Buddhism is average, although several years ago I have joined a temporary Silacarini program for about two weeks in Mendut Monastery, Indonesia. I've heard someone who called Ayya Khema. But I'm not really know is "Ayya" a Bhikkhuni? I hope someone can explain it to me. And also I'd rather confuse whether Theravada still has a Bhikkhuni-Sangha or not. Thank you very much for your attention. with Metta, Sese 24512 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/24/03 2:03:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > >I follow the Buddha's teaching. I throw out > >positions diametrical to it. > ------------------ > > Yes, of course. Actually, my inept comments were an > unnecessary distraction from this Vism thread. > > Every step along the way to intellectual understanding > is, it seems to me, marked by the sudden redundancy of > old opinions. It then becomes an absolute pleasure to > throw those old opinions out -- no matter how much we had > liked them. (The bigger the better.) > > I was daring to suggest that you might be hanging on to > some redundant opinions. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not so daring. ;-)) Of *course* I might be doing that. I definitely have opinions - about many things,and some I am quite certain about. What I *can* say is that I probably have 100% certainty with regard to almost none of them. One thing, though - I do not abrogate the responsibility of deciding, albeit always tentatively. Generally speaking, I accept with little questioning, but with constant consideration for purposes of understanding, what appears to have come directly from the Buddha. I truly do not know whether this includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, and I hope for the day that an English translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are available for my direct perusal. At this point, I have to depend on synopses, commentaries (mostly reports of commentaries), and characterizations, some of which material rings true to me and some of which, from my observation, contradicts basic teachings given in the Sutta Pitaka. In particular, the tilakkhana are sacrosanct to me. As I wrote before, I understand it as basic teaching that nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma, that it is sukkha (in the sense of not dukkha), and that *all* other dhammas are sankhata and partake of all the tilakkhana. Trees and cars etc, etc ultimately are fictions. They are the merely conventional, actually nonexistent, intended referents of oft repeated thoughts (concepts and percepts). In truth, from the ultimate perspective, they neither arise nor cease, making them sound like asankhata dhammas similar to nibbana; but the reason for their nonarising and nonceasing is different from that for nibbana - these *do not even exist* except by convention, whereas nibbana is an existent. Thus, except in a derivative sense that requires further explanation, trees and cars etc are not impermanent. Nor are they permanent. They are just plain NOT - except in a manner of speaking. If it is such non-things that one means by 'concepts', then, as I have said before, I would agree that they are not impermanent, but only in the sense that making (nonexistential) assertions and denials about nonexistent things is a pointless process. But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my meaning of that word, then concepts are conditioned mind-door objects, and are not special except for their usefulness and their perils. ---------------------------------------------------- > If the Abhidhamma and > > commentaries say that no concepts are real in the way > that dhammas are real, then why be inclined to think > otherwise? If, [to dredge up another example], they say > that rupa arammana are inherently pleasant or unpleasant > then, again, why be inclined to think otherwise? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I do not believe that what a microbe or a hungry ghost will find pleasant/unpleasant is the same as what a human finds pleasant/unpleasant. Relative to the human condition, I do not doubt that certain sensory inputs are universally pleasant and some universally unpleasant, but that some are not. To me this is fairly obvious. If I'm incorrect, so what? This issue is a very small one, of little import. As far as commentaries are concerned, well, they are there to be perused, considered, and appreciated, but not to be put at the same level as the word of the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I was trying to suggest this in a kusala way but I > suspect my self-opinionated personality was showing > through :-) So please, don't mind me; we all have our > own ways of progressing and yours are serving perfectly > well. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I appreciate our conversations and learn from them, and I very much appreciate your good will. We both muddlealong as well as we can. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24513 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Dear Howard: Howard: " I > truly do not know whether this > includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, and I hope > for the day that an English > translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are > available for my direct > perusal." ----------------------------------------------- Uphilled Upasaka... AHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!! That´s such a dream!!!! Unfortunately I never read the monumental T.W. Rhys-Davies´translation of Dhammasangani - I would like to! With time and patience someday we´ll get on the best booksellers´ shelves a paperbook or hardbound version of The Abhidhamma!!! As one could say, with more translators, more resources, more specialized printers and more readers even you will get a bigger accumulation of good karma and, by consequence, more books on Abhidhamma to buy! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: "At this point, I have to depend on > synopses, commentaries (mostly reports > of commentaries), and characterizations, some of > which material rings true to > me and some of which, from my observation, > contradicts basic teachings given > in the Sutta Pitaka. In particular, the tilakkhana > are sacrosanct to me. As I > wrote before, I understand it as basic teaching that > nibbana is the only > unconditioned dhamma, that it is sukkha (in the > sense of not dukkha)," ----------------------------------------------------- Bullseye, Uprighted Upasaka! As I see it, there´s sometimes a shocking difference between the simpliciry of the Pali language poured down on all Abhidhamma and the exquisite, even strange Pali´s on commentaries like the Visuddhimagga... and the Visuddhimagga Mahatika !!!!! As is written in the Dhammasangani , Nibbana is a ahetu dhamma... undoubtfully!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: " and that > *all* other dhammas are sankhata and partake of all > the tilakkhana. Trees and cars > etc, etc ultimately are fictions. They are the > merely conventional, actually > nonexistent, intended referents of oft repeated > thoughts (concepts and > percepts). In truth, from the ultimate perspective, > they neither arise nor cease, > making them sound like asankhata dhammas similar to > nibbana; but the reason for > their nonarising and nonceasing is different from > that for nibbana - these *do > not even exist* except by convention, whereas > nibbana is an existent." ----------------------------------------------------- From Dhammasangani to Patthanapali in one single ecartée: trees, cars, byclcles, Abhidhamma books, etc, are Aramanapaccayo - object-conditioned mind stuff. My question: is the Hetupaccayo - root condition mind stuff - the substratum of these aramanapaccayo, as a 3D object is the source of a 2D image ? Or are they partake of different definitions ? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: " Ken, I do not believe that what a microbe or > a hungry ghost will find > pleasant/unpleasant is the same as what a human > finds pleasant/unpleasant. > Relative to the human condition, I do not doubt that > certain sensory inputs are > universally pleasant and some universally > unpleasant, but that some are not. To > me this is fairly obvious. If I'm incorrect, so > what? This issue is a very > small one, of little import." ---------------------------------------------------- All human affairs ( call they sensorial inputs or otherwise, this could be irrelevant) can be classified as kusala, akusala... or Abhyakata. They can be weighted on by our own accumulations (karma included) - for example: there is an biological evolution from the amoeba to human being (very different creatures as you can see!)...but who are guarantying this ? The human being, and not the amoeba!!! Could it be otherwise ? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: "As far as commentaries > are concerned, well, they > are there to be perused, considered, and > appreciated, but not to be put at the > same level as the word of the Buddha." > ----------------------------------------------------- Don´t you worry about it, Uplifted Upasaka! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24514 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Dear Nina: Nina: " A. Sujin explained > satipatthana while we were > walking along pyramids." ---------------------------------------------------- WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (well...what could I say ?) --------------------------------------------------- Nina: " but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the > Egyptian Museum, and > > traveling to the Red Sea." ------------------------------------------------- Nothing is perfect!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24515 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:48am Subject: Presence All, Many times have i investigated thus reflected, and many times have results occured. What has arisen as wisdom? No objects exist as theirself or as many have arised as wisdom. There is no lightness without darkness, there is no darkness without lightness has arised as wisdom. Things exist not as in theirself or as many, such falseness the mind dwells in, even so the mind cannot be of nature outside illusion has arised as wisdom. There is no past, no future and no presence hsa arised as wisdom. This are few thigns that have arised as wisdom, also have arised a question to the way of wisdom, what questions has arised, this question has arised. If there cannot be a precense because presencse wouldn't be exist, moreover causes and effect of truth emptiness of reality, how is then one be mindfull in the precense, would not the mind then be illusiv if it's trying to be mindfull in the presence? Is this benefit for wisdom, or is it only benefit for the arising of mindfullness and concentration? /Elias Ps. I've read if it's true i do not know, that theravada strives for the calm and still, but misses wisdom if compered to bodhisattvas dwelling in mahayana. 24516 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Presence Hi, Elias - In a message dated 8/24/03 9:50:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes: > > Ps. I've read if it's true i do not know, that theravada strives for > the calm and still, but misses wisdom if compered to bodhisattvas > dwelling in mahayana. > =========================== Mahayana propaganda, Elias, or, to put a better face on it, misunderstanding of Theravada, confusing it with the Sautrantika school and, more especially, with the Sarvastivadin school. Wisdom is paramount in Theravada. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24517 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 > From Dhammasangani to Patthanapali in one single ecartée: trees, cars, byclcles, > Abhidhamma books, etc, are Aramanapaccayo - object-conditioned mind stuff. > My question: is the Hetupaccayo - root condition mind stuff - the substratum of these > aramanapaccayo, as a 3D object is the source of a 2D image ? Or are they partake of > different definitions ? This is an interesting question--a Platonic construction? I think I've read this hinted at elsewhere. I just think of them as two different conditions. This is probably over my head, though--do you think there's support for this 'substratum' idea in the texts? For example (an odd one maybe), hasituppada-citta (an ahetuka kiriya citta) would be the 'substratum' of what aaramma.napaccayo? By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali word 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't think I've run across it before. mike 24518 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:29am Subject: Buddhist Critique... Hi, Has anyone read, "A Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God" by Gunapala Dharmasiri? A brief review would be appreciated. Thanks. Rahula 24519 From: Larry Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > > Hi all, > > Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has > the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of > states? > > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand > concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. > > Larry Hi all, Perhaps a clue to this problem can be found here: Vism. XVI, 66:[Nibbana]It has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as non- diversification [nippapan~nca]. L: The way I'm reasoning right now, if nibbana manifests as the signless, then the khandhas manifest with signs. I would say one way signs manifest is as the meaning of words. The vague mental image in my mind that arises when I think the word "tree", is a sign. However, I don't think it is necessary for words to accompany meanings (signs). The meanings can arise by themselves, perhaps with the "determining" consciousness. Furthermore, I would say signs are perceptions (sanna), insofar as sanna deals with rather superficial and naive knowledge which is, in the ultimate sense, close but wrong. Insofar as sanna arises with every consciousness, the task of differentiating concept (sign) from reality can only be partially accomplished by mundane "consciousness" and "understanding", as in the three modes of knowing: :perception (sanna), consciousness (vinnana), and understanding (panna). Ultimately, in order to differentiate signs from the signless (nibbana), the "change of lineage" and supramundane consciousnesses are necessary. This is all just theory of course. So, don't anyone get too excited. It's all superficial and naive. Larry 24520 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Presence Hello Howard I did read it in a book where dalai lama describes meditation with parts of texts from Bhavanakrama by Kamalashila. In the book "The Sates of Meditation" it can be read where Kamalashila have wroten it. It says over and over how theravadans miss parts of the teachings, and just develops samadhi and small parts of wisdom. as theravadans not seing the truth, just parts of it, ex to see things do not have a self, but haven't investigated it. As I also wrote in the mail, the emptiness that can be very well read ind escribed ways in the 'heart sutra'(mahayana) was for me, the more intresting teaching. But as we read theravadas suttas, we do not go so much into this subject, we don't investigate anatta. ofcurse this is individual, and some monks in the theravada do not miss this 'emptiness wisdom', but to just say and understand 'there's no self in objects' is not enough. it's not completed wisdom. So, thinka bout yourself, and thinka bout if you had nibbana in your hands, you could eat it or wait for it. mahayanas wait untill every being have eatin eat, then theirself do it it. In theravada it seems we first care mostly only for ourself, untill we reach nibbana. now we can learn others so they also can reach nibbana. then we will not enter samsara more. but in mahayanit's the opposite, they choose reach the parinibban after all others have done it. If one ask a theravada monk, "whya re you here as a monk?" the answer might just be "to become enlightened and destroy all suffering". This way as theravadas can be seen unsoft and hard, as we ourself may seem more important because we choose nibbana as fast as we can. One have to understand WHY one gives love and less suffering to others by reaching parinibbana and leaves samsara. This will make the theravada much more joyfull and not making such differences with other buddhist paths. /elias > Mahayana propaganda, Elias, or, to put a better face on it, > misunderstanding of > Theravada, confusing it with the Sautrantika school and, more especially, > with the Sarvastivadin school. Wisdom is paramount in Theravada. > > With metta, > Howard 24521 From: Larry Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > > Hi all, > > Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has > the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of > states? > > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand > concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. > > Larry Hi all, Perhaps a clue to this problem can be found here: Vism. XVI, 66:[Nibbana]It has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as non- diversification [nippapan~nca]. L: The way I'm reasoning right now, if nibbana manifests as the signless, then the khandhas manifest with signs. I would say one way signs manifest is as the meaning of words. The vague mental image in my mind that arises when I think the word "tree", is a sign. However, I don't think it is necessary for words to accompany meanings (signs). The meanings can arise by themselves, perhaps with the "determining" consciousness. Furthermore, I would say signs are perceptions (sanna), insofar as sanna deals with rather superficial and naive knowledge which is, in the ultimate sense, close but wrong. Insofar as sanna arises with every consciousness, the task of differentiating concept (sign) from reality can only be partially accomplished by mundane "consciousness" and "understanding", as in the three modes of knowing: :perception (sanna), consciousness (vinnana), and understanding (panna). Ultimately, in order to differentiate signs from the signless (nibbana), the "change of lineage" and supramundane consciousnesses are necessary. This is all just theory of course. So, don't anyone get too excited. It's all superficial and naive. Larry 24522 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Mike: Mike: " This is an interesting question--a Platonic > construction? I think I've read > this hinted at elsewhere. I just think of them as > two different conditions. > This is probably over my head, though--do you think > there's support for this > 'substratum' idea in the texts?" ----------------------------------------------------- It seems a little. Platonic and neo-platonic works - Plotinus, Numenius of Apanea and Proclus - share many of these remarks...but they insist in the concept of a soul immortal, pure, eternal, etc, as a term of their reasonings. At this particular point theravada buddhism is indeed light-years ahead! Different conditions...hmmm... perhaps yes. At Patthanapali ( if I could translate its beginning right!!!) I found that hetupaccayo has a "sameness" relationship with objects of same class or dhamma at a rupa level "...hetusampayutakanam dhammanam tamsammuthañañanca rupanam..." while Aramanapaccayo has a liason with Cakkhuviññana, manoviññana, etc (all six elements) that forms a mental image in our minds. If you suppose that an object at your mind has a same class of rupa than a real object just ahead our senses, so they share the same conditions. If not, they don´t. That´s my viewpoint about these particular text at Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. ----------------------------------------------------- Mike:" For example (an odd one maybe), hasituppada-citta > (an ahetuka kiriya citta) > would be the 'substratum' of what aaramma.napaccayo?" ----------------------------------------------------- A smilling Arahant could be a very rare event...but since it is a ahetuka kiriya citta ( embodied at the six senses as defined, despite to be ahetu),so there could be an Aramanapaccaya related to it. Why not ? ------------------------------------------------- Mike: " By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali word > 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't > think I've run across it before." -------------------------------------------------- Yes!!! At my opinion, the hetupaccaya could be a solid foundation (hetthaatala) of the Aramanapaccayo that lies on it, as a basis of a stupa! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Larry, op 21-08-2003 02:00 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: Is nibbana different from the attainment of cessation? Nibbana is > unproduced. N: Yes, nibbana is the object of lokuttara cittas. The attainment of cessation is not lokuttara. After emerging phalacittas arise which experience nibbana. (Vis. XXIII,47). Positively produced etc. I have dounts about this translation, I would have to know the Pali. All these notes are very complicated. I read in Vis. XXIII, 52: it is not sabhaava. And not classifiable as conditioned or unconditioned, mundane or supramundane. Then the not 18, as quoted by you. Nina. 24524 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:48am Subject: FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 9. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:54:47 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Meanings of dhamma, no 9. no. 9 The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pu~n~na, virtue: <"Dhammo have rakkhati dhammacaarin"ti evamaadiisu pu~n~ne. In a passage such as ³The dhamma truly protects the person who practises it², dhamma refers to virtue.> The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains: ³Dhamma well-practised issues in bliss² (Sn.v. 184), dhamma means merit (or kusala), gu.na. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as disciplinary offense in a similar way as above: <"Cattaaro paaraajikaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu aapattiya.m. In passages such as ³four disciplinary offenses involving defeat (paaraajika)², dhamma means disciplinary offense. > The Saddaniti explains dhamma as knowable (neyya): <"Kusalaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu ~neyye. In a passage as ³wholesome dhammas etc.² the word dhamma means what is knowable, what is to be known.> N: Neyya: gerund of neti: to lead, guide, understand. neyya: to be instructed, understood. The Saddaniti, as we have seen above, defines dhamma as sabhaava in a similar way: N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is classified as these three dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, abyaakataa dhammaa. They are sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature (or characteristic), and these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is always kusala, akusala is always akusala. They are not abstractions: when their specific characteristics appear, they are are to be understood, neyya. Their true nature can be known. The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains dhamma as neyya: The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear. ***** Nina. 24525 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Nina: > Nina: " A. Sujin explained > > satipatthana while we were > > walking along pyramids." > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > (well...what could I say ?) > > --------------------------------------------------- Actually, I would find it very discourteous to be droning on about satipatthana while visiting the pyramids. They should be savored and pondered in as much silence as possible. There is a time and a place for everything and I don't think that was the proper time or place...but to each their own. Metta, James 24526 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:15pm Subject: Re: Meaning of Ayya Hello Sese, Ayyaa is a Pali word which means Lady (or Sister). More about Ayya Khema can be found at this link: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/a_khema.htm There is controversy within the Theravada tradition surrounding the term Bhikkhuni (female monk). There are some people who believe the Bhikkhuni Sangha died out in Sri Lanka a thousand years ago, was not revived, and is not able to be revived. Those who hold this view allow that women can, at most, be eight or ten precept nuns. Thus, the four-fold community of fully ordained nuns, fully ordained monks, lay women and lay men, which the Buddha declared was integral to the success of the Buddhadhamma, has been absent from all Theravada countries for one thousand years. Other people believe the Bhikkhuni Sangha can be, and has been, revived in Sri Lanka. Those who believe it legitimately can, and has been, revived are working towards the objective of offering and supporting this training pathway to increasing numbers of women. My understanding is that there are now Bhikkhuni Training Centres in Sri Lanka at Newgala, Panadura and Kalundewa (Dambulla) and Anuradhapura in Sri Lanka. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sese2k3" wrote: > Dear all friends, > > I've joined this group for several weeks ago. But I am not the > active one.Now let me introduce myself once more. > > My name is Sese. I am from Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, I've worked at a > newspaper company for 2 years. My knowledge about Buddhism is > average, although several years ago I have joined a temporary > Silacarini program for about two weeks in Mendut Monastery, Indonesia. > > I've heard someone who called Ayya Khema. But I'm not really know > is "Ayya" a Bhikkhuni? I hope someone can explain it to me. And also > I'd rather confuse whether Theravada still has a Bhikkhuni-Sangha or > not. > > Thank you very much for your attention. > > with Metta, > > Sese 24527 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarification on attainment of nibbana. This subject will come up again later, perhaps years from now, when we get to this section of the book. However, if you see something of immediate importance that needs clarification, either in Ven. ~Nanamoli's translation or understanding, perhaps we could request some assistance from Bhikkhu Bodhi, or, if he is too busy, perhaps even A.K. Warder (is he still out and about?). Larry 24528 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Presence Hi, Elias - In a message dated 8/24/03 11:47:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes: > Hello Howard > > I did read it in a book where dalai lama describes meditation with > parts of texts from Bhavanakrama by Kamalashila. > In the book "The Sates of Meditation" it can be read where Kamalashila > have wroten it. > > It says over and over how theravadans miss parts of the teachings, > and just develops samadhi and small parts of wisdom. > as theravadans not seing the truth, just parts of it, > ex to see things do not have a self, but haven't investigated it. > > As I also wrote in the mail, the emptiness that can be very well > read ind escribed ways in the 'heart sutra'(mahayana) was for me, > the more intresting teaching. > But as we read theravadas suttas, we do not go so much into this > subject, we don't investigate anatta. > > ofcurse this is individual, and some monks in the theravada > do not miss this 'emptiness wisdom', but to just say and > understand 'there's no self in objects' is not enough. > it's not completed wisdom. > > So, thinka bout yourself, and thinka bout if you had nibbana in your > hands, you could eat it or wait for it. > mahayanas wait untill every being have eatin eat, > then theirself do it it. > In theravada it seems we first care mostly only for ourself, > untill we reach nibbana. now we can learn others > so they also can reach nibbana. then we will not enter samsara more. > but in mahayanit's the opposite, they choose reach the parinibban > after all others have done it. > > If one ask a theravada monk, "whya re you here as a monk?" > the answer might just be > "to become enlightened and destroy all suffering". > > This way as theravadas can be seen unsoft and hard, > as we ourself may seem more important because > we choose nibbana as fast as we can. > > One have to understand WHY one gives love and less suffering > to others by reaching parinibbana and leaves samsara. > This will make the theravada much more joyfull and > not making such differences with other buddhist paths. > > /elias > ========================== Classical Tibetan Buddhism doesn't know about Theravada. It knows about the Sarvastivadins (and the Sautrantikas and some others), which it sometimes calls "Hinayana". Sometimes, on the other hand, it refers to Hinayana as a limited part of the path within the full Mahayana-Vajrayana path of practice. Most modern Tibetan Buddhists, including the Dalai Lama, are quite respectful of Theravada. Lama Surya Das, a Dzogchen master, is quite good friends with well known Theravadins. Moreover, 'Theravada' is an umbrella term with quite a broad span. The main thing about Theravada, however, is that it is based on the Tipitaka, which is truly the Buddha word. Everything that is the real teaching of the Buddha can be found there, including the Bodhisatta career, and emptiness/corelessness of persons and objects. Also, aspiration to Buddhahood is a recognized goal of Theravada. As far as the matter of "compassion and Theravada" is concerned, well, I do think you need to meet some more Theravadins! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24529 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:59pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, welcome, we are living in Bogor. Ph no. 08121108290. metta, selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor ------original message------ From: nina van gorkom To: Date: 23 Aug 2003 18:52:20 Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, Apa kabar. Yes, I learnt Bahasa when we lived there for three and a half years. But now I forgot most, no opportunity to keep it up. I love that language, and the country, the people. I felt so at home, like with a family. If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. I am enjoying your nice and sympathetic posts, Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:59 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: Now I keep on learning > buddhist teachings, and try to practice it. > By the way, are you speaking Indonesian, since you mention the dharma group > Bogor ? 24530 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, Howard & Mike, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. > .... > I think we all agree with your comment. ... snip Excuse my ignorance but could anyone define chandaraga/lust for me ? Do we mean: a) extreme desire for sensual pleasure, b) extreme desire in general, c) any small bit of sensual desire, d) any small bit of desire in general ? And how is lust cut off ? is it: Seclusion from sensual pleasures ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: ... > Seclusion from sensual pleasures is necessary. ...snip > * That reminds me of the following incident: > > "Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, > cut off his own penis. ... ouch! > They reported this matter to the Blessed One > (who said), 'When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish > man cut off something else.'" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/ch10.html ... what is it that needs to be cut off ? > > In the same vein, it would be foolish to blindfold oneself, having > one's ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied > and so on thinking that this would eradicate addiction and > intoxication to senses. Any comments are appreciated. with metta, nori 24531 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:35pm Subject: DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Friends, When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling through a limited number of messages on a web page to be inconvient. I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the text of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear on a web-page). I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of software and brute force. The "software" part is quick, but the "brute force" part takes time (I will likely be "current" by December. In the "files" section of DSG, you will find five zipped Word documents. Each Word document covers 1000 messages and is about 1000 pages long (the zip files are each about 1 meg in size). I will not be adding any more files because a rough calculation shows that there will not be enough space in the files section of the DSG to hold all of the files. I ask those of you who wish to get a "Christmas present" from me to drop me an email at "rob.moult@j..." and I will snail mail you a CD with the complete set of files. Enjoy! Metta, Rob M :-) 24532 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 8 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 8. How many kinds of understanding are there? 1. Firstly, as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states, it is of one kind. 2. As mundane and supramundane it is of two kinds. 3. Likewise as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on, 4. As the defining of mentality and materiality, 5. As accompanied by joy or by equanimity, 6. As the planes of seeing and of development. 7. It is of three kinds as consisting in what is reasoned, consisting in what is learnt (heard), and consisting in development. 8. Likewise as having a limited, exalted, or measureless object, 9. As skill in improvement, detriment, and means, 10. As interpreting the internal, and so on. 11. It is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths, 12. And as the four discriminations. (4) ---------------------------- (4) "Pa.tisambhidaa" is usually rendered by 'analysis' (see e.g. "Points of Controversy" -- "Kathaavatthu" -- pp. 377ff.). But the Tipi.taka explanations of the four "pa.tisambhidaa" suggest no emphasis on analysis rather than synthesis. Pm. gives the following definition of the term: 'Knowledge that is classified (pabhedagata = put into a division) under meaning (attha) as capable of effecting the explanation and definition of specific characteristics of the meaning class (meaning division) is called "attha-pa.tisambhidaa"; and so with the other three (Pm. 436). 'Discrimination' has been chosen for "pa.tisambhidaa" because, while it has the sense of 'division', it does not imply an opposite process as 'analysis' does. Also it may be questioned whether the four are well described as 'entirely logical': 'entirely epistemological' might perhaps be both less rigid and nearer; for they seem to cover four interlocking fields, namely: meanings of statements and effects of causes (etc.), statements of meanings and causes of effects (etc.), language as restricted to etymological rules of verbal expression, and clarity (or perspicuous inspiration) in marshalling the other three. 24533 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Hi all, I guess we may as well begin discussing the 4 divisions ('discriminations') of knowledge: meaning and result, assertion and cause, etymology, and eloquence. There will be a paragraph or two later in Vism. that discusses this but it is such an odd way to divide up knowledge, I think it will take a while to understand. I have the book "Path of Discrimination" but can't make heads or tails of it. I don't even see how it is a path. If anyone has the "Points of Controversy" or any tipitaka source that discusses this, any additional input would be welcome. I guess my main question for now is how is knowledge of etymology and eloquence panna? What is panna's object here? Is knowledge of meaning and knowledge of eloquence the beginning and end of this path? Larry 24534 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi all (anyone interested to comment), Initially I made this post due to observing the passive nature and aloofness of buddhists in general to worldly affairs. I, as well, as I practice and learn dhamma have noticed myself more and more passive to worldly affairs. But in my state of passivity, I feel something underlying which feels very wrong in the position I take. I posed a question (in this group) of whether it was fair and ethical for buddhists to hold this position: i.e. whether it is living off of alms food, or not taking part in worldly affairs. The gist of the responses was that: > > Howard: > > The bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, in addition to what I have > > said before > > about them, are the primary preservers of the Dhamma, and for > > this I think we > > should be enormously grateful. > > ------------------------------------------------- ... This would be so (to be grateful, and excuse them from mundane tasks), if the dhamma is indeed an ethical position to hold in the first place. And so, the question I will pose in the following example by analogy is whether the position of dhamma is an ethical position to take. Before I present my example, let me state that there is no question as to whether the teaching of Buddha Dhamma is beneficial to those with mental dispositions which cause suffering. The only thing I question here (as ethical) is the position of aloofness/detachment and non-activity in worldly affairs, as well as the dispensing of the suggestion of living off of alms food. Here is my example: To explicate my point, I will reduce our entire global community of billions of people to a nomadic tribe of 5 people. 3 are men who hunt and 2 are women who gather and prepare food. 1 of them is the Buddha. Let us say that they are all suffering from starvation and are approaching death. The Buddha teaches to them that they suffer from delusion/wrong view, from desire (sensual pleasures, becoming/not becoming, etc.) or aversion, or from not realizing Annica (impermanence), not realizing Anatta (not self), etc., etc. While these things Buddha teaches might dispel suffering for those with these mental dispositions, this is not the case here. The case here for suffering is very simple: There is no food !!!; They are starving ! and they are approaching death. Likewise, the solution to this suffering is very simple: To attain food !!!; To act to attain food !!! No amount of meditation or mental conditioning will solve this suffering. Likewise is the case of suffering for much of the world. Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but instead due to physical conditions. Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to alleviate the condition! So then in my example of the tribe of five: Would it be fair and ethical to remain aloof from the others; to not act (to help attain food)? Would it be fair and ethical to ask the others for alms while refusing to help them gain sustenance through work and toil/suffering since he has taught them the dhamma (which does them no good to alleviate their suffering from starvation)? comments are appreciated. with metta, nori ---------------- 24535 From: june_tg Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: food craving help dear sarah, confidence comes from putting the buddha's teachings into practice, one by one. first you start with a little faith in the goodness/wholesomeness of his teachings (especially after your attachments and longings have put you through hell), which will then grow into a higher level of confidence once you have seen the effects of putting to practice his teachings in your daily life. although i should also say that even though we have confidence, sometimes it is still very easy to get discouraged. but nothing worthwhile comes easy, so i guess the best thing to do is to never give up. the mind is a tricky thing. my food cravings are gone. they were impermanent after all. we just need to have a little patience. may you grow in your meditation practice (if you are meditating, or may you start if you aren't)...and may you and everyone else here and all living beings everywhere be released from all forms of suffering as soon as possible. all the best june --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi June, > > Thanks for joining us and for raising your question here. As James > implied, your qu was a little unusual here (but not out-of-place), just > like him;-) (Hi James, waiting for Egypt Diary2;-)). > > Actually, I really liked the kind and helpful responses James, Icaro, > Howard, Mike & Christine gave a lot. I think it's good to give support in > this area whilst looking at our purpose at the same time. I think I see it > rather like the `living in solitude' or dressing simply in white threads. > It's good to give assistance to others, whilst recognising it's not for > everyone and won't of itself take us closer to nibbana;-) > > --- june_tg wrote: > thanks for all > > > i guess i should mention i am not american, i just grew up there. > .... > Hopefully you'll tell us a little more about yourself in your own time, > June. > .... > > the only reason i am keeping the 8 precepts is because lately my > > confidence in buddhism grew and i have come to believe that there is > > something special about meditation. i find that not eating is quite > > supportive when you want to get into that state of calm. otherwise the > > body is too heavy. > ..... > I think there are many advantages in eating less....including health > considerations and more time for DSG;-)(Also, less shopping, preparing, > cooking, washing-up....;-)) > ..... > >some days things go well, but other days i have > > this food craving and i feel so restless that i can't get myself to > > sit. i guess i should try some walking meditation. does anyone know a > > good book or website about that? > ..... > Perhaps, as others have suggested, you could follow a modified version of > the 8 precepts and have the same benefit of lightness without the > pressure. It can be very difficult to follow exactly in a lay life, > especially when working, travelling or spending time with friends and > family. > > A few other suggestions: > - if you're following a modified version, try having a little fruit and > nuts mid-afternoon > - have a couple of desert dates in the morning and later if you're low in > energy. Or some dried fruit... > - make some veggie broth and finely strain - drink the liquid for energy > rather than tea or coffee perhaps. Diluted apple juice is good or soya > milk.... > - I think it's better to avoid caffeine completely in the afternoon if > possible and to try to go to bed early and get up early. I think a late > routine makes it harder to follow this precept. > - I'm sure it would help to get some exercise - swimming, hiking, Tai chi > - whatever you like. > > June, perhaps you could tell us more about how and why your confidence in > Buddhism has grown. Do you think it's possible for your understanding and > practice to develop even when you're having food cravings and unable to > sit quietly? > > I'm sorry, I don't know any books or websites that are relevant, but there > are many references to the Buddhist monks drinking congee (cooked rice) > water first thing in the morning for any digestive problems and of course > many references to attachment to food. I think you'll find it helpful to > read these past messages and maybe follow the links as they include many > of these references. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14298 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14408 > > Finally a quote from the Questions of King Milinda. I'm reading it in the > Sammohavinodanii,2179(PTS Dispeller of Delusion) now: > Ven Nagasena says: > "...your Majesty, this ten-thousandfold world system carries one Buddha; > it carries the qualities of only one Tathagata. If a second Buddha were to > appear, this ten-thousandfold world system would not carry him. It would > waver and tremble and rock and swoop and swerve and tumble and roll over > and capsize, and it would not come to rest. > > `Or indeed, your Majesty, just as a man might eat as much food as he > wished and, enjoying it and being filled up to his gullet, might be sated, > appeased, filled, stuffed, dazed and stiff as a board, would he be happy > if he were to eat as much again?' `No, venerable sir, if he ate as much > again he would die.' `So indeed, your Majesty, this then-thousandfold > world system carries one Buddha ...would not come to rest.' " > > Metta and look forward to more of your unusual qus, > > Sarah > ====== 24536 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Larry, op 24-08-2003 17:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't > understand >> concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. N: Panna understands all kinds of objects, also concepts, why not? It knows when the object is a concept, it knows what a concept, pa~n~natti, is, different from paramattha dhammas. Nina 24537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Dear Howard, op 24-08-2003 13:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I hope for the day that an English > translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are available for my direct > perusal. N:Yes, the PTS transl of Dhammasanghani: Buddhist Psychological Ethics. and Patthana: part of it: Condiitonal Relations. Nina. 24538 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/24/03 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Here is my example: > > To explicate my point, I will reduce our entire global community of > billions of people to a nomadic tribe of 5 people. 3 are men who hunt > and 2 are women who gather and prepare food. 1 of them is the Buddha. > Let us say that they are all suffering from starvation and are > approaching death. > > The Buddha teaches to them that they suffer from delusion/wrong view, > from desire (sensual pleasures, becoming/not becoming, etc.) or > aversion, or from not realizing Annica (impermanence), not realizing > Anatta (not self), etc., etc. > > While these things Buddha teaches might dispel suffering for those > with these mental dispositions, this is not the case here. > > The case here for suffering is very simple: There is no food !!!; > They are starving ! and they are approaching death. > > Likewise, the solution to this suffering is very simple: To attain > food !!!; To act to attain food !!! > > No amount of meditation or mental conditioning will solve this > suffering. > > Likewise is the case of suffering for much of the world. > > Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but > instead due to physical conditions. > > Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. > money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) > > The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case > (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to > alleviate the condition! > > So then in my example of the tribe of five: Would it be fair and > ethical to remain aloof from the others; to not act (to help attain > food)? Would it be fair and ethical to ask the others for alms while > refusing to help them gain sustenance through work and toil/suffering > since he has taught them the dhamma (which does them no good to > alleviate their suffering from starvation)? > > > comments are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > =========================== You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and leading untold numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a farmer, food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is claimed about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to freedom (and, of course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me that your position is a bit silly. All beings live, suffer, and die, and then live, suffer, and die - again and again and again. Should we be kind to others and provide for their physical, emotional, and other needs along the way? Of course we should!! And practice, genuine practice, of the Dhamma will only serve to heighten our compassion and our response to the needs of human and other beings. Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are among the most active people in the world in helping others and working for peace, harmony, and good will. Out of ten perfections, dana is the first. But providing and safeguarding the means to the ultimate, complete, and final cessation of suffering, pointing out the path to the deathless and safeguarding the possibility of walking that path is incomparably superior to other acts of goodness, and is the greatest act of dana. This is the immense gift that the Buddha has provided to sentient beings and that the Sanghas, both the Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sanghas and the Ariyasangha, have helped perpetuate. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24539 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/25/03 12:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 24-08-2003 13:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I hope for the day that an English > >translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are available for my direct > >perusal. > N:Yes, the PTS transl of Dhammasanghani: Buddhist Psychological Ethics. and > Patthana: part of it: Condiitonal Relations. > Nina. > > ========================== Are you saying that these are available? If yes, could you please give more information? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24540 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi again, Nina - I've found these, both at the Pali Text Society web site and at the Pariyatti site. They are indeed available, but rather expensive for me: $49 for Buddhist Psychological Ethics and $136 for the 2 volume set of Conditional Relations. When my Fall classes begin early inSeptember, I may request that my college library purchase copies. I don't know whether I'll meet with success in this, but it's worth a try. Another prof and I are currently working on setting up a "Queens College Buddhist Association", and that may be an arguing point in support of the acquisition. (Actually, it occurs to me now, that if we get administrative support for such a club - it would be a faculty/staff club with activities open to students and the public as well - perhaps we might even get a limited budget for books and journals of our own!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24541 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:06pm Subject: Re: DSG Messages in a Word Document ---Put me down on your XMas list Rob. I looked at the files. Excellent! Could you tell me how to do what you did? Thanks Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my > mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past > posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling > through a limited number of messages on a web page to be inconvient. > I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the text > of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear on > a web-page). > > I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of > software and brute force. The "software" part is quick, but > the "brute force" part takes time (I will likely be "current" by > December. In the "files" section of DSG, you will find five zipped > Word documents. Each Word document covers 1000 messages and is about > 1000 pages long (the zip files are each about 1 meg in size). > > I will not be adding any more files because a rough calculation > shows that there will not be enough space in the files section of > the DSG to hold all of the files. I ask those of you who wish to get > a "Christmas present" from me to drop me an email > at "rob.moult@j..." and I will snail mail you a CD with the > complete set of files. > > Enjoy! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24542 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Howard, With respect, I feel you have completely missed my point, and also feel your opening few lines were with intent of ridicule (I think that speech ("caustic" as you say) is wrong speech, no?). Howard: > =========================== > You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and leading untold > numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a farmer, > food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! ...This is not what I am saying. > Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is claimed > about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to freedom (and, of > course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me that your > position is a bit silly. If you read my argument more carefully again, you will see that my point is that my belief is this: that dhamma is not a path of freedom from dukkha (suffering) for all people. Not all people suffer from mental dispositions, but instead from real physical conditions (e.g. lack of, (or threatening of) life sustenance); Buddha dhamma will do nothing for this - Only changing of the momentary physical condition can alleviate this. > Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are > among the most active people in the world While this may be true for lay buddhists I do not think this is the case for the ordained. I do not think monks living in seclusion in the forest, living off of alms, take part in worldly affairs and concerns. And so I question, and raise discussion on whether it is right/ethical for the ultimate goal of Buddhism partly being - to become detached/aloof from the world; to disregard the world; to live off alms with no posession (thus no physical communal functionality); and finally to the ultimate state of detachment - self extinguish- ment - nibbana . Please do not ridicule me for questioning the dhamma. If Buddha was alive he would have wanted me to. I would appreciate helpful replies in my inquiry. with metta, nori 24543 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:22pm Subject: Re: DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---Put me down on your XMas list Rob. > I looked at the files. Excellent! > Could you tell me how to do what you did? > Thanks > Robertk Here are the steps: Step 1 - Click Messages, Go To Message 1, Click "Expand Messages" Step 2 - Under File, Select "Save As" Step 3 - Click "Next" (displays next 15 messages) Step 4 - Repeat Step 2 & Step 3 1600 times (really boring) Step 5 - Go into DOS, do a DIR command (with appropriate switches) and pipe the output to a "files.TXT" file (this creates a "files.TXT" file that includes all of the file names) Step 6 - Run a software program that reads the "files.TXT" file to get a file name, reads in the saved web page (.HTM) as an ASCII file, parses the contents to extract relevant info and saves the information in a "DSG.TXT" text file. Repeat the process until 1000 messages have been parsed. (FYI - I wrote the program in Visual Basic) Step 7 - Load the "DSG.TXT" file into Word as an ASCII file and save it as a .DOC file. Step 8 - Use "Find/Replace" feature of Word to replace remaining embedded HTML codes and delete embedded advertisements. (also boring) Sorry you asked? Metta, Rob M :-) 24544 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > I don't mean to intrude, but I was wondering if you can share some of > your experiences with us that you had in Sri Lanka ? > > I very often contemplate selling all of my possessions, quitting my > job and taking off to a Theravada Buddhist dominated country such as > Thailand or Sri Lanka to live a life of contemplation. ..... Nori, you’re not intruding at all - or rather, that is what the list is for;-) We’re hear to discuss, consider and explore experiences and understandings of the (Theravada) teachings together. Even so, this is very difficult for me to answer- like Jim found,it’s hard to know where to start and finish. Perhaps others like Mike can share their far more extensive experiences of solitary and contemplative living;-) ***** It’s nearly 30 years since I spent that time living in a forest monastery, really living in solitude and seldom speaking at all, strictly following 8 precepts and devoted to my intense (Mahasi-style) meditation practices. I had deliberately gone to the monastery -- which I knew about from a friend I’d met in Bodh Gaya -- to become a nun and only had two simple Indian dresses and a small bag of dhamma books by the time I arrived, penniless. I had long ago left a good research job offer, a doting boyfriend and a large close family behind. I still had a very special watch I’d been given as a 21st/come farewell gift when I’d left England about a year before. One day I even donated this to the Sangha and then I often had no clue about days and dates. I found out that there were no nuns or bhikkhuni order but got over this disappointment and happily settled into my simple lifestyle. As I mentioned my cell was tiny - just a wooden plank inside. The women’s section was far away from the bhikkhus who lived in much larger kutis in the forest. I never visited the rest of the forest and I only ever saw the bhikkhus, apart from the head bhikkhu, for ceremonies such as on full-moon days when large numbers of lay people would dress in white and visit the temple to pay respect, offer dana and listen to sermons. I didn’t leave the temple at all for about 6 months and had no contact at all with the outside world apart from a very occasional super snail-mail letter. The only writing I did would be an occasional brief reply and as instructed by the head monk, a detailed diary in exercise books of my meditation experiences. What I particularly remember (perhaps because we have a typhoon in Hong Kong today), were the tropical storms, the almost open air living, all the creatures, the orphanage children in the temple grounds and the sweet little lady who used to look after me. We never spoke a word -- she spoke no English -- but she was really devoted to me and cried and cried when I left. I visited a few years later and she was still quite overcome with emotion. Often, we were the only women there. Other guests would come and just stay a few nights only. She’d sweep the common areas, bring me a most delicious herbal broth in the very early morning, try to make sure the tub of water used for body and clothes washing was kept full and most importantly for me, after the bhikkhus had finished eating, she’d collect what she could from the remains of the offerings for my lunch. As I was strictly following the noon precept, eating in slow motion (as Erik used to describe here) and as I’ve always been allergic to chillies, it was often quite difficult to eat at all healthily. Sometimes I’d just have a little plain rice. On good days I’d have a piece of papaya and curd in addition to the rice and vegetables. Also, it was only a couple of months or so since I’d been sick with hepatitis in Nepal and so I really had to be quite careful not to cause stress to my liver. Inevitably, I became very mal-nourished and very thin. When I had arrived, I had long, thick golden hair. It had started coming out in tufts and I was physically falling apart a few months later. Eventually, there was general concern about this and it became one of the reasons I very reluctantly persuaded to start eating something later in the day. I remember taking a bus to the market and selecting a couple of avocados which seemed to be just what I needed. In any case, by this time - around 6 months since I had arrived, my understanding of the Dhamma had totally changed, mainly as it seemed by a chance meeting with Ann Marshall. As I said, I was an earnest Mahasi-style meditator and had previously had spent several months in Bodh Gaya studying and meditating under A.Munindra’s kind and gentle guidance. Although I had had almost daily discussion sesions with Munindra on the teachings, still it was the meditation practice that was considered to be the practice and I was very serious about it. (I had also spent a little time with Mr Goenka in Bodh Gaya and later on a course in Hyderabad on my way down to Sri Lanka from McLeod Ganj. Ken H, it was like a heveanly break from 3rd class Indian travel in spite of the long hours of sitting in a lotus position on a hard floor. Only Mr Goenka sat in a chair as I recall;-)) ..... > I am not certain if you went there to live a life of solitude and > contemplation, but if you did, I thought it would also be relevant to > the ongoing discussion (on solitude) and would be helpful to those > like me contemplating doing this. ..... What I had understood was that if something was ‘right’ then the more one followed it, the more ‘right’ it became. And so, for 12, 14, 16 hours a day, I followed the Mahasi-style training exactly and of course had many of the weird and wonderful experiences others have had and like Dan has described, would attribute them all to great insights. I’d have a weekly session with the Head monk, reading out my diary extracts and occasionally I’d have correspondence with Munindra. I was only ever encouraged in all these assumptions and experiences. “Carry on, carry on”, I’d be told by the monk. I’m sure I became something of a freak, wandering around my part of the temple in slow motion, wasting away but being known as the one who was really practising the teachings. Deep down, I think I must have known something was badly wrong. For a start, my family badly needed my assistance in England and apart from sending occasional kind notes, I wasn’t helping and it disturbed me. I knew my health was not at all good and moving slower and slower was not going to help. I was also beginning to question the practice for the first time and reading the few books I had, including Soma’s Satipatthana sutta and books by Narada, Nyanponika and Nyanamoli very carefully after hardly opening a book for months. I think that Venice, the lady who was in charge of the lay-administration of the temple, must have told Ann when she visited about her concerns about me and my health and strict meditation. No one spoke to me, but one day, on my wooden bed when I returned from some walking meditation, I found a copy of the manuscript of Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’. I read the first page and ‘bingo’, as Icaro might say, all the lights went on and it seemed as though the penny dropped for the first time. Although I had heard and read so much about anatta, no-self and no-control, there had been such a strong idea of ‘making’ awareness happen, with no idea about the real objects of awareness, i.e. namas and rupas. Concepts and realities had all been one blur. When I’d been eating, I’d been aware of ‘eating’, 'eating' and so on, without knowing anthing about what is really experienced. I listened with Ann to the tapes she had from the discussions in Banares that Nina wrote about recently and in spite of parts in Thai and Pali, Khun Sujin’s words were like a priceless gift to me instantly. What she said about living in the world of dreams and concepts without any understanding of the present reality, i.e the thinking or seeing or visible object at this moment, was momentous, even though I thought I knew all about living in the present. I burned all my meditation diaries, stopped all my meditation practices at once and started to read the Visuddhimagga and one or two other texts with Ann, snacking, chatting and building up strength. I wrote to my mother to offer to come home and help her and my father reunite after a stormy separation, borrowed the fare for the cheapest flight back via Moscow (Moscow in December in thongs and a thin Indian dress!!)and have never since felt the slightest inclination or need to do anything in particular or be in any particular place or lifestyle in order to develop satipatthana. Returning home was hard - I had to go straight into a tough job working with delinquent adolescents with very long hours and then in my free time try to help family and so on, paying off debts at the same time. However, I was so happy to feel ‘free’ from the great burden of searching for the truth or following a particular ritual. Nori, I had no idea this would be such a long ramble. I don’t know if it’s helpful at all. In answer to your questions, I think that the most important thing is the ‘straightening of views’ and the right theoretical understanding of the Dhamma in the first place. I could give you many references in support for this. Simply put, I think that the more our views are straightened, the less one thinks about what is the right or better place to be in terms of the development of insight. What is the way to straighten our views? I think that asking questions here as you are doing, reading, reflecting and really considering are the most useful. Then it really doesn’t matter if one is working hard and long hours in a New York office or here in Hong Kong’s hustle bustle or living in a temple in Sri Lanka. There can be a life of solitude and contemplation at any moment and any idea that another moment would be more suitable is merely wishful thinking. You may also like to read this letter Jon wrote to Ann a little later when she came to stay with me in England: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17252 See also, a few other posts under ‘decisions’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Let me know if this helps or not or if you have any further questions. Thanks for putting up with such a long-winded, somewhat self-indulgent answer. Metta, Sarah ====== 24545 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Note: Sorry Sarah it took so long to rework this update and submit it > but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian Museum, and > traveling to the Red Sea. ..... No need to apologise at all. It works really well and the sutta quote answers your own uneasiness better than anything else. Excellent and most enjoyable. I'll keep all your diary entries to show the small number only of kids I'll be teaching in September. Look forward to NO 3 'The Pyramids with or without satipatthana reminders'??? Great to hear you so well settled, James. Metta, Sarah p.s If you want to read Nina's account of the discussions in Egypt, I forget the title now, but I'm sure it would be on this website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Let me know if you have trouble finding it. Or RobK would know. ====== 24546 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: DSG Messages in a Word Document --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > ---Put me down on your XMas list Rob. > > I looked at the files. Excellent! > > Could you tell me how to do what you did? > > Thanks > > Robertk > > Here are the steps: > Step 1 - Click Messages, Go To Message 1, Click "Expand Messages" > Step 2 - Under File, Select "Save As" > Step 3 - Click "Next" (displays next 15 messages) > Step 4 - Repeat Step 2 & Step 3 1600 times (really boring) > it as a .DOC file. > Step 8 - Use "Find/Replace" feature of Word to replace remaining > embedded HTML codes and delete embedded advertisements. (also boring) > > Sorry you asked? > ___________ Yes, I am actually. Seriously, You did a ton of work Rob. much appreciated! 24547 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan (& Elias), --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Please accept my heartfelt metta to you all. > > Sarah ordered me to inform the members about my whereabouts , .... Hey, Gayan, since when did a heartfelt pleading become an order;-) Just sometimes when members ask me to send metta to all other members, I suggest they might do it themselves;-) Thanks anyway. For Newbies, you can find Gayan’s pic in the album: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I don’t think I’ve even told the photo committee the story about when Gayan first posted his pic, my server at the time banned it. When I enquired with emails and ph calls, I was told it was probably because the pic was indecent. So everytime I looked in the album, I just saw a cross for Gayan. However, Jon checked on his office computer with a different server and found a properly attired Gayan with no problem. I followed up again with my server and found he’d been banned because of the first three letters of his name;-) Any pictures of Bodh Gaya would have been banned too. Hong Kong has to have the most conservative servers. (Hi Elias, thx also for adding your pic as well. I see you’ve really been making yourself at home in the links page too. That’s fine - we just keep a watchful eye to check any links conform with our strict guidelines;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links If any other new (or old) members feel able to follow Elias’ lead in the photo album, we’d all be glad.) ..... > I was asked to come back to USA on an assignment in the the beginning of > this year and was living in Boston since then. Will be here until > sometime > next year. > I have been behaving well , without accumulating papa kamma, but there > have > been some akusala kamma. > My plan is to go beyond the break-even ,.. but as you know , one has to > be > very very patient. .... Gayan, I’m not quite sure what the ‘break-even’ is. Is it to perform more kusala than akusala kamma in a day or is it to reach the first stage of enlightenment? Glad for any enlightening... .... > Although I have remained silent on DSG, I have been frequently reading > the > posts and thoughts with great interest. .... It’s always encouraging to hear this. Even if lurkers only surface once in a while to tell us they’re around, it’s much appreciated. .... > Hope all your merits have been treating you well. May they get all the > favourable conditions to get realised. > May you get all the courage to face your demerits. .... Thanks and as Mike said, the reminders from your ‘Cheating’ Dhammas series is helpful in this regard: See the following posts: Cheating (vancaka) Dhammas 3543, 3544, 3545, 10517 I know you’re not in Sri Lanka now, but I thought you (or maybe Sumane) might have an idea of anywhere Jim could contact there to help track down the old Pali grammars. If so, maybe you could let me or him know. Thanks so much for following my ‘order’;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24548 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi RobM & Friends, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Friends, > > When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my > mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past > posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling > through a limited number of messages on a web page to be inconvient. > I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the text > of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear on > a web-page). > > I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of > software and brute force. .... And it has taken lots and lots and hundreds of hours of brute force I know. Thanks to Rob M and his interest in reading the entire archive ‘novel’, all my DSG nightmares which were always centred around losing the entire archives and work on UP, disappeared overnight. He has no idea how many people I had approached in the effort to find a way to back up the entire archives with the same numbering system without success. At one point I even joined a busy list for moderators and no one there could work out a system to get around the difficulty yahoo has painstakingly created. Instead I read many stories of lists and archives that had been entirely lost and so my nightmare rate increased, especially when we couldn’t access DSG for several days and could get no response from yahoo. Anyway, that’s all a thing of the past. We have a back-up DSG2 in case of a breakdown of longer than a week, most the archives on escribe, and now the entire archives with same numbering (important for UP etc) backed up out of Yahoo’s reach by RobM. Thank you so much Rob. It’s a wonderful gift to DSG and wonderful that others now can scroll through the ‘novel’ as you do on flights, holiday destinations and maybe even during blackouts;-) For those with limited internet access time or for whom cost is a major factor, this could be really wonderful. I know you can also use the word search facility on the archives without internet, but forget how all this works. I think it’s a great idea too to put the series in ‘Files’ as you have done. I think you should carry on with this and we’ll make room for them. (RobK, perhaps if you and Nina aren’t looking at the full ‘Survey’ there anymore, it can be removed as it takes up quite a lot of space and can be read at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ If there was another reason for it to stay til it gets printed, I just forget- let me know off-list if so.) What we can also possibly do, RobM, when there’s no more room in the files, is to use the file space in DSG2 (same amount) which I mentioned we have for emergency use only. At the moment only the moderators can access it as we don’t want ppl posting there by mistake. When we get closer to that point, we’ll discuss it or other alternatives with Kom. (On another topic, Rob M, if you find a way of Pali conversion for Mac dummies without throwing out the Mac, Nina and I will again be grateful for ever, but this is not in the nightmare league at all, let me assure you. It’s jsut that everyone else has failed) Rob, always great to have you around. I’m not sure you’ve met Icaro from Brazil whose favourite text is the Pali version of Dhammasangani;-) I’ve forgotten which date we’ll be seeing you in HK. Hope it’s soon. Metta, Sarah p.s for anyone like me who prints out posts to read away from the computer, Rob M's system ( read the first couple of steps or so), is by far the quickest and easiest way to do this. Thx again. For creaky arms, it all helps. (Mike, Jon uses voice recognition software for his work, but has limited success here, esp. with any Pali. He's my guinea pig for testing it out) ====== 24549 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Sarah, A labour of love! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > I think it's a great idea too to put the series in `Files' as you have > done. I think you should carry on with this and we'll make room for them. === I will post them as I create them and leave it to you (and Kom) to figure out what to do when space becomes an issue. === > (On another topic, Rob M, if you find a way of Pali conversion for Mac > dummies without throwing out the Mac, Nina and I will again be grateful > for ever, but this is not in the nightmare league at all, let me assure > you. It's jsut that everyone else has failed) === Believe it or not, I will be in HK all of next week; not sure which evenings I will be free yet, but we can get together and chat about this problem. === > Rob, always great to have you around. I'm not sure you've met Icaro from > Brazil whose favourite text is the Pali version of Dhammasangani;-) === Icaro has already sent me an email requesting a "Christmas present". I was looking at the English version of the Dhammasangani last night, I can't imagine tackling it in Pali! Metta, Rob M :-) 24550 From: eaglenarius Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:03am Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Hello Selamat, Nina, -----Original Message----- From: nana_palo@c... [mailto:nana_palo@c...] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:59 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, welcome, we are living in Bogor. Ph no. 08121108290. ---------------------- Eagle : Thanks for your introduction. I'm reading your works in Buddhistonline, and articles (Indonesian) from theravada.net which was sent by Mr. Chandadhammo B. C. I'll surely contact you ( off-list ?), if I need more explanation of the articles. ---------------- Nina :If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. ------- Eagle : It's very kind of you to offer that. Best regards, Eagle 24551 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:20am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 8 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 8 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 8. (iv) How many kinds of understanding are there? 1. Firstly, as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states, it is of one kind. 2. As mundane and supramundane it is of two kinds. 3. Likewise as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on, 4. As the defining of mentality and materiality, 5. As accompanied by joy or by equanimity, 6. As the planes of seeing and of development. 7. It is of three kinds as consisting in what is reasoned, consisting in what is learnt (heard), and consisting in development. 8. Likewise as having a limited, exalted, or measureless object, 9. As skill in improvement, detriment, and means, 10. As interpreting the internal, and so on. 11. It is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths, 12. And as the four discriminations. (4) 8. katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa. lokiyalokuttaravasena duvidhaa. tathaa saasavaanaasavaadivasena, naamaruupavavatthaapanavasena, somanassupekkhaasahagatavasena, dassanabhaavanaabhuumivasena ca. tividhaa cintaasutabhaavanaamayavasena. tathaa parittamahaggataappamaa.naaramma.navasena, aayaapaayaupaayakosallavasena, ajjhattaabhinivesaadivasena ca. catubbidhaa catuusu saccesu ~naa.navasena catupa.tisambhidaavasena caati. 24552 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Robmoult! Robmoult:" Icaro has already sent me an email requesting a > "Christmas present". > I was looking at the English version of the > Dhammasangani last > night, I can't imagine tackling it in Pali!" ----------------------------------------------------- :-)))))))))))))))) TALLY HO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24553 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/25/03 2:15:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > With respect, I feel you have completely missed my point, and also > feel your opening few lines were with intent of ridicule (I think > that speech ("caustic" as you say) is wrong speech, no?). ----------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct, it is wrong speech, and I apologize. ----------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > >=========================== > > You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and > leading untold > >numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a > farmer, > >food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! > > ...This is not what I am saying. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. I thought that you were grossly mimimizing what the Buddha accomplished relative to certain urgent worldly needs, and I thought that position was way off base. I then permitted myself a quick piece of sarcasm that was thoughtless, inappropriate, and uncalled for. Again, I am very sorry. ------------------------------------------ > > > > Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is > claimed > >about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to > freedom (and, of > >course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me > that your > >position is a bit silly. > > If you read my argument more carefully again, you will see that my > point is that my belief is this: that dhamma is not a path of freedom > from dukkha (suffering) for all people. Not all people suffer from > mental dispositions, but instead from real physical conditions (e.g. > lack of, (or threatening of) life sustenance); Buddha dhamma will do > nothing for this - Only changing of the momentary physical condition > can alleviate this. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: While I don't at all deny the need to change momentary physical conditions or the importance of doing so, to help out people whenever possible, I basically disagree with your view. I do see the Dhamma as a path of freedom from dukkha for all people. This does not, of course, preclude helping people obtain food, shelter, medicine, etc in order to maintain their fortunate human life, and to maintain it in a state suitable to make it useful and livable with some degree of ease. ------------------------------------------------ > > >Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are > >among the most active people in the world > > While this may be true for lay buddhists I do not think this is the > case for the ordained. I do not think monks living in seclusion in > the forest, living off of alms, take part in worldly affairs and > concerns. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Some certainly do. The examples are plentiful, from all schools of Buddhism. Others more single-mindedly pursue mental cultivation according to the vinaya with the aim of liberating themselves to whatever degree possible, putting themselves into a way better position to bring the benefits of the Dhamma to others. Along the way, they typically teach within the Sangha and without, serve as prefects for other monks and nuns, and often help the lay population in many, many ways. What monks and nuns do runs the gamut from very worldly activities to a life a forest solitude. It is all good. --------------------------------------------------- > > And so I question, and raise discussion on whether it is > right/ethical for the ultimate goal of Buddhism partly being - to > become detached/aloof from the world; to disregard the world; to live > off alms with no posession (thus no physical communal functionality); > and finally to the ultimate state of detachment - self extinguish- > ment - nibbana . > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You, indeed, have every right to question it. I wonder whether your questioning may not be based on a few incorrect suppositions including a fixed view of what monks and nuns limit themselves to, what detachment actually involves (it isn't indifference), and the view of nibbana as a nothingness. It seems that way to me, but I could well be wrong. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Please do not ridicule me for questioning the dhamma. If Buddha was > alive he would have wanted me to. I would appreciate helpful replies > in my inquiry. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are absolutely correct! I again apologize for my intemperence and rudeness. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > with metta, > nori > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phan tom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24554 From: Elias Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All (buddha) all, i also added a new photograf (art) of gotama buddha in the photosection. WHo or whom have drawed the picture i do not know. /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > (Hi Elias, thx also for adding your pic as well. I see you've really been > making yourself at home in the links page too. That's fine - we just keep > a watchful eye to check any links conform with our strict guidelines;-) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links 24555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Vis. XIV,7 samaano Dear Larry, It is very thoughtful to collect different footnotes of Vis which are Tika passages. Of no 7, about dhammasabhaavo, the word samaana was translated as existing , but although not incorrect, I prefer: true. You will see the next sentence: I am still working at this passage and will poste it later on. Nina. 24556 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 8 B FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 8 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:57:23 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 8 B Commentary 8B: aya~nhi -- This is the saying: anatthajanano lobho, lobho cittappakopano. Desire leads to harm, it agitates the mind, bhayamantarato jaata.m, ta.m jano naavabujjhati. peril occurs within, but people do not understand this. luddho attha.m na jaanaati, luddho dhamma.m na passati. The person with desire does not know cause and effect. * andhatama.m tadaa hoti, ya.m lobho sahate nara.m.. (itivu 88) -- There is dense darkness when desire overwhelms people. yathaa kho pana anekaratanapuuraa mahaanaavaa bhinnaphalakantarena udaka.m aadiyamaanaa Just as a vessel full of treasures that takes in water through a broken board inside muhuttampi na ajjhupekkhitabbaa hoti, should not be neglected for one moment, vegenassaa vivara.m pidahitu.m va.t.tati, and its hole should be quickly closed, evameva.m ayampi na ajjhupekkhitabbo. evenso should Rahula not be neglected. yaavassa aya.m kileso abbhantare siilaratanaadiini na vinaaseti, So long as those defilements do not destroy the treasures of his virtue, taavadeva na.m nigga.nhissaamii''ti ajjhaasayamakaasi. I can still censure him.² Thus the Buddha decided. evaruupesu pana .thaanesu buddhaana.m naagavilokana.m naama hoti. At such occasions Buddhas look around with the Elephant¹s Look. tasmaa yantena parivattitasuva.n.napa.timaa viya Therefore, just as a golden statue is turned around by a mechanical device, sakalakaayeneva parivattetvaa .thito raahulabhadda.m aamantesi. he turned around with his whole body and so standing he addressed Lucky Rahula. ta.m sandhaaya ``atha kho bhagavaa apaloketvaa''tiaadi vutta.m. In this connection it was said, ³then the Buddha after he had looked around² and so on. English: This is the saying: Desire leads to harm, it agitates the mind, peril occurs within, but people do not understand this. The person with desire does not know cause and effect. * There is dense darkness when desire overwhelms people. Just as a vessel full of treasures that takes in water through a broken board inside should not be neglected for one moment, and its hole should be quickly closed, evenso Rahula should not be neglected. So long as those defilements do not destroy the treasures of his virtue, I can still censure him.² Thus the Buddha decided. At such occasions Buddhas look around with the Elephant¹s Look. Therefore, just as a golden statue is turned around by a mechanical device, he turned around with his whole body and so standing he addressed Lucky Rahula. In this connection it was said, ³then the Buddha after he had looked around² and so on. * the person with attachment does not understand the cause (dhamma as cause, hetu) of dukkha, which is craving, nor the effect (attha) which is dukkha. He does not understand the noble Truths and thus there will not be the cessation of dukkha. ***** Nina. 24557 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (II) Dear Jon, Thank you for elaborating further on this interesting and important subject. op 24-08-2003 09:52 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > J: I can see why the supernormal powers are not an impediment for > concentration (i.e., because it is through concentration that they > are obtained), but I do not recall why they are said to be an > impediment for insight. Is it because of subtle attachment to them, > causing the person to be distracted from the goal of penetrating the > characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena)? I usually think > of ignorance or wrong view as being the only true obstacles to the > development of insight. N: To gain the supernormal powers the yogavacara has to attain the fourth jhana, have masteries of jhana, and cultivate the four iddhiipaada, bases of success. While jhanacittas arise he cannot be aware of nama and rupa appearing through the six doors. When he emerges from jhana he has to make a resolve for the supernormal power he wants to attain, such as to become many (Vis. XII, 57). He is indeed distracted from the goal of penetrating the characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena) appearing one at a time through the six doors. When he is an arahat already it is a different matter. Nina. 24558 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Icaro, I could add a few things. op 24-08-2003 18:18 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: At > Patthanapali ( if I could translate its beginning > right!!!) I found that hetupaccayo has a "sameness" > relationship with objects of same class or dhamma at a > rupa level > >First sentence of Patthana: "...hetusampayutakanam dhammanam tamsammuthanananca > rupanam..." N: samu.t.thaana: origination, cause, arising from. : and of the rupas arising from the dhammas which are accompanied by roots.In my Transl: Citta is one of the four factors that produce rupa (the others being kamma, heat and food). A citta accompanied bu hetus, say, dosa-muula-citta, can produce rupa, and then that rupa is conditioned by root-condition, hetu-paccaya. When we are angry, we may express this with our facial expression, akusala citta produces the rupa which is boduly intimation (kayavi~n~natti), and this rupa is then conditioned by the hetus of moha and dosa by way of root. The same is true for sobhana hetus. Thus here is the relation with rupa you were wondering about. Icaro: .... If you suppose that an > object at your mind has a same class of rupa than a > real object just ahead our senses, so they share the > same conditions. If not, they don?t. > That?s my viewpoint about these particular text at > Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. N: Citta experiences an object, as you imply, through the six doors. Nama is experienced only through the mind-door, and rupa can be experienced through the sense-doors and also through the mind-door. We have to learn that nama and rupa have different characteristics, but this is very difficult for all of us. I would not think of an object at your mind that has a class of rupa, just as if rupa enters citta, it is just experienced by citta. Citta experiences an object for an extremely short moment, and it is difficult for us to know when seeing which is ahetuka, experiences visible object and when lobha-mulacitta arises and experiences that object. It is hard to know when the hetus react towards the object. Is there yoniso manasikara or ayoniso manasikara? It is all so fast, panna must be very keen. Because of contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, cittas succeed one another very rapidly, and according to a fixed order (niyaama). Also, when lobha accompanies the citta it is conditioned by former lobha: pakatupanissaya-paccaya, natural strong dependence-condiiton. Translating "Kamma as one's own" reminded me again how difficult it is to really understand conditions, including kamma that produces vipaka. Only at the first stage of insight it is known what nama is. Thus, before that we can only understand the theory of object-condition and hetu-paccaya. What does it really mean: citta experiences an object at this moment. I: A smilling Arahant could be a very rare event...but > since it is a ahetuka kiriya citta ( embodied at the > six senses as defined, despite to be ahetu),so there > could be an Aramanapaccaya related to it. Why not ? N: That is right, each citta is conditioned by Arammanapaccaya, the object conditions the citta by being the object of experience. > ------------------------------------------------- > Mike: " By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali > word >> 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't >> think I've run across it before." > > -------------------------------------------------- I: > At my opinion, the hetupaccaya could be a solid > foundation (hetthaatala) of the Aramanapaccayo that > lies on it, as a basis of a stupa! N: I would like another option: object-condition is a condition by way of object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is experienced not only by citta but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the accompanying hetus. There are so many conditions operating at the same time, I am not inclined to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, a hetu is a foundation for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root is a foundation for a tree. Only in that way, as I see it. Nina. 24559 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Nina: Nina:I could add a few things. ----------------------------------------------------- I liked so much your reply, Nina! I am adding it to my bookmarks for further reference!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- >> N: samu.t.thaana: origination, cause, arising from. > : and of the rupas > arising from the dhammas which are accompanied by > roots.In my Transl: roots are related to the dhammas which are > associated with roots, and the > materiality produced thereby, by root-condition.> > Citta is one of the four factors that produce rupa > (the others being kamma, > heat and food). A citta accompanied bu hetus, say, > dosa-muula-citta, can > produce rupa, and then that rupa is conditioned by > root-condition, > hetu-paccaya. ----------------------------------------------------- Perfect!!!! Nina, this demonstrates that my single-handed labour of translating the Pali is not vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! There´s more to come!!!! --------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: .... If you suppose that an > > object at your mind has a same class of rupa than > a > > real object just ahead our senses, so they share > the > > same conditions. If not, they don?t. > > That?s my viewpoint about these particular text at > > Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. > N: Citta experiences an object, as you imply, > through the six doors. Nama is > experienced only through the mind-door, and rupa can > be experienced through > the sense-doors and also through the mind-door. We > have to learn that nama > and rupa have different characteristics, but this is > very difficult for all > of us. I would not think of an object at your mind > that has a class of rupa, > just as if rupa enters citta, it is just experienced > by citta. ----------------------------------------------------- That could be very difficult to assimilate because it is not a crude idealism (the object only exists really in our minds)but better an Antinominalism ( objects as mind stuff are names AND things - ´sed nominem ET res´ - nama/rupa). Citta receives the Rupa external our door-senses as an object perceived by the eye, the hear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! ---------------------------------------------------- Citta > experiences an object for an extremely short moment, > and it is difficult for > us to know when seeing which is ahetuka, experiences > visible object and when > lobha-mulacitta arises and experiences that object. > It is hard to know when > the hetus react towards the object. Is there yoniso > manasikara or ayoniso > manasikara? It is all so fast, panna must be very > keen. ----------------------------------------------------- This can be understood as the principle of the Animated Cartoon or a movie - a very fast sequence of draw images or photograms behaves like an illusion of movement... but the neat experience at our minds falls not (ahetuka)to it: you can enjoy the show as a real thing...or not!(Kusala or Akusala!!) --------------------------------------------------- Nina: " Because of > contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, cittas > succeed one another very > rapidly, and according to a fixed order (niyaama)." ---------------------------------------------------- A good definition of Niyaama!!! -------------------------------------------------- > Also, when lobha > accompanies the citta it is conditioned by former > lobha: > pakatupanissaya-paccaya, natural strong > dependence-condiiton. > Translating "Kamma as one's own" reminded me again > how difficult it is to > really understand conditions, including kamma that > produces vipaka. Only at > the first stage of insight it is known what nama is. > Thus, before that we > can only understand the theory of object-condition > and hetu-paccaya. What > does it really mean: citta experiences an object at > this moment. ----------------------------------------------------- That makes an anti-metaphysical statement: prese > I: A smilling Arahant could be a very rare > event...but > > since it is a ahetuka kiriya citta ( embodied at > the > > six senses as defined, despite to be ahetu),so > there > > could be an Aramanapaccaya related to it. Why not > ? > N: That is right, each citta is conditioned by > Arammanapaccaya, the object > conditions the citta by being the object of > experience. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Mike: " By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali > > word > >> 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't > >> think I've run across it before." > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > I: > > At my opinion, the hetupaccaya could be a solid > > foundation (hetthaatala) of the Aramanapaccayo > that > > lies on it, as a basis of a stupa! > N: I would like another option: object-condition is > a condition by way of > object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is > experienced not only by citta > but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the > accompanying hetus. > There are so many conditions operating at the same > time, I am not inclined > to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, > a hetu is a foundation > for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root > is a foundation for a > tree. Only in that way, as I see it. > Nina. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24560 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Nina: Nina:I could add a few things. ----------------------------------------------------- I liked so much your reply, Nina! I am adding it to my bookmarks for further reference!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- >> N: samu.t.thaana: origination, cause, arising from. > : and of the rupas > arising from the dhammas which are accompanied by > roots.In my Transl: roots are related to the dhammas which are > associated with roots, and the > materiality produced thereby, by root-condition.> > Citta is one of the four factors that produce rupa > (the others being kamma, > heat and food). A citta accompanied bu hetus, say, > dosa-muula-citta, can > produce rupa, and then that rupa is conditioned by > root-condition, > hetu-paccaya. ----------------------------------------------------- Perfect!!!! Nina, this demonstrates that my single-handed labour of translating the Pali is not vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! There´s more to come!!!! --------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: .... If you suppose that an > > object at your mind has a same class of rupa than > a > > real object just ahead our senses, so they share > the > > same conditions. If not, they don?t. > > That?s my viewpoint about these particular text at > > Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. > N: Citta experiences an object, as you imply, > through the six doors. Nama is > experienced only through the mind-door, and rupa can > be experienced through > the sense-doors and also through the mind-door. We > have to learn that nama > and rupa have different characteristics, but this is > very difficult for all > of us. I would not think of an object at your mind > that has a class of rupa, > just as if rupa enters citta, it is just experienced > by citta. ----------------------------------------------------- That could be very difficult to assimilate because it is not a crude idealism (the object only exists really in our minds)but better an Antinominalism ( objects as mind stuff are names AND things - ´sed nominem ET res´ - nama/rupa). Citta receives the Rupa external our door-senses as an object perceived by the eye, the hear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! ---------------------------------------------------- Citta > experiences an object for an extremely short moment, > and it is difficult for > us to know when seeing which is ahetuka, experiences > visible object and when > lobha-mulacitta arises and experiences that object. > It is hard to know when > the hetus react towards the object. Is there yoniso > manasikara or ayoniso > manasikara? It is all so fast, panna must be very > keen. ----------------------------------------------------- This can be understood as the principle of the Animated Cartoon or a movie - a very fast sequence of draw images or photograms behaves like an illusion of movement... but the neat experience at our minds falls not (ahetuka)to it: you can enjoy the show as a real thing...or not!(Kusala or Akusala!!) --------------------------------------------------- Nina: " Because of > contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, cittas > succeed one another very > rapidly, and according to a fixed order (niyaama)." ---------------------------------------------------- A good definition of Niyaama!!! -------------------------------------------------- > Also, when lobha > accompanies the citta it is conditioned by former > lobha: > pakatupanissaya-paccaya, natural strong > dependence-condiiton. > Translating "Kamma as one's own" reminded me again > how difficult it is to > really understand conditions, including kamma that > produces vipaka. Only at > the first stage of insight it is known what nama is. > Thus, before that we > can only understand the theory of object-condition > and hetu-paccaya. What > does it really mean: citta experiences an object at > this moment. ----------------------------------------------------- That makes an anti-metaphysical statement: present - or time - has no meaning! It´s only the own infinitesimal moment of conscience of Citta, followed by the subsequent ones, and preceeded by the near last ones! ---------------------------------------------------- > N: I would like another option: object-condition is > a condition by way of > object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is > experienced not only by citta > but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the > accompanying hetus. > There are so many conditions operating at the same > time, I am not inclined > to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, > a hetu is a foundation > for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root > is a foundation for a > tree. Only in that way, as I see it. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------- Right on the point, Nina!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24561 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Howard I don't know. The Buddha used such speech himself in order to "teach lessons" for the overall good of the community. The Buddha would occasionally "put people in their place" when the occasion was appropriate. To the recipient of the "critique" it was probably "stinging" at the time. But it was done for the greater good. Sarcastic Speech is not necessarily lying, malevolent, harsh, or frivolous. I don't think you have anything to apologize for but I applaud your good manners in doing so. :) TG In a message dated 8/25/2003 5:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Nori - > > In a message dated 8/25/03 2:15:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > nori_public@a... writes: > > > > >Dear Howard, > > > >With respect, I feel you have completely missed my point, and also > >feel your opening few lines were with intent of ridicule (I think > >that speech ("caustic" as you say) is wrong speech, no?). > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are correct, it is wrong speech, and I apologize. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > >Howard: > >>=========================== > >> You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and > >leading untold > >>numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a > >farmer, > >>food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! > > > >...This is not what I am saying. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay. I thought that you were grossly mimimizing what the Buddha > accomplished relative to certain urgent worldly needs, and I thought that > position > was way off base. I then permitted myself a quick piece of sarcasm that was > thoughtless, inappropriate, and uncalled for. Again, I am very sorry. > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > >> Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is > >claimed > >>about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to > >freedom (and, of > >>course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me > >that your > >>position is a bit silly. > > > >If you read my argument more carefully again, you will see that my > >point is that my belief is this: that dhamma is not a path of freedom > >from dukkha (suffering) for all people. Not all people suffer from > >mental dispositions, but instead from real physical conditions (e.g. > >lack of, (or threatening of) life sustenance); Buddha dhamma will do > >nothing for this - Only changing of the momentary physical condition > >can alleviate this. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > While I don't at all deny the need to change momentary physical > conditions or the importance of doing so, to help out people whenever > possible, I > basically disagree with your view. I do see the Dhamma as a path of freedom > from > dukkha for all people. This does not, of course, preclude helping people > obtain food, shelter, medicine, etc in order to maintain their fortunate > human > life, and to maintain it in a state suitable to make it useful and livable > with > some degree of ease. > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > >>Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are > >>among the most active people in the world > > > >While this may be true for lay buddhists I do not think this is the > >case for the ordained. I do not think monks living in seclusion in > >the forest, living off of alms, take part in worldly affairs and > >concerns. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Some certainly do. The examples are plentiful, from all schools of > Buddhism. Others more single-mindedly pursue mental cultivation according to > the > vinaya with the aim of liberating themselves to whatever degree possible, > putting themselves into a way better position to bring the benefits of the > Dhamma > to others. Along the way, they typically teach within the Sangha and > without, > serve as prefects for other monks and nuns, and often help the lay > population > in many, many ways. What monks and nuns do runs the gamut from very worldly > activities to a life a forest solitude. It is all good. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > >And so I question, and raise discussion on whether it is > >right/ethical for the ultimate goal of Buddhism partly being - to > >become detached/aloof from the world; to disregard the world; to live > >off alms with no posession (thus no physical communal functionality); > >and finally to the ultimate state of detachment - self extinguish- > >ment - nibbana . > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > You, indeed, have every right to question it. I wonder whether your > questioning may not be based on a few incorrect suppositions including a > fixed > view of what monks and nuns limit themselves to, what detachment actually > involves (it isn't indifference), and the view of nibbana as a nothingness. > It > seems that way to me, but I could well be wrong. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >Please do not ridicule me for questioning the dhamma. If Buddha was > >alive he would have wanted me to. I would appreciate helpful replies > >in my inquiry. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are absolutely correct! I again apologize for my intemperence and > rudeness. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >with metta, > >nori > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > 24562 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:16pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hello Christine, Thank-you for your encouraging words. I have been thinking that if there is enough interest out there (at least five of us), it might be worth starting a new yahoo group specifically for discussing these matters and to share our ideas and experiences. I did some searching of yahoogroups categories and I thought the 'voluntary simplicity' one might fit the best -- simple living for Theravadins! This category is found under Cultures & Community: Issues and Causes. There are 127 voluntary simplicity groups listed and I went through them all and didn't see any for Buddhists, let alone Theravadins. I also thought that such a group could include couples in addition to solitaries. I sometimes hear stories of couples giving up citylife and good jobs to move to a simple life in the country. Btw. I make all my own bread. Best wishes, Jim > Hello Jim, Sarah, Victor and all, > > I think this is a very worthwhile idea and believe the discussion > elsewhere provided much food for thought. Jim, I don't think the > interest faded - it's like making bread - after combining the > ingredients, bread mixture has to be covered and set aside in a warm > place to multiply in size. And so with this topic of a deliberative > spiritual community of lay hermits or recluses. As I recall - the > discussion centred on lay people supporting each other to live a > life of seclusion and simplicity for the purpose of dhamma study and > practice. This included people staying where they were, and being in > communication with a global network of similarly interested > buddhists; a rotating use of properties for travel and holidays was > suggested; and a strong interest was also expressed in creating an > intentional spiritual community by sharing a property (i.e. rural, > large, with separate forms of housing) - this led to a discussion of > how to ensure an income, safety, support, and enough, but not too > much, companionship. > I think this topic has merit - as many of us are in the over-40 age > bracket - we may find it useful to consider just how we eventually > wish to live out our lives, with whom, and how best to support an > increasing commitment to study and practice. > > I wonder what other dsg-ers think? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24563 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:22pm Subject: Right Speech was [Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for ...] Hello Nori, Howard, TG, All, I was actually pleased to see Nori's calm assertiveness in requesting Right Speech and Howard's alacrity in instantly recognising the need for, and openheartedly giving, the necessary apology. I feel both are to be commended for these actions. I agree with TG that, if we were Buddhas, then we would be able to act without clinging to our identity as a particular person, a particular nationality, a particular role, a particular gender, a particular age, and so view the words or beliefs of others without reaction, but with equanimity. Our speech could then be directed towards helping them to Liberation. But we are very far from being Buddhas. As I understand it, sarcasm does not comply with the last three characteristics below, and very likely not the first two either. "Bhikkhus, words having these five characteristics are words well- spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize. What are these five characteristics? The five are: spoken at the proper time spoken in line with the truth spoken gently spoken beneficially spoken with a friendly heart Bhikkhus, speech having these five characteristics are words well- spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize." (Anguttara-Nikaya, Fives.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: 24564 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori and everyone.... Nori says > Here is my example: > > To explicate my point, I will reduce our entire global community of > billions of people to a nomadic tribe of 5 people. 3 are men who hunt > and 2 are women who gather and prepare food. 1 of them is the Buddha. > Let us say that they are all suffering from starvation and are > approaching death. > > The Buddha teaches to them that they suffer from delusion/wrong view, > from desire (sensual pleasures, becoming/not becoming, etc.) or > aversion, or from not realizing Annica (impermanence), not realizing > Anatta (not self), etc., etc. My comments: First off this is a mischaracterization of the Buddha's teachings. In his first teaching he taught about the Middle Way, the way between engaging in sensual pleasures and self mortification. He found that starvation robbed the body of strength and thus was a limitation to practice. Thus in this example, I think we can gather from the text, that the Buddha would indeed first of all help the group avoid starvation. Nori says: > > While these things Buddha teaches might dispel suffering for those > with these mental dispositions, this is not the case here. > > The case here for suffering is very simple: There is no food !!!; > They are starving ! and they are approaching death. > > Likewise, the solution to this suffering is very simple: To attain > food !!!; To act to attain food !!! > My comments: I disagree the cause of starvation here is lack of food, the cause of suffering is still the attachment to desire, attaching to becoming, etc. Nori says: > No amount of meditation or mental conditioning will solve this > suffering. > > Likewise is the case of suffering for much of the world. > > Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but > instead due to physical conditions. > > Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. > money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) > > The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case > (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to > alleviate the condition! My comments: I again disagree, the majority of the people in the world are not suffering from starving, but suffering because they cannot get what they want, cannot kept what they get, what they don't want, etc. I do not think one ends the round of suffering through better food and better TV. There is never enough food, never enough heath, never enough clothing to end suffering. If it were so the Buddha would have framed the Forth Noble Truth along the lines that the cessation of suffering is a better house, more pay, and a good union. Nori's comments: > > So then in my example of the tribe of five: Would it be fair and > ethical to remain aloof from the others; to not act (to help attain > food)? Would it be fair and ethical to ask the others for alms while > refusing to help them gain sustenance through work and toil/suffering > since he has taught them the dhamma (which does them no good to > alleviate their suffering from starvation)? > My Comments: The ethical action would be to obtain the food necessary to support the body and to help the others end develop the understanding to end the round of rebirth... Nori says: > > comments are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > > > ---------------- > A great opportunity to address one of the issues that often comes up with the Buddhist path :) 24565 From: Eddie Lou Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Eddie: > Science and Maths belong to the same substratum of > our minds that can attain and understand Buddha, > Dhamma and Sangha. I don´t see much more points of > contact between them beyond these. Dear Ícaro, What I really mean is Buddha's Dhamma is the 'ultimate complete reality picture / model' and Science (let alone Math) is but a drop in the bucket and far away from catching up. It will take quite some time but when it does it should coincide 'exactly'. See what I mean. Again my question remains - why this samsara and rebirth games described in Dhamma? I already asked of a number of knowledgeable persons but no satisfactory answer yet. > Eddie...do you like Iron Maiden ? "Eddie" is > the > mascot of the band! I do know about Iron Maiden. Can you elaborate a bit? I hope I had trimmed to be short and yet meaningful enough (I was told a few times to trim already). I guess this may be just 1 to 2 kilobytes. Metta, Eddie. 24566 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- In , Eddie Lou < What I really mean is Buddha's Dhamma is the 'ultimate complete reality picture / model' and Science (let alone Math) is but a drop in the bucket and far away from catching up. It will take quite some time but when it does it should coincide 'exactly'. See what I mean. Again my question remains - why this samsara and rebirth games described in Dhamma? I already asked of a number of knowledgeable persons but no satisfactory answer yet. > ___________ Dear eddie, I agree about science and dhamma. Could you give more details about the 'samsara and rebirth games' question. What is it you want answered? RobertK 24567 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Eddie: Eddie Lou " What I really mean is Buddha's Dhamma is the > 'ultimate complete reality picture / model' and > Science (let alone Math) is but a drop in the bucket > and far away from catching up. It will take quite > some > time but when it does it should coincide 'exactly'. > See what I mean." ---------------------------------------------------- This "ultimate complete reality picture/model" is only the last link of a mental process that begins with sheer ignorance.I think that it can be difficult to leave Math alone, because is one of the best flourishments of human mind - just think that at Classical Greek´s time, Science and Physics were only a branch of Philosophy and Maths (geometry and arithmetics)owned entirely original remarks on thought patterns. The bucket of Reality is far from be filled at present times with this present science... but much of the hard work on understand and elaborate the Universe as the playground of Science Laws was already done. Fortunately! ----------------------------------------------------- Eddie: "Again my question remains - > why > this samsara and rebirth games described in Dhamma? > I > already asked of a number of knowledgeable persons > but > no satisfactory answer yet." --------------------------------------------------- His Holiness The Dalai Lama had expounded many teachings about these matters in his works. Think about the Kamma - cause and effect at a existential level, for example. If you are living not alone, interacting with other living beings, you will perceive that your own mental moods and feelings make on the mental moods and feelings of others...and vice-versa. At one single day in a big city you can find yourself at a Samsara´s rollercoaster: from the Empireal kingdom of the Devas of autosatisfaction to the Infernal Niraya of car accidents, bombs and shotgunnery. Leaving away such samsaric thoughts and take a firm decision of reach the other shore of unconditioned state - Nibbana - is the aim of every person interested on Buddhism. "Lege. Tace. Judice" (Read! Be silent! Judge!) ---------------------------------------------------- Eddie: "I do know about Iron Maiden. Can you elaborate a > bit? > I hope I had trimmed to be short and yet meaningful > enough (I was told a few times to trim already). I > guess this may be just 1 to 2 kilobytes." ---------------------------------------------------- Iron Maiden is a heavy metal band that I am fan!!! Some of their hits: "The tropper" "The number of the beast" "Rhyme of Ancient Mariner" "Running Free". "Two Minutes to Midnight" "Fear of the Dark" "Wasting Love" "Bring your daughter... to the slaughter!" And many many others!!! I could take a entire discussion group only to chatting about it!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24568 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:35pm Subject: RE: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, please don't hesitate to contact me. Dear Mrs Nina, anumodana for your kind attention send Eagle's message to me. how are you? may you and your family be well and ever grow in the Dhamma. muditacittena, selamat. ------original message------ From: "eaglenarius" To: Date: 25 Aug 2003 17:03:07 Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Hello Selamat, Nina, -----Original Message----- From: nana_palo@c... [mailto:nana_palo@c...] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:59 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, welcome, we are living in Bogor. Ph no. 08121108290. ---------------------- Eagle : Thanks for your introduction. I'm reading your works in Buddhistonline, and articles (Indonesian) from theravada.net which was sent by Mr. Chandadhammo B. C. I'll surely contact you ( off-list ?), if I need more explanation of the articles. ---------------- Nina :If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. ------- Eagle : It's very kind of you to offer that. Best regards, Eagle 24569 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Dear Larry, While in India we had such an interesting discussion with A. Supee about these. He was explainig how the Buddha knew the way to express all details of Dhamma in perfect and clear language. Expression in language is also a discriminative panna and the Buddha had the highest degree of it. Sariputta had it less, but was still very apt. The other great disciples had it in a lesser degree. The fourth one: knowledge of the first three: the Buddha knew all details of all dhammas, he knew cause and effect.See Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 15. Meaning, attho: the fruit of a cause. and dhamma in the sense of hetu, cause. See my meanings of Dhamma, I repost the passage: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to. Also in the ³Pa.tisambhidaamagga², the Path of Discrimination, the four analytical knowledges have been explained. In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Sevens, IV, 37, we read about seven conditions leading to the four ³analyses². We read at the end: * Attha has many meanings, this word can designate: purpose, meaning, but also result or consequence. Kom and Jaran also listened while in India, and maybe they can add. Nina. op 25-08-2003 05:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I guess my main question for now is how is knowledge of > etymology and eloquence panna? What is panna's object here? Is knowledge > of meaning and knowledge of eloquence the beginning and end of this > path? 24570 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary:with satipatthana. Dear Sarah, dear James, Yes the title is something like Dhamma in Egypt. I would not recommend it to you, James. James, it was still different from what you thought. A. Sujin spoke to us outside while we were walking amidst the bustle of tourists, not inside the graves. We had such good reminders of impermanence and mindfulness of death, seeing the past glory. We also indulged fully in our lobha for art. Daily life. The museum, all that gold: the seeing sure was kusala vipaka. And how we cling immediately. Lodewijk said today: satipatthana can be any moment. Nina. op 25-08-2003 09:14 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Look forward to NO 3 'The Pyramids with or without satipatthana > reminders'??? > p.s If you want to read Nina's account of the discussions in Egypt, I > forget the title now, but I'm sure it would be on this website: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Let me know if you have trouble finding it. Or RobK would know. > ====== 24571 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Dear Howard, yes to be ordered at PTS, England, and for you in U.S. Pali Text Society. Pariyatti Book Service email: sales@p... It is in Lake city way, N.E. Seattle For members there is ten % off. Success, Nina. P.S. I just read your next message. A good idea. op 25-08-2003 06:32 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 8/25/03 12:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > 24572 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Howard, FYI - when you join PTS you get one book free (including postage) included in your membership fee. This does not apply to certain books (dictionary, etc.). I believe that this also applies when you renew your membership (i.e. one "free book" per year included in your membership). Details on the PTS website. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > yes to be ordered at PTS, England, and for you in U.S. Pali Text Society. > Pariyatti Book Service email: sales@p... > It is in Lake city way, N.E. Seattle > For members there is ten % off. > Success, > Nina. > P.S. I just read your next message. A good idea. > op 25-08-2003 06:32 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > Hi, Nina - > > > > In a message dated 8/25/03 12:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > > writes: > > 24573 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi, Rob - In a message dated 8/26/03 1:22:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > FYI - when you join PTS you get one book free (including postage) > included in your membership fee. This does not apply to certain > books (dictionary, etc.). I believe that this also applies when you > renew your membership (i.e. one "free book" per year included in > your membership). Details on the PTS website. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ========================= Thanks for the info, Rob. I'll ck out the site. (Somehow I expect that the $136 Patthana will not be an acceptable choice of free book! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24574 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Hi Nina, Thanks for your remarks. One odd thing about the 4 patisambhida is that it seems no one can make up their mind whether they are about cause and effect or discourse. This ambivalence almost suggests that experience is syntactic or grammatical. How would you translate patisambhida? I'm leaning towards "division". Larry -------------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, While in India we had such an interesting discussion with A. Supee about these. He was explainig how the Buddha knew the way to express all details of Dhamma in perfect and clear language. Expression in language is also a discriminative panna and the Buddha had the highest degree of it. Sariputta had it less, but was still very apt. The other great disciples had it in a lesser degree. The fourth one: knowledge of the first three: the Buddha knew all details of all dhammas, he knew cause and effect.See Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 15. Meaning, attho: the fruit of a cause. and dhamma in the sense of hetu, cause. See my meanings of Dhamma, I repost the passage: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to. Also in the ³Pa.tisambhidaamagga², the Path of Discrimination, the four analytical knowledges have been explained. In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Sevens, IV, 37, we read about seven conditions leading to the four ³analyses². We read at the end: * Attha has many meanings, this word can designate: purpose, meaning, but also result or consequence. Kom and Jaran also listened while in India, and maybe they can add. Nina. 24575 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Howard, (Icaro, RobM, Eagle & All), Let me add my bit too.... The Patthana (Conditional Relations) is extremely difficult for me to follow even in translation. However, it’s a great reference text in small doses at a time, I think. I strongly recommend that you order U Narada’s ‘Conditional Relations’ which is a detailed guide or summary to the Patthana, to study either first or alongside the Patthana which he translated for the PTS. ***** Miss Horner, in her foreward to the Patthana translation also discusses the disappearance of the Teachings: “In the Anagatavamsa and some of the Pali Commentaries it is stated that as time goes on and on the Buddha’s Dhamma will decay owing to five “disappearances” affecting its survival. In the “disappearance of learning”, the Great Patthana itself will decay first, other parts of the Pitaka following till all have fallen into oblivion. It is largely to delay such an eventuality that the Muula Pa.t.thaana Sayadaw [U Narada] and his fellow-worker, U Thein Nyun, feel it important to devote so much of their time and effort to translating the Abhidhamma. They believe that if Patthana can be understood in the West "as it really is" (yathaaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of the Abhidhamma-pitaka, of the Sutta-pitaka and of the Vinaya-pitaka will be assured also.” I think this is also one reason for DSG and for some of us, for quoting from the Abhidhamma and commentaries at length. ***** Let me add another quote by U Narada himself from his preface to the Guide to Conditional Relations. This is really for Icaro: “In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed(sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta.” ***** U Narada also writes in the conclusion to his introduction to the Patthana; “...So instead of simply arguing whether Pa.t.thaana, which is part of Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not, this translated Text should be studied and understood. Then the facts should be tested as Pa.t.thaana deals with all the causes and effects that arise and cease in the continuity of beings at every instant of the day. Only then will one be in a position to make a personal decision as to whether The Buddha expounded Pa.t.thaana or not.” ***** I also wrote before that the other question, I think, might be that if the Abhidhamma was not taught by the Buddha, who else could it have been taught by? In the preface to the ‘Discourse on Elements’, Thein Nyun adds these comments: “The Abhidhamma is so abstruse, profound and subtle that only Enlightened Buddhas are able to give a complete exposition of it because of their Omniscience in three respects:- 1) perfect knowledge of all the things knowable which are a) conditioned; b) subject to change; c)characteristics or qualities of things; d)Nibbana, and e)concepts. 2) Perfect knowledge of the various kinds of expositions for teaching the above in detail. 3) Perfect knowledge of all beings who are worthy and unworthy of instruction for deliverence. ***** Howard, I know you’ve read most these comments before, but others may not have as they don’t all read the archives as a novel like RobM does. Icaro, I think it’s great if you introduce single Pali sentences from your reading of Dhammasangani in Pali and also Patthana with your rough translation or idea. We can add the ‘formal’ translation and discuss further. One sentence at a time;-)Thank you for this, I appreciate it. Whilst RobM has an ability to greatly simplify in his slides, (Newbies see RobM’s Notes and Slides in Files): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ we know that you, Icaro, have an equally great ability to complicate and well and truly keep us on our toes(Eagle, I think we need our Pali, Spanish, Sanskrit, English, Latin, French and Icish dictionaries handy;-). Muito Obrigado for all the encouragement!(hope it’s right this time;-)) Metta to all, Sarah ======= 24576 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana Hi RobK & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Anagatavamsa commentary:"""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances.< ***** Quoting just now from IB Horner’s preface to the Patthana reminded me that I meant to say that I thought this was a very good summary of the disappearance of the sasana and it makes me very interested to read the text in full. Thank you for posting the passage. I found it to be very credible because it conforms with and summarises what we read elsewhere in the Tipitaka and commentaries. You’ve already added other good references. I’d like to add a little more from just some recent considering of commentary passages. ***** We read in the Parinibbana Sutta about Subhadda, the recently ordained elderly bhikkhu’s joy on hearing the news about the Buddha’s parinibbana, having ‘conceived hostility towards the Blessed One’. I added more details about this from the Bahiranidana, commentary to the Vinaya before: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5862.html Further in the commentary to the Parinibbana Sutta, we read about MahaKassapa’s concern for the preservation of the Dhamma: “ ‘In the teaching which the Blessed One established with effort, a thorn has so quickly become a major evil defect. This wicked man is indeed capable of growing and acquiring other companions like himself and so causing the teaching to disappear.........As flowers blown by the wind scatter here and there, so by the influence of people like this, as time passes, a rule of training or two will be lost from the Vinaya. A question or two will be lost from the Sutta; a difference between stages or two will be lost from the Abhidhamma, so in due course, when the root [basic text] is destroyed, we will become like demons. Therefore I will have the Dhamma and Vinaya recited. When it is done, this Dhamma and Vinaya will be immovable like the flowers tied together by strong string. It is for this reason that the Blessed One walked three leagues to meet me [see Ja 469]: gave me the ordination with three homilies [see SN11 220]; gave me his own robe from his body in exchange; talked about the path through a simile of the moon, by waving his hand in the sky, and made me realise the truth; gave the jewel of the whole teaching three times. While monks like me remain alive, let this evil man not prosper within our doctrine. I will have both the Dhamma and the Vinaya rehearsed before what is not Dhamma shines out and Dhamma is kept out, before those who speak what is not Dhamma become strong and those who speak Dhamma become feeble, before those who speak what is not Vinaya become strong and those who speak Vinaya become feeble. Then monks, each memorising what he is capable of himself, will tell what is legitimate from what is not legitimate. Then this evil man will by himself incur censure and will not be able to hold up his head again....’” ..... Earlier we read in the sutta itself (ch4), that the Buddha addresses the bhikkhus, encouraging them to check whether what they hear is in conformity with the Discourses and Discipline and about the four great references to be preserved. There is a lot of detail in the commentary, but I’ll just add one paragraph here: “But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, sutta means the three baskets which the three Councils recited. ‘Accordance with sutta’ means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate]. ‘The word of a teacher’ means the commentary. ‘One’s own opinion’ means one’s own illumination through grasping an analogy or one’s consequent understanding. Of these, sutta should not be rejected, for he who rejects that rejects the Buddha himself. If what is legitimate by being in accord agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. If the word of a teacher agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. One’s own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. ‘The three Councils’ are the one of five hundred monks, the one of seven hundred, the one of a thousand. Only a sutta transmitted through them is authoritative; any other is a contemptible sutta, not to be accepted. Even though words and syllables appear in the latter, they should be known ‘as ones which do not appear in the Sutta, are not found in the Vinaya.’ “ ***** The commentary to the passage (ch 5) regarding veneration of the Tathagata also has a lot of detail. Material worship (aamisa-puujaa) “cannot sustain Buddhism (saasana) for a single day, or even for the time it takes to drink one helping of rice gruel. A thousand monasteries like the Mahaavihaara and a thousand stuupas like the Mahaacetiya cannot sustain Buddhism. The deed done belongs to the doer alone. It is right conduct (sammaapa.tipatti) that is suitable as honour to the Tathaagata, for that is what he desired and what can sustain Buddhism.” It continues with details about when monks, nuns and lay people do and do not “practise in accordance with dhamma”. ***** 24577 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana cont. On the decline of the sasana, I also thought about the dreams of King Pasenadi which we read about in the Mahaaupina Jaataka. Rob M summarised them in this post; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22408 “In a Jataka tale, the Buddha interpreted the sixteen dreams of King Pasendai to foretell what would happen when society decayed.” I’d like to expand on a couple of them from the text: RobM: 11. Men bartering butter milk for precious sandal wood. -> When society decays... the Dhamma will decay as monks and teachers seek money and gifts. ..... Text: “This dream too shall not have its fulfilment till the future - in the days when my doctrine is waning. For in day to come many greedy and shameless Brethren shall arise, who for their belly’s sake shall preach the very words in which I inveighed against greed! Because they have deserted by reason of their belly and have taken their stand on the side of the sectaries, they shall fail to make their preaching lead up to Nirvana. Nay, their only thought, as they preach, shall be by fine words and sweet voices to induce men to give them costly faiment and the like, and to be minded to give such gifts. Others again seated in the highways, at the street-corners, at the doors of kings’ palaces, and so forth, shall stoop to preach for money, yea for mere coined kahapanas, half-kahapanas, padas, or masakas. And as they thus barter away for food or raiment or for hahapanas or half-kahapanas my doctrine the worth whereof is Nirvana, they shall be even as those who bartered away for sour buttermilk precious sandal-wood worth 100, 000 peices....” ..... RobM: 13. Solid blocks of rock floated in the water. -> When society decays... nobles and wise men are scorned while upstarts shall thrive. Text: “This dream also shall not have its fulfilment before such times as those of which I have spoken. For in those days unrighteous kings shall show honour to the low-born, who shall become great lords, whilst the nobles sink into poverty. Not to the nobles, but to the upstarts alone shall respect be paid. In the royal presence, in the council chamber, or in the courts of justice, the words of the nobles learned in the law (and it is they whom the solid rocks typify) shall drift idly by, and not sink deep into the hearts of men; when they speak, the upstarts shall merely laugh them to scorn, saying, ‘What is this these fellows are saying?” So too in the assemblies of the Brethren; the words of such shall not sink deep, but drift idly by, - even as when the rocks floated upon the waters.” ***** Finally, I’m also thinking of the chapter in the Visuddhimagga on the destruction of the world cycles, in detail in ch X111,31 onwards. I think it’s also relevant to Nori’s thread on world affairs. We read about the omniscience of the Buddha with unlimited power to know the states related to hundreds of thousands of world cycles. “The intellect of the Buddhas is not caught by any intervening birth, nor do they miss their aim, but go straight to the wished-for place.” We can never underestimate the compassion of his teaching and its value. We read further in the Vism: 64 “What is the reason for the world’s destruction in this way? The [three] roots of the unprofitable are the reason. When any of the roots of the unprofitable of the unprofitable becomes conspicuous, the world is destroyed accordingly. When greed is more conspicuous, it is destroyed by fire. When hate is more conspicuous, it is destroyed by water - though some say that it is destroyed by fire when hate is more conspicuous, and by water when greed is more conspicuous. And when delusion is more conspicuous, it is destroyed by wind.” ***** “These six things, O monks, rarely appear in the world: Rare in the world is the appearance of a Tathaagata. Rare in the world is the appearance of one who teaches the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathaagata. Rare in the world is it to be reborn in the land of the noble ones. Rare in the world is the possession of unimpaired physical and mental faculties. Rare in the world is absence of stupidity and dullness. Rare in the world is a desire for wholesome qualities(ariyaayatane)” [AN, Bk of 6s, 135 ‘Six Rarities’, B.Bodhi transl] With metta and best wishes that we may all help preserve the sasana for a little longer through our sincere reflections, discussions and growth in understanding. Sarah ======= 24578 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:01am Subject: Bathtub musings 1 Dear group, I was sitting at my computer answering some emails when I heard the sound of running water. I realised that I'd started filling a bath, had become immersed in the emails, and forgotten the taps were still on. Leaping up, I dashed into the hall, tripped over the dog who was on his mat, scrambled to my feet, entered the bathroom and turned off the taps. The floor was wet, the bath mats soaked, and, too late, I saw some ants being washed down the floor drain. Don't you ever wonder about kamma? where and how it is recorded? what keeps track and how vipaka arises? how events are so enmeshed that the result happens to the right 'being'? how can it possibly be that my lack of mindfulness can, without intention or illwill, be the condition for terminal akusala vipaka for some unfortunate other beings (ants). Not to mention the same event being the combination of my akusala vipaka (falling over the dog) and his kusala vipaka from the same event (he thought it was a delightful new game). Perhaps I need a nice cup of tea... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24579 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > Looking for out-of-print Pali books in 2nd hand bookstores could be a > time-consuming process, so it may not be such a good idea to ask > someone if they could do this voluntarily. Another idea might be to > ask if they could try to locate an antiquarian bookseller who may > happen to specialize in such books and could help. ..... Well, I’m sure many friends here will keep this in mind. ..... > I'm interested in > all kinds of hard-to-get books printed in Pali (grammatical, > commentarial, or otherwise) and can be in any script. Perhaps on some > of your Asian travels, you could make enquiries, get an address or > two, or make a purchase for me if you're certain it's in Pali. But > don't ever go out of your way, just if it happens to be convenient and > a fun thing to do. :-) .... Well, I have to tell you, Jim, that the only criterion on which I’d probably pass your ‘simplicity living’ test with flying colours is in the almost total avoidance of shopping. I have it down to such a fine art that I can go on a trip with a very large group of shopaholic Thai friends and return with the same small bag(nothing kusala in this, let me assure you). At the beginning of the SARS crisis here, I stocked up on basics and didn’t go into a shop for nearly 3 months. (Again, it's just attachment and aversion that leads to this unusual avoidance in Hong Kong). So I’m afraid that this wouldn’t be my idea of fun. However, I do get fun from bringing it to others’ attention as I’m doing here;-) On the subject of simplicity living, where I’d fail miserably would be in the bread making;-( I think I mentioned once before that I’ve long since accepted that driving and cooking are not for me in this life. Kom gave a kind response I remember. Perhaps it’s Ok, though, because I never eat bread or butter or even drink milk and could be quite happy living on congee for months if need be. Hey, you might give me a lot of points for not having driven a car for 20 years too???? I walk almost everywhere, (even if it’s in a city). I’m glad Jon would no longer need to be banned either....and then our hiking would score well too, I think. We have no idea where we’ll be living in retirement, but I’m more inclined towards ‘simplicity in the city’ for now, I’m afraid. I don’t mean to be frivolous, Jim (let’s blame it on Icaro’s DSG influence). I sincerely hope, as you know, that your ideas materialise in this area. Azita and I could recommend one or two disrobed bhikkhus living in real simplicity and solitude. The only problem, as I see it, is that they see the internet as an intrusion and have far longer spells with ‘black outs’ and without telephone lines, so I’m not sure how the communication would work.... ..... >So for the past 30 > years except for a 5 yr gap in the 80s I've been very fortunate in > having my own retreat. I do not personally know anyone else who lives > the way I do so I think my case may be rather unsual in this day and > age. .... Thanks for sharing more of your background, Jim. Most interesting. You are unusual in this regard, but I’m sure there are others too. It’s just that without internet we don’t hear from them. You’re obviously well suited and used to this lifestyle and the extended stay in Toronto last year must have been quite a change. I hope you don’t mind, but I can’t help asking what happens if you get sick or have an accident when your tel.lines are cut and you’re living alone and without contact with neighbours? Do you have some contingency measures? .... > The main difficulty I've been having for the past five years is with > the extent to which the internet has intruded into my daily life and > I've been trying to come up with the best solution and I have to come > up with one or I could end up in the hospital or with burned out eyes. .... I should point out to Icaro, that Jim has very limited eyesight since a childhood illnes, so it’s a little more serious than our ‘burned out eye’ problems, but you weren’t to know this. .... > It also interferes with my sense of living a quiet life of seclusion > which I really need, this is not what I had in mind when I first moved > here. I need to find out if the temporary phone disconnection helps. > I'll let you know what it was like when I come back online. If it > turns out to be beneficial, I'll have to consider doing it regularly. > Just need to find the right balance, no need to give up the internet > contacts altogether. ..... As you say, it comes down to ‘balance’ and knowing what suits us and is beneficial. I think it goes along with developing right understanding and we’ll spend this life and more finding this ‘balance’. I also share the ‘gridlock’ and weak will-power often, Jim. I think we all work out ways to manage that work best for us in this regard. For me, I know that exercise is very essential every day, with special exercises for the creaky arm at the moment. I print out posts on recycled paper to read away from the computer and so on. I try to have a break at the weekend. Perhaps you could ask the tel co to cut the lines on alternate days;-) ..... > When I was thinking about the idea a few weeks ago, it led me to > thinking about some larger social issues and how a Theravada society > might function within a larger Western society. The Theravada society > could be wide enough to include everyone from all walks of life, > including hermits in the forest. I'm sure there is so much more to > write about on this topic. .... You’ve written a little more in other messages, I see. Jim, how do you understand ‘simplicity’ as far as the Dhamma is concerned? Is there any Pali equivalent that you have in mind. I’d be interested to hear more, but only answer if you wish to and if it doesn’t become another gridlock for you;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24580 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:11am Subject: Bathtub musings 2 Dear group, ... after finally cleaning up the bathroom, getting into the bath and relaxing, I noticed I was singing an old folk song 'Brisbane Waters" - sad and irish and great in an echoing bathroom. I wonder why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not common, it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for texts and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs can manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? Maybe not tea, maybe coffee .. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24581 From: Elias Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:13am Subject: desire for sex All, If the mind is mindfull there's no chance that thoughts about sex, fantasies about sex, fantasies about selfsex (masturbating), or thoughts related to sex. However 'naken' may be there, because often we do 'visual reflect' over anatta, while doing this we do undress ourself or others we reflect over. If you ex become lost in a though, miss the presence, now desire for sex may arise. If you ex play a video game, and get lost into it, miss the presence, now desire for sex may arise. If you ex, see television, get lost into it, miss the presence, now desire for sex may arise. If we wish to reach the goal, if we wich to give up all forms of sex, all forms of desire, we need to give up things that makes the mindfullness impure, what makes the mindfulness impure? Ignorance, delusion etc. Objects outside the mind do not make the mindfullness decrese, but if we cannot be still inside, and cannot see with wisdom what things outside the mind are, we get into delusion, and get lost, miss the presence. /Elias 24582 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bathtub musings 1 Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > The floor was wet, the bath mats soaked, and, too late, I > saw some ants being washed down the floor drain. > Don't you ever wonder about kamma? .... Well, sometimes. But when I read this, I wondered about whether someone should be let loose in bathrooms at all, vaguely recalling a bathroom bubbled out on another occasion in Noosa...;-) .... >where and how it is recorded? .... Ah, that’s easy..some of us have good memories for trivia and bad memories for essentials. Put it down to accumulations and let me know if you get any answers after the Cooran weekend. (Talking of which, Azita, please share more about this paper you are presenting...!!) ..... > Perhaps I need a nice cup of tea... .... Sorry, I’ve had to snip the ‘essence’ - have to rush out while you enjoy your tea.....Glad Rusty’s happy, even if the poor ants...;-( Oh, for city living without anty concerns;-) metta, Sarah Look forward to Bathtub Musings2 - maybe a whole Bathtub Diary series??? ====== 24583 From: christhedis Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:17am Subject: Different meditation techniques. Hi all, I am wondering about different techniques for doing Vipassana meditation. I have done two 10-day courses. The first one was Goenka's course, scanning every part of the body and remaining equanimous to any sensations felt. The main theme of this technique seemed to be eradication of old sankharas. The second course used the Burmese technique of watching the rising and falling of the abdomen, and the main theme there was Mindfulness. I have read that Mindfulness is central to development along the path. I know all different techniques have the same ultimate goal, but why does Goenka's technique not seem to go into mindfulness at all? I am still trying to decide which technique to adopt. The Burmese one seems to make more 'obvious' sense in understanding impermanence and not-self. However, I think the Goenka one seemed easier and more comfortable for me. Appreciate any help or comments. Thanks, Chris. 24584 From: Elias Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 hello Christine As you wrote you sang on a song, therefore it had to arise in the mind in a way of desire. Therefore 'music' etc, is not a part of the life of monks, because it's as a wall that stands up, and makes the path very hard to continue. Ofcurse one may listen to music in the presence and not generating desire, so it will not arise later in the mind, to wish to hear it again. but that's very hard, and needs a very stable mindfullness. As for culture, 'buddhist songs' etc, have not been a part because it do not help with the path, more it's a hindrence. Music is a wordly pleasure, and as you might now, wordly pleasures is to be given up in the buddhist practice, (if we wish to become monks or are monks), laypeople however listen to music. But that might also depend on the laypeoples insight, experiences, and wisdom. Music, sounds is emptiness, it do not have a begining, nor and end, nor a precense, it's not one object, nor many. anatta. So there's not need for music to generate the path, more it's a hindrance. /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, > > ... after finally cleaning up the bathroom, getting into the bath > and relaxing, I noticed I was singing an old folk song 'Brisbane > Waters" - sad and irish and great in an echoing bathroom. I wonder > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not common, > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for texts > and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs can > manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as > well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? > > Maybe not tea, maybe coffee .. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24585 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:28am Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hello Jim, and All, Thanks for your reply. I think the idea of a separate list should be given consideration, but I wonder if, initially at least, having a Simple Living for Theravadins corner on dsg might be worthwhile. My experience with a number of small lists is that they tend to dwindle and die - whereas a larger list can often shelter several separate interest groups and provide cross fertilisation, vitality and new members - either occasional 'popper-inners' or committed 'true believers'. This would also allow members to take 'leave of absence' for a few months without a huge impact on a tiny group. Whichever way it goes is fine with me. I have been catching up on the 'Solitary' thread (some great quotes!) and have found many posts point to new facets and reflections. Dhamma is not separate from life, whether we more easily find the detachment and aloneness in a crowded life or in one of physical solitariness and simplicity. I hope our accumulations would lead us to the way of living which is most conducive to beneficial study and practice. You make your own bread?! Good to hear. I used to bake my own before my daily paid work hours extended - my favourite was warm Banana bread using lashings of home made butter from our Jersey house cow, (which resulted in a significant weight gain. Currently not baking the bread, and no longer have the cow either). I was interested to hear this subject of simplifying how we live being discussed on a very early morning talk back radio programme. People of all religious backgrounds, and none, were troubled by the number of 'things' they owned - or, rather, the feeling that these 'things' really owned and oppressed them. The term they were using to discuss the solution to being overwhelmed by the clutter of possessions was 'asset stripping' - borrowed, no doubt, from the world of big business.. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Thank-you for your encouraging words. I have been thinking that if > there is enough interest out there (at least five of us), it might be > worth starting a new yahoo group specifically for discussing these > matters and to share our ideas and experiences. I did some searching > of yahoogroups categories and I thought the 'voluntary simplicity' one > might fit the best -- simple living for Theravadins! This category is > found under Cultures & Community: Issues and Causes. There are 127 > voluntary simplicity groups listed and I went through them all and > didn't see any for Buddhists, let alone Theravadins. I also thought > that such a group could include couples in addition to solitaries. I > sometimes hear stories of couples giving up citylife and good jobs to > move to a simple life in the country. > > Btw. I make all my own bread. > > Best wishes, > Jim 24586 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/26/03 6:20:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charnett@y... writes: > Hi all, > > I am wondering about different techniques for doing Vipassana > meditation. I have done two 10-day courses. The first one was Goenka's > course, scanning every part of the body and remaining equanimous to > any sensations felt. The main theme of this technique seemed to be > eradication of old sankharas. The second course used the Burmese > technique of watching the rising and falling of the abdomen, and the > main theme there was Mindfulness. > > I have read that Mindfulness is central to development along the path. > I know all different techniques have the same ultimate goal, but why > does Goenka's technique not seem to go into mindfulness at all? > > I am still trying to decide which technique to adopt. The Burmese one > seems to make more 'obvious' sense in understanding impermanence > and not-self. However, I think the Goenka one seemed easier and more > comfortable for me. > > Appreciate any help or comments. > > Thanks, > Chris. > ============================ You seem to be assuming that the Mahasi labeling technique = mindfulness. If so, I think you are mistaken. Mindfulness is a mental concomitant, which arises during many mindstates, and is not peculiar to the Mahasi meditation style. Mindfulnes is "simply" the mental operation of not getting mentally lost, but rather of attending directly (not conceptually) to whatever arises at the moment. It fosters and is fostered by concentration, and it works hand-in-glove with so-called clear comprehension. The Goenka meditation on bodily sensations is a "mindfulness practice". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24587 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning of Ayya Hi Sese & All, --- sese2k3 wrote: > Dear all friends, > > I've joined this group for several weeks ago. But I am not the > active one.Now let me introduce myself once more. > > My name is Sese. I am from Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, I've worked at a > newspaper company for 2 years. My knowledge about Buddhism is > average, although several years ago I have joined a temporary > Silacarini program for about two weeks in Mendut Monastery, Indonesia. .... I've been meaning to welcome you to DSG and am so glad when others like Chris also welcome new members. I know that for some people, it can be difficult to send that first message. Thank you also for telling us where you're from and a little more. Eagle is also from near Jakarta and Jon spent a long spell on Java a long time ago too. We went back to visit an old Buddhist friend and teacher in Solo thirty years after his stay there. I'm sure he also has some solitary living stories, but we've never discussed them and much of what I wrote yesterday about my stay in Sri Lanka, was new to him too;-)) As Nina said, she lived in Jakarta and wrote some of her manuscripts there when her husband was posted there. I think I recall her having to entertain the Dutch queen who was visiting, (probably in the early 80s, Nina, when we were living in Austalia?? I'm trying to recall what you wrote from there - perhaps it was the beginning of Survey in another series?). ..... As I said to Eagle, I sincerely hope there are no more bomb attacks in Jakarta. I read this description in a newspaper about a man: " "He is the perfect family man. He is incapable of doing wrong. I have never seen him angry (and lived in the same house with him for three years). He is a soft spoken person who never raises his voice". He detested television and watched only news programmes, telling his mother-in-law that entertainment shows corrupted the mind. But he spent "long hours on the computer at night" she said." This was not a description of a DSG member, but of Hambali, the alleged mastermind of all the bomb attacks, including Bali and Jakarta, in Indonesia and the region an closely linked to Bin Laden. Appearances can be very deceptive and accumulations very mixed as Kom was saying before. I was glad to see your question on 'Ayya' and the Bhikkhuni-Sangha which Christine already gave a neat response to. Would you like to tell us why you were particularly interested in Ayya Khema or let us know of any other interests or questions from your Buddhist studies. With metta, Sarah ==== 24588 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:00am Subject: Internet-Connection Woes Hi, all - While I have internet access for the moment, I'm writing to let you know that if at some point you receive no communications from me for an extended period, my not replying to on-list or off-list posts, it is due to having technical problems. It seems that ever since I attempted to upgrade to AOL 9.0 there's been a big problem (or perhaps several) which I have been able to occasionally do an end-run around, such as at the moment. Most of the time, I'm unable to access e-mail etc from home, and none of the tech personnel (at AOL or a Cablevision [re: the cable modem]) have been any help - the only limited breakthroughs have been due to my own muddling. So, if you stop hearing from me, well, this is likely the reason. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24589 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Nina (and Icaro), ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. N: I would like another option: object-condition is a condition by way of object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is experienced not only by citta but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the accompanying hetus. There are so many conditions operating at the same time, I am not inclined to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, a hetu is a foundation for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root is a foundation for a tree. Only in that way, as I see it. This is pretty much the way I was thinking about it when I wrote 'I think of them as two different conditions' or some such--but in much less detail, thanks, both. mike 24590 From: sese2k3 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: Meaning of Ayya Hello Christine, Thank you very much for your informations. It makes me understanding this problem clearly. Unfortunately we have controverse within Theravada tradition surrounding the term Bhikkhuni. It would make a confusion between us. I have read about Ayya Khema at the link you mentioned. I really admire Ayya Khema. There is one thing I want to know clearly about the term "nuns". Are they only commit 8 or 10 precepts at most? And how should we call a Bhikkhuni? May I call she "Bhante" too ? metta and peace, Sese --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sese, > > Ayyaa is a Pali word which means Lady (or Sister). More about Ayya > Khema can be found at this link: > http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/a_khema.htm > > There is controversy within the Theravada tradition surrounding the > term Bhikkhuni (female monk). There are some people who believe the > Bhikkhuni Sangha died out in Sri Lanka a thousand years ago, was not > revived, and is not able to be revived. Those who hold this view > allow that women can, at most, be eight or ten precept nuns. Thus, > the four-fold community of fully ordained nuns, fully ordained monks, > lay women and lay men, which the Buddha declared was integral to the > success of the Buddhadhamma, has been absent from all Theravada > countries for one thousand years. > > Other people believe the Bhikkhuni Sangha can be, and has been, > revived in Sri Lanka. Those who believe it legitimately can, and has > been, revived are working towards the objective of offering and > supporting this training pathway to increasing numbers of women. My > understanding is that there are now Bhikkhuni Training Centres in Sri > Lanka at Newgala, Panadura and Kalundewa (Dambulla) and Anuradhapura > in Sri Lanka. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > 24591 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Sarah ! --- Sarah " Let me add my bit too.... > > “In essence (...)Patthana is the > teaching of anatta.” --------------------------------------------------- Up the Irons! Exact! You see, at Buddha´s time there were many other instructors and gurus even at Magadha region - the best known were the Nigrodakappa (mentioned at Sutta Nipaata), also called Mahavir. The contact between them made arise such a intellectual boiling that all interested on their masters managed to get the teachings of all them as clear and objective as possible! Reading first the Dhammasangani and after the Patthana you can get some hints about such questionings about self and no-self. The Patthana begins with the statement of 24 Paccayas: after some reading you get how these paccayas interact with the Kusala and Akusala propositions as written in Dhammasangani - hetupaccayo and aramanapaccayo, etc, conjoined with Kusala and Akusala , hetu and ahetu Dhammas, etc, in my combinations! But all this can be a very pretty effott to translate... I am only at the beginninng of the Paccayas´description: I have got the opinion that such detailed reasonings about anatta came forth after many dialogs with Mahavir´s disciples, that preached the existence of Self with strong arguments! ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah:“...So instead of simply arguing whether > Pa.t.thaana, which is part of > Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not > I also wrote before that the other question, I > think, might be that if the > Abhidhamma was not taught by the Buddha, who else > could it have been > taught by? ---------------------------------------------------- Put buddhism in a nutshell is not so simple as it seems! Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha preaching. The Dhammasangani and the huge Patthana are magnus opus of all humanity!!!!! --------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Icaro, I think it’s great if you introduce single > Pali sentences from your > reading of Dhammasangani in Pali and also Patthana > with your rough > translation or idea. We can add the ‘formal’ > translation and discuss > further. One sentence at a time;-)Thank you for > this, I appreciate it." --------------------------------------------------- I will do it. Fortunately I´ve download ALL the Pali Tipitaka of www.tipitaka.org... and source texts will be always available! I will try also burn a CD with that material...but it belongs to the future! > Sarah: "Muito Obrigado for all the encouragement!(hope it’s > right this time;-))" -------------------------------------------------- That´s fine, Sarah. No problem! (Trimming as good as possible, Sarah!) Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24592 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: food craving help Hi June, Thank you for replying here. --- june_tg wrote: > dear sarah, > > confidence comes from putting the buddha's teachings into practice, > one by one. first you start with a little faith in the > goodness/wholesomeness of his teachings (especially after your > attachments and longings have put you through hell), which will then > grow into a higher level of confidence once you have seen the effects > of putting to practice his teachings in your daily life. .... I think I agree with you if you're saying that confidence grows as direct experience and understanding of the teachings grows. I think people are so different, that whilst some feel they've been 'through hell' first, others don't have this experience at all. What do you think? ..... > although i should also say that even though we have confidence, > sometimes it is still very easy to get discouraged. but nothing > worthwhile comes easy, so i guess the best thing to do is to never > give up. the mind is a tricky thing. .... it's true and there have been some discussions on this. See under 'Discouraged' in UP anytime: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... > my food cravings are gone. they were impermanent after all. we just > need to have a little patience. .... That seemed like quick work. I'm always having food cravings at unusual and inappropriate times like in the middle of a yoga class today;-( .... > may you grow in your meditation practice (if you are meditating, or > may you start if you aren't)...and may you and everyone else here and > all living beings everywhere be released from all forms of suffering > as soon as possible. .... Thanks June and please keep in touch to let us know how your practice, confidence and food cravings are going;-) Look forward to anything else you may care to share too. Metta, Sarah ====== 24593 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bathtub musings 2 Dear chris: --- christine_forsyth: "Maybe not tea, maybe coffee .." ----------------------------------------------------- Prayers, Hymns and chants exist at the Mahayana Buddhism (at least), for example this Dharani: "...Suryo Suryo boya suryo boya suryo, somoko!" That´s an exerpt of a more longer and older prayer...but I can´t barely imagine what this means! Perhaps in sanskrit: "...Surupaya surupaya surupaya surupaya, svaha!" Hmmm... no use anyway!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24594 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Hi Mike: --- "m. nease" This is pretty much the way I was thinking about it > when I wrote 'I think of > them as two different conditions' or some such--but > in much less detail, > thanks, both." ---------------------------------------------------- There´s a lot goin´ on ! I am only at the beginning of the Patthanapali, but taking a look at further pages I can deduce that these two or more conditions (there are 24 Paccayas!) have got more modes of reasonigs, by the means of the conjoining with sets of Kusala and Akusala factors, hetu and ahetu dhammas and so on! I am with my hands full !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24595 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:36am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I wonder > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not common, > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for texts > and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs can > manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as > well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? I have a number of Buddhist CDs that I listen to in the car. My favourites are the "Mangala Sutta" and the "Chant of Metta". At the local Buddhist bookstore there are a wide variety of CDs, including "Morning Chanting", "Evening Chanting" and selections by a Malaysian Buddhist Choral Group. A couple of years back, I sponsored the pressing of a "Parita Pali" CD by Sayadaw U Silananda. I just dug one last spare copy out of a bottom of a drawer and will be mailing it to you within the next few days. Since I will already be mailing you a package, I might as well add another CD or two. What is your preference? Pali or English? Traditional or contemporary? CD or cassette? Enjoy! Metta, Rob M :-) 24596 From: Jeff Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:49am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Greetings Rob Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd burner, but I would be more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I listed for Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional chants, or whatever you could make time for. It would be much appreciated as I can only locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. My email is JABergmann@a... Nemaste, Peace, and Love, Jeff 24597 From: Jeff Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Greetings Christine Here's a few cd's I own...makes my day a bit more mindful. :-) * "One Sound- Traditional Buddhist Music from Tibet, China, Vietnem, Korea, Sri Lanka, and Japan"/Ellipsis Arts * "The Lamas Chant- Songs of Awakening" by Lama Gyurme and Jean- Philippe Rykiel/Sony Music Entertainment * "The 14th Dalai Lama in Hawai'i"/Sakyadhita * "Sacred Chants of Buddha- Music for Inner Peace by Craig Pruess/Heaven On Earth Music Limited Nemaste, Love, and Peace, Jeff "One good thing about music...when it hits you feel no pain..." -Bob Marley 24598 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Icaro, op 25-08-2003 20:12 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > There?s more to come!!!! N: Welcome. I: That could be very difficult to assimilate because > it is not a crude idealism (the object only exists > really in our minds)but better an Antinominalism ( > objects as mind stuff are names AND things - ?sed > nominem ET res? - nama/rupa). Citta receives the Rupa > external our door-senses as an object perceived by the > eye, the ear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! N: When you receive your Christmas present (anumodana to Rob M, he is so generous), you will see many philosophical discussions about the experience of an object, about concepts etc. When someone is involved with special philosophical points of view (phenomenology, also in a more moderate form, Plato, Aristoteles, etc.) it is understandable that he wants to compare with Buddhism. However, as I see it, it will not work. Nor will the scientific approach of experience help. The goals are different. So, I do not know how to react to the above, it is different from what I understand about the experience of objects one at a time. As I said, it is difficult to really know what the visible is, that which appears through the eye-door. It is difficult to know what a doorway is. I do not claim to understand these things, but let me be the parrot, as our friend Num says, imitating what I learnt: when your eyes are closed and then you open them, something appears what was not there before. There is not yet an image, but through eyes only: just colour or what is visible. The same through ears: when you do not pay attention to the source or the meaning of the sound, but just the characteristic of sound is heard, you can consider the meaning of audible object. This is the way to learn what sense objects are. No need to think of them as concepts in the mind. It would be wonderful if Jon would butt in and add something. I like to be reminded. When you learn about the processes of citta (viithi cittas), you will know that just colour, just sound are also experienced in a mind-door process following the sense-door process. You will also learn that even before we know what something is there are already akusala javanacittas. That is so because of accumulations and the niyaama of the order of cittas succeeding one another so fast. You could look at the Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanavagga, right from the beginning, about the objects experienced through the senses and the lobha which follows. The world (loka) is impermanent, it crumbles away (lujjati). These suttas are a real help, and you have them all now within reach!!! When different sense objects are experienced, we do not think of a concept yet, there are other processes later on which think of a thing, of the whole of impressions. As you will see (from your Christmas present) there can be much confusion as to pa~n~natti. Different people mean different things by it. Nina. 24599 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Selamat,apa kabar. I was so glad to hear from you. Could you tell us more about the group discussions you have? How did the gold and silver for monks discussion continue, you mentioned on Pali list? With appreciation, Nina. op 26-08-2003 02:35 schreef nana_palo@c... op nana_palo@c...: > Dear Eagle, please don't hesitate to contact me. 24600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:39am Subject: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Tika Visuddhimagga No 7. 7. dhammaana.m sako bhaavo, samaano ca bhaavo dhammasabhaavo. ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true nature. tattha pa.thamena kakkha.laphusanaadisalakkha.na.m gahita.m, dutiyena aniccadukkhataadisaama~n~nalakkha.na.m. Here, with regard to the first meaning (of characteristic), the coarse characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second meaning, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. tadubhayassa ca yaathaavato pa.tivijjhanalakkha.naa pa~n~naati aaha ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa''ti. And with regard to both meanings (of characteristic), he said that understanding is the true penetration of the characteristics, with the words, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual natures of dhammas.² gha.tapa.taadipa.ticchaadakassa baahirandhakaarassa diipaalokaadi viya just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, yathaavuttadhammasabhaavapa.ticchaadakassa mohandhakaarassa viddha.msanarasaa. even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of dhammas. uppajjamaano eva hi pa~n~naaloko hadayandhakaara.m vidhamento eva.m uppajjati, When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, tato eva dhammasabhaavesu asammuyhanaakaarena paccupati.t.thatiiti asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non-bewilderment with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its manifestation is non-delusion. kaara.nabhuutaa vaa saya.m phalabhuuta.m asammoha.m paccupa.t.thaapetiiti evampi asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its manifestation is non-delusion. vipassanaapa~n~naaya idha adhippetattaa ``samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana''nti vutta.m. Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration is its proximate cause². tathaa hi `` samaahito yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatii''ti suttapada.m nibandhanabhaavena aagata.m. Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. pa~n~naapabhedakathaava.n.nanaa The explanation of the division on understanding. ****** English: ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true nature. Here, with regard to the first phrase, the coarse characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second phrase, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. As to ³understanding² which has the characteristic of the precise understanding of both (kinds of characteristics), he said, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual natures of dhammas.² just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of dhammas. When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non-bewilderment with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its manifestation is non-delusion. Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its manifestation is non-delusion. Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration is its proximate cause². Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. The explanation of the division on understanding. ***** Nina. 24601 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Sir Mike! :o) "Really great to hear from you. I've often wondered what had become of you as things seemed to be improving in SL." Yes at least the number of dead body count came down drastically, but now the peace process is at a dead lock becase of the disagreements between govt and terrorists. Are you back in seattle , mike? "I'll notify 'Homeland Security' of your whereabouts." :o) best regards, gayan 24602 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:23am Subject: Re: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Nina, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Dhamma has its own characteristics. It is its own nature. Nature is nature. Nature governs by its own laws. When these laws can be realized, everything can be realized. Thanks for your effort. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Tika Visuddhimagga No 7. > > 7. dhammaana.m sako bhaavo, samaano ca bhaavo dhammasabhaavo. > ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true > nature. > > tattha pa.thamena kakkha.laphusanaadisalakkha.na.m gahita.m, dutiyena > aniccadukkhataadisaama~n~nalakkha.na.m. > Here, with regard to the first meaning (of characteristic), the coarse > characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second > meaning, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. > > tadubhayassa ca yaathaavato pa.tivijjhanalakkha.naa pa~n~naati aaha > ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa''ti. > And with regard to both meanings (of characteristic), he said that > understanding is the true penetration of the characteristics, with the > words, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the > individual natures of dhammas.² > > > gha.tapa.taadipa.ticchaadakassa baahirandhakaarassa diipaalokaadi viya > just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the > darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, > > yathaavuttadhammasabhaavapa.ticchaadakassa mohandhakaarassa > viddha.msanarasaa. > even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness > of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of > dhammas. > > uppajjamaano eva hi pa~n~naaloko hadayandhakaara.m vidhamento eva.m > uppajjati, > When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner > darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, > > tato eva dhammasabhaavesu asammuyhanaakaarena paccupati.t.thatiiti > asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. > and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non- bewilderment > with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its > manifestation is non-delusion. > > kaara.nabhuutaa vaa saya.m phalabhuuta.m asammoha.m paccupa.t.thaapetiiti > evampi asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. > Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation > of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its > manifestation is non-delusion. > > vipassanaapa~n~naaya idha adhippetattaa ``samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana''nti > vutta.m. Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration > is its proximate cause². > > tathaa hi `` > samaahito yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatii''ti suttapada.m nibandhanabhaavena > aagata.m. > Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² > are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. > > pa~n~naapabhedakathaava.n.nanaa > > The explanation of the division on understanding. > > ****** > English: > > ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true > nature. > Here, with regard to the first phrase, the coarse characteristic such as > touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second phrase, the general > characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. > As to ³understanding² which has the characteristic of the precise > understanding of both (kinds of characteristics), he said, ²understanding > has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual natures of > dhammas.² > just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the > darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, > even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness > of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of > dhammas. > When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner > darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, > and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non- bewilderment > with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its > manifestation is non-delusion. > Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation > of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its > manifestation is non-delusion. > Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration is its > proximate cause². > Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² > are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. > The explanation of the division on understanding. > > ***** > Nina. 24603 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Htoo naing: --- htootintnaing: "Dhamma has its own characteristics. It is its own > nature. Nature is > nature. Nature governs by its own laws. When these > laws can be > realized, everything can be realized." --------------------------------------------------- Understood! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24604 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All My Dear Fellow! ----- Original Message ----- From: Gayan Karunaratne To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All > Sir Mike! :o) > > "Really great to hear from you. I've often wondered what had become of you > as things seemed to be improving in SL." > > Yes at least the number of dead body count came down drastically, but now > the peace process is at a dead lock becase of the disagreements between govt > and terrorists. It never ends...of course, we don't hear much hear because little in the way of business interests. > Are you back in seattle , mike? I am--ordination in Thailand didn't work out, so I'm back for the duration. > "I'll notify 'Homeland Security' of your whereabouts." > > :o) > > best regards, Back At You, Sir, mike 24605 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Dear Nina, "So pleased to hear from you. I like the last wish. We have to know our akusala, not ignore it. Good reminder. So many moments of selfishness pass unnoticed. " its all self-self-self "As Mike said,< learning to recognize the prevalence and subtlety of akusala is not only invaluable in itself, it also points up the indispensibility of detailed understanding (hence abhidhamma) to practice.> I hope to hear from you again," Pleasure is all mine to read all your posts. best regards, gayan. 24606 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:08pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hello RobM, Thank you RobM - please send just whatever is conveniently to hand. English or Pali? Well, English would be lovely, and then again, as I am doing Intermediate Pali at Uni. Qld. Pali would be lovely as well. Decisions, decisions. I'll leave it up to you. :-) [I am getting a new carin a few weeks - my current one was second or third hand ten years ago when I got it and doesn't have a CD player (imagine that!). So, very soon, I'll be able to listen while driving too. :-)] Don't worry! I'll let everyone know when I'm on the road and you can all stay home. :-) Your continual generosity is appreciated very much, Rob. May I offer in exchange a CD of the Dhamma talks at a nine day meditation retreat by Ajahn Brahmavamso - and, my never ending delight, a superb CD of ten audio lectures "The Buddha's Teaching As It Is" ten audio lectures on the fundamentals of the Dhamma by the incomparable Bhikkhu Bodhi. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > I wonder > > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not > common, > > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for > texts > > and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs > can > > manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as > > well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? > > I have a number of Buddhist CDs that I listen to in the car. My > favourites are the "Mangala Sutta" and the "Chant of Metta". At the > local Buddhist bookstore there are a wide variety of CDs, > including "Morning Chanting", "Evening Chanting" and selections by a > Malaysian Buddhist Choral Group. > > A couple of years back, I sponsored the pressing of a "Parita Pali" > CD by Sayadaw U Silananda. I just dug one last spare copy out of a > bottom of a drawer and will be mailing it to you within the next few > days. > > Since I will already be mailing you a package, I might as well add > another CD or two. What is your preference? Pali or English? > Traditional or contemporary? CD or cassette? > > Enjoy! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24607 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Passivity in buddhism hi all, howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect suppositions" I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be presenting it wrong. I'll try in other words: The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of ones life is to be completely free of suffering. And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options can involve - to live with suffering. This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of disregarding. For example: It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and the unbeloved is to live in solitude. ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). Thoughts are appreciated. with metta, nori 24608 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: Passivity in buddhism Hello Nori, Howard, all, Interesting thoughts, interesting discussion. I'm late for work or I'd join in ... are we all agreed on exactly what suffering is? i.e. what the Buddha taught it is? Do we understand what 'detachment' is? - I don't think it is passivity, or indifference, or doing nothing. Nori - you mention 'the goal of one's life' - for me, as always, looming over all of this is Samsara and the relentless rounds of rebirth - all without discernible beginning. And complicating matters further is anatta - metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing > this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. > > Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect > suppositions" > > I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be > presenting it wrong. > > I'll try in other words: > > The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of > ones life is to be completely free of suffering. > > And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options > can involve - to live with suffering. > > This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a > passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of > disregarding. > > For example: > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I > certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of > ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal > of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the > suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori 24609 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, Thank-you for your response. You've touched on many interesting points and really too many for me to respond to all at once. I will just take up a bit of what you wrote. [...] > I don't mean to be frivolous, Jim (let's blame it on Icaro's DSG > influence). I sincerely hope, as you know, that your ideas materialise in > this area. Azita and I could recommend one or two disrobed bhikkhus living > in real simplicity and solitude. The only problem, as I see it, is that > they see the internet as an intrusion and have far longer spells with > 'black outs' and without telephone lines, so I'm not sure how the > communication would work.... The communication could work through snail mail. I can sympathize with these two ex-bhikkhus seeing the internet as an intrusion as that's exactly how I'm seeing it now. However, I'm looking to make a compromise by restricting my usage and if I do get caught up in it again, I can always disconnect. [...] > I hope you don't mind, but I can't help asking what happens if you get > sick or have an accident when your tel.lines are cut and you're living > alone and without contact with neighbours? Do you have some contingency > measures? I seldom get sick or have an accident. The last accident was a year ago when I twisted my knee while out walking, but it wasn't serious enough to warrant seeing a doctor although that did cross my mind. I don't recall ever having to make an emergency call all the time I've been here and so it seems unlikely that this could happen during a short period, but if it does, and depending on the gravity of the situation, I can either send a letter to Orillia which might only take a day or two to reach or I can get in touch with my neighbour next door if it's a real emergency. [...] > .... > You've written a little more in other messages, I see. Jim, how do you > understand 'simplicity' as far as the Dhamma is concerned? Is there any > Pali equivalent that you have in mind. I'd be interested to hear more, but > only answer if you wish to and if it doesn't become another gridlock for > you;-) I wasn't thinking of any Pali word in particular for 'simplicity'. Buddhadatta gives: 1. amissataa 2. viniitataa 3. sugamataa. I was just thinking that 'voluntary simplicity' reflected my ideas of living a simple life along the lines of fewness of wishes (icchataa), contentment with little, enjoyment of a quiet life away from the hustle and bustle of the modern world, having more leisure time to devote oneself to meditation and study, and so on. I think there is quite a lot in the Theravada teachings to support such a life. I think one of the problems of living truly as a bhikkhu is the incredibly wide gap between it and living as a layperson in a busy modern society. It seems to me that for most people it is taking quite a psychological leap to go from one to the other, a leap that was probably not so great during the time of the Buddha when most people were living a much simpler life than now. I'm thinking that the simple life as a layperson could be a bridge between the two in that the layperson is free to work at his own pace towards the bhikkhu/homeless person ideal. I also understand that there can be other approaches too, it's really up to each individual to work out what's best. One could also take up a simple solitary life in the city. Although I'm planning to go offline at the end of September, I will soon be easing off from the internet traffic (I'm already looking for the exit!) and not responding as much as before, but will keep looking in and post the odd message. Best wishes, Jim 24610 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Christine, Thank-you for your response. I agree with you. It doesn't appear that there is enough interest (at least not yet) to warrant starting up another list anytime soon. I'd just as soon put that idea aside for now and take a wait and see approach. I also have the problem with clutter and how to get rid of it. It's really amazing what one accumulates in a lifetime. I like the term 'asset stripping'. Best wishes, Jim > Hello Jim, and All, > > Thanks for your reply. I think the idea of a separate list should be > given consideration, but I wonder if, initially at least, having a > Simple Living for Theravadins corner on dsg might be worthwhile. My > experience with a number of small lists is that they tend to dwindle > and die - whereas a larger list can often shelter several separate > interest groups and provide cross fertilisation, vitality and new > members - either occasional 'popper-inners' or committed 'true > believers'. This would also allow members to take 'leave of absence' > for a few months without a huge impact on a tiny group. Whichever > way it goes is fine with me. [...] 24611 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Hi Nori If Buddhism has you interested to this point; it would be a good idea to study the SuttaPitaka (Primarily the Four Great Nikayas) as these are almost universally accredited to the historical Buddha. Its clear that you have not accepted the Buddha's teaching nor understood quite what it is about. I don't think understanding will clear up without a year or more of consistent study of the Four Great Nikayas. Understanding has to be developed through "self introspection" combined with studying the Buddha's teaching. It's very hard to get a handle on it by asking peoples opinions in an online group. (Even an esteemed one like this.) ;) Comments on a few of your passages are below... Nori said... >>>It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and >>>maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. >>>... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and >>>the unbeloved is to live in solitude. >>>... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & >>>home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. TG... This is basically all correct. Hence the life of a monk. Monks generally do interact with society but in a limited fashion. Nori...>>>I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I >>>certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of >>>ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal >>>of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the >>>suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). TG...I think only a deep investigation into the psychological aspects that generate suffering are going to solve these dilemmas. These are also found in the Four Great Nikayas. The 12 Fold Chain that explains the generation of suffering and the way to break the links that lead to sufferings end is crucial. But the entire context of the Suttas rounds-out and explains the issues in full. Deciphering it is a bit of a skill however. It might also become clear to you that the Buddha's teaching lays out the most "righteous" Path possible!!! No good comes from anyone's suffering. But the only course you can steer with certitude is your own. Like the teachings say..."you got to pull yourself out of the mud before you can properly assist others." TG Thoughts are appreciated. with metta, nori In a message dated 8/26/2003 2:32:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi all, > > howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing > this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. > > Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect > suppositions" > > I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be > presenting it wrong. > > I'll try in other words: > > The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of > ones life is to be completely free of suffering. > > And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options > can involve - to live with suffering. > > This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a > passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of > disregarding. > > For example: > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I > certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of > ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal > of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the > suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > 24612 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Sarah, Thank you so much. I enjoyed every word and appreciate the time you have taken to write this. Sarah: "...and have never > since felt the slightest inclination or need to do anything in particular > or be in any particular place or lifestyle in order to develop > satipatthana." "...> I was so happy to feel `free' from the great burden of searching for the > truth or following a particular ritual." While I have often contemplated doing something like you have done (that takes a lot of bal... ehem, guts), I also thought, depending on what kind of situation I end up in, it might not be more conducive to enlightenment. For one thing, I would not have access to the entire tipitaka for study. Also, other problems might arise distracting me from progress. From Itivuttaka: § 82. {Iti III.33; Iti 75} "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "These three divine sounds sound forth among the devas on appropriate occasions. Which three? When a disciple of the noble ones, shaving off his hair & beard, clothing himself in the ochre robe, makes up his mind to go forth from the home life into homelessness, on that occasion the divine sound sounds forth among the devas: 'This disciple of the noble ones has made up his mind to do battle with Mara.' This is the first divine sound that sounds forth among the devas on appropriate occasions." This is suggested many times in the tipitaka. Maybe this is for those in advanced stages. In the meantime, I will do battle with mara right here. First I must know the basics. Back in those times in Kosala territory, it might have been more conducive to attainment then today (to be homeless) since many learned men wandered about and it gave one access to the teachings; Since writing did not exist yet, one could not just read them in a book, or on the internet. Thanks again for sharing your experience. with gratitude and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori, > > It's nearly 30 years since I spent that time living in a forest monastery, > really living in solitude and seldom speaking at all, strictly following 8 > precepts ...snip 24613 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: desire for sex hi elias (and anyone with information), ...since somebody brought this up (I was embarrassed to ask): Is the physical desire for sex really triggered by thoughts ? Or is it just a natural physical chemical reaction ? Sometimes I just wake up in the morning with the feeling of sexual desire before any thoughts of it. How is this avoided ? Is this bad ? ...and by the way is masturbation considered wrong conduct ? with metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > All, > > If the mind is mindfull there's no chance that thoughts about sex, > fantasies about sex, fantasies about selfsex (masturbating), ...snip 24614 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Hi Chris, I am only superficially familiar with the Burmese technique and the Goenka technique but I would say the Goenka technique works rather one pointedly with the feeling khandha while the Burmese technique works with whatever arises. Which one to choose is mostly a matter of what suits your accumulations. You might also consider why you meditate. The above techniques are aimed primarily at insight. I meditate to cultivate tranquility, discipline the mind, and work with the hindrances. For that, anapanasati straight out of the sutta is fine. Insight is mostly prompted by considering the dhamma. Larry 24615 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/26/03 5:32:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi all, > > howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing > this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank *you*. Actually, we ruffle our own feathers by reacting. Learning not ot react testily to what we don't like in some respect is darn good Buddhist practice. --------------------------------------------------- > > Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect > suppositions" > > I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be > presenting it wrong. > > I'll try in other words: > > The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of > ones life is to be completely free of suffering. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would add also assisting others in freeing themselves from suffering. This is a clear element of the Dhamma, to be found in all schools, though made most explicit in Mahayana. I think that where we may differ at least in part is in what we mean by 'suffering'. The way I understand the Dhamma as understanding the term is as mental pain due to craving and aversion. It is not mere unpleasantness, even extreme unpleasantness. ---------------------------------------------------- > > And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options > can involve - to live with suffering. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Living with unpleasant conditions is unavoidable, even by arahants. But living with suffering is avoidable, and the noble eightfold path is exactly the means to that end. Some Buddhists understand parinibbana as absence of all conditions, not just absence of apparently separate, self-existent conditions, but absence of all psychophysical experience/conditions whatsoever in *any* sense, and if, indeed, that understanding is correct, then the beyond the death of an arahant, not even unpleasantness remains. ------------------------------------------------------ > > This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a > passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of > disregarding. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The practice of the Dhamma is exactly the opposite of avoidance. The Dhamma has precise mindfulness and clear comprehension of exactly what arises as central to the practice. We don't conquer suffering by avoiding what we find unpleasant and by grasping after what we find pleasant. We conquer suffering by attention instead of inattention - mindfulness instead of mindlessness, and this together with a cultivation of calm and nonreaction. ------------------------------------------------------- > > For example: > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is not the approach of the Buddha. It is the "natural" but disastrous approach of every worldling there has ever been. (With regard to the living off alms part: The life of a monk is the life of a specialist, and it includes conditions that optimize practice. It is not a matter of avoidance in the aversive sense, but of simply providing conditions suitable to more rapid progress. It is an option open to Buddhists in general - though, unfortunately not women at the moment except in a limited fashion - and it does not involve coercion. Those who choose to support the Sangha are free to do so, and those who choose not to are free to so choose.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I > certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of > ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal > of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the > suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I enthousiastically join you in your dedication to righteousness, and if I thought that righteousness and love and compassion, on the one hand, and one's personal escape from dukkha, on the other, were incompatible, then I would forego the escape. Fortunately, as I see it, and as I understand the Dhamma as seeing it, these fit together hand in glove, with total compatibility, and, in fact, mutual support. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24616 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Hi Nina, Well done! This clears up what happened to the general characteristics. Could we say, for example, the understanding by an insight knowledge of the specific characteristic of hardness is understanding hardness as impermanent, suffering, or not self? I think we will find out what an insight knowledge is later in the chapter. Larry 24617 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Hi again, Nori - In a message dated 8/26/03 7:35:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > >For example: > > > >It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > >maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > > >... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > >the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > > >... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > >home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is not the approach of the Buddha. It is the "natural" but > disastrous approach of every worldling there has ever been. =========================== What I wrote here is unclear. My point was that the Buddha didn't recommend separating oneself from family, society, and work as an aversive avoidance practice, but simply as a supportive technique for the "specialist". Where I referred to "the 'natural' but disastrous approach of every worldling," I meant the practice of aversive avoidance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24618 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:22pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Jeff, Please send your snail mail address to my email address and let me know what kind of music / chanting you would like. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" wrote: > Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd burner, but I would be > more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I listed for > Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional chants, or whatever > you could make time for. It would be much appreciated as I can only > locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. 24619 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism hi howard, me: > > For example: > > > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The life of a monk is the life of a specialist, and it > includes conditions that optimize practice. It is not a matter of avoidance in the > aversive sense, but of simply providing conditions suitable to more rapid > progress. also howard... > My point was that the Buddha didn't recommend separating oneself > from family, society, and work as an aversive avoidance practice, > but simply as a supportive technique for the "specialist". It is still the case that by taking the choice 'to provide conditions for his own rapid progress', he is also sacrificing part of his ability (in some respects) to act for others as a functional member of the community/family. ... but like many have mentioned, he still teaches and sustains the dhamma, that is his part in community. Thanks for your helpful comments. peace and metta, nori 24620 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi christine & Rob, christine wrote: > > I wonder > > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not > common, > > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? I could tell you why Buddhism has no songs or hymns. The Buddha was quite against music. -------------- Digha Nikaya 11 Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta "He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from watching shows." --------------- ...also from monastic code (access to insight): There is a dukkata for going to see dancing, singing, or music. According to the Commentary, "dancing" includes going to see even peacocks dancing. It also includes dancing oneself and getting others to dance. (The Rona Sutta -- A.III.103 -- notes that, in the discipline of the noble ones, dancing counts as insanity.) "Singing" includes drama music as well as "sadhu music," which according to the Sub-commentary means music dealing with Dhamma themes such as impermanence. Other religious music would come under this prohibition as well. The Commentary adds that "singing" also includes singing oneself and getting others to sing. The same holds true for "playing music." (The Rona Sutta also notes that, in the discipline of the noble ones, singing counts as wailing.) However, there is no offense in snapping one's fingers or clapping one's hands in irritation or exasperation. There is also no offense if, within the monastery, one happens to see/hear dancing, singing, or music, but if one goes from one dwelling to another with the intention to see/hear, one incurs a dukkata. The same holds true for getting up from one's seat with the intention to see/hear; or if, while standing in a road, one turns one's neck to see. ------------------ This was a tough one for me since I love music. I used to compose music as well, and play some percussive instruments but not so much anymore (because of buddhist practice?; who knows.) I still listen to music some times. peace and metta, nori 24621 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Nori says: > It is still the case that by taking the choice 'to provide conditions > for his own rapid progress', he is also sacrificing part of his > ability (in some respects) to act for others as a functional member > of the community/family. ... but like many have mentioned, he still > teaches and sustains the dhamma, that is his part in community. > > Thanks for your helpful comments. > > > peace and metta, > > nori I agree with you description of sacrificing, but we also have to remember that by taking up the lay life, becoming a lay functional member of the community/family he/she is also sacrificing his/her ability to sustain the Dhamma through the practice of the path laid out by the Buddha. This is from Iti 98 "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these two kinds of gifts: a gift of material things & a gift of the Dhamma. Of the two, this is supreme: a gift of the Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: sharing of material things & sharing of the Dhamma. Of the two, this is supreme: sharing of the Dhamma. There are these two kinds of assistance: assistance with material things & assistance with the Dhamma. Of the two, this is supreme: help with the Dhamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html I think it is this relationship between lay and ordained that has enabled Buddhism to last as long as it has, like two sticks leaning together to hold up the teachings of the Buddha. Take one stick away and the other falls. So even in times when both are hard to maintain due to external stresses, such as drought, etc, both sides have found strength in continuing the mutual support... In Metta Ray 24622 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi Nori, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > I could tell you why Buddhism has no songs or hymns. > > The Buddha was quite against music. > > -------------- > Digha Nikaya 11 > Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta > > "He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from > watching shows." > --------------- > ...also from monastic code (access to insight): > > There is a dukkata for going to see dancing, singing, or music. > According to the Commentary, "dancing" includes going to see even > peacocks dancing. It also includes dancing oneself and getting others > to dance. (The Rona Sutta -- A.III.103 -- notes that, in the > discipline of the noble ones, dancing counts as insanity.) "Singing" > includes drama music as well as "sadhu music," which according to the > Sub-commentary means music dealing with Dhamma themes such as > impermanence. Other religious music would come under this prohibition > as well. The Commentary adds that "singing" also includes singing > oneself and getting others to sing. The same holds true for "playing > music." (The Rona Sutta also notes that, in the discipline of the > noble ones, singing counts as wailing.) However, there is no offense > in snapping one's fingers or clapping one's hands in irritation or > exasperation. There is also no offense if, within the monastery, one > happens to see/hear dancing, singing, or music, but if one goes from > one dwelling to another with the intention to see/hear, one incurs a > dukkata. The same holds true for getting up from one's seat with the > intention to see/hear; or if, while standing in a road, one turns > one's neck to see. > > ------------------ > > This was a tough one for me since I love music. > > I used to compose music as well, and play some percussive instruments > but not so much anymore (because of buddhist practice?; who knows.) > > I still listen to music some times. The Buddha had one set of rules for laypeople and one set of rules for monks. It is true that the Buddha did not approve of monks being involved in music. This is because the Buddha did not want to encourage the monks to participate in any activities that might lead to attachment to the senses. On a similar theme, the Vinaya suggests that monks should not cook for themselves (the temptation to choose to cook things that they liked to eat would be very strong). Monks are not allowed to be married as marriage brings attachments. The Buddha was not against householders getting married. The Buddha was not against householders preparing their own food. As far as I know, the Buddha was not against householders being involved in music. From time to time, there are shows involving singing and dancing staged at the temple. These are done by Sunday School kids, as part of "public ceremonies", to entertain large groups of visiting old folks / orphans, etc. . The monks are sometimes observers, but never participants in these shows. Metta, Rob M :-) 24623 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:51pm Subject: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, You were saying: --------------- > Generally speaking, I accept with little > questioning, but with constant consideration for > purposes of understanding, what appears to have come > directly from the Buddha. I truly do not know whether > this includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, > . . . . > > At this point, I have to depend on synopses, > commentaries (mostly reports of commentaries), and > characterizations, some of which material rings true to > me and some of which, from my observation, contradicts > basic teachings given in the Sutta Pitaka. ------------- Which contradictions do you have in mind? The controversial areas that I'm aware of seem to involve personal preferences rather than contradictions. For example, I would prefer that the suttas didn't acquiesce in slavery and the subordination of women. Furthermore, I don't like the assumption that gods and demons play a role in the human world (influencing the weather, for example). Nor am I entirely happy about the heart being the organ of the mind (as asserted in the commentaries). But these things are no impediment when considered in light of the whole Tipitaka. For example, we read that a dutiful wife treats her parents-in-law as if they were gods. We might have trouble with that outmoded notion but we have also been taught that living beings and cultural practices are not real, they are conventional designations. So we understand the example as a conventional explanation of kusala citta with metta. And there is no problem. I think we should learn what is in the texts. Once we start to strike out troublesome parts, we are on a long and slippery slope: we have begun to rewrite the whole Theravada tradition. -------------- > But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my meaning > of that word, then concepts are conditioned mind-door > objects, and are not special except for their > usefulness and their perils. --------------- But which conditioned object could they be? Vitakka? Vicara? Unlikely; I don't see how a thought could be the same as "thought conception" or "discursive thinking." That would be like saying that a cake is the same as 'mixing' or 'baking.' -------------------- > I do not believe that what a microbe or a > hungry ghost will find pleasant/unpleasant is the same > as what a human finds pleasant/unpleasant. ------------------- What I was referring to was not what is 'found to be' pleasant, but what 'is' pleasant. The objects of kusala vipaka-citta and akusala vipaka-citta are inherently pleasant and unpleasant respectively. As properties of sense objects, 'pleasant' and 'unpleasant' are absolute: they are not influenced by how those sense objects are perceived. ------------- > If I'm incorrect, so what? This issue is a very > small one, of little import -------------- I think the important thing is that we ascertain what is in the Tipitaka. Only then, can it be proved or disproved by experience. --------- > . . . > > As far as commentaries are concerned, well, they > are there to be perused, considered, and appreciated, > but not to be put at the same level as the word of the > Buddha. ------------ They are what the Theras believed to be the meaning of the word of the Buddha. Maybe they are not to be put on the same level as the actual word. Even so, they deserve a much higher level than any contrary opinions held by us, don't you agree? Kind regards, Ken H 24624 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Dear Larry, op 26-08-2003 08:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > How would you translate patisambhida N: It is translated as discriminative knowledge or analytical knowledge. P.E.D. More important to understand what they mean. Nina. 24625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Jakarta Dear Sarah op 26-08-2003 13:51 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I think I recall her having to > entertain the Dutch queen who was visiting, (probably in the early 80s, > Nina, when we were living in Austalia?? I'm trying to recall what you > wrote from there - perhaps it was the beginning of Survey in another > series?). Princess Juliana (former queen) and Prince Bernhard made a journey in Indonesia and I had to accompany them, Lodewijk was in the Hgue for an important IGGI meeting. In '82. Not easy to be alone, helping to ease conflicting situations among members of the suite. I wrote Letters from Jakarta, but never on computer. They are among my collection of letters which is with Pinna. Not Survey, that is A. Sujin's work. P.S. I hope Sese will also contact the Bogor group, and then share the discussion over there with us. Nina. 24626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma dating. Dear Icaro, There are many posts on the subject of the dating of the Abhidhamma. I shall repost part of what Sarah wrote: see below. op 26-08-2003 15:13 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was > written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. > It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a > text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, > meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering > too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha > preaching. Nina quotes posts from Sarah: Nina: The word of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Vinaya as taught by him, consists of nine divisions which are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyåkaraùa, Gåthå, Udåna, Itivuttaka, Jåtaka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. See the ³Expositor², Atthasåliní, Introductory Discourse, 26. The teachings as compiled (not yet written) literature are thus enumerated in the scriptures as nine divisions, for example in the ³Middle Length Sayings² I, no. 22. (Majjhima Nikaya, you can find it in your down load.) Sutta, geyya, etc. are nine divisions (angas) of the Tipitaka, and of these: Veyyåkaraùa or ³Exposition² includes the Abhidhamma Piìaka, the suttas without verses, and the words of the Buddha which are not included in the other eight divisions. Post from Sarah: Also from Sarah: QUOTE ***** "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." "These passages clearly show that Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time because rules about it were laid down by Him. c)"Also in Middle Length Sayings 1, p.270.....Gosinga sal-wood.......Further dhamma...*....Mogallana is a talker on dhamma** Footnotes * "It is Abhidhamma and it is specifically stated in the Burmese Editions.... ** "Moggallana is called chief of those of psychic power, Ai,23. MA ii,256 explains that abhidhamma-men, having come to knowledge of subtle points, having increased their vision, can achieve a supermundane state’. Non-abhidhamma-men get muddled between ‘own doctrine’(sakavaada) and ‘other doctrine’ (paravaada)." d)"Again, at the time The Buddha returned to Sankassanagara from Tavatimsa, the realm of 33 gods, Sariputta, in Sariputta Sutta, unttered the following in praise of The Buddha: "Erst have I never seen Nor heard of one with voice So sweet as his who came From Tusita to teach." (Suttanipata verse No 955, transl by E.M. Hare, p.139) ...... "This verse is also found in Mahaniddesa (Sixth Synod, p.386), where there is a detailed commentary on it. The following is the commentary on the first line: "At the time The Buddha, after having resided for the period of Lent on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa, came down to Sankassanagara.......... "When Sariputta, based on the methods given by The Buddha, preached Abhidhamma to his pupils, The Buddha not only stated that He had expounded the Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa but also narrated this Sariputta Sutta to be left behind as evidence of having done so for the later generations. The Mahaniddesa was included in the Three Councils.> ***** Note:The Bahiranidana is the intro to the Co of the Vinaya by Buddhaghosa. You will have your hands full. I quote these passages because I find that there are many misunderstandings about the dating of the Abhidhamma. This subject comes up all the time, as you will see. And see this one from Sarah today: <“But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, sutta means the three baskets which the three Councils recited. ‘Accordance with sutta’ means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate]. ‘The word of a teacher’ means the commentary.> N: Thus three Baskets, not two. Abhidhamma is included. Nina. 24627 From: Elias Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: desire for sex hello nori, be not embarassed, in daily wordly life, people are embarrassed of thigns related to sex because, they have made em to something they are not. If your mind is stable you canr eflect over sex, if it's not stable, it's a chance you will see in delusion. Ex, let's reflect over anal sex, if we experience to go to the toilet and 'do a poo', it's not so pelasure and attractive is it? mostly anything related to rectum, anus is disgusting. But anal sex, we become blindly, why? because the desire, pleasure is so much bigger then the view of reality. so sex is driven by desire. reflect over peeing, how nice is that? atractive, ? but when vaginal sex is reflected/experienced, suddenly it's not disgusting anymore, because desire, it makes you blind. Physical sex for desire is triggered by desluion, ignorance, abd an unstable mind. and leads into a physical chemical reaction. As for the mornings, under the sleep, the midn have wandered so much, because there's no controll over it, to dream is not to clear ones mind, the mind goes insane, really wild. it goes here and here, the past, all dreams have something to do with the past, there may be a person from the past in the dream ex, so when you lay down for sleep the midnfullness get lost, because you sleep, and it goes wild. i've read the buddha did even have a stable mind during sleep. so it's natural to wake up with sexual desire, it sems sexual desire is triggered actually with ignorance and delusion. and un unminfullness mind. if the midn is mindfull and wise, no chance sex can hit your mind and change it's pattern. as for masturbating, no, i living a laylife this is not wrong, but for a monk it's a rule to no have any way of sex. if you do amsturbate, often or unoften, just when it hit you for masturbating, now try to go out from it, try to sneak out, to restrain yourself from doing it. it will seem rather impossible because the desire is so strong. there may be masturbating without any pictures in the mind of naked human beings, but the desire for the pleasure is still there. so, no mastubating is not considered wrong conduct. but, ex, if looking on anothers wife and masturbating, this would maybe be wrong conduct, or looking on adultary porn? /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi elias (and anyone with information), > > ...since somebody brought this up (I was embarrassed to ask): > > Is the physical desire for sex really triggered by thoughts ? > > Or is it just a natural physical chemical reaction ? > > Sometimes I just wake up in the morning with the feeling of sexual > desire before any thoughts of it. > > How is this avoided ? Is this bad ? > > ...and by the way is masturbation considered wrong conduct ? > > > > with metta, > > nori > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" > wrote: > > All, > > > > If the mind is mindfull there's no chance that thoughts about sex, > > fantasies about sex, fantasies about selfsex (masturbating), > ...snip 24628 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: desire for sex Hi All, Somebody asked me this off-list, so I thought I would reply here (with extracts from Bhikkhu Bodhi). The Buddha was very explicit for monks. According to the Vinaya: Should any bhikkhu - participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness - engage in the sexual act, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in communion. In other words, if a monk has sex, he must disrobe and may not become a monk again. This is called a parajika offence. Intentional discharge of semen, except while dreaming, entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. In other words, if a monk masturbates, he must first admit it in front of the elder monks and then be "on probation" for a period after which he can be reinstated. While "under probation", the monk cannot give dhamma talks and must be accompanied by another monk when he leaves the monastery. This is a called a sanghadisesa offence. The Vinaya texts give many case studies of what does and what does not constitute an infraction of the rule. The Buddha did not lay down so many rules for laypeople. The basic set of rules for laypeople are the five precepts. The third precept is abstinence from sexual misconduct (Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami). The word "kama" means "sense pleasure" or "sensual desire", but the commentaries explain it as sexual relations. "Micchacara" means wrong modes of conduct. For men, the text lists twenty types of women who are illicit partners. These can be grouped into three categories: - A woman under the protection of elders or other authorities charged with her care (a girl being cared for by parents, by an older brother or sister, by other relatives) - A woman who is prohibited by convention (nuns and other women vowed to observe celibacy as a spiritual discipline and those forbidden as partners under the law of the land) - A woman who is married or engaged to another man, even one bound to another man only by a temporary agreement In the case of women, for those who are married any man other than a husband is an illicit partner. A man forbidden by tradition or under religious rules is prohibited as a partner. For both men and women, any violent, forced or coercive union, whether by physical compulsion or psychological pressure, can be regarded as a transgression of the precept even when the partner is not otherwise illicit. A man or woman who is widowed or divorced can freely remarry according to choice. Required factors to constitute a violation of the precept: - An illicit partner as described above - Thought, intention or volition of engaging in sexual misconduct - Appropriate effort (act of engaging in union... I guess that Bill Clinton did not technically break this precept with Monica Lewinski) - The acceptance of the union (a rape victim has not violated the precept, but the rapist has) The degree of moral gravity involved in the offense is determined by the force of the lust motivating the action and the qualities of the person against whom the transgression is committed. The most serious violations are incest and the rape of an Arahant (or Arahatess). The underlying root is always greed. Beyond the five precepts, Buddhism offers a higher code of moral discipline for the laity consisting of eight precepts (Atthasila). This code of eight precepts is not entirely different in content from the fivefold code, but includes the five precepts with a significant revision in the third precept, where abstaining from sexual misconduct is changed to abstaining from incelibacy. The third precept of the eightfold set thus reads: Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from incelibacy." To these basic five three further precepts are added: - Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from eating beyond the time limit," i.e., from mid-day to the following dawn. - Nacca gita vadita visukhadassana-mala gandha vilepana dharanamandana vibhusanatthana veramani sikkhapadam samamadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from dancing, singing, instrumental music, unsuitable shows, and from wearing garlands, using scents, and beautifying the body with cosmetics." - Uccasayana mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from high and luxurious beds and seats." Permanent observance of the eight precepts is sometimes undertaken by older people who, having completed their family duties, wish to deepen their spiritual development by devoting the later years of their life to intensified spiritual practice. Temporary observance is usually undertaken by lay people either on Uposatha days or on occasions of a meditation retreat. Uposatha days are the new moon and full moon days of the lunar month, which are set aside for special religious observances, a going back even into the pre-Buddhistic period of Indian history. On these days lay people in Buddhist countries often take the eight precepts, especially when they go to spend the Uposatha at a temple or monastery. On these occasions the undertaking of the eight precepts lasts for a day and a night. On occasions of retreat, lay people take the eight precepts for the duration of their retreat. The five precepts and the eight precepts have a different focus. The focus of the five precepts is to put a brake on immoral actions (actions that are directly or indirectly harmful to others) and the associated kammic results. The focus of the eight precepts is more spiritual than ethical. The eight precepts act as a basis for achieving higher states of realization through the practice of meditation. The eight precepts represent the transition from sila as a purely moral undertaking to sila as a way of ascetic self-training aimed at progress along the path to liberation. With the eight precepts, the ethical code takes a pronounced turn towards the control of desires which are not socially harmful and immoral. This extension of the training focuses upon desires centering around the physical body and its concerns. The change of the third precept to abstinence from incelibacy curbs the sexual urge, regarded in itself not as a moral evil but as a powerful expression of craving that has to be held in check to advance to the higher levels of meditation. The three new precepts regulate concern with food, entertainment, self- beautification and physical comfort. Their observance nurtures the growth of qualities essential to the deeper spiritual life -- contentment, fewness of wishes, modesty, austerity, renunciation. As these qualities mature the defilements are weakened, aiding the attainment of insight. To my knowledge, there are no references in the texts to masturbation for laypeople. My guess is that it would not be breaking any of the five precepts but should be avoided by those undertaking the eight precepts. Metta, Rob M :-) 24629 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: desire for sex hi Elias, Elias wrote: > Physical sex for desire is triggered by desluion, ignorance, > abd an unstable mind. and leads into a physical chemical reaction. > sexual desire is triggered > actually with ignorance and delusion. and un unminfullness mind. > if the midn is mindfull and wise, no chance sex can hit your mind > and change it's pattern. But is it not the case that the feeling/chemical reaction comes before the thought ? When I was a very young kid going into puberty, I remember having "feelings" 'down there' without really thinking of or visualizing a human, naked human, vagina or anything else. And so, if this feeling arises independent of thought, before any thoughts regarding it, how is one to "sneak out, to restrain yourself from doing it" ? ... not that I have a problem with masturbation ... man, this is embarrassing. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > hello nori, > be not embarassed, in daily wordly life, > people are embarrassed of thigns related to sex because, > they have made em to something they are not. > > If your mind is stable you canr eflect over sex, > if it's not stable, it's a chance you will see in delusion. > > Ex, let's reflect over anal sex, > if we experience to go to the toilet and 'do a poo', snip ... 24630 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: desire for sex Hello Nori,Elias and all, I also wonder about this ... I have the need to breathe before I think of oxygen, I feel hungry before I think of food, I feel thirsty before I think of water, I feel tired before I think of sleep. Why are sexual feelings any different? I think they are a basic inbuilt requirement of the genes to ensure their reproduction and continuity - they need the organism to be involved in breathing, eating, drinking and sleeping. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" 24631 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, Thanks so much for writing - I've been meaning to respond but got distracted on other threads.... --- Sukinderpal wrote: > I understand that it is in the nature of language itself, and I am not > talking about how > others handle this. I am more concerned about how it influences my own > attempt to > understand Buddha's teachings. The thing is, I am wondering if I am > being limited > by terms such as anatta, anicca etc.,.... ..... Just a little more on this. I think it is helpful to reflect about whether we use these terms out of convenience or whether there is really any understanding of them. For this, I find it very helpful to be questioned and challenged as we are here by those who may use the same terms but with a very different understanding. Sometimes we may use terminology as a kind of shorthand to communicate together, but if we’re speaking to someone from another background or orientation, it’s far more helpful to try to find the words that make sense to them. In the end, though, however the truths are expressed, there will be limits to what we and others can appreciate. For some, the wish for all religions or philosophies to point to the same goal is so strong that at a certain point it’s hard to really accept the Buddha’s teachings. Also, I think that if one really wishes to understanding the truths, it’s impossible to avoid some basic terminology such as nama and rupa because the sense from English translations tends to just confuse rather than clarify. Some other teachers do a wonderful job of using simple language and avoiding all Buddhist/Pali terminology. But at a certain point I find it’s limited, especially when it comes to clarifying precisely the nature of the phenomena to be known and the depth necessary for an understanding of anatta. ..... >This is why I asked Sarah about her own > experience > knowing that she is quite beyond this obstacle (if indeed it is), and > wanted to find out > if the teachings themselves had a way to self-check any such > limitations. Anyway, > now I think this is all a result of confusion, too much thinking :-). .... No ‘Sarah’ to be ‘beyond’ anything, remember...;-) I think the ‘self-check’ is in the development of panna. So as you say, even at these moments of wondering and thinking, there can be awareness of the confusion or thinking and that momentary awareness and any understanding with it is more useful than any particular conclusion that might be reached. It always comes back to now and the reality at this moment, however much the thinking may think otherwise;-) .... The true dhamma > as heard > here on dsg, is not so much Buddhist concepts, but the reminder about > what is real, > that can be known directly. Besides one is asked again and again to not > mistake > concept for reality. So anatta, anicca, dukkha are not just ideas to use > as convenient, > but to be insighted. Before that happens, we will still "think" these > concepts with the > limited understanding that we have, but the best reminder is that even > such thinking > is 'conditioned'. .... You express it all very well and I’ve (reluctantly) snipped your other wise comments too, Sukin. .... > I am in the right place, and I think I should write more often ;-). > There are so many > people here who can help me to straighten my views. Thank you Nina, > Sarah, Mike > and everyone else, for the excellent dhamma you share here. It is indeed > a blessing > to be a member of dsg and to know personally many of you. :-) .... I’m sure we all feel the same about your writing and the assistance you give us too. We all need lots of reminders and lots of straightening out from as many sources as possible;-) Many thanks for your kind comments... it’s a blessing to have friends like yourself and we’re always glad when we see your name appear. What have you been discussing or raising in your Sat afternoon sessions with Khun Sujin recently? How does the dhamma help you with family and business difficulties and uncertainties, Sukin? Keen to hear more from you with some daily life examples and I know Nina would like this too;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24632 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Htoo and Nina, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! > > Dhamma has its own characteristics. It is its own nature. Nature is > nature. Nature governs by its own laws. When these laws can be > realized, everything can be realized. .... Htoo, I'm so glad to see you're still following and appreciating these posts. I'm sure if you have any answers to the questions on the Vism thread or if you can give any input of the Pali anytime by way of clarification, we'd all be glad to hear from you. Nina, I think 'distinct nature' as you gave for a translation of sabhava is very apt. 'Individual essence' tends to give people an idea of self as often discussed here. Metta, Sarah ====== 24633 From: Elias Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: desire for sex hello, all well, if you try to abstain from sex and generate wisdom, what the human body is etc. anatta.ex a feeling of 'going beyond the existend' will arise. i'm a real hurry now, i've to go, i'm in school. i will try to answer later. /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori,Elias and all, > > I also wonder about this ... I have the need to breathe before I > think of oxygen, I feel hungry before I think of food, I feel thirsty > before I think of water, I feel tired before I think of sleep. Why > are sexual feelings any different? I think they are a basic inbuilt > requirement of the genes to ensure their reproduction and continuity - > they need the organism to be involved in breathing, eating, > drinking and sleeping. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" 24634 From: Elias Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: desire for sex hello, what you mention might be the 'grow up' of the body. as you might have noticed you do nto feel sexual attraction from exanimals. because you're a human. I think ther emay acctually be human beings who have in a way made the mind find attraction in animals. anyway, that's not eh subject. well there have been many experiments. ex i've heard from a monk, who used to work with science before he become a monk. he told that there were several persons, for tests. each person got the instruments put on there heads, ex so the researcher could see the brain stumals ex. so then the people that did the test would the verius things, ex lift a spoon. what the experiment showed, that first there were a signal in the brain, then the person did choose to pick up the spoon. so it were triggered before the person did have the intention to do it. this shows ways of anatta. we are born in a world of desire, if there were no womans, men would probably still use a way fo selfsex (masturbating) for pleasure. If a parent ex find their childs to have selfsex, the parents might get confused and very angry, and tell the children to not do it again. but it's not soeasy, because the desire is very strong for pleasure. it's not to say "i wills top do it". it will not stop it. but it's a start. a decision. i've to go now /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi Elias, > But is it not the case that the feeling/chemical reaction comes > before the thought ? > > When I was a very young kid going into puberty, I remember > having "feelings" 'down there' without really thinking of or > visualizing a human, naked human, vagina or anything else. > > And so, if this feeling arises independent of thought, before any > thoughts regarding it, how is one to "sneak out, to restrain yourself > from doing it" ? > 24635 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Rob! Rob: "Please send your snail mail address to my email > address and let me > know what kind of music / chanting you would like." ------------------------------------------------------ I am interested! Have you got the Guhyasamaja Tantra, chanted by The Tibetan Gyuto Monks ? What devotional buddistics CDs have you to share ? I am interested also in the Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" > > wrote: > > Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd > burner, but I would > be > > more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I > listed for > > Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional > chants, or > whatever > > you could make time for. It would be much > appreciated as I can > only > > locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24636 From: nichiconn Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: bathtub musings Dear Christine, After everyone else had gone to bed tonight, (was it my guitar playing?) I picked up ADL and opened it to the story of the lute where the men say "That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind and the rajah says, "A poor thing is what you call a lute, a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray." May be chanting/singing is like that. Still, I was thinking earlier tonight that I'd like to listen to the Metta again when I get home. I like it when I recognize words without reading them. I think with the singing-chanting, there may be a lot of wrapping self in voice or making how something is said more important than the meaning? Dancing dhamma? peace, connie 24637 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi Nori: Nori:" I could tell you why Buddhism has no songs or hymns. > > The Buddha was quite against music." ---------------------------------------------------- That sounds strange, since many Suttas on Theravada are at verse, with musical metres too - I can recommend Winkner´s studies on Sanskrit and about Sandhi: the fine art to aggregate words in a bigger one, changing some letters to raise euphonic effects! At Mahayana, all Suttas are chanted by monks. ----------------------------------------------------- > Digha Nikaya 11 > Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta > > "He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental > music, and from > watching shows." > ...also from monastic code (access to insight): ------------------------------------------------------ All these rules are for ones who attained Bhikkhu´s vows officialy - music and dancing can be viewed as a hindrance of Satipatthana... but at other side there´s no eternal truth in all questions - all is impermanence. The Mahamangala Sutta is usually chanted even by Theravada Bhikkhus! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24638 From: robmoult Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > I am interested! > Have you got the Guhyasamaja Tantra, chanted by The > Tibetan Gyuto Monks ? > What devotional buddistics CDs have you to share ? > I am interested also in the Prajnaparamita Hridaya > Sutra. Oops, you are a few hours late. I went to the bookstore at lunch time and it is now dinner. I picked up a Metta Sutta CD (one of my favourites) for Christine and one for Jeff. Tomorrow I am flying to Singapore and then to HK next week. I am not sure when I will be able to get back to the bookstore to check if they have the titles that you are looking for. Though this bookstore tends to specialize in Theravada, there are some Vajarana and Mahayana CDs / tapes as well. I will let you know. Metta, Rob M :-) 24639 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma dating. Dear Nina: Nina: " There are many posts on the subject of the dating of > the Abhidhamma. > I shall repost part of what Sarah wrote: see below." -------------------------------------------------- I am looking forward the Xmas´gift of Robmoult!!! So I will put some Niyaama on my notes and bookmarks! ----------------------------------------------------- Nina: "You will have your hands full. I quote these > passages because I find that > there are many misunderstandings about the dating of > the Abhidhamma. This > subject comes up all the time, as you will see." ------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina,at the present moment I am with hands full only with gym weights, bars, halters... preparing myself spiritually to the Boot Camp. All my class will meet the instructors September 10 to fit the last detalis! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24640 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Rob! Rob:" Oops, you are a few hours late. I went to the > bookstore at lunch > time and it is now dinner. I picked up a Metta Sutta > CD (one of my > favourites) for Christine and one for Jeff. Tomorrow > I am flying to > Singapore and then to HK next week. I am not sure > when I will be > able to get back to the bookstore to check if they > have the titles > that you are looking for. Though this bookstore > tends to specialize > in Theravada, there are some Vajarana and Mahayana > CDs / tapes as > well. I will let you know." ----------------------------------------------- GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You see, Sarah... Santa Claus exists!!! He´s called Robmoult !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am looking forward your info about Cds, Rob !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Mettaya ( Mettaya...mettaya...mettaya...), Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24641 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry & Nina, Sorry to be quiet on this thread.... it’s a lot trickier than I imagined;-) This is an example: ~Nanamoli, Vism VIII, n. 68: The individual essence of any formed dhammais manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, arising, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. “XXIII n.18: The subtleties of the word "nipphanna" are best cleared up by quoting a paragraph from the Sammohavinodani (VbhA.29) ***** Larry’s questions: L: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned." Why only "some concepts"? ***** S: I’ve read the Vism note carefully, checked the Sammohavinodani and so on and I can only say ‘very good question’ and I think it must be a mistake. All concepts are asabhaava and some realities such as space. Time is a concept as I understand. L: 3. If carriages and persons are perceived to be impermanent then why are they not sabhaava-dhammas? S: Because, to quote back from n18: “ A dhamma that is an individual essence with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three characteristics, is "positively produced". But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name ....” In other words, carriages and persons are not marked by the ri-lakkhana, are not conditioned, are not marked by the phases of arising, existing and ceasing and have no sabhaava. They are ‘produced’ or conceived by thinking only. ***** --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: Positively produced etc. I have doubts about this translation, I would have to know the Pali. All these notes are very complicated. I read in Vis. XXIII, 52: it is not sabhaava. And not classifiable as conditioned or unconditioned, mundane or supramundane.< .... S: Very difficult as you say. That’s why I’m not able to make much of a contribution. Let me try to understand this: Smv 127 “ Also the five aggregates are projected (parinipphana) only, not unprojected; they are formed (sa’nkhata) only, not unformed; moreover they are produced (nipphanna) too. For among the states that have individual essence (sabhaavadhamma) nibbaana alone is unprojected and unproduced. But how about the attainment of cessation (nirodhasamaapatti) and the concept of a name (naamapa~n~natti)? the attainment of cessation is not to be called ‘mundane or supramundane’ or ‘formed or unformed’ or ‘projected or unprojected’, but it is produced because it is to be attained by one who attains it. Likewise the concept of a name: for that also is not classed as ‘mundane’ etc, but it is produced, not unproduced; for it is only by taking that one takes a name.” ***** To summarise: parinipphanna (projected or directly knowable ) = only conditioned paramattha dhammas nipphanna (produced or experienced ) = paramattha dhammas and concepts and nirodhasamaapatti* NB nibbana is not parinipphanna or nipphanna. * see quote ***** I think I understand a little more. Larry, keep up your good work - you’re doing a great job. I was very relieved to find your break was only because you were talking to yourself for a couple of days;-) Nina, with great appreciation and please let me know if I confuse further with any errors. Metta, Sarah ====== 24642 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/26/03 10:55:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You were saying: > --------------- > > Generally speaking, I accept with little > >questioning, but with constant consideration for > >purposes of understanding, what appears to have come > >directly from the Buddha. I truly do not know whether > >this includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, > > > . . . . > > > > At this point, I have to depend on synopses, > > >commentaries (mostly reports of commentaries), and > >characterizations, some of which material rings true to > >me and some of which, from my observation, contradicts > >basic teachings given in the Sutta Pitaka. > ------------- > > Which contradictions do you have in mind? The > controversial areas that I'm aware of seem to involve > personal preferences rather than contradictions. For > example, I would prefer that the suttas didn't acquiesce > in slavery and the subordination of women. Furthermore, I > don't like the assumption that gods and demons play a > role in the human world (influencing the weather, for > example). Nor am I entirely happy about the heart being > the organ of the mind (as asserted in the commentaries). > > But these things are no impediment when considered in > light of the whole Tipitaka. For example, we read that a > dutiful wife treats her parents-in-law as if they were > gods. We might have trouble with that outmoded notion but > we have also been taught that living beings and cultural > practices are not real, they are conventional > designations. So we understand the example as a > conventional explanation of kusala citta with metta. And > there is no problem. > > I think we should learn what is in the texts. Once we > start to strike out troublesome parts, we are on a long > and slippery slope: we have begun to rewrite the whole > Theravada tradition. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There have been things I've come across from time to time that seem to be at least "additions" - the notions of bhavanga cittas and the very momentariness of cittas are concepts that don't occur in the sutta pitaka, and there are others that I haven't committed to memory - but what I had in mind here was quite specifically the notion of pa~n~natti as unconditioned and permanent. That is objectionable and contrary to the Dhamma. There is but one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, and all other dhammas are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfying, and not-self. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------- > >But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my meaning > >of that word, then concepts are conditioned mind-door > >objects, and are not special except for their > >usefulness and their perils. > --------------- > > But which conditioned object could they be? Vitakka? Vicara? > Unlikely; I don't see how a thought could be the same as > "thought conception" or "discursive thinking." That would > be like saying that a cake is the same as 'mixing' or 'baking.' > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thoughts are thoughts - particular kinds of mind-door objects. Some affective mind-door objects are feelings, urges, emotions,etc, whereas concept-thoughts are cognitive instead of affective. When I "see" my coffee cup in front of me, part of what is going on is the (culminating) wordless recognition of the mental object or percept we call "a coffee cup". That mind-object is the object of an act of mano-vi~n~ana; it is an object that not only appears through the mind-door, being grasped by a mind-door citta, but it is also mind-constructed, the culmination of a complex sankharic process. The coffee-cup percept exists *only* as a mind-door object, the alleged coffee cup "out there" being imagined/presupposed/presumed, but never observed. Ultimately it is false (better: meaningless) to say the coffee cup arises, changes, and ceases, and it is also meaningless to say that it does not, because there IS NO coffee cup at all except conventionally, in a manner of speaking but not actually. Perhaps it is nonexistent entities such as that "coffee cup" that you have in mind when you say "concept/pa~n~natti". If so, then we are not basically at odds on the issue. There simply are no pa~n~natti at all in this case. We may speak as if there are, but that is mere facon de parler. --------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > > I do not believe that what a microbe or a > >hungry ghost will find pleasant/unpleasant is the same > >as what a human finds pleasant/unpleasant. > ------------------- > > What I was referring to was not what is 'found to be' > pleasant, but what 'is' pleasant. The objects of kusala > vipaka-citta and akusala vipaka-citta are inherently > pleasant and unpleasant respectively. As properties of > sense objects, 'pleasant' and 'unpleasant' are absolute: > they are not influenced by how those sense objects are > perceived. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken I don't disagree with that. Pleasantness presumably is pleasantness - period. But that is *not* what we were discussing. We were discussing exactly whether or not pleasantness resides intrinsically in the experienced object. My answer about microbes and hungry ghosts was in response to your having written the following: > If, [to dredge up another example], they say > that rupa arammana are inherently pleasant or unpleasant > then, again, why be inclined to think otherwise? What I wrote elsewhere in this regard is that what is pus to us may be nectar to other creatures. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > >If I'm incorrect, so what? This issue is a very > >small one, of little import > -------------- > > I think the important thing is that we ascertain what is > in the Tipitaka. Only then, can it be proved or disproved > by experience. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, we do need to ascertain what is in the Tipitaka. ------------------------------------------------ > > --------- > > > . . . > > > >As far as commentaries are concerned, well, they > >are there to be perused, considered, and appreciated, > >but not to be put at the same level as the word of the > >Buddha. > ------------ > > They are what the Theras believed to be the meaning of > the word of the Buddha. Maybe they are not to be put on > the same level as the actual word. Even so, they deserve > a much higher level than any contrary opinions held by > us, don't you agree? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do believe that they are to be accorded enormous respect, deserving of careful analysis. I do not believe they should ever serve as carte blanche substitutes for our own minds. The Buddha said the same even with regard to his OWN teachings. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24643 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Icaro, --- icaro franca wrote: > Hi Sarah ! > > --- Sarah " Let me add my bit too.... > > > “In essence (...)Patthana is the > > teaching of anatta.” > --------------------------------------------------- > > Up the Irons! > Exact! ..... ;-) ..... > But all this can be a very pretty effott to > translate... I am only at the beginninng of the > Paccayas´description: I have got the opinion that such > detailed reasonings about anatta came forth after many > dialogs with Mahavir´s disciples, that preached the > existence of Self with strong arguments! .... Not only Mahavir’s disciples but all of us do so without the Buddha’s teachings. Of course, sometimes we may not realise the extent to which we are still clinging to the idea of self. Imho. TG expressed it very well here: ***** TG “Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. If dominos are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling into each other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the domino that hits it and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind of control. The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The notion of control is not supportable by an argument about influence. To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute control" as akin to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute self. Both ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" idea is more subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion of control has to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither exist...i.e., self or control.” ***** > Put buddhism in a nutshell is not so simple as it > seems! > Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was > written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. .... Nina has fortunately addressed this point;-) ;-) See ‘Abhidhamma: its origins’ in UP for more: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... > It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a > text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, > meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering > too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha > preaching. > The Dhammasangani and the huge Patthana are magnus > opus of all humanity!!!!! .... I think you’re going to single-handedly ensure the sasana lasts an extra millenium or two, Icaro;-) .... > I will do it. Fortunately I´ve download ALL the > Pali Tipitaka of www.tipitaka.org... and source texts > will be always available! I will try also burn a CD > with that material...but it belongs to the future! .... I’m sure that when you and RobM do your CD burning together, miraculously out of the ashes will come a version that Nina and I can read with a simple click;-) .... > That´s fine, Sarah. No problem! > (Trimming as good as possible, Sarah!) ..... Thx for announcing to all that there are no Patthana Pets on DSG when it comes to the cracking of the whip as far as trimming is concerned;-) Ok, I’ll test out a new signature which you may like to adopt for a change, Icaro;-) Metta, Sarah Seize the time to trim, Spare the Mods a spin, Win, Win, Win, Muito Obrigado =============== 24644 From: robmoult Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > I am looking forward your info about Cds, Rob Silly me. I forgot about this innovative new technology called "telephone" that allows me to check what is available without visting the bookstore. As it turns out, the store does have the Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra (in Sanskrit, of course) but it does not have much Tibetan stuff. Do you want a CD or cassette? Metta, Rob M:-) 24645 From: Elias Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:12am Subject: Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori,Elias and all, > > I also wonder about this ... I have the need to breathe before I > think of oxygen, I feel hungry before I think of food, I feel thirsty > before I think of water, I feel tired before I think of sleep. Why > are sexual feelings any different? I think they are a basic inbuilt > requirement of the genes to ensure their reproduction and continuity - > they need the organism to be involved in breathing, eating, > drinking and sleeping. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" Hello Christine, Nori, and all As for food, you can give it up. You may have the will-power to give up eating food, to penetrate and give up the desire for taste pleasure. Also for drinking, you can give up drinking when you feel thirsty, you can penantrate and give up the disre for thirst. If they were inbuilt and if you were the human being, there would probably not be a way that acctually can give up these 'inbuilt' things. You would think whatever happens the eating, drinking, and sexwould be so much important because they make you live and make other human body into nature. As for breath it happens automaticly, but we are not often aware of it, acctually almost never aware of it, untill we begin to meditate. When thoughs about to give up sex arise it's aversion in the mind, it seems not good, not necesery etc. because it's such a pleasure. Even thoughs about to give up nibbana, also may aversion arise, because we have so much desire for it. I did not mean to change subject to 'desire for nibbana', but i will write some short about it, because it's very simply to describe. if you ex. goes to a park, to come to that park, you had to have desire, you have to had plans, what way to go etc, you might have going on a certain time, etc. when you are in the park, there's no desire to be in the park anymore. We are very 'human' aren't we, we mostly find that ourself are most important, that eating and drinking is very important, and that sex is the highest pleasure, therefore we strive for it, it's like a trigger inside human beings, what if sex did not be pleasure, there would probably not be any human beings born. The human is very egoistic, babies are born because egoism, desire. partners are picked by desire, egoism. mostly everythign we do is because egoism and/or desire. We need to not follow the stream, to stand up in the river and say 'hey, what if i were to swim in the other direction?'. When we do practice the path, we will definitely feel feelings as 'ouside the human realm, as going behind/beyond the existence'. and this would probably not be possible if we were the human being. please ad comments or if I say something that seems absolutly incorrect, please tell my. All i can tell is some small experiences, and mostly theories based on these experiences. /Elias 24646 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Great Robmoult !!!!! robmoult "As it turns out, the store does have the > Prajnaparamita Hridaya > Sutra (in Sanskrit, of course) but it does not have > much Tibetan > stuff. > > Do you want a CD or cassette? ----------------------------------------------------- Both! You can put in the packet a bunch of Theravada Suttas as the Mahamangala, chanted by legitimate Theravada Bhikkhus. How many Cds/cassetes will be ? If you manage to alocate everything in one single Cd or cassette tape, the best! International postage has some fees and etc: any further expenses with such naiveté of mine you can put on my account. Since my boot camp and military training will last next January, could you send me this gracious gift of yours at February ? Rob, I´ve got some material here: - A CD of the Tibetan Monks of Gaden Sharste, - The Mantra of 21 Taras, - a CD of Sanskrit Classical Mantras, chanted by disciples of my Yoga Master, Mr.De Rose. If you are interested, express yourself!!! With Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24647 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Lt. Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:41 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > All these rules are for ones who attained Bhikkhu´s > vows officialy - music and dancing can be viewed as a > hindrance of Satipatthana... No, really?! To jhaana, surely, but satipa.t.thaana?! Ready for boot camp, Sir? mike 24648 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sarah (and Sukin), ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 1:48 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** >> The thing is, I am wondering if I am > > being limited > > by terms such as anatta, anicca etc.,.... > ..... > Just a little more on this. I think it is helpful to reflect about whether > we use these terms out of convenience or whether there is really any > understanding of them. For this, I find it very helpful to be questioned > and challenged as we are here by those who may use the same terms but with > a very different understanding. Sometimes we may use terminology as a kind > of shorthand to communicate together, but if we're speaking to someone > from another background or orientation, it's far more helpful to try to > find the words that make sense to them. Even the paali words have different meanings in different contexts and at different levels of understanding, I think(?) As we were discussing 'asubha' recently, I came to the conclusion that the asubha that arises and subsides instantaneously with pa~n~naa is very different from the conventional meaning of 'disgust'. So it seems to me that paali vohaara-vacana (conventional expression) is far more specific than English and that paali paramattha-vacana (ultimate expression) is far more specific than paali vohaara-vacana. So a continual refining or focussing, I think. As Sarah says, though, it depends on the hearer which is more useful. > In the end, though, however the truths are expressed, there will be limits > to what we and others can appreciate. For some, the wish for all religions > or philosophies to point to the same goal is so strong that at a certain > point it's hard to really accept the Buddha's teachings. I agree, Sarah, and it seems to me that this view depends on generalities and equivocation--it doesn't stand up to detailed analysis. I think this accounts for a lot of hostility toward the abhidhamma (and often even paali study). > Also, I think > that if one really wishes to understanding the truths, it's impossible to > avoid some basic terminology such as nama and rupa because the sense from > English translations tends to just confuse rather than clarify. Yes, and often for the same reasons as above, I think--easier to fit 'name and form', e.g., into a very vague and generalized view than to understand how unique the real meanings are to Buddhahamma. Enough fuzzy thinking, Mike. mike 24649 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:08am Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Jim, Sara, Christine, and all How are you? The Pali term that occurred to me when I first read Jim's plans to go off-line and hibernate was nikkhama paaramiitaa undertaken without ordination for a short period of time. Jim's plans sound to me physical distancing from usual busy engagements. Even though nikkhama paaramiitaa is best fulfilled as an ordained bhikkhu or as a ten-precept Theravada nun or as a Mahayana bhikkhuni (like in the case of a controversial Thai female professor did with the help of Taiwanese Mahayana bhikkhunis), lay people like us can also fulfil it in many forms if in limited capacities. All forms of nikkhama are designed to free ourselves from the usual obligations of social, societal and interpersonal engagements. Ironically, the question an aspirant nikkhama seeker needs to ask oneself is how to fund this luxury of disengagement in a western acquisitive materialistic society like Australia. It appears that only rich people can afford nikkhama paaramiitaa, the luxury of disengagement, - the societal disengagement in particular. Everyone in a western society like Australia is conditioned to fulfil the obligations of societal engagements to live. Societal disengagement means beginning with deprivation of livelihood leading to unprotected homelessness and untimely ending with death - yes, in the rich First World. Thus, unless you have already amassed funds for living expenses to last for the rest of your life, nikkhama paaramiitaa at the level of complete societal disengagement cannot be fulfilled. The good news is, though, that nikkhama paaramiitaa at the levels of social and interpersonal disengagement can be fulfilled if the aspirant nikkhama seeker has been practicing mental cultivation with samatha and vipassanaa to an infallible stage. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 24650 From: christhedis Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Thanks Howard, I don't think I was assuming that the Mahasi technique directly equals Mindfulness, just that this technique seems to me to obviously explicitly cultivate Mindfulness, in that the meditator is aware of rising, falling, sitting, walking, intending to turn, etc. etc. In contrast, the Goenka technique of examining bodily sensations doesn't (as far as I can see) explicitly cultivate Mindfulness. But what you are saying is that the Goenka method will also lead to Mindfulness, just in its own way? Do any others in this group use the Goenka technique? Is it generally recognized as an established and effective technique? I get the impression that more people use the Mahasi technique. Thanks a lot... Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > You seem to be assuming that the Mahasi labeling technique = > mindfulness. If so, I think you are mistaken. Mindfulness is a mental concomitant, > which arises during many mindstates, and is not peculiar to the Mahasi meditation > style. Mindfulnes is "simply" the mental operation of not getting mentally > lost, but rather of attending directly (not conceptually) to whatever arises at > the moment. It fosters and is fostered by concentration, and it works > hand-in-glove with so-called clear comprehension. The Goenka meditation on bodily > sensations is a "mindfulness practice". > > With metta, > Howard > 24651 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:23am Subject: Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Hi All, In a discussion on one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, Nina was saying that some texts seem to suggest that clinging to [re]birth always arises with wrong view while elsewhere it's written that the sotaapanna can cling to jhaana and the result of jhaana. KS replied that there are two aspects of bhava-ta.nhaa, with sassata-di.t.thi and without sassata-di.t.thi. Could it be that the result of jhaana clung to by the sotaapanna is not rebirth but something else (e.g. a pleasant abiding here and now)? The sotaapanna, after all, can be quite attached to pleasant feeling. I'd also like to hear more about sassata-di.t.thi. In conventional speech I think this is usually taken just to refer to the eternalist view. In the context of abhidhamma, does this also refer to the view that anything lasts at all (beyond one kha.na)? We talk often about sakkaya-di.t.thi, but not often about sassata-di.t.thi (it took me a while even to figure out what KS was saying). A big jump, I think, between 'nothing lasts forever' and 'nothing lasts at all'--a big refinement, I think. Corrections? mike 24652 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Sarah, "Hey, Gayan, since when did a heartfelt pleading become an order;-) Just sometimes when members ask me to send metta to all other members, I suggest they might do it themselves;-)" Metta by proxy :o) "Gayan, I'm not quite sure what the 'break-even' is. Is it to perform more kusala than akusala kamma in a day or is it to reach the first stage of enlightenment? Glad for any enlightening..." oh, what I had in mind was.. since the faculties are unguarded lot of akusala kammas are happening, for example if I see a very salivating KFC advertisement in TV thats desire for taste right there happening in the mind... When I see the trailer for the movie 'seabiscuit', the instant desire arises there..all akusala (unskillfull) although they are not paapa (sin) so to break even , more kusala needed, so need to utilise all the skill one has. Applying metta, giving a right-out-of-the-pocket donation to a beggar etc.. although theres no way of measuring, I guess most of us people will have similar accumulations of kusala and akusala dusring a day. "I know you're not in Sri Lanka now, but I thought you (or maybe Sumane) might have an idea of anywhere Jim could contact there to help track down the old Pali grammars. If so, maybe you could let me or him know." Pardon my ignorance for not being very sure about what you/Jim are looking for, please see whether this link is helpful http://www.beyondthenet.net/bps/bps_main.htm its the buddhist publication society. also if you can inquire from ven mettavihari (metta@m... ) ( a danish monk living in sri lanka) it would be helpful. regards, gayan 24653 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/27/03 10:13:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charnett@y... writes: > > Thanks Howard, > > I don't think I was assuming that the Mahasi technique directly equals > Mindfulness, just that this technique seems to me to obviously explicitly > cultivate Mindfulness, in that the meditator is aware of rising, falling, > sitting, walking, intending to turn, etc. etc. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: In my opinion, the Mahasi technique actually introduces conceptualization! The procedure of labeling, if not done just occasionally at early stages, is something I consider to be counterproductive with regard to cultivating mindfulness. But there is disagreement on that issue form various quarters. ---------------------------------------------------- In contrast, the Goenka > > technique of examining bodily sensations doesn't (as far as I can see) > explicitly cultivate Mindfulness. But what you are saying is that the > Goenka method will also lead to Mindfulness, just in its own way? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Any technique that nonjudgementally and nonreactively attends to whatever arises at the moment will cultivate mindfulness. In my opinion, the only limitation there is in the Goenka technique as a method of vipassana bhavana is that it is restricted to attending to bodily sensations. The Goenka people, however, say that other dhammas that arise will also be noticed and that, anyway, they are all reflected in bodily sensation. That is the claim. I cannot judge the validity of it. What I *can* tell you from first-hand experience is that the Goenka technique has been extremely beneficial to me. ------------------------------------------------ > > Do any others in this group use the Goenka technique? Is it generally > recognized as an established and effective technique? I get the > impression that more people use the Mahasi technique. > > Thanks a lot... > > Chris ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24654 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: " Lt. Icaro," ------------------------------------------------ Geeeez...!!! Modestus! Mike... modeste! --------------------------------------------- No, really?! To jhaana, surely, but > satipa.t.thaana?! ---------------------------------------------------- Yeah, Mike!!! As brazillians usually say: " A rapadura é doce...mas não é mole não!!!" -------------------------------------------------- Mike: "Ready for boot camp, Sir?" ----------------------------------------------- What such a paranoia of mine , Mike! I am standing up every day at 5 a.m. to make jogging and exercises... I hope, with this previous training, to make an average stand at boot camp without being a burden to my comrades! I am a perfectionist! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24655 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hello Airman Ic, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > --------------------------------------------- > No, really?! To jhaana, surely, but > > satipa.t.thaana?! > ---------------------------------------------------- > Yeah, Mike!!! > As brazillians usually say: " A rapadura é > doce...mas não é mole não!!!" Translation, please! Afraid I've mislaid my Portuguese dictionary... Thanks! mike 24656 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: " Translation, please! Afraid I've mislaid my > Portuguese dictionary..." ----------------------------------------------------- HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Rapadura" is a brazillian candy that is made with the brute sugar that comes immediately after the first refining of the sugar cane... it´s very, very hard to munch. Here in Brazil, at Northeast Region, it is selled at country fairs on blocks at the brick´s size... A loose translation - that doesn´t keep all the funny rhythm of the original: "Rapadura is sweet... but hard to eat" Bon appétit !!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24657 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Larry, op 27-08-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could we say, for example, the understanding by an insight knowledge of > the specific characteristic of hardness is understanding hardness as > impermanent, suffering, or not self? N: First the specific characteristics, visesa lakkhana, of nama and rupa are understood, by a beginning insight: the first two stages of tender insight (Vis. XX, 4). After that the penetration of the general charactertistics predominates. It makes sense. We know so little in the beginning: hardness is different from the experience of hardness. How could we begin with the understanding of arising and falling away if the specific characteristics are not clearly discerned? At the third stage of tender insight panna begins to realize arising and falling away, Comprehension by groups, as we discussed. After that there is the first stage of principal insight: the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. When we learn that a reality is just rupa, we begin to understand slightly that it is not self. I remember the late Ven. Dhammadharo saying: what is seen is rupa, not a thing, not a person. It is rupa, this means, not self. It is nama, this means, not self. Thus, a beginning understanding of phenomena as only nama and as only rupa is actually a beginning understanding of non-self, though it is still pariyatti, theoretical. Nina. 24658 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > "Rapadura" is a brazillian candy that is made with > the brute sugar that comes immediately after the first > refining of the sugar cane... it´s very, very hard to > munch. > Here in Brazil, at Northeast Region, it is selled > at country fairs on blocks at the brick´s size... > A loose translation - that doesn´t keep all the > funny rhythm of the original: > > "Rapadura is sweet... > but hard to eat" > > Bon appétit !!! Thanks man--but just to clarify, are you quite sure that 'music and dancing can be viewed as a hindrance of Satipatthana' (rather than of jhaana)? How so? Cannot sati take any dhamma as object, even sense-pleasures and so on? Thanks again in advance! mike 24659 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: " Thanks man--but just to clarify, are you quite sure > that 'music and dancing > can be viewed as a hindrance of Satipatthana' > (rather than of jhaana)? How > so? Cannot sati take any dhamma as object, even > sense-pleasures and so on?" ------------------------------------------------------- Mike, that´s only my opinion - Nina always remarks that I never read the Vinaya as frequently as I read the Dhammasangami... and she is right! "Satipatthana" may have the meaning of "vigilance" -an careful self-overview at all your activities: standing at foot, walking, working, etc, and sitting at padmasana, cultivating Samatha. Following the cold text, you won´t find at the prescribed standings of your life - on foot, walking, laying down on your right side, etc - the merry and joy of dance and singing. Jhaana, at other side, has an approach to human happiness - piti-sukhi Jhaana - but only at the first stages of practice. Nina states that perhaps only formal Bhikkhus can attain Satipatthana... and if I could understand well her words, she is really right at this matter. Sati can get kusala dhammas, of course. If you follow the Combinatoria Analisys of the Patthana, perhaps you may find a hetupaccayoti kusala kariya vipaka Dhamma, accomplished with sensual pleasure, that apports to satipatthana... but apparently only bhikkhus can attain it. ---------------------------------------------------- > Mike:" Thanks again in advance!" ---------------------------------------------------- Pas du tout, mon ami! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24660 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:12pm Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Hello Suan, I agree, for most Buddhist people in most western societies there is not the choice of dhamma study and practice while being supported practically and encouraged spiritually. So it becomes a lifestyle choice of those with an income stream which doesn't require daily attendance at a worldly job. This is not within the possibilities open to the ordinary person. Which is partly how the discussion arose elsewhere about alternative lifestyles that would allow women or men to devote their time (that scarce resource) to dhamma study and practice without needing to spend 12-15 hours a day attending to survival, travel and maintenance needs. The fostering of the Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sanghas in western countries, and the Bhikkhuni Sangha in all countries,is only in its infancy, and will be a growing resource. But,there are many who want a middle choice between wage-slavery and going forth. I couldn't find nikkhama in the dictionary - should it be spelled differently, or be part of a larger word? I know it is used in the sense of renunciation, but I have also seen it used as meaning 'performing tasks without hoping to obtain wealth, fame or privileges'. What do you mean by an 'infallible level'? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Jim, Sara, Christine, and all > > How are you? > > The Pali term that occurred to me when I first read Jim's plans to go > off-line and hibernate was nikkhama paaramiitaa undertaken without > ordination for a short period of time. > > Jim's plans sound to me physical distancing from usual busy > engagements. > > Even though nikkhama paaramiitaa is best fulfilled as an ordained > bhikkhu or as a ten-precept Theravada nun or as a Mahayana bhikkhuni > (like in the case of a controversial Thai female professor did with > the help of Taiwanese Mahayana bhikkhunis), lay people like us can > also fulfil it in many forms if in limited capacities. > > All forms of nikkhama are designed to free ourselves from the usual > obligations of social, societal and interpersonal engagements. > > Ironically, the question an aspirant nikkhama seeker needs to ask > oneself is how to fund this luxury of disengagement in a western > acquisitive materialistic society like Australia. It appears that > only rich people can afford nikkhama paaramiitaa, the luxury of > disengagement, - the societal disengagement in particular. > > Everyone in a western society like Australia is conditioned to fulfil > the obligations of societal engagements to live. Societal > disengagement means beginning with deprivation of livelihood leading > to unprotected homelessness and untimely ending with death - yes, in > the rich First World. > > Thus, unless you have already amassed funds for living expenses to > last for the rest of your life, nikkhama paaramiitaa at the level of > complete societal disengagement cannot be fulfilled. > > The good news is, though, that nikkhama paaramiitaa at the levels of > social and interpersonal disengagement can be fulfilled if the > aspirant nikkhama seeker has been practicing mental cultivation with > samatha and vipassanaa to an infallible stage. > > With regards, > > Suan 24661 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: bathtub musings Hello Connie, Thank you for mentioning this sutta which teaches against seeing anything graspable in any of the five aggregates. - it is also one of the few suttas where the Buddha actually mentions Bhikkhunis .. the first lines read "Bhikkhus, if in any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni desire or lust or hatred or delusion or aversion of mind should arise in regard to forms cognizable by the eye, such a one should rein in the mind from them thus; 'This path is fearful, dangerous, strewn with thorns, covered by jungle, a deviant path, an evil path, a way beset by scarcity. this is a path followed by inferior people; it is not the path followed by superior people. This is not for you.' In this way the mind should be reined in from these states regrding forms cognizable ny the eye. So too regarding sounds cognizable by the ear ... regarding mental phenomena cognizable by the mind." ========== Connie said: "I think with the singing-chanting, there may be a lot of wrapping self in voice or making how something is said more important than the meaning? Dancing dhamma? ========== What you say is true, though sometimes a meaning indefinable in words can be conveyed by the beautiful nuances of well trained voice, or the skills of a master musician. And sometimes the mood created by poetry and music can be calming and, perhaps, make one more amenable to reflection and considering the truths of existence. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nichiconn" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > After everyone else had gone to bed tonight, (was it my guitar > playing?) I picked up ADL and opened it to the story of the lute > where the men say "That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, > that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so > ravishing, of such power to bind and the rajah says, "A poor thing is > what you call a lute, a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein > the world is exceeding careless and led astray." May be > chanting/singing is like that. Still, I was thinking earlier tonight > that I'd like to listen to the Metta again when I get home. I like > it when I recognize words without reading them. I think with the > singing-chanting, there may be a lot of wrapping self in voice or > making how something is said more important than the meaning? > Dancing dhamma? > > peace, > connie 24662 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: L: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned." Why only "some concepts"? ***** S: I've read the Vism note carefully, checked the Sammohavinodani and so on and I can only say 'very good question' and I think it must be a mistake. All concepts are asabhaava and some realities such as space. Time is a concept as I understand. ---------------------------- Larry: The only thing I could think of is maybe this means that some dhammas without individual characteristics, such as the attainment of cessation and _some_ concepts such as space and time, can be objects of panna, which is here characterized as insight knowledge beginning with knowledge of rise and fall. Maybe we could start a file of questions for B. Bodhi starting with this one. Larry 24663 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 9 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 9. 1. Herein, the singlefold meaning is obvious in meaning. 2. As regards the twofold section, the "mundane" is that associated with the mundane path and the "supramundane" is that associated with the supramundane path. So it is of two kinds as mundane and supramundane. 24664 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 Vism. XIV, 9: "Herein, the singlefold meaning is obvious in meaning." L: This should read "the singlefold section is obvious in meaning". The singlefold kind of understanding is understanding as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states. Larry 24665 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Dear Sukin, op 27-08-2003 10:48 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > What have you been discussing or raising in your Sat afternoon sessions > with Khun Sujin recently? How does the dhamma help you with family and > business difficulties and uncertainties, Sukin? Keen to hear more from you > with some daily life examples and I know Nina would like this too;-) N: Yes, Yes, yes!!!!!!!! 24666 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan, op 26-08-2003 22:39 schreef Gayan Karunaratne op gkarunaratne@v...:> > its all self-self-self > > Pleasure is all mine to read all your posts. N: It should be two sided, if you have time it is great if you in your turn will also write, so that i can read your posts. As Sarah said today to Sukin: Isn't that a good one? Nina. 24667 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 27-08-2003 17:23 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Could it be that the result of jhaana clung to by the sotaapanna is not > rebirth but something else (e.g. a pleasant abiding here and now)? N: The vipaka produced by kusala jhaanacitta can only be in the form of rebirth. There is no other kind of vipaka. It is a happy rebirth, and can be object of clinging, also for the sotaapanna, why not? It is not necessaruly accompanied by wrong view. Sassata di.t.thi: see Buddhis dict: belief in a soul that is lasting, forever. But there are many degrees of ditthi. Sassata seems to me an extreme form. Nina. 24668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Icaro, I thought you would become very busy now. I just react here, because more people think of music as a hindrance or impediment. You will not be able to study much until february? It is hard training in a tropical climate. op 27-08-2003 11:41 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > music and dancing can be viewed as a > hindrance of Satipatthana.. N: No, nothing is a hindrance, except the tenth impediment, mentioned by Jon: supernormal powers. Anything that comes up naturally can be seen as nama and rupa, and more understanding of them can be developed. There is sound, that is real. Thinking of music, playing music, liking it, they are all paramattha dhammas. Nina. 24669 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:52pm Subject: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, We were talking about possible contradictions between the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas: ------------ > what I had in mind here was quite specifically the > notion of pa~n~natti as unconditioned and permanent. -------------- I'm sure there is no such notion in the Abhidhamma -- nor in any other Buddhist text. However, I (and one or two others), have said that sort of thing here on dsg. As a way of understanding the difference between what is real and what is illusion, I like to suggest that a coffee cup, for example, is permanent. After all, it was here on my desk this morning and it is still here now. The perception of this so-called 'permanence' can only be attributed to the insanity of the uninstructed worldling. Despite appearances, concepts do not last in any way but nor do they possess the characteristic, anicca -- because they are nothing at all. --------------- > That is objectionable and contrary to the Dhamma. There > is but one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, and all other > dhammas are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfying, and > not-self. ---------------- Fair enough. Saying, for the purposes of making a point, that concepts are permanent, pleasurable and self is at best, unnecessary and at worst, counterproductive. I think this mistake of mine is similar to one you made when you wrote: > > > But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my > > > meaning of that word, then concepts are conditioned > > > mind-door objects, and are not special except for > > > their usefulness and their perils. Why are there two things: 1, your meaning of the word and 2, the Tipitaka's meaning of the word? Doesn't this make understanding even more difficult? Original thinking may be a luxury we can't afford. Perhaps you and I should follow Num and Nina's lead when they say they are merely "parroting" what they have heard. (To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "Some parrots!") Changing the subject; we were talking about the intrinsic pleasantness/unpleasantness of sense objects. There is confusion over what each of us is trying to say. My point is: it is important to know that dhammas are absolute -- that their characteristics are independent of how they are reacted to. A rupa that becomes the object of consciousness is inherently pleasant or unpleasant. It depends, not on how it is perceived, but on how it is conditioned (and is conditioned by either kusala kamma or akusala kamma.) As a general rule, pleasant sense objects are reacted to with lobha and unpleasant objects with dosa but I think there are a lot of exceptions. I don't know why. It seems to be something other than vipallasa; it's probably just that various other conditions predominate. What is important though, is that we appreciate the absolute nature of dhammas: A rupa may be inherently pleasant even when it is experienced with dosa; or inherently unpleasant even when it is experienced with lobha. On the subject of the Commentaries, you wrote: --------------- > I do believe that they are to be accorded enormous > respect, deserving of careful analysis. I do not > believe they should ever serve as carte blanche > substitutes for our own minds. The Buddha said the same > even with regard to his OWN teachings. -------------- If I could take a pill that would swap my understanding for an arahant's understanding, I think I would. I assume you would not but there is no difference -- neither way is the Middle Way. When we have heard the Dhamma explained, right understanding will arise to the extent that it has been conditioned to arise -- there is no control. Kind regards, Ken H 24670 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 0:40am Subject: Intelligence or wisdom Dear Group, Do intelligence and wisdom correlate in any way? Does lack of intelligence mean that panna cannot arise? I wonder if there are different sorts of intelligence, or if intelligence fluctuates within the same person. I guess I'm feeling frustrated at not understanding, or sometimes not even being interested in, what others seem to understand so easily and feel so enthusiastic about regarding the Dhamma. I read the technical threads and the discussions between others and start to feel a little discouraged. I used to think it was because of the Pali - but it's not. I read somewhere that some people are born lacking something (a root?) which means that they will never be able to understand the Dhamma no matter how much sincere effort they put in. Does anyone remember what this is? Are there any suttas where any 'not so bright' people made progress? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24671 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I seldom get sick or have an accident. .... Let’s hope your good fortune (good vipaka) continues in this regard;-) .... > I wasn't thinking of any Pali word in particular for 'simplicity'. > Buddhadatta gives: 1. amissataa 2. viniitataa 3. sugamataa. I was just > thinking that 'voluntary simplicity' reflected my ideas of living a > simple life along the lines of fewness of wishes (icchataa), > contentment with little, enjoyment of a quiet life away from the > hustle and bustle of the modern world, having more leisure time to > devote oneself to meditation and study, and so on. I think there is > quite a lot in the Theravada teachings to support such a life. .... I think it would be useful and interesting to explore this further - especially icchatta (fewness of wishes) and contentment with little. I’d be glad to read anything further that you particularly have in mind from the texts, but I know you are hoping to be easing off on internet use for now. I’ll try, therefore to also resist adding any questions or comments that you might feel bound to respond to, Jim;-) Rather like 'solitude', I think there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and then fewness of wishes being the opposite of craving. I have a quote I like a lot about icchataa in this manner, but I may put it in another post to Nori. ..... >I think > one of the problems of living truly as a bhikkhu is the incredibly > wide gap between it and living as a layperson in a busy modern > society. It seems to me that for most people it is taking quite a > psychological leap to go from one to the other, a leap that was > probably not so great during the time of the Buddha when most people > were living a much simpler life than now. ... I’m sure that’s right for many. But, of course many of the bhikkhus left very wealthy and prestigious lay lives as well, so I’m not sure about this. Also, I’m not sure the leap in terms of leaving family and friends is ever less for those used to leading a simpler life. .... >I'm thinking that the simple > life as a layperson could be a bridge between the two in that the > layperson is free to work at his own pace towards the bhikkhu/homeless > person ideal. I also understand that there can be other approaches > too, it's really up to each individual to work out what's best. One > could also take up a simple solitary life in the city. .... I mostly agree with all your comments, Jim and I know that you have very kindly intentions to try to help and support others who wish to lead a simple solitary life as you have done for so long. I know you have gained a lot of experience in this regard that you can share and are very aware of the difficulties others may have. It’s kind of you to consider supporting those without internet access by snail mail. Azita very kindly prints out copies of DSG posts to send to thr ex-bhikkhus I mentioned and others. Anumodana, Azita. I'm just thinking that RobM's Xmas present CD could be of great use in this regard - if they at least have computers they can read the archives without internet access if they wish and then snailmail comments to pass back here. (Christine, maybe you could raise this at the Cooran weekend.) As I’ve mentioned before, while I think it’s good if we can support those living a solitary life by choice or conditions (and like Chris, I think it’s good to keep this topic alive here), to be honest, I’m not sure whether one can refer to a physically solitary life as ‘the bhikkhu/homeless ideal’. We read so much in the Vinaya and suttas about the duties of bhikkhus towards other bhikkhus and lay people. As you know, I’ve been reading the commentary to the Parinibbana sutta and the details about the welfare and harmony of the Sangha in terms of frequent assembly for so many purposes. I was also interested in the section (all in ch1) about “The well-behaved (pesalaa): those whose behaviour (siila) is good (piya).” In brief, these are the bhikkhus who ‘behave hospitably’ to visiting bhikkhus. If the visitor says “he will leave, they do not allow him to leave, saying things like, ‘this dwelling-place is suitable, it is easy to get almsfood.’ They rehearse the Vinaya and various teachings with the visiting elders. “The visitors will say, ‘Though when we came we thought that we would stay one or two days, it is such a pleasure to live with these people that we will stay ten or twelve years.’” And so, the Sangha prospers! Of course, this sociability is only to discuss Dhamma-Vinaya and we also read the details of those with jhana experiences well away from the ‘neighbourhood of a village’ and enjoying forest life. So much detail here. As Mike said, very specific conditions for these. ..... > Although I'm planning to go offline at the end of September, I will > soon be easing off from the internet traffic (I'm already looking for > the exit!) and not responding as much as before, but will keep looking > in and post the odd message. ..... October looks like it could be a bit quiet when Icaro is off at Boot Camp, you’re in hibernation as Nina puts it;-), and several of us head off to Thailand and Burma. Anything can happen. I’ve appreciated these discussions, Jim. Please don’t ever feel you need to respond to anything I write. Of course, anything you do say is always useful to reflect on. Metta, Sarah p.s If I have a chance (and an interpreter!), I'll try to ask K.Supee about Pali grammars too. ====== 24672 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan (& Htoo), --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > > Metta by proxy :o) .... Any metta is good metta :0) ..... > oh, what I had in mind was.. > since the faculties are unguarded lot of akusala kammas are happening, [...]. > Applying metta, giving a right-out-of-the-pocket donation to a beggar > etc.. > > although theres no way of measuring, I guess most of us people will have > similar accumulations of kusala and akusala dusring a day. .... I agree....far more akusala than we’re aware of, I’m sure... .... > Pardon my ignorance for not being very sure about what you/Jim are > looking > for, .... Sorry about that. If you look at this post of Jim’s, he explains in detail: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24487 i.e he’s looking for out-of-print Pali texts, esp. old grammar texts. I don’t think BPS can help. I think it’ll probably be another Pali expert that identifies a source for him...that’s why I thought you might have an idea, Gayan. Htoo might have an idea as well. It’s nice if we can help members here with unusual Theravada Buddhist requests. Dave (in US) wished to purchase a Buddha statue before and RobM generously offered to purchase one in Malaysia, have it blessed at his temple and send it to Dave. Even being able to appreciate these kind gestures is a way of heling the ‘break-even’;-) Btw, can we encourage you to translate any other passages you have up your sleeve on relevant topics? That would well and truly compensate for the KFC salivating;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24673 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Nina: Nina: " I thought you would become very busy now. I just > react here, because more > people think of music as a hindrance or impediment. > You will not be able to study much until february? > It is hard training in a > tropical climate. " ----------------------------------------------------- Thanxs! The region of the training is Minas Gerais, which climate is more moderated than Amazonia´s and less hard and dry than The Northeast! But here on Brazil the first forty days - quarantine! - are of total seclusion! All the time inside the barracks! I think that only at the end of october I will be allowed to go out at the weekends! (My Birthday is October 22nd). Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but seemed to me that the level of discussions over there is very high. I can try get a dictionary and a grammar of Indonesian... anyway, it was this way I´ve learned English, French, Japanese and now I am getting through Pali ( finally I downloaded the Duroseille Pali´s Grammar!!!). Only Chinese Mandarin I learned at usual ways...on sunday classes at the Christian Chinese Church here at Rio... and Portuguese, of course! Ni zao! Wô jiào míngzu Ícaro!!! Other languages as Swedish - I lived on Sweden in 1996-1997, Gothemburg - and Dutch I found to be very difficult to get only with a knack on books! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24674 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Dear Sarah: Sarah: "October looks like it could be a bit quiet when > Icaro is off at Boot Camp, > you’re in hibernation as Nina puts it;-), and > several of us head off to > Thailand and Burma. Anything can happen." -------------------------------------------------- "October the first is too late!"...heheheheh! Just kidding. It´s the title of a SF book by Fred Hoyle! The first forty days will be The Quarantine: total seclusion and all the time inside the barracks! After that we will allowed to go out at weekends! I am carrying on with me my walkman and some tapes of His Holiness The Dalai Lama´s audiobooks... to listen just before sleeping! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24675 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Nina: Nina:" No, nothing is a hindrance, except the tenth > impediment, mentioned by > Jon: supernormal powers. > Anything that comes up naturally can be seen as nama > and rupa, and more > understanding of them can be developed. There is > sound, that is real. > Thinking of music, playing music, liking it, they > are all paramattha > dhammas.~" ----------------------------------------------------- Well posed, Nina! Since music and dance can be viewed as an aggregate of nama, rupa... and citta, so they´re can be classified as Paramattha Dhammas. Citta plays a fundamental role at this Dhamma! Having got concepts about music, music this or music that - "Devil´s Music Vol. I" - are Sammuit-Sacca. I hope oldie Mike forgives me my occasional "Pharisaic" viewpoints! ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24676 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Thanks, Nina, Probably going off on a tangent--always good to be corrected. So 'result' always and only refers (in this sort of context) to vipaaka? And vipaaka always and only refers to rebirth? Is this ever applicable to kha.nika rebirth? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan > Dear Mike, > op 27-08-2003 17:23 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > > Could it be that the result of jhaana clung to by the sotaapanna is not > > rebirth but something else (e.g. a pleasant abiding here and now)? > N: The vipaka produced by kusala jhaanacitta can only be in the form of > rebirth. There is no other kind of vipaka. It is a happy rebirth, and can be > object of clinging, also for the sotaapanna, why not? It is not necessaruly > accompanied by wrong view. > Sassata di.t.thi: see Buddhis dict: belief in a soul that is lasting, > forever. > But there are many degrees of ditthi. Sassata seems to me an extreme form. > Nina. 24677 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/28/03 1:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > My > point is: it is important to know that dhammas are > absolute -- that their characteristics are independent > of how they are reacted to. A rupa that becomes the > object of consciousness is inherently pleasant or > unpleasant. It depends, not on how it is perceived, but > on how it is conditioned (and is conditioned by either > kusala kamma or akusala kamma.) > ========================= Much of your post includes material on which we differ, if we differ at all, only in terms of formulation, not substance. So I am only addressing the material quoted above. I may or may not be understanding what you are saying here. I *think* that what you are saying is the following: It is sloppy to speak of, for example, *the* rupa of hardess. There arise, at differing times, and due to differing conditions, various *differing* hardness rupas. Any particular hardness rupa that arises carries with it a specific affective flavor - a specific degree and kind of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral "taste" which is a feature of that particular rupa, and may well differ from the vedanic flavor of otherwise-conditioned hardness rupas. If that is what you are saying, then I think it is *very* interesting and quite plausible. My way of understanding has been more along the lines of various conditions leading to the arising of a particular rupa, and various conditions - some in common with the rupa-conditioning conditions, and some different from these, which condition the vedana that arises in association with that rupa. This latter means of understanding views the rupa as one dhamma, the vedana as another dhamma, and the two co-arising due to conditions. The former understanding (which I'll call "the intrinsic understanding") seems to have the conditioning be conditioning directly of the rupa, itself, with the vedana that arises being subordinate, and determined by, and intrinsic to the particular rupa. Of these two, I do find the intrinsic understanding to be aesthetically more pleasing and *simpler* than "the extrinsic understanding". Which is a more accurate statement of the facts is something I don't know. I do have two questions: Have I understood correctly what you mean, and, if so, does the Abhidhamma explicitly present the intrinsic understanding? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24678 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Ell Tee: ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 3:11 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > I hope oldie Mike forgives me my occasional > "Pharisaic" viewpoints! Forgiven, Sir! Enjoy your boots! mike 24679 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Dear Upasaka:"I do have two > questions: Have I understood > correctly what you mean, and, if so, does the > Abhidhamma explicitly present the > intrinsic understanding?" ----------------------------------------------------- Uplifted Upasaka! You are right: when one afirm an object - as image of a real one or as a mental stuff as ideas and concepts, such vedanas arose by means of a definite nama/rupa at our sense-doors: if mind is not a "tabula rasa" where the external world writes what it wishes, is not also a source of innate ideas that come of nowhere. The middle path at these questions is paramount! And yes, Abhidhamma has an intrinsic understanding. It´s Niyama with internal coherence! A big Metta to you, Uprighted Upasaka! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24680 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Nori, Thank you so much for your kind feedback. --- norakat147 wrote: N:> While I have often contemplated doing something like you have done > (that takes a lot of bal... ehem, guts), I also thought, depending on > what kind of situation I end up in, it might not be more conducive to > enlightenment. For one thing, I would not have access to the entire > tipitaka for study. Also, other problems might arise distracting me > from progress. .... Nori, I really truly believe that whatever the situation, our kilesa (defiements) always distract us from progress. I agree too, that with internet access and much of the Tipitaka easily available now, for many people the best opportunities for study and consideration maybe just where they are right now! I appreciate your comments and reflections on other threads too. I think that any exploration and development of understanding of the Dhamma takes ‘guts’. I think we all have different questions and stumbling blocks to overcome in our own way. So many of the points you raise remind me of questions and issues that I’ve also raised at one time or other and I’d like to encourage you to keep them flowing;-) You asked Victor (I think) for more elaboration on sense-desire clinging, but he seems to have disappeared for now, so let me add the quote I just mentioned on ‘fewness of wishes’ (appicchaata) as it relates to your question too. I take sense-desire clinging to include all kinds of attachment from the most subtle sense desire as soon as we open our eyes, hear, smell and so on, that we have no idea about in a day. (We also see how it ‘accumulates’). Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS) 846: “ ‘Herein, what is sense-desire clinging? That which in sense-desires is lust for sense-desires, greed for sense-desires, delight in sense-desires, craving for sense-desires, love of sense-desires, fever of sense-desires, infatuation with sense-desires, cleaving to sense-desires - this is called sense-desire clinging’ (Dhs 1214). Firmness of craving is a name for subsequent craving that has become firm owing to previous craving, which acts as its decisive support condition. But some have said: ‘Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping the goods. These states are opposed to fewness of wishes (appicchaata) and contentment. Hence they are the root of the suffering due to seeking and guarding [of property]’ (see Dii58f). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [wrong] view.” **** Thanks also Nori for your quote; > From Itivuttaka: > § 82. {Iti III.33; Iti 75} > "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have > heard: "These three divine sounds sound forth among the devas on > appropriate occasions. Which three? When a disciple of the noble > ones, shaving off his hair & beard, clothing himself in the ochre > robe, makes up his mind to go forth from the home life into > homelessness, on that occasion the divine sound sounds forth among > the devas: 'This disciple of the noble ones has made up his mind to > do battle with Mara.' This is the first divine sound that sounds > forth among the devas on appropriate occasions." > N:> This is suggested many times in the tipitaka. Maybe this is for those > in advanced stages. In the meantime, I will do battle with mara right > here. First I must know the basics. ..... I think that’s right (i.e we all need to learn the basics first;-)) and can appreciate the ‘going forth’ and pay respect to the Sangha, appreciating especially the ‘fewness of wishes’ of the ariyan disciples referred to in the passage you quote. In the other translations, it’s clearer perhaps that ‘disciple of the noble ones’ refers to an Ariyan disciple, i.e one who has become enlightened already. The second and third sounds refer to the increase in wisdom of the Ariyan disciple and full eradication of all defilements, ie arhantship. Woodward’s translation of the final verse (PTS) is: “Beholding him victorious in the fight, Disciple of the rightly wakened One, Even the devas call aloud in honour Of him the mighty one, of wisdom ripe: ‘We worship thee, O thoroughbred of men! For thou hast won the battle hard to win, Routing by thy release (from birth-and-death) The host of Death that could not hinder more,’ Thus do they praise him who has won the goal. Surely the devas praise in him that thing By which one goes to mastery of Death.” ..... >Back in those times in Kosala > territory, it might have been more conducive to attainment then today > (to be homeless) since many learned men wandered about and it gave > one access to the teachings; Since writing did not exist yet, one > could not just read them in a book, or on the internet. .... I think there’s a lot of truth in this. Thanks again for your comments and fine questions, Nori. Perhaps Mike, Victor or others will add their comments too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24681 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, This is just a quick response mostly to correct a mistake I made. 'Icchataa' should be 'appicchataa' (appa = few). It's in the Book of Ones (or is it the Twos?) of AN. I also think it might be one of the five dhuras. There is quite a bit of AN commentary on this as well. I'm afraid I don't know all that much about it and would have to study it further. Also Suan's 'nikkhaamma' should be 'nekkhamma'. I think the discussion is interesting and an important one for me and I hope we can continue on with it for a little while longer. Yesterday, I was looking at the possibility of a correlation of the quiet life vs the busy life to introversion vs extroversion, to the way of the samathayaanika vs that of the vipassanaayaanika, to the yin and the yang. I took yesterday off (a new moon day) to do an all day sit and today I'm going on a long walk and stopping by for groceries on the way back. I will get back to you, Suan, and Christine at a later time. I'm afraid my study of Vism stopped when the lights went out two weeks ago and it doesn't look like I'll be able to resume it until the phone line is disconnected now that this discussion is on the go. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Jim, > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > > I seldom get sick or have an accident. > .... > Let's hope your good fortune (good vipaka) continues in this regard;-) > .... > > I wasn't thinking of any Pali word in particular for 'simplicity'. > > Buddhadatta gives: 1. amissataa 2. viniitataa 3. sugamataa. I was just > > thinking that 'voluntary simplicity' reflected my ideas of living a > > simple life along the lines of fewness of wishes (icchataa), > > contentment with little, enjoyment of a quiet life away from the > > hustle and bustle of the modern world, having more leisure time to > > devote oneself to meditation and study, and so on. I think there is > > quite a lot in the Theravada teachings to support such a life. > .... > I think it would be useful and interesting to explore this further - > especially icchatta (fewness of wishes) and contentment with little. I'd > be glad to read anything further that you particularly have in mind from > the texts, but I know you are hoping to be easing off on internet use for > now. [...] 24682 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Sarah (and Nori), ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:41 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Thanks for the great quote, especially: > 'Craving is > the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's > stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an > object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping the goods. These > states are opposed to fewness of wishes (appicchaata) and contentment. These similes seem to me to apply as well to fewness of wishes and contentment as to anything else. mike 24683 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: "Ell Tee:" -------------------------------------------------- Heh!!! Indonesian !!!!!!!!!! I will begin with a Berlitz guide to speaking Indonesian... ------------------------------------------------- Mike: Forgiven, Sir! Enjoy your boots!" ------------------------------------------------- That reminds me a tune of Iron Maiden: " Die with your boots on". I know...I know... You do prefer old fashioned blues... but here is the song: Die With Your Boots On Adrian Smith, Bruce Dickinson, Steve Harris Another Prophet of Disaster Who says the ship is lost, Another Prophet of Disaster Leaving you to count the cost. Taunting us with Visions, Afflicting us with fear, Predicting War for millions, In the hope that one appears. No point asking when it is, No point asking who's to go, No point asking what's the game, No point asking who's to blame. 'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die, 'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die, If you're gonna die, die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, just stick around, Gonna cry, just move along, If you're gonna die, you're gonna die. In 13 the Beast is rising, The Frenchman did surmise, Through earthquakes and starvation, The warlord will arise. Terror, Death, Destruction, Pour from the Eastern Sands, But the truth of all predictions, Is always in your hands. If you're gonna die, die with your boots on, If you're gonna try, just stick around, Gonna cry, just move along, If you're gonna die, you're gonna die. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24684 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:09am Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Christine, and all How are you? You asked: "I couldn't find nikkhama in the dictionary - should it be spelled differently, or be part of a larger word? I know it is used in the sense of renunciation, but I have also seen it used as meaning 'performing tasks without hoping to obtain wealth, fame or privileges'." Spelling is correct, and the entries "nikkhama" and "nikkhamati" appear on page 353 in Pali Text Society Pali-English Dictionary as follows. -------------------- Nikkhama (p. 353) (adj.) [cp. Sk. niṣkrama] going out from PvA 80 (nāsikāya n.--mala). dun° at Th 1, 72 is to be read dunnikkhaya, = as indicated by vv. ll. See the latter. Next entry Nikkhamati (p. 353) [Sk. niṣkramati, nis+kamati] to go forth from, to= come out of (c. abl.), to get out, issue forth, depart, fig. to leave the household life behind (agārā n.), to retire from the world (c= p. abhinikkhamati etc.), or to give up evil desire. -- (a) lit. (often with bahi outside, out; opp. pavisati to enter into: A V.195). D II.14 (mātu kucchismā); J I.52 (mātukucchito). Imper. nikkha= ma Pv. I.103; ppr. nikkhamanto J I.52; II.153; III.26 (mukhato); PvA 90; aor. nikkhami J II.154; III.188; fut. °issati J II.154; ger. nikkhamma J I.51, 61 (fig.) & nikkhamitvā J I.16, 138 (fig.), 265; III.26; IV.449 (n. pabbajissāmi); PvA 14, 19 (fig.) 67 (gāmato), = 74 (id.); inf. nikkhamituŋ J I.61 (fig.); II.104; Pv I.102 (bahi n.); grd. nikkhamitabba Vin I.47. <-> (b) fig. (see also nikkamati, & cp. nekkhamma & BSk. niṣkramati in same meaning, e. g. Divy 68 etc.) S I.156 (ārabbhati+)=Miln 245 (where nikkamati); J I.51 (agārā= ), 61 (mahābhinikkhamanaŋ "the great renunciation"), PvA 19 (id.). -- p= p. nikkhanta; caus. nikkhameti (q. v.). You also asked: "What do you mean by an 'infallible level'?" When your practice of samatha and vipassanaa becomes part of your system and your first nature, your mental development (bhaavanaa) is said to be on the path (you are having maggasaccaa, the path truth). In natural English, the practice of your mental cultivation is on course, on track. When you reach the stage of being on the right track in the practice of concentration and insight as your first nature in the Buddhist training framework, I define your stage as being at an infallible level. You began your post with the following. "I agree, for most Buddhist people in most western societies there is not the choice of dhamma study and practice while being supported practically and encouraged spiritually. So it becomes a lifestyle choice of those with an income stream which doesn't require daily attendance at a worldly job. This is not within the possibilities open to the ordinary person. Which is partly how the discussion arose elsewhere about alternative lifestyles that would allow women or men to devote their time (that scarce resource) to dhamma study and practice without needing to spend 12-15 hours a day attending to survival, travel and maintenance needs." Your observation above is so important that it should be considered against the wider backdrop of the disappearance of Buddhism in India. I read a few years ago about a Burmese Buddhist monastery in Sourth Africa where a Myanmar Sayadaw and his assistant, an Australian Sayadaw, have been undertaking saasana duties. The Aussi Sayadaw serves as the main communicatior of dhamma affairs. They observe that the majority of listeners to Buddhism comes from the white population. This also speak volumes about the lotus position of Buddhism. After all, Buddhism comes from the royal caste, and is the religion of the kings and rulers in Asia. Looking forward to more of your insights regarding how best we could create supportive communities for the serious Buddhist practitioners in a totally-commercialized western society. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org metta and peace, Christine 24685 From: danny_shepherd Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:00am Subject: Hello from Prague HI! I would like to say a short hello to everybody in this dhamma group. My name is Peter and I presently live in Prague, Czech Republik, Europe. Ive been interested in buddhism for a few years. This year I visited Wat Pah Nanachat, Wat Pah Baan Taad, then I went to see Ajahn Jayasaro and Ajahn Jundee. This all was in Thailand. This raining season there is a monk Ajahn Chandako staying in Czech Republic so if you happen to be passing drop me an email and I give you more details. There is a short info on www.volny.cz/chandako/en_index.htm Be well and patient :) Peter St. 24686 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B. series: 9 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:48:48 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B. series: 9 B Relevant sutta passage: atha kho bhagavaa apaloketvaa aayasmanta.m raahula.m aamantesi -- ``ya.m ki~nci, raahula, ruupa.m -- atiitaanaagatapaccuppanna.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa -- sabba.m ruupa.m `neta.m mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attaa'ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya da.t.thabba''nti. ``ruupameva nu kho, bhagavaa, ruupameva nu kho, sugataa''ti? ``ruupampi, raahula, vedanaapi, raahula, sa~n~naapi, raahula, sa"nkhaaraapi, raahula, vi~n~naa.nampi, raahulaa''ti. "Rahula, whatever form, - past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, base or exalted, whether it is far or near, - all form should be seen as it really is with right wisdom in such a way: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me". "Form only, Lord? Form only, Blessed One?² "Also feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, Rahula, as well as form." Commentary: tattha ya.mki~nci ruupantiaadiini sabbaakaarena visuddhimagge khandhaniddese vitthaaritaani. Here, as to the words, ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m, whatever form (material phenomena), these are explained in every way in the ³Visuddhimagga², ³Description of the Aggregates² (Ch XIV). neta.m mamaatiaadiini mahaahatthipadopame vuttaani. As to the words, n'eta.m mama, this is not myself etc., these have been explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28). ruupameva nu kho bhagavaati kasmaa pucchati? Why did Rahula ask, "Only materiality, Lord?² tassa kira -- ``sabba.m ruupa.m neta.m mama, nesohamasmi na meso attaa''ti sutvaa -- `` Since he had heard, ³all materiality is not mine, I am not this, this is not me" bhagavaa sabba.m ruupa.m vipassanaapa~n~naaya eva.m da.t.thabbanti vadati, and the Lord had said that all materiality should be seen thus by insight knowledge, vedanaadiisu nu kho katha.m pa.tipajjitabba''nti nayo udapaadi. he was wondering by which method he should practise with regard to feelings and so on. tasmaa tasmi.m naye .thito pucchati. Rahula was steadfast in the methods of teaching and therefore he asked such a question. nayakusalo hesa aayasmaa raahulo, ida.m na kattabbanti vutte When the Buddha said, ³This is conduct that is wholesome, Rahula, and this should not be done², idampi na kattabba.m idampi na kattabbamevaati nayasatenapi nayasahassenapi pa.tivijjhati. he comprehended with a hundred and even a thousand methods as to what should not be done that it truly should not be done, ida.m kattabbanti vuttepi eseva nayo. and he also understood what was said with regard to what should be done with the same methods. **** English: Here, as to the words, ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m, whatever form (material phenomena), these are explained in every way in the ³Visuddhimagga², ³Description of the Aggregates² (Ch XIV). As to the words, n'eta.m mama, this is not myself etc., these have been explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28). Why did Rahula ask, "Only materiality, Lord?² Since he had heard, ³all materiality is not mine, I am not this, this is not me" and the Lord had said that all materiality should be seen thus by insight knowledge, he was wondering by which method he should practise with regard to feelings and so on. Rahula was steadfast in the methods of teaching and therefore he asked such a question. When the Buddha said, ³This is conduct that is wholesome, Rahula, and this should not be done², he comprehended with a hundred and even a thousand methods as to what should not be done that it truly should not be done, and he also understood what was said with regard to what should be done with the same methods. **** Nina. 24687 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Hi Larry, here is one snetence, but I still have to refine it. op 28-08-2003 02:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism. XIV, 9: "Herein, the singlefold meaning is obvious in meaning." > > L: This should read "the singlefold section is obvious in meaning". > > The singlefold kind of understanding is understanding as having the > characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states. N:Vis. subco 8. dhammasabhaavapa.tivedho naama pa~n~naaya aave.niko sabhaavo, na tenassaa koci vibhaago labbhatiiti aaha The penetration of the individual natures of dhammas is truly the special characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa''ti. ³Because of its characteristic of penetration of the individual natures of dhammas it is just so of one kind.² Nina. 24688 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a misquote. Hi Icaro. You misquoted me!!!! op 27-08-2003 22:44 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Nina states that perhaps only > formal Bhikkhus can attain Satipatthana... and if I > could understand well her words, she is really right > at this matter. N: This misquote is understandable, because now you have the hustle bustle of packing, training, jogging, etc. Too much. I would suggest, we resume discussions on this difficult subject until Febr. Then you can read your Chmas present at ease. I find Sarah's idea of studying one Pali sentence of Patthana at a time an excellent idea. Or it could be Dhammasangani, if you like. My own experience is that before I realize it I give the sentence a totally different meaning, not knowing the real meaning of the Pali sentence. It is so tricky. I can also help with the Veldhuis spelling for Email, or perhaps you know it? Nina. 24689 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intelligence or wisdom Hi Christine My sense is that one needs at least and average or above intellegence to understand the more intricate parts of the teaching. Motivation plays an important role for even an average intellegence with enough motivation can do wonders. I believe Albert Einstein said something like -- "I'm not smarter than others, I've just spent more time on the problem." Wisdom seems to be come from a different area than intellegence because it just doesn't seem from observation that highly intellegent people have any special proclivity to being wise. It doesn't seem to help or hurt their chances. I think of wisdom as a skill. Skills develop when time is put in cultivating them. I think wisdom also comes from refection on what actions will lead to what results and the accuracy of such relflections. And especially looking for the roots of why things are happening the way they are. Not accepting merely the surface appearance of things or the "easy answer." Its holding truth in very high regard and being methodically careful in uncovering truth. And applying solid common sense to the search for truth. TG In a message dated 8/28/2003 12:42:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > Do intelligence and wisdom correlate in any way? Does lack of > intelligence mean that panna cannot arise? I wonder if there are > different sorts of intelligence, or if intelligence fluctuates within > the same person. > I guess I'm feeling frustrated at not understanding, or sometimes not > even being interested in, what others seem to understand so easily > and feel so enthusiastic about regarding the Dhamma. I read the > technical threads and the discussions between others and start to > feel a little discouraged. I used to think it was because of the > Pali - but it's not. > I read somewhere that some people are born lacking something (a > root?) which means that they will never be able to understand the > Dhamma no matter how much sincere effort they put in. Does anyone > remember what this is? Are there any suttas where any 'not so > bright' people made progress? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > 24690 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intelligence or wisdom Hi, TG (and Christine) - In a message dated 8/28/03 2:56:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Christine > > My sense is that one needs at least and average or above intellegence to > understand the more intricate parts of the teaching. Motivation plays an > important role for even an average intellegence with enough motivation can > do wonders. > I believe Albert Einstein said something like -- "I'm not smarter than > others, I've just spent more time on the problem." > > Wisdom seems to be come from a different area than intellegence because it > just doesn't seem from observation that highly intellegent people have any > special proclivity to being wise. It doesn't seem to help or hurt their > chances. > > I think of wisdom as a skill. Skills develop when time is put in > cultivating > them. I think wisdom also comes from refection on what actions will lead to > > what results and the accuracy of such relflections. And especially looking > for the roots of why things are happening the way they are. Not accepting > merely the surface appearance of things or the "easy answer." Its holding > truth in > very high regard and being methodically careful in uncovering truth. And > applying solid common sense to the search for truth. > > TG > =========================== I agree that, typically, average or better intelligence is needed. But according to at least one sutta, even one of quite limited intelligence can become an ariyan. There is the case of a sutta in which a man of below average intelligence was instructed by the Buddha to take a rag in his hand, and pay attention to nothing but repeatedly rubbing it. This repetitive practice evidently led to one-pointedness of mind and calm, and the observing of the gradual dirtying of the rag from the rubbing apparently led to a keen insight into impermanence, and - bottom line - if memory serves me correctly, the man achieved the first stage of enlightenement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24691 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Brief absence Hello All, I'm taking a brief leave of absence (two or three days) from dsg for the Cooran Get-together. Thank you for your replies on the 'Supportive spiritual communities for Lay Buddhists' and 'Intelligence or Wisdom' threads. Hopefully, I'll get back to those next Sun/Mon. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24692 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a misquote. Dear Nina: Nina: "Hi Icaro. > You misquoted me!!!!" ----------------------------------------------------- Oh! Pardonnez-moi !!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- > N: This misquote is understandable, because now you > have the hustle bustle > of packing, training, jogging, etc. Too much. I > would suggest, we resume > discussions on this difficult subject until Febr. > Then you can read your > Chmas present at ease." -------------------------------------------------- Sometimes I look at the luggage I intend to carry on to travel and think: " Gosh!!! I am travelling to Australia!!!" I simply don´t know how many itens I must take with me... I look forward a paradigm as the Buddhist monk that can only carry three robes, a bowl, a staff, barber blade,etc... nine objects! I cannot make it so simple! And this question about Satipatthana is really abstruse. Sorry! ----------------------------------------------------- Nina:" I find Sarah's idea of > studying one Pali sentence of > Patthana at a time an excellent idea. Or it could be > Dhammasangani, if you > like. My own experience is that before I realize it > I give the sentence a > totally different meaning, not knowing the real > meaning of the Pali > sentence." -------------------------------------------------- That´s a good idea! I´ve downloaded the Duroseille´s Pali grammar, and a good Dictionary... so I intend attack the Visuddhimagga Comys with confidence at right time! --------------------------------------------------- Nina: "It is so tricky. > I can also help with the Veldhuis spelling for > Email, or perhaps you know > it? " --------------------------------------------------- About pali fonts for windows, no problem! I bought also the Lonely Planet´s Indonesian conversation! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24693 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Hi Nina, I was going to pick up the pace a little but if you are going to translate the entire subcommentary I won't. We would all enjoy reading this material, but I wonder if it may be too much to do. What do you think? Larry 24694 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: L: 3. If carriages and persons are perceived to be impermanent then why are they not sabhaava-dhammas? S: Because, to quote back from n18: " A dhamma that is an individual essence with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three characteristics, is "positively produced". But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name ...." In other words, carriages and persons are not marked by the ri-lakkhana, are not conditioned, are not marked by the phases of arising, existing and ceasing and have no sabhaava. They are 'produced' or conceived by thinking only. Larry: Hmm, seems like your argument doesn't add up. If carriages and persons are perceived (or understood) to be impermanent, then that in itself makes them perceived to have impermanent characteristics. If you assert that carriages and persons have no impermanent characteristics then I think you are saying you believe carriages and persons are permanent or at least not impermanent. Is that what you believe? Hypothetical Sarah (H.S.) might say yes, that is what I, H.S., believe because I don't directly see the impermanent characteristics of carriages and persons. In other words, I, H.S., don't directly see the impermanent group of impermanent rupa that is called carriages nor the impermanent group of impermanent khandhas that is called a person. In that case, what if someone else says they do see these rupas and khandhas as impermanent and they call them carriages and persons. Who has the right view? I don't think we can understand anatta unless we understand precisely what is denied in "anatta". So far, the only thing being denied is permanence. Where is the belief or assumption of permanence? Do you think a name is permanent? I'm not saying there is no such false belief or assumption, but I think we have to identify it in experience. Larry 24695 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) Dear All, I've just got an idiot idea for us which still cling to sensual desire. As we know Sila is refraining us from bad conduct including the mistaken sex. But to perform Sila is very exhausting, just like a work of a door-keeper which have to keep a wild man (example a heroin addicted man) inside the house. Every time the wild man become crazy, the door keeper could probably be unable to withstand the door. The better way is to do Samadhi, which could be assumed as a man which binds the wild man to a pole inside the house. But this also do not always succeed, because we cannot bind the wild man at all time (we cannot meditate all time). When we stop meditating, the more powerful desire could arise. The best way is to arise Panna, just like an advisor which reminds the crazy man, touch his mind and heart, makes this wild man realize the uselessness of his crazy desire. I think we could arise panna to counter-attact the sex desire, by meditating on corpse (I believe it is in SatiPattana Sutta). By the way, I try to find pictures of beautiful lady corpse until it is destructed to skull and bones, but it is not succeed. If somebody has it, please send me the address. As I mention above, it is an idiot idea, every smile and laugh is appreciated. Sabbe Satta Bhavantu Sukhitatta. Thanks, Eaglenarius 24696 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:57pm Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, Howard, Jim and all, Howard, thanks for those questions, they'll need more time than I have available today. Instead of writing to dsg, I should be preparing a discussion paper for Cooran. (Three months notice just wasn't enough!) Sarah and Jim, your "simple living" conversation would make a great discussion paper. I might simply print out the latest message (24671), if you don't mind. Virtually all of the Cooran group have either tried or want to try, living the simple, rural life. Some of us still are: Reg's 'home among the gum trees' isn't much more sophisticated than the one I built on my farm. (I never got around to that external wall in the bathroom. Showering was a bracing experience in winter and accompanied by toads around your feet in summer.) > Rather like 'solitude', I think > there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and > then fewness of wishes being the opposite of craving. This is great material! When there is no craving, there is fewness of wishes; when there is craving, there is no fewness of wishes. We need to know which of the two exists right now -- no matter which it is. That is when satipatthana happens. No point in waiting for changed physical surroundings; satipatthana can only happen now. And as a bonus, a moment of satipatthana has fewness of wishes! Thanks for all your work. I'll have time to go surfing after all. Kind regards, Ken H 24697 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:38pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/28/03 10:00:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, Howard, Jim and all, > > Howard, thanks for those questions, they'll need more > time than I have available today. ========================== Thank *you*. What you had to say was very interesting to me, and it set me to thinking along what may be very useful lines. In addition, it seems to have had another salutary effect: Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find much more there than has seemed to be the case to me. Now, mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24698 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Suan and all, > Dear Jim, Sara, Christine, and all > > How are you? > > The Pali term that occurred to me when I first read Jim's plans to go > off-line and hibernate was nikkhama paaramiitaa undertaken without > ordination for a short period of time. Thank-you for thinking of this. Although you seem to stand by the spelling 'nikkhama' in your response to Christine, don't you think it should be 'nekkhamma' as one of the ten paaramiitas (see under 'paaramii' in PED)? Anyway, it's a Pali term I'm not too familiar with, and one which I would have to look into. Can you point to a good Pali text for further study? > Jim's plans sound to me physical distancing from usual busy > engagements. > > Even though nikkhama paaramiitaa is best fulfilled as an ordained > bhikkhu or as a ten-precept Theravada nun or as a Mahayana bhikkhuni > (like in the case of a controversial Thai female professor did with > the help of Taiwanese Mahayana bhikkhunis), lay people like us can > also fulfil it in many forms if in limited capacities. > > All forms of nikkhama are designed to free ourselves from the usual > obligations of social, societal and interpersonal engagements. > > Ironically, the question an aspirant nikkhama seeker needs to ask > oneself is how to fund this luxury of disengagement in a western > acquisitive materialistic society like Australia. It appears that > only rich people can afford nikkhama paaramiitaa, the luxury of > disengagement, - the societal disengagement in particular. > > Everyone in a western society like Australia is conditioned to fulfil > the obligations of societal engagements to live. Societal > disengagement means beginning with deprivation of livelihood leading > to unprotected homelessness and untimely ending with death - yes, in > the rich First World. > > Thus, unless you have already amassed funds for living expenses to > last for the rest of your life, nikkhama paaramiitaa at the level of > complete societal disengagement cannot be fulfilled. I live in Canada which is a British commonwealth country like yours, and I would assume that our two countries share a lot in common as far as the social structures and the standard of living are concerned. I was never a wealthy person when young yet I was able to retire permanently at the age of 32 in late '79 with the help of a small disability pension I started receiving later the following year which I still receive. I had decided at the time that I would spend the rest of my life devoted to the study and practice of dhamma, my career of choice as it were. Actually, I never did have a career, I just earned my keep by taking on the odd temporary or part-time job and found that I could live reasonably well on a total of three months wages per year -- so you could say that the working part of my life was one of a semi-retiree. Although my income has always remained small I think I have managed quite well with my frugal lifestyle and the ability to save substantial amounts of money from which I was able to purchase my own private hermitage in 1988 and since then I have been able to give up half of my pension income because I just didn't need the money and yet I now live on a third of my income and still continue to accumulate vast sums of money. Because of the interest income I receive from my savings, I think I could now manage without the pension. So from my own experience, I can't see why others who live in a Western society such as ours could not work something out. I'm sure it can be done. We just need more pioneers to show the way. I also think that if this ever turned into a social movement it could act as a healthy counterforce to Western materialism and help alleviate some of our social problems. Best wishes, Jim 24699 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:56pm Subject: side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, ------------------ > I *think* that what you are saying is > . . > > There arise, at differing times, and due to differing > conditions, various *differing* hardness rupas. Any > particular hardness rupa that arises carries with it a > specific affective flavor - a specific degree and kind > of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral "taste" which is a > feature of that particular rupa, and may well differ > from the vedanic flavor of otherwise-conditioned > hardness rupas. > > . . . > > Have I understood correctly what you mean, ---------------- That's about the way I understand it -- the 'flavour' is inherent in the rupa-arammana. Rupas, such as hardness and colour, must be either pleasant or unpleasant. I'm not sure that this characteristic is actually conditioned by kamma; I *think* that kamma simply determines which rupa will be detected -- a pleasant one or an unpleasant one. The detection of the 'flavour' of a rupa is dependent on contact (phassa). When the body-base contacts a tactile rupa, phassa is strong enough for the flavour to be experienced as either pleasant physical feeling or unpleasant physical feeling -- never neutral. Whenever body contact *seems* to be accompanied by neutral physical feeling, that is due to our inadequate awareness. When rupa contacts other sense bases, however, phassa is not strong enough for this 'flavour' to be detected. Therefore, eye, ear, nose or tongue-door consciousness is always accompanied by neutral physical feeling. When unpleasant physical feeling seems to accompany it -- for example when we taste a too-strong curry -- it is not tongue contact but body contact (with tactile object), that is responsible. ---------- > and, if so, > does the Abhidhamma explicitly present the intrinsic > understanding? ---------- I'm not good at providing references and my knowledge of the Abhidhamma is all second hand. But I'm sure its there. As I remember, Rob M also missed it on the first reading, so it must be hard to find. Kind regards, Ken H 24700 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 28-08-2003 06:30 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: . So 'result' > always and only refers (in this sort of context) to vipaaka? And vipaaka > always and only refers to rebirth? I should add something: kusala jhanacitta produces result only in the next life (provided the jhana does not decline) in the form of: rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and dying-consciousness. M:Is this ever applicable to kha.nika > rebirth? N: you mean momentary birth of each citta? 24701 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Icaro, I really rejoice at this news. I did not know they had a webside, since I am not a webgoer. I wish they would transl some of their messages for us. Nina. op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but seemed > to me that the level of discussions over there is very > high. 24702 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:07pm Subject: side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, > but I *am* saying that this little > back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of > abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly > study the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It's kind of you to say so. I only hope what I told you was right! If it wasn't, someone will say so soon enough. I won't look at the messages till I get back from Cooran -- no sense in spoiling my weekend :-) Ken H 24703 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Oh Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, Howard, Jim and all, > > Howard, thanks for those questions, they'll need more > time than I have available today. Instead of writing to > dsg, I should be preparing a discussion paper for Cooran. > (Three months notice just wasn't enough!) > > Sarah and Jim, your "simple living" conversation would > make a great discussion paper. I might simply print out the > latest message (24671), if you don't mind. .... Classic! You're obviously THE expert on simple 'simply living';-) BUT, I'll make a deal - you have to report back to us in detail (or delegate at the very least and it doesn't sound like it'll be Reg;-)) .... > > Virtually all of the Cooran group have either tried or > want to try, living the simple, rural life. Some of us > still are: Reg's 'home among the gum trees' isn't much > more sophisticated than the one I built on my farm. (I > never got around to that external wall in the bathroom. > Showering was a bracing experience in winter and > accompanied by toads around your feet in summer.) .... Some say that the good friend is half or all the holy life. In your case, I think it's the good wife;-) .... > > > Rather like 'solitude', I think > > there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and > > then fewness of wishes being the opposite of craving. > > This is great material! When there is no craving, there > is fewness of wishes; when there is craving, there is no > fewness of wishes. We need to know which of the two > exists right now -- no matter which it is. That is when > satipatthana happens. No point in waiting for changed > physical surroundings; satipatthana can only happen now. > And as a bonus, a moment of satipatthana has fewness of > wishes! .... ;-) ..... > Thanks for all your work. I'll have time to go surfing > after all. .... We're all glad about that;-) I can tell you're going to have some great discussions. Remember the agenda so far as I can work out is: Christine: Accumulations and more Accumulations Ken H: Simple 'Simply Living': Reflections on a Surfboard Azita: The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way with the help of Chittapala's article on its way to DSG;-) Andrew: Ethical Right Livelihood in Swedish?? Steve: Qus on Patisambhidamagga requiring Christine's full travelling library Reg: Home Among the Gum Trees: Linking up with other Solitary Dwellers ***** Not sure who else will be there, but it sounds like a great mix to date and I wouldn't rely on getting any sleep. Look forward to the reports. Metta, Sarah ===== 24704 From: Pure Faith Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:22pm Subject: News: Vietnam starts preservation work on mummified monks Hi everybody, An interesting read over at: http://www.buddhistnews.tv/ metta, pf ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vietnam starts preservation work on mummified monks Restoration work has begun in Vietnam to preserve the mummified remains of two Buddhist monks dating back over 300 years. Despite their age, the well-intact condition of the corpses continues to baffle scientists to this day. [snip]...... 24705 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Jeff, Glad to see you here - I think this is the first time you've posted. --- Jeff wrote: > Greetings Rob > > Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd burner, but I would be > more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I listed for > Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional chants, or whatever > you could make time for. It would be much appreciated as I can only > locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. .... We've found out a little about you from your selection of CDs in your other message and I'm glad to see your interest in the Pali chants as well. I see you're from Fresno. Are you connected to the group there Kom has mentioned? If it doesn't ring a bell, then the answer is probably not. Maybe Kom can give more details. Anyway, please add anything else about your interest in Dhamma or how you found your way here. I look forward to further comments or contributions from you too - especially those based on the Theravada tradition;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24706 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 p.s. Hope you don't mind if we call you Jeff B. as we have another Jeff (Jhana Jeff) here. Sarah --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Glad to see you here - I think this is the first time you've posted. > > --- Jeff wrote: > Greetings Rob 24707 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from Prague Hi Peter St, Thanks for giving your intro and helping us not to get you confused with other Peters here;-) --- danny_shepherd wrote: > HI! > I would like to say a short hello to everybody in this dhamma group. > My name > is Peter and I presently live in Prague, Czech Republik, Europe. Ive > been > interested in buddhism for a few years. ... We certainly don't have many members from Prague or Eastern Europe - I believe there may be one other?? I'd be interested to know how you became interested in Buddhism and whether it was in English. From the web/internet? .... >This year I visited Wat Pah > Nanachat, Wat Pah Baan Taad, then I went to see Ajahn Jayasaro and > Ajahn > Jundee. This all was in Thailand. This raining season there is a monk > Ajahn > Chandako staying in Czech Republic so if you happen to be passing > drop me an > email and I give you more details. There is a short info on > www.volny.cz/chandako/en_index.htm .... I had a look. Thank you for the link. It would be good to hear anything more about your trip to Thailand too. Obviously you have a temple in Prague and it's good to hear about the community. Hope you find it useful here. Let us know if you have any questions, comments or disagreements on any topic or wish to start a new one. The posts can also be found here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Let me know if there's anything else we can help with. Metta, Sarah ====== 24708 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, I have a couple of other passages I’m hoping to come back on still, but I keep getting distracted by all the other exciting threads.....No Hurry;-) Back to this one: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Larry: Hmm, seems like your argument doesn't add up. If carriages and > persons are perceived (or understood) to be impermanent, then that in > itself makes them perceived to have impermanent characteristics. .... If carriages and persons are perceived (or understood) to exist, then they are perceived to exist by sanna, citta and ditthi vipallasa (perversions of perception, mind and view) only. It doesn’t mean they exist. Therefore no sabhava (distinct nature). .... > If you assert that carriages and persons have no impermanent > characteristics then I think you are saying you believe carriages and > persons are permanent or at least not impermanent. Is that what you > believe? .... They have no impermanent characteristics, they are not permanent or impermanent. They don’t exist as Ken H and Howard were discussing. .... > Hypothetical Sarah (H.S.) might say yes, that is what I, H.S., believe > because I don't directly see the impermanent characteristics of > carriages and persons. In other words, I, H.S., don't directly see the > impermanent group of impermanent rupa that is called carriages nor the > impermanent group of impermanent khandhas that is called a person. .... H.S. might say no;-) H.S. doesn’t see anything. Panna understands rupas and the characteristics of rupas. No carriages or people in rupas. .... > In that case, what if someone else says they do see these rupas and > khandhas as impermanent and they call them carriages and persons. Who > has the right view? .... Panna. .... > I don't think we can understand anatta unless we understand precisely > what is denied in "anatta". So far, the only thing being denied is > permanence. Where is the belief or assumption of permanence? Do you > think a name is permanent? I'm not saying there is no such false belief > or assumption, but I think we have to identify it in experience. .... A name doesn’t exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over again. Does this clarify what I said, otherwise, pls let me know. Metta, Sarah ===== 24709 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Nina: Nina: " Dear Icaro, > I really rejoice at this news. I did not know they > had a webside, since I am > not a webgoer. > I wish they would transl some of their messages for > us. > Nina." ----------------------------------------------------- I think that this news is very inspiring! The high level of discussions are paramount! As Connie said at other message, a day without reading dsg news is a day missing!!!!!! (taking the indonesian phrasebook)about Bogor Group Online, you will find them at http://www.buddhistonline.com/ Selamat pagi, Ibu Van Gorkon! Nama saya Ícaro. Saya dari Brazil, Orang Brazil. Saya merasa senang!!!! HAHAH!!! That´s just the way I begun learning japanese and French!!! Unfortunately there´s not a Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op > icarofranca@y...: > > > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group > > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but > seemed > > to me that the level of discussions over there is > very > > high. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24710 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Re: L: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) > include > the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. > Space and time belong to the last mentioned." > Why only "some concepts"? > ***** > S: I've read the Vism note carefully, checked the Sammohavinodani and so > > on and I can only say 'very good question' and I think it must be a > mistake. All concepts are asabhaava and some realities such as space. > Time is a concept as I understand. > ---------------------------- > Larry: The only thing I could think of is maybe this means that some > dhammas without individual characteristics, such as the attainment of > cessation and _some_ concepts such as space and time, can be objects of > panna, which is here characterized as insight knowledge beginning with > knowledge of rise and fall. .... Just to point out, this is a quote of Nanamoli’s, not from a text. OK, I think it should say that some dhammas without individual characteristics (asabhaava-dhamma), such as the attainment of cessation and some ‘non-concretely produced matter’ (anipphannaruupa). The latter are realities and can be known but to quote from CMA p241. Guide to #4 (B.Bodhi): “they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter.” B.Bodhi continues to add that they are not paramattha dhammas, but I can’t find this in the commentary. I think it would be more accurate to say they are not paramattha dhammas *with sabhaava*, but they are listed among the asabhaava rupas, hence paramattha. Much as been written before about space, bodily and vocal intimation and the continuity, decay and impermanence of rupas as examples of these. Perhaps Htoo or Nina will confirm this. I won’t start on ‘time’. Unless it is referring directly to the three characteristics of material phenomena just mentioned, I understand it to be a concept. I’m not familiar with the extra note Nanamoli gives on this. Larry, I think there are always bound to be some errors and possibly different understandings reflected in translations and comments. it would be the same if we went through CMA notes or anything else. I doubt anyone else is going through this text with the same fine tooth-comb that we are;-) I had read that n68 and quoted from it many times on DSG in discussions on sabhaava, but never noticed that point til you raised it. When B.Bodhi was in Hong Kong, I gave him pages from discussions highlighting possible errors in the translation of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and especially in Soma’s introduction. I also pointed out keys parts of the commentary that were missing. His general response was that a very large quantity of this particular translation had been printed for free distribution and possibly parts of the commentary, such as one part about a parrot I recall, might have been left out for reasons relating to the readers’ susceptibility at the time of publication. He’s more interested to work on his new translations I think and rightly so. In any case, I don’t think anyone would change another writer’s own notes. There are a very few errors that have been raised here in Nyantiloka’s dictionary (often after very detailed discussions) and I’m keeping a bit of a note of them at the back of my copy, but unless ever asked, I’ll just let them be. Sarah ===== To summarise my vague understanding in progress here with a couple of amendments: parinipphanna (projected or directly knowable ) = only conditioned or ‘concretely produced’paramattha dhammas *with sabhaava* nipphanna (produced or experienced ) = paramattha dhammas, concepts and nirodhasamaapatti* NB nibbana is not parinipphanna or nipphanna. * see quote asabhaava rupas are anipphanna ruupa because they are not directly produced by kamma etc. ***** 24711 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Sarah: Sarah: " Much as been > written before about > space, bodily and vocal intimation and the > continuity, decay and > impermanence of rupas as examples of these." --------------------------------------------------- You post is very very interesting, Sarah! I could add that space, bodily and vocal intimations, etc are the 10 elements that are considered not real (anipphanannarupa), namely: 1. akasa - space Communication (viññatti) - 2. bodily language (kayaniññbatti) 3. vocal intimation (vagiviññatti) These two (2 and 3)are produced by mind. Mutable material qualities: 4. lightness (lahuta) 5. softness (muduta) 6. adaptability (kammaññata) These three are produced without kamma. Characteristics of material qualities (lakkhanarupa) 7. material productivity - beginning (upacaya) 8. continuity (santati) 9. decay (jarata) 10. impermanence (aniccata) So, one attentive reader can deduce that there are anipphanannarupa embodied with material qualities. Or better, there are lakkhanarupa that´s not real entities, like actions performed in a movie, for example! ------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: "Perhaps Htoo or Nina will confirm this. I won’t > start on ‘time’. Unless it > is referring directly to the three characteristics > of material phenomena > just mentioned, I understand it to be a concept. I’m > not familiar with the > extra note Nanamoli gives on this." ---------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact, the anipphanannarupa can be defined as a Niyaama that has the space (akasha- viññati) at a support for time, expressed as mutable material characteristics! There´s much more on your post!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24712 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intelligence or wisdom Hi Christine (on return), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > I guess I'm feeling frustrated at not understanding, or sometimes not > even being interested in, what others seem to understand so easily > and feel so enthusiastic about regarding the Dhamma. I read the > technical threads and the discussions between others and start to > feel a little discouraged. I used to think it was because of the > Pali - but it's not. ..... Just now as I wrote to Larry, I thought of your comments as I found myself getting into deep water;-) So what are the realities now while you’re catching up on these technical and non-technical posts? Whether it’s visible object, thinking, discouragement, joy, annoyance, confusion or whatever else, that’s all there is to be known and this ‘knowing’ is the only kind of ‘intelligence’ or ‘wisdom’ that matters in the slightest. Just one reality and then gone....Anatta;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24713 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:33am Subject: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? hi all, I just got the Pali Text Societies Pali english dictionary by T.W. Rhys Davids a few days ago and apparently is not in English alphabetical order. Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me or point me to a reference for the Pali alphabet order in English alpha. Gratitudes again to this entire group ! Peace and Metta, n () r i 24714 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/28/03 11:57:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------------ > >I *think* that what you are saying is > > > . . > > > >There arise, at differing times, and due to differing > >conditions, various *differing* hardness rupas. Any > >particular hardness rupa that arises carries with it a > >specific affective flavor - a specific degree and kind > >of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral "taste" which is a > >feature of that particular rupa, and may well differ > >from the vedanic flavor of otherwise-conditioned > >hardness rupas. > > > > > . . . > > > >Have I understood correctly what you mean, > > ---------------- > > That's about the way I understand it -- the 'flavour' is > inherent in the rupa-arammana. Rupas, such as hardness and > colour, must be either pleasant or unpleasant. I'm not > sure that this characteristic is actually conditioned by > kamma; I *think* that kamma simply determines which rupa > will be detected -- a pleasant one or an unpleasant one. > > The detection of the 'flavour' of a rupa is dependent on > contact (phassa). When the body-base contacts a tactile > rupa, phassa is strong enough for the flavour to be > experienced as either pleasant physical feeling or > unpleasant physical feeling -- never neutral. Whenever > body contact *seems* to be accompanied by neutral > physical feeling, that is due to our inadequate > awareness. > > When rupa contacts other sense bases, however, phassa is > not strong enough for this 'flavour' to be detected. > Therefore, eye, ear, nose or tongue-door consciousness is > always accompanied by neutral physical feeling. When > unpleasant physical feeling seems to accompany it -- for > example when we taste a too-strong curry -- it is not > tongue contact but body contact (with tactile object), > that is responsible. > > ---------- > >and, if so, > >does the Abhidhamma explicitly present the intrinsic > > >understanding? > ---------- > > I'm not good at providing references and my knowledge of > the Abhidhamma is all second hand. But I'm sure its > there. As I remember, Rob M also missed it on the first > reading, so it must be hard to find. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ One of the main things I have gained from our brief discussion on this issue is the self-correction I have made of a previously unrealized mistake I had been making. Ironically, my mistake was *contrary* to my usual phenomenalist take on things. The error, and I do think it was an error, was to informally think of rupas as self-sufficient in the following sense: I was, for example, thinking of hardness as a unitary, mind-independent rupa constituting *one* thing, and a separate appropriate mind-door vi~n~nana, conditioned to observe that rupa with a certain vedanic taste, and then these two separate phenomena coming together in contact. But, what I think is probably closer to the facts is that hardness is not a single rupa, but is a category of rupas; in any context, a variety of conditions, including one's own kamma, create the potential for the arising/actualization of a *particular* hardness-rupa to be experienced with characteristics, including type and degree of vedanic taste, specific to that hardness-rupa but not necessarily to others. Once certain conditions, arise, the rupa, as a specific potential arammana, arises, and when and if the necessary full complement of conditions has finally arisen, the rupa is actualized by contact. The main point here, putting aside the potentiality-actuality business, which may be problematical or at least debatable, is that there are, even for a single namarupic stream, different hardness rupas that arise, with differing characteristics, and not just the "same" hardness rupa arising at different times and perceived differently at different times. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24715 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Dear Nori: Nori: " Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me or > point me to a > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English > alpha. > > Gratitudes again to this entire group !" ---------------------------------------------------- Nori, you can find the original alphabetical transliteration of T.W. Rhys-Davies at http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit00.jpg http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit01.jpg http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit02.jpg http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit03.jpg He, and other scholars,had used three tipes of "Missionary Alphabet" to transliterate Sanskrit, Pali, Arabic and Pahlavi. Since this classification is still in use, but with corrections, you must take a look also on "Coding Standards" at http://www.sacred-texts.com/stand.htm. ( Wow, Nori! How can I get a copy of T.W. Rhys-Davies´work ? At Amazon´s ?) Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24716 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/29/03 2:11:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >but I *am* saying that this little > >back &forth between us has added to my appreciation of > >abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly > >study the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > It's kind of you to say so. I only hope what I told you was > right! If it wasn't, someone will say so soon enough. I > won't look at the messages till I get back from Cooran -- no > sense in spoiling my weekend :-) > > Ken H > ============================ Don't worry about that. What you said may be "right" or "wrong". What I have thought about it may also be "right" or "wrong". We'll both just keep looking, investigating, studying, and keeping on with our own programs of practice as we interpret the Dhamma to teach and doing the best we can. Meanwhile, with or without errors on the part of either of us, I have been (and continue to be) benefiting from our discussion. I hope it is of some use to you as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24717 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: Intelligence or wisdom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Do intelligence and wisdom correlate in any way? Does lack of > intelligence mean that panna cannot arise? I wonder if there are > different sorts of intelligence, or if intelligence fluctuates within > the same person. Hi Christine (and others on this thread), I think you ask a very good question and raise an important point. No, I don't believe that wisdom has anything to do with intelligence. The Buddha said nothing about intelligence being a requirement for enlightenment. After all, just what type of intelligence would be required? According to Howard Gardner, noted social scientist, there are in fact eight different types of intelligences which we all have to varying degrees: Verbal- Linguistic, Math-Logic, Spatial, Bodily-Kinesthetic, Musical, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, and Naturalist. Which one is needed most to lead to wisdom? In simple terms, none of them. In the Sonadanda Sutta, The Qualities of a True Brahmin, the Buddha explains very simply how an arahant comes to be, "A disciple goes forth and practices the moralities; he guards the sense-doors, etc. That, Brahmin, is morality. He attains the four jhanas; he attains various insights, and the cessation of the corruptions. Thus he develops wisdom. That, Brahmin, is wisdom." Thus the Buddha put into a nutshell, without elaboration, how to have wisdom: morality and meditation. Seems relatively simple to me. Therefore, I don't see how such detailed discussions of nama and rupa, using archaic Pali terms, is truly necessary for panna to arise (but, let`s face facts, some people need them to feel safe). It appears to me that you are also coming to this realization. Good for you. Don't blame yourself or distrust your instincts. I think they are spot on! Metta, James 24718 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Hi Jim, Suan, Nori & All, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Suan and all, > Thank-you for thinking of this. Although you seem to stand by the > spelling 'nikkhama' in your response to Christine, don't you think it > should be 'nekkhamma' as one of the ten paaramiitas (see under > 'paaramii' in PED)? Anyway, it's a Pali term I'm not too familiar > with, and one which I would have to look into. Can you point to a good > Pali text for further study? ..... Look f/w to more from Suan on this - enjoying your responses on this thread. Just butting in here briefly as I had pulled out the Rhys Davids dict prompted by Nori’s qu - surprised that there is no Pali alphabet at the beginning.... Like Jim, I was only familiar with ‘nekkhama’ p.377, Nori but also find ‘nikkhama’ p.353 with a brief entry, (more for nikkhamati - to go forth, leave the household life behind' etc). So, everyone’s right;-) "Nekkhama: [formally a derivation fr nikhamma by its semantic affinity to nikkhanta, in which the metaphorical sense has entirely superseded the literal one........In any case the connection with kaama is pre-eminently felt in the connotation of n. as shown in var. passages" etc -lots of refs. Too late and tired to type more, but would be glad Jim if you look at these past posts on nekkhama with many textual references and give any comments: Nekkhama (Renunciation) 13256, 14766, 15013, 15207, 15055, 23426, 23481 Suan may have more references he likes for nikkhamati - there seem from the dict to be lots in the Jatakas and a few others listed. Jim, I’ll get back later on our other related thread and I’m sure we’ll be hearing more after the Cooran mob return as well;-) Nori, Jim and Suan are the much bettert people to guide you with your Pali dict qus. Until you’re more familiar with the alphabet, you may find it helpful to either write a key at the front of the dict: A p.1 AA p.92 etc or, as I did, to put narrow coloured post-it tabs marking the letters at the tops of the pages. (Anything to help...) Sooner or later you find out that it saves a lot of time to learn the alphabet which apart from one or two odd-bods is very logical and based on the phonetic sound and place of expression with tongue and teeth. So you have to learn it by by pronouncing the sounds, I think... a, aa, i, ii, u, uu, e, k, kh, g, gh etc.... Slowly it gets easier....I still sometimes lose or mix up the place of the ~n or n as I just did. Jim or Suan, pls let me know if I’m confusing him. Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, you may have to order this dict from PTS (see links for their website and details). I like it and find it's quite big enough for me and my needs;-) ====== 24719 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intelligence or wisdom Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Therefore, I don't see how such detailed discussions of nama and > rupa, using archaic Pali terms, is truly necessary for panna to arise > (but, let`s face facts, some people need them to feel safe). .... This must be a very insecure group...;-) Anyway, it's true James that your Egypt diary installments and other reflections are a good break for us all after dissecting those namas and rupas. Looking forward to No3 (and you know I mean it!!). Meanwhile, off for some nice safe dreams after analysing the Pali dictionary;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24720 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan > Dear Mike, > op 28-08-2003 06:30 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > . So 'result' > > always and only refers (in this sort of context) to vipaaka? And vipaaka > > always and only refers to rebirth? > I should add something: kusala jhanacitta produces result only in the next > life (provided the jhana does not decline) in the form of: > rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and dying-consciousness. > M:Is this ever applicable to kha.nika > > rebirth? > N: you mean momentary birth of each citta? Yes, I did. I do realize that 'result' of kusala jhaanacitta in the sense of rebirth produces result only in the next life. So my question should have been, 'does 'result' refer only to future lives? Are there no 'results' that are not future rebirths? Thanks again, mike 24721 From: Nanapalo Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Icaro, anumodana visited www.buddhistonline.com In the website, Dhamma Study Group Bogor is only involved in discussion forum, question and answer together with Bhikkhu Uttamo from Sangha Theravada Indonesia and The DSGBogor put some articles concerning Abhidhamma weekly morning break discussion at our member's house. warm regards, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: "icaro franca" To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > Dear Nina: > > Nina: " Dear Icaro, > > I really rejoice at this news. I did not know they > > had a webside, since I am > > not a webgoer. > > I wish they would transl some of their messages for > > us. > > Nina." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I think that this news is very inspiring! > The high level of discussions are paramount! As > Connie said at other message, a day without reading > dsg news is a day missing!!!!!! > (taking the indonesian phrasebook)about Bogor Group > Online, you will find them at > > http://www.buddhistonline.com/ > > Selamat pagi, Ibu Van Gorkon! > Nama saya Ícaro. Saya dari Brazil, Orang Brazil. > Saya merasa senang!!!! > > HAHAH!!! That´s just the way I begun learning > japanese and French!!! Unfortunately there´s not a > Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op > > icarofranca@y...: > > > > > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group > > > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but > > seemed > > > to me that the level of discussions over there is > > very > > > high. > > 24722 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > Unfortunately there´s not a > Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! What a great idea--something that would give an idiomatic and non-academic foot in the door to grammar, vocabulary, endings etc.--that would be priceless, I think, at least for boneheads like myself. Wish I had the time (not to mention the skill). mike 24723 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:45am Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Jim, Sarah, Christine, and all How are you? Jim wrote: "Thank-you for thinking of this. Although you seem to stand by the spelling 'nikkhama' in your response to Christine, don't you think it should be 'nekkhamma' as one of the ten paaramiitas (see under 'paaramii' in PED)? Anyway, it's a Pali term I'm not too familiar with, and one which I would have to look into. Can you point to a good Pali text for further study?" Thank you, Jim, for your correction. Yes, the correct spelling is nekkhamma, not nikkhama, nor nikkhamma when we refer to the ten perfections /fulfilments (dasa paaramiis). My mistake seems to have come from the habit of writing something as one pronounced it with a loose articulation. I completely forgot the term "nekkhamma" when I first wrote "nikkhama" to refer to this paaramii, as well as when I replied to Christine. This forgetfulness was exacerbated by looking up the dictionary and finding nikkhama and nikkhamati with the verbal root meanings for nekkhamma. There are, of course, many Pali texts for nikkhama and nikkhamma, but with meanings different from the intended meaning of paaramii. Nikkhama! Get out! (Nikkhama, Paapima) Section 506, Muulapa.n.naasa Pali, Majjhimanikaaya. Nikkhamma - after getting out. (Atha kho bhagavaa vihaaraa nikkhamma) Section 287, Siilakkhandavagga Pali, Diighanikaaya. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 24724 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:03am Subject: email problem Hi All, Sorry to use the list to announce this, but its easier for me. I had decided to start using another address, 'sukinder@k...' that I had but never used, so when I got it running, I immediately received around 50 messages dating as far back as Dec 2001. I came to know then, where all the mails I was supposed to have received but didn't, were. The problem seem to be connected to the fact that 'sukin@k...' uses the same server as this other address. It is quite embarrassing since some of them should have been replied to. So Nina, Sarah, Christine, Htoo, Dave and especially Mike, I apologize for any akusala aroused. Now I have decided to use both address, so hopefully there will be no problems of this sort in the future. Your patience is appreciated. Metta, Sukin. 24725 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Mike: Mike: "What a great idea--something that would give an > idiomatic and non-academic > foot in the door to grammar, vocabulary, endings > etc.--that would be > priceless, I think, at least for boneheads like > myself. Wish I had the time > (not to mention the skill)." ----------------------------------------------------- Well, Mike... I think that The Lonely Planet, Berlitz, Assimil, &c, hardly will copy with the idea of a Pali Phrasebook, Pali Sans Penne, Pali for travellers (!!!)and so on. But the hard work of pals like Ong Yong Peng at the Pali Group is providing us with plenty of material and exercises. As soon as I get a new printer, I will put all this material on ink, paper and binding... and I would advise to all in this group to make the same! It´s worthy material!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro P.S.: "Pali for Travelleres"...indeed... > > mike ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24726 From: Elias Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:46am Subject: personal parents all, this is more a personal problem. what i've seen and heard my parents (mom and stephfather), are very deluded. they have been formed by the society, mostly do what culture and tradition says. and also what we in buddhism call is in ignorance. They as the normal untrained human being do, think that objects outside the midn controlls the mind, only my mom knows that i want to ebcome a monk, she accepts it, but is really against it. Also she thinks it's really stupid to read books about buddhism etc, because you can belive on things without reading, simply, she have mostly never heard of buddhism and can't understand it. Also both my parents thinks in ways of rascism. So for me it's really hard, the best i think for me is to be very silent, and also in away avoid to be with my parents much. can you tell me some advice, and maybe how is it for you? /Elias 24727 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Nanapalo! Terima Kasih !!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------- -- Nanapalo wrote: > Dear Icaro, > anumodana visited www.buddhistonline.com > In the website, Dhamma Study Group Bogor is only > involved in discussion > forum, question and answer together with Bhikkhu > Uttamo from Sangha > Theravada Indonesia and The DSGBogor put some > articles concerning > Abhidhamma weekly morning break discussion at our > member's house. > > warm regards, > selamat rodjali > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "icaro franca" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 4:58 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > > > > Dear Nina: > > > > Nina: " Dear Icaro, > > > I really rejoice at this news. I did not know > they > > > had a webside, since I am > > > not a webgoer. > > > I wish they would transl some of their messages > for > > > us. > > > Nina." > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I think that this news is very inspiring! > > The high level of discussions are paramount! As > > Connie said at other message, a day without > reading > > dsg news is a day missing!!!!!! > > (taking the indonesian phrasebook)about Bogor > Group > > Online, you will find them at > > > > http://www.buddhistonline.com/ > > > > Selamat pagi, Ibu Van Gorkon! > > Nama saya Ícaro. Saya dari Brazil, Orang > Brazil. > > Saya merasa senang!!!! > > > > HAHAH!!! That´s just the way I begun learning > > japanese and French!!! Unfortunately there´s not a > > Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op > > > icarofranca@y...: > > > > > > > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor > Group > > > > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but > > > seemed > > > > to me that the level of discussions over there > is > > > very > > > > high. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24728 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] personal parents Elias, You have to go no further than the life story of Sariputta , Buddha's chief disciple. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html ) He also had his share of problems with the parents. His mom was particularly unsupportive, even after Sariputta attained enlightenment. But what happened in the end was it was exposed that even that mom did have the accumulations to be a stream-enterer. This doesnt mean that we have to 'shove in' our beliefs to our parents (or loved ones) . But it may mean that other people will have their own progress paths (at their own pace) and one can help others (to accelerate the pace) when he/she has enough ability to help him/herself. Regards, gayan ----- Original Message ----- From: Elias To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 11:46 AM Subject: [dsg] personal parents all, this is more a personal problem. what i've seen and heard my parents (mom and stephfather), are very deluded. they have been formed by the society, mostly do what culture and tradition says. and also what we in buddhism call is in ignorance. They as the normal untrained human being do, think that objects outside the midn controlls the mind, only my mom knows that i want to ebcome a monk, she accepts it, but is really against it. Also she thinks it's really stupid to read books about buddhism etc, because you can belive on things without reading, simply, she have mostly never heard of buddhism and can't understand it. Also both my parents thinks in ways of rascism. So for me it's really hard, the best i think for me is to be very silent, and also in away avoid to be with my parents much. can you tell me some advice, and maybe how is it for you? /Elias 24729 From: suzakico Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:07am Subject: Boehme and Myokonin (Pure land) FYI, here is a research I did on the subject: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/boehmeandmyokonin.html In spite of their religious background, their spiritual discovery seems to be stunningly similar in my eyes. This is more about Boehme: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/boehme.html And, for Myokonin: http://www.geocities.co.jp/NatureLand/7243/myokoninjapaneseandenglish .html Good day, and good life! Kio 24730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend. Dear Christine, wonderful, my thoughts are with you all. I like to hear too about the outward circumstances. And of course your discussions. You have eminent people in your circle. Have a fruitful weekend, Nina. op 28-08-2003 22:19 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > I'm taking a brief leave of absence (two or three days) from dsg for > the Cooran Get-together. 24731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Dear Larry and Sarah, Larry, this is very thoughtful. It does not matter if you go on, because all the next paras in Vis text explain what was in short about the divisions of two- fold, threefold, etc. and the Co goes along with it. It all fits very well. For myself, I never know what happens. When sentences become too difficult I may skip things. But then I see something captivating when reading on and I continue. It has become my bedside litterature. Sarah: sabhaava dhamma: yes, with its own distinct nature or characteristic. When it is plural, I find natures strange, what to do. And sometimes I avoid characteristics when there is this word lakkhana in the same sentence. Stilted language! I may translate it differently in different contexts. Essence: no, Icaro does not like this either. Nina op 29-08-2003 00:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: >> I was going to pick up the pace a little but if you are going to > translate the entire subcommentary I won't. 24732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:bootcamp diary. op 29-08-2003 00:28 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > Sometimes I look at the luggage I intend to carry > on to travel N: Do not forget paper and pencil, to scribble a bootcamp diary. Perhaps it would be interesting to jot down which kinds of vipakas through which sense-doors (one at a time) and how did the cittas with hetu react to those impressions? Maybe the food tasted very good, but there was bodily pain. When there is patience there is kusala citta. I find I have patience for certain objects but not for others. When my father critizes the music I play for him I lose my patience.I try so hard and then he does not like it. Fortunately his dog likes baroque music. Nina. 24733 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:bootcamp diary. Dear Nina: Nina: "Do not forget paper and pencil, to scribble a > bootcamp diary. Perhaps it > would be interesting to jot down which kinds of > vipakas through which > sense-doors (one at a time) and how did the cittas > with hetu react to those > impressions? > Maybe the food tasted very good, but there was > bodily pain. When there is > patience there is kusala citta." ------------------------------------------------------ Good idea! This method of "mental annotation" on casual events is very good to develop Satipatthana. I can use free time on boot camp to keep a registry of the linkage of impressions that reach sense-doors, how they reage and take a definite nama-rupa on my mind. Original Dependence can be a good analogy to these processes! Anyway, Nina, you are the master of applications of Dhamma at diary life!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Nina: "I find I have > patience for certain objects > but not for others. When my father critizes the > music I play for him I lose > my patience.I try so hard and then he does not like > it. Fortunately his dog > likes baroque music." --------------------------------------------------- Patience, patience... toujours le patience! The only things I will miss on boot camp are the DSG news and the Cartoon Network...hahahahahahahah!!!! But I will try send to you all my dhamma diary! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24734 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? hi icaro, Thank you for the references; I will check them out. The re-issue copy of the original PTS Pali-English dictionary (pub. in 1921) is available from Oxford in the UK, and also in the US: Agents In North America (For all Trade & Non-Member Customers in Canada and the USA) Pariyatti Book Service P.O. Box 15926 Seattle, WA 98115 USA Tel: +1 (206) 522-8175 Fax: +1 (206) 522-8295 E-mail: sales@v... www.vrpa.com Trade Distributors LAVIS MARKETING 73 Lime Walk Headington Oxford OX3 7AD Tel: (01865) 767575 Fax: +44 1865 750079 e-mail: orders@l... They in fact, carry the entire Pali cannon from the Pali Text Society, I think both in Pali and also translated into english; I am not sure but I think they are among the best translations. peace and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Nori: > Nori: " Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me > or > > point me to a > > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English > > alpha. > > > > Gratitudes again to this entire group !" > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Nori, you can find the original alphabetical > transliteration of T.W. Rhys-Davies at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit00.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit01.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit02.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit03.jpg > > He, and other scholars,had used three tipes of > "Missionary Alphabet" to transliterate Sanskrit, Pali, > Arabic and Pahlavi. Since this classification is still > in use, but with corrections, you must take a look > also on "Coding Standards" at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/stand.htm. > > ( Wow, Nori! How can I get a copy of T.W. > Rhys-Davies´work ? At Amazon´s ?) > > Mettaya, Ícaro > ===== 24735 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Nori, By lust I mean sensual desire and passion. Regarding the question "how is lust cut off?" I think the following discourse is relevant: Samyutta Nikaya VIII.4 Ananda Sutta Ananda (Instructions to Vangisa) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn08-004.html Regarding the question "what is it that needs to be cut off ?" I would think it is craving that needs to be cut off... Peace, Victor 24736 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) Elias wrote: > The human is very > egoistic, babies are born because egoism, desire. Hi elias, There is much truth to what you say. This reminds me of when I once saw, on some Nature program on television, I think it was, sea horses mating. I was really shocked to see this: when they mate, the penis goes in, (and a strange looking penis it is), and before it ejaculates sperm into its mate, the penis goes deep into its mates interior and begins to sweep out any existing sperm from its insides, making a very large effort to clean out any sperm that might have resided in it from a prior seahorse that mated with it; after all the prior sperm was cleaned out then it would deposit its own sperm. This goes to show that the seahorses are not active in sex just in order to reproduce its race or out for sensual pleasure; There is a huge egoistic element to it. I do not like to think this is always the case with humans. ... just thought I'd share that. peace, nori 24737 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Incipient Recruit Franca: ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! I couldn't agree more--Yong Peng's list is priceless (especially Nina's contributions!). mike 24738 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Passivity in Buddhism hi Ray, all, me: > Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but > instead due to physical conditions. > > Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. > money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) > > The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case > (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to > alleviate the condition! Ray: I again disagree, the majority of the people in the world are not suffering from starving, but suffering because they cannot get what they want, cannot kept what they get, what they don't want, etc. It is easy to reply this, living in a place (in my case the USA) which has all the basic requirements for life: food, water, shelter, medicine, absence of an active threatening war (present here), disease, etc. I cannot say for sure, i.e. whether most people in this world suffer from a lack of life sustenance since I have not done a census on what people suffer from, but this much I can say: Here I and many others sit with most of our efforts focused on liberating ourselves from suffering. The suffering which most of us are afflicted with, has nothing to do with the lack of basic requirements for life; most or all of us have them. We suffer from more frivolous things. And so, here we are, trying to liberate ourselves from the suffering of frivolous things, while there exist people out there suffering from the lack of the basic things that are necessary for life. Knowing this, it is difficult to believe what I do (my practice) is virtuous at times. There are those out there, however few, who are selfless, sacrificing their own lives to go out there (even going out of their way to fly out to another country) to try and relieve these basic necessary physical conditions, which cause people great suffering, putting their own frivolous sufferings aside. I don't know if this is natural to do (or founded on wholesome intention/mind) but it makes me wonder, what indeed is right action ? Enough has been said on this topic so I will not burden anyone with it any further. Thanks for all the great comments. peace and metta, nori 24739 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi icaro (or anyone with info), Thanks again for the references. While these pages describe the transliteration for the letters of the various alphabets, it does not really give any order of the alphabets as they are ordered in this dictionary (in english alpha). If anyone has any idea about how they are ordered, it would greatly be appreciated. thanks, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Nori: > Nori: " Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me > or > > point me to a > > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English > > alpha. > > > > Gratitudes again to this entire group !" > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Nori, you can find the original alphabetical > transliteration of T.W. Rhys-Davies at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit00.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit01.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit02.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit03.jpg > snip ... 24740 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi Nori, I don't think there is a fixed order but an "accepted" order is as follows: a, aa, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, ~n, .t, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, h I copied this out of a glossary. I'm not sure if it follows PTS. Corrections welcome. Larry 24741 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi Larry, Yes, thank you, that is right on point. ... except for some reason there is no words with aa. Where did you get this ? Also, do you understand the logic behind the order? thanks again, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I don't think there is a fixed order but an "accepted" order is as > follows: > > a, aa, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, ~n, .t, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, > h > > I copied this out of a glossary. I'm not sure if it follows PTS. > Corrections welcome. > > Larry 24742 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 10 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 10. 3. In the second dyad, that "subject to cankers" is that which is the object of cankers. That "free from cankers" is not their object. This dyad is the same in meaning as the mundane and supramundane. The same method applies to the dyads 'subject to cankers and free from cankers, associated with cankers and dissociated from cankers' (Dhs. p.3), and so on. So it is of two kinds as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on. 24743 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi Nori, aa is long a. a with a line over it. Larry ------------------------------ N: for some reason there is no words with aa. 24744 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 From Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm ásava: (lit: influxes), 'cankers', taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases. There is a list of four (as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.): the canker of sense-desire (kámásava), of (desiring eternal) existence (bhavásava), of (wrong) views (ditthásava), and of ignorance (avijjásava). A list of three, omitting the canker of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas, e.g. in M. 2, M. 9, D. 33; A. III, 59, 67; A. VI, 63. - In Vibh. (Khuddakavatthu Vibh.) both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of 'floods' (ogha) and 'yokes' (yoga). Through the path of Stream-Entry, the canker of views is destroyed; through the path of Non-Returning, the canker of sense-desire; through the path of Arahatship, the cankers of existence and ignorance. M. 2 shows how to overcome the cankers, namely, through insight, sense-control, avoidance, wise use of the necessities of life, etc. For a commentarial exposition, see Atthasálini Tr. I, p. 63f: II, pp. 475ff. Khínásava, 'one whose cankers are destroyed', or 'one who is canker-free', is a name for the Arahat or Holy One. The state of Arahatship is frequently called ásavakkhaya, 'the destruction of the cankers'. Suttas concluding with the attainment of Arahatship by the listeners, often end with the words: "During this utterance, the hearts of the Bhikkhus were freed from the cankers through clinging no more" (anupádáya ásavehi cittáni vimuccimsú'ti). 24745 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi all, As "subject to cankers and not subject to cankers" is the same as "mundane and supramundane", I take this to mean all mundane panna of everyone except arahants is subject to cankers and all supramundane panna arising in the 4 path moments and 4 path fruitions is not subject to cankers. An arahant's panna is not subject to cankers whether mundane or supramundane. Larry ------------------------ "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 10. 3. In the second dyad, that "subject to cankers" is that which is the object of cankers. That "free from cankers" is not their object. This dyad is the same in meaning as the mundane and supramundane. The same method applies to the dyads 'subject to cankers and free from cankers, associated with cankers and dissociated from cankers' (Dhs. p.3), and so on. So it is of two kinds as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on. 24746 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Sarah: "A name doesn't exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over again." Hi Sarah, I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. They are as real as feelings, mental images (meanings), affections, and intentions. They certainly arise with a beginning, middle and end. It is true that sometimes names are mistaken for their referent, the named. More often meanings are misunderstood as their referent. Because names and meanings are remembered they give the impression of permanence. Present experience using more advanced methods of knowing (beyond sanna) is the way to combat the tyranny of memory. Mistaking the impermanent as permanent is the most basic error as far as the Buddha is concerned. Mistakes exist. They are called wrong view. There is no need to deny the existence of names here. What's the point? Larry 24747 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Icaro, > Well, Mike... I think that The Lonely Planet, > Berlitz, Assimil, &c, hardly will copy with the idea > of a Pali Phrasebook, Pali Sans Penne, Pali for > travellers (!!!)and so on. I like you very much, so I am going to suggest you something which I think is going to be useful to you. If you must learn one new language, make it Thai. I know that it isn't easy since it doesn't use Roman script, but then again you do not have to learn to write, just hear and understand. In anycase, a man of great intelligence such as you, would not see this as a problem at all, no?! Why this suggestion? So that I can then send you hundreds of hours of Dhamma talk by K. Sujin on MP3. For me they are most the precious sound in the world. If on the other hand you do not feel like it, I could send you as a New Years gift, a few tapes I collected before discovering Abhidhamma. They are by some Western Buddhists of both Theravada and Mahayana tradition. I would not give these to others for the reason that I am givng them what I consider to be miccha ditthi, but I think that you are above these negative influence and will take out only what is useful and good, leaving out the rest. ;-) So let me know what you prefer!! Metta, Sukin. 24748 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) hi sarah, I asked mike n. this also, and I think I can predict the answer, but i figured i'd ask. What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off alms with a small backpack and tent (moving from place to place; as opposed to a monastery)? Would it be any more conducive to the ending of dukkha (than living as a householder in a busy city with a job with long hours) ? metta, nori 24749 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Mail Bouncing Hi, all - I just tried twice to send a reply to Larry's recent post to Sarah about names, and each time it came back as undeliverable. The message I got back included started as follows: ********************** The original message was received at Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:01:51 -0400 (EDT) from root@localhost ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com.: >>> DATA <<< 554 this message violates our delivery policy which disallows Bcc's (#5.7.1) 554 ... Service unavailable *************************** Ideas, anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24750 From: upasaka_howard Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - I'm trying to reply this time from the web site. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah: "A name doesn't exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and > satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are > taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the > characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct > natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over > again." > > Hi Sarah, > > I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. They are as real as > feelings, mental images (meanings), affections, and intentions. They > certainly arise with a beginning, middle and end. It is true that > sometimes names are mistaken for their referent, the named. More often > meanings are misunderstood as their referent. Because names and meanings > are remembered they give the impression of permanence. Present > experience using more advanced methods of knowing (beyond sanna) is the > way to combat the tyranny of memory. Mistaking the impermanent as > permanent is the most basic error as far as the Buddha is concerned. > Mistakes exist. They are called wrong view. There is no need to deny the > existence of names here. What's the point? > > Larry ============================ I think that you are right in a sense and wrong in a sense, but mostly wrong. ;-) [Sorry!] Take the name 'tree'. In what sense are you right when you say that the name 'tree' exists? Well, there are certain sounds that have common acoustical features, and whenever we utter one of them we *say* that we have just used the name 'tree'. Each such utterance exists, though, even then, it is likely not a single paramattha dhamma, but, rather a structured sequence of paramattha dhammas summed up as a percept. But, and here is where I think you are wrong, each such utterance is *not* a name. The NAME 'tree' is pure concept, an abstraction; there is the thought (concept) of the name 'tree', and there are the utterances with beginnings, middles, and ends that are subsumed by that concept of the name 'tree', but the alleged name 'tree', per se, is not to be found anywhere - only sounds (and scribbles on paper) will be found, and, these, in fact, are also mental constructs. It is mere convention to speak of names, just as it is mere convention to speak of cars and trees and Buddhist e-mail groups. Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24751 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - Trying a third time to reply: In a message dated 8/29/03 10:08:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Sarah: "A name doesn't exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and > satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are > taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the > characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct > natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over > again." > > Hi Sarah, > > I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. They are as real as > feelings, mental images (meanings), affections, and intentions. They > certainly arise with a beginning, middle and end. It is true that > sometimes names are mistaken for their referent, the named. More often > meanings are misunderstood as their referent. Because names and meanings > are remembered they give the impression of permanence. Present > experience using more advanced methods of knowing (beyond sanna) is the > way to combat the tyranny of memory. Mistaking the impermanent as > permanent is the most basic error as far as the Buddha is concerned. > Mistakes exist. They are called wrong view. There is no need to deny the > existence of names here. What's the point? > > Larry > ============================ I think that you are right in a sense and wrong in a sense, but mostly wrong. ;-) [Sorry!] Take the name 'tree'. In what sense are you right when you say that the name 'tree' exists? Well, there are certain sounds that have common acoustical features, and whenever we utter one of them we *say* that we have just used the name 'tree'. Each such utterance exists, though, even then, it is likely not a single paramattha dhamma, but, rather a structured sequence of paramattha dhammas summed up as a percept. But, and here is where I think you are wrong, each such utterance is *not* a name. The NAME 'tree' is pure concept, an abstraction; there is the thought (concept) of the name 'tree', and there are the utterances with beginnings, middles, and ends that are subsumed by that concept of the name 'tree', but the alleged name 'tree', per se, is not to be found anywhere - only sounds (and scribbles on paper) will be found, and, these, in fact, are also mental constructs. It is mere convention to speak of names, just as it is mere convention to speak of cars and trees and Buddhist e-mail groups. Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24752 From: Elias Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) all, when a mother so borns her son, thoughs arise not as follow: "this human being now have the oppertunity to live as a human being and have the oppertuinty to train the mind". but, thoughs arise as follows: "my child will be the way i want it as, it's my baby-boy who i will desire for my whole life." A human is born because desire, the mother simply wants a son, not to born a human being for its welfare. /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Elias wrote: > > > The human is very > > egoistic, babies are born because egoism, desire. > > > Hi elias, > > There is much truth to what you say. This reminds me of when I once > saw, on some Nature program on television, I think it was, sea horses > mating. I was really shocked to see this: when they mate, the penis > goes in, (and a strange looking penis it is), and before it > ejaculates sperm into its mate, the penis goes deep into its mates > interior and begins to sweep out any existing sperm from its insides, > making a very large effort to clean out any sperm that might have > resided in it from a prior seahorse that mated with it; after all the > prior sperm was cleaned out then it would deposit its own sperm. > > This goes to show that the seahorses are not active in sex just in > order to reproduce its race or out for sensual pleasure; There is a > huge egoistic element to it. I do not like to think this is always > the case with humans. > > ... just thought I'd share that. > > > peace, > nori 24753 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Sukin (& Icaro). --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > > I like you very much, so I am going to suggest you something which I > think is going to be useful to you. If you must learn one new > language, make it Thai. I know that it isn't easy since it doesn't > use Roman script, but then again you do not have to learn to write, > just hear and understand. In anycase, a man of great intelligence > such as you, would not see this as a problem at all, no?! > Why this suggestion? So that I can then send you hundreds of hours > of Dhamma talk by K. Sujin on MP3. For me they are most the precious > sound in the world. ..... While you're waiting for Icaro to catch up with Thai, why not send him just one or two English MP3s of discussion with KS? Even though they're not edited like the Thai, I think Icaro with his Pali knowledge could appreciate them. Mike is enjoying the Kaeng Krajan set, so perhaps that and the India set? Unfortunately, I don't think you can make it in time for bootcamp and his night-time listening. ..... > If on the other hand you do not feel like it, I could send you as a > New Years gift, a few tapes I collected before discovering > Abhidhamma. > They are by some Western Buddhists of both Theravada and Mahayana > tradition. I would not give these to others for the reason that I am > givng them what I consider to be miccha ditthi, ..... If one considers something to be miccha ditthi, could it be considered as a gift? Still, I know it's a kind intention and maybe there are parts you consider as samma ditthi too. .... >but I think that you > are above these negative influence and will take out only what is > useful and good, leaving out the rest. ;-) .... Only a sotapanna is beyond the negative influence of miccha ditthi for sure, I think. Anything can happen meanwhile by conditions..... Glad you've found all your lost mail, Sukin. Perhaps it will help prompt Mike to send all his great reminders on list for us all - here it all gets preserved and recycled;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 24754 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Icaro: they are realities, paramattha dhammas, but they are not concrete matter. Also lakkhanarupas, which are characteristics of rupas, not concrete matter, are classified as rupas. There are 28 rupa paramattha dhammas in all. Nina. op 29-08-2003 12:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > I could > add that space, bodily and vocal intimations, etc are > the 10 elements that are considered not real > (anipphanannarupa), namely: > > 1. akasa - space, etc.... 24755 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pali Dear Icaro, Could you send this message also to Pali yahoo, it will encourage Yong Peng and others, Nina. op 29-08-2003 17:46 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > But the hard work of pals like Ong Yong Peng at > the Pali Group is providing us with plenty of material > and exercises. As soon as I get a new printer, I will > put all this material on ink, paper and binding... > and I would advise to all in this group to make the > same! > It´s worthy material!!!! 24756 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Dear Nori, No problem. I just went over each letter and in front I wrote down say, letter a: page number where it starts. So for each letter. A nice quick way to find your way in the dict. I did the same for my Thai. This is again a different order.Also for the Buddhadatta dct which is small and very handy to look up things very quickly. Nina. op 29-08-2003 12:33 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > hi all, > > I just got the Pali Text Societies Pali english dictionary by T.W. > Rhys Davids a few days ago and apparently is not in English > alphabetical order. > > Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me or point me to a > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English alpha. > > Gratitudes again to this entire group ! > > > Peace and Metta, > > n () r i 24757 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Sarah: sabhaava dhamma: yes, with its own distinct nature or > characteristic. > When it is plural, I find natures strange, what to do. And sometimes I > avoid > characteristics when there is this word lakkhana in the same sentence. > Stilted language! I may translate it differently in different contexts. > Essence: no, Icaro does not like this either. ..... A lot of people have trouble with sabhaava and particularly with indiv essence, esp. those who have come from a Mahayana background I think. I had long discussions with Howard on this. Suggestions: -distinct nature. Mostly we can avoid pl and say 'with their own distinct nature'. - distinct quality. Distinct qualities no prob. - specific nature/quality - particular nature/quality -individual quality perhaps if we want it to be clear that it's referring to sabhaava and keep closer to standard transl, but individual may sound suspect again. Mike or Howard would be able to give good feedback too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24758 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:48am Subject: Brahmajala Sutta- dhamma Dear Nina, Just quoting from the Brahmajala sutta reminded me that in the comy and subcomy to it, there are a lot of details on meanings of 'dhamma', p.121 BB transl. However, at a quick look I think you've covered all these meanings in your series and the passages may even be the same as ones you've quoted from elsewhere. Very similar to the comy to the Mulapariyaya sutta from memory. Metta, Sarah ===== 24759 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:59am Subject: Re: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding -- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear eddie, > I agree about science and dhamma. Could you give > more details about the 'samsara and rebirth games' question. What is it you want answered? > RobertK Sorry for the delay, by 'samsara and rebirth games' question, I mean why all these 'samsara and rebirth cycles'? I understand that we all (in all levels of existence) are entities going through these cycles, which is beginingless and endless. So are the world cycles. Thanks, Eddie. 24760 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 29-08-2003 16:31 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > So my question should > have been, 'does 'result' refer only to future lives? Are there no > 'results' that are not future rebirths? N: If we take result in the sense of vipaka: as far as I understand no, there are not. Nina. 24761 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Hi Mike (& Nina), --- "m. nease" wrote: > KS replied that there are two aspects of > bhava-ta.nhaa, with sassata-di.t.thi and without sassata-di.t.thi. [...] S:i.e attachment to becoming with or without wrong view. ..... Nina wrote: "Sassata di.t.thi: see Buddhist dict: belief in a soul that is lasting, forever. But there are many degrees of ditthi. Sassata seems to me an extreme form." ..... M:> I'd also like to hear more about sassata-di.t.thi. In conventional speech I think this is usually taken just to refer to the eternalist view. In the context > of abhidhamma, does this also refer to the view that anything lasts at all (beyond one kha.na)? [...] ..... I think the understanding is the same in the Abhidhamma and Suttanta. I understand eternalist views are inherently wrapped up in an idea of ‘self’ or identity in the ‘uninterrupted continuum’ that lasts for ever or even for two moments. Let me quote with details rather than speculate: ***** First straight from the Sammohavinodanii (commentary to the Vibhanga, 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka)2281: “’iti bhavadi.t.thisannissitaa vaa ti (’so they are either dependent on the view of existence’): they are either dependent thus on the eternity view; for it is the eternity view which is here ‘the view of existence’(vibhava-di.t.thi). For owing to the fact that all (wrong) views are included by the eternity and annihilation views (together), all these beings who hold (wrong) views are dependent on those two kinds of (wrong) view. This also is said: ‘this world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two things, on existence and non-existence’ (Sii17); and here, ‘existence’(atthitaa) is eternity, ‘non-existence’ is annihilation (uccheda). This firstly is the habitat of beings that are ordinary men dependent on the process.” ***** i.e dependent on wrong views as I read it. I’ve quoted extensively from this sutta before, so I can add the helpful comy notes: From B.Bodhi’s translation of the Kaccaanagotta Sutta and commentary, SN 11,Nidaanavagga,15(5): “This world, Kaccaana, for the most part depends upon a duality - upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence “ (Dvayanissito khvaaya.m Kaccaana loko yebhuyyena atthita~n c’eva natthita~n ca.) ..... Com notes (Spk): “ ‘For the most part’ (yebhuyyena) means for the great multitude, with the exception of the noble individuals (ariyapuggala). The notion of existence (atthitaa) is eternalism (sassata); the notion of nonexistence (natthitaa) is annihilationism (uccheda).” ..... Com notes (Spk-p.t): “The notion of existence is eternalism because it maintains that the entire world (of personal existence) exists forever. The notion of nonexistence is annihilationism because it maintains that the entire world does not exist (forever) but is cut off.” ..... Back to the Sutta: “ But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.” .... Com notes (Spk): “ ‘The origin of the world’: the production of the world of formations. ‘There is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world’: there does not occur in him the annihilationist view that might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding ‘They do not exist.” ..... Com notes (Spk-p.t): “The annihilationist view might arise in regard to the world of formations thus: ‘On account of the annihilation and perishing of beings right where they are, there is no persisting being or phenomenon.’ It also includes the wrong view, having these formations as its object, which holds: ‘There are no beings who are reborn.’ That view does not occur in him; for one seeing with right understanding the production and origination of the world of formations in dependence on such diverse conditions as kamma, ignorance, craving, etc, that annihilationist view does not occur, since one sees the uninterrupted production of formations.” ..... Com notes (Spk): “ ‘The cessation of the world’: the dissolution (bhanga) of formations.‘There is no notion of existence in regard to the world’; There does not occur in him the eternalist view which might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding ‘They exist’.” ..... Com notes (Spk-p.t): “The eternalist view mght arise in regard to the world of formations, taking it to exist at all times, owing to the apprehension of identity in the uninterrupted coninuum occurring in a cause-effect relationship. But that view ‘does not occur in him’; because he sees the cessation of the successively arisen phenomena and the arising of succesively new phenomena, the eternalist view does not occur.” ******* In the Brahmajala Sutta however, the 62 views are divided into more categories and eternalist views have a very specific meaning. I’m requoting some parts from a couple of my earlier posts here and adding a few extra notes. From Samyutta Nikaya (1V.7.3) and quoted by B.Bodhi in his intro to the Brahmajala Sutta, commentary and sub-commentary (BPS),we read: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world,...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist”. ***** In his introduction, B.Bodhi gives a summary of the eternalist views. “Ordinarily in the suttas the term ‘eternalism’ is used insiscriminately to signify any view positing an eternally existent entity......In this scheme [i.e as elaborated in Brahmajala sutta], the term is used in a more restricted sense to signify only views referring to the past which assert the eternal pre-existence of both the self and the world together....Three arise from retrocognitive experience of past lives and one from reasoning. The three cases based on recollection of past lives stem from a definite and real spiritual experience. A yogi, by means of effort and contemplative devotion, attains to a degree of mental concentration (samaadhi) of sufficient power to serve as the foundation for the abhi~n~naa or direct knowledge of recalling past lives....He then assumes an eternal self persisting through these periods.” In this detailed description of views, those concerned with eternal perpetuity are classified under ‘immortality’ views. In the sutta, Partial-Eternalism (ekaccasassatavaada) views are also given. I’ll quote one which is interesting: p.68 “In the fourth case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honourable recluses and brahmins eternalists in regard to some things and non-eternalists in regard to other things, proclaiming the self and the world to be partly eternal and partly non-eternal? “Herein bhikkhus, some recluse or brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view - hammered out by reason, deducted from his investigations, following his own flight of thought - thus: ‘That which is called “the eye”, “the ear”, “the nose”, “the tongue”, and “the body” - that self is impermanent, unstable, non-etrenal, subject to change. But that which is called “mind” (citta), or “mentality” (mano), or “consciousness” (vi~n~naa.na) - that self is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself.’ “ ***** Mike, I may have just confused the issue by adding detail from the Brahmajala sutta here. Let me finish with a quote from the Visuddhimagga (Vism XIX,5) about the importance of understanding the conditioned nature of dhammas: ..... "After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again discerns the mental body in the way beginnng: 'due to eye and to visible object eye-consciousness arises' (Sii72, Mi,111). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: "Was I in the past.......... and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future stated thus: "Shall I be in the future?...., and also the six kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus: "Am I?..."(Mi,8) ***** Comments welcome. Metta, Sarah p.s it's very helpful that you bring up details from the tapes,Mike. ====== 24762 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Mike I noted your attempt as getting this sorted out, and thought that perhaps there was a more straightforward explanation than the one below (I've only just found time to reply). In my experience of discussions with A. Sujin, and especially when the subject-matter is to do with satipatthana and daily life situations, 'accumulations' is mostly used in the non-technical sense of a person's accumulated tendencies good and bad. These are simply the latent tendencies that make a person act and react, think or feel etc. as he/she does, and account for an individual's personality and nature, likes and dislikes etc. I do not know of any single Pali term carrying this meaning, but there probably is one (any Pali experts reading this?). I don't know if that usage would fit in the context in which you originally asked the question. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: ... > So could I paraphrase this as saying that, when Khun Sujin uses the > word > 'accumulations', she sometimes means: 'natural strong dependence > condition > (pakatupanissaya paccaya)'; sometimes 'defilements...classified as > latent > tendencies, anusaya: sensuous greed, anger, wrong view, doubt, > conceit, > clinging to existence, ignorance'; sometimes 'sa~n~naa'; sometimes > 'kamma-condition'; sometimes 'natural strong dependence condition'; > and > sometimes some combination of (or even all of) the above? 24763 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:05am Subject: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > -- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear eddie, > > I agree about science and dhamma. Could you give > > more details about the 'samsara and rebirth games' > question. What is it you want answered? > > RobertK > Sorry for the delay, by 'samsara and rebirth games' > question, I mean why all these 'samsara and rebirth > cycles'? I understand that we all (in all levels of > existence) are entities going through these cycles, > which is beginingless and endless. So are the world > cycles. > Thanks, Eddie. > > +++++++++++++ Dear Eddie, There are a couple of possibilities. One is that there are no future or past lives and we just arrived here by chance. Could have been a dog or a horse, wise or dull, handsome or beautiful. It is what some leading scientists think: George Gaylord Simpson: ?gMan is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind.?h (1967, pp.344- 345).Richard Dawkins writes that in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to be) ?gsome people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice.?h (1995, pp.132-133). Jacques Monod: ?gPure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution....?h (Monod, 1972, p.110); That is not the Buddhist way of thinking. According to the Buddha complex conditions are at work conditioning each moment, Many of them hidden by the passing of time. Since every moment has to be conditioned there cannot be revealed a time when there were no conditions - . It is as it is, and I think we cannot know any more than that. The Buddha explained the conditions and he explained how those conditions cease. Once they cease no more rebirth. Best wishes RobertK 24764 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Sukin: Sukon: "Hi Icaro, > >> I like you very much, so I am going to suggest you > something which I > think is going to be useful to you. If you must > learn one new > language, make it Thai. I know that it isn't easy > since it doesn't > use Roman script, but then again you do not have to > learn to write, > just hear and understand." ----------------------------------------------------- It´s a good idea, Sukin! The Lonely planet series, the Berlitz and The Assimil have got good guides for Thai conversation: the alphabet is somewhat clumsy at first look, but the Guides of Conversation and Phrasebooks ( mainly Lonely Planet´s)stand a practical approach to listening and understanding. I´ve got already the indonesian phrasebook, and the Thai´s next one! You can send me the mp3 files by E-mail, if they aren´t biggers than 3MB, or by normal postage if they are above 3 MB. Thank you in advance, dear Sukin! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24765 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Sarah: Sarah: " While you're waiting for Icaro to catch up with > Thai, why not send him > just one or two English MP3s of discussion with KS? > Even though they're > not edited like the Thai, I think Icaro with his > Pali knowledge could > appreciate them. Mike is enjoying the Kaeng Krajan > set, so perhaps that > and the India set? Unfortunately, I don't think you > can make it in time > for bootcamp and his night-time listening." ----------------------------------------------------- Good & blood!!! I will appreciate it indeed but about my boot camp´s night listening... I ought to satisfy myself with H.H. The Dalai Lama tapes!!! Dhammapada, Attavagga: "160. Attaa hi attano naatho, ko hi naatho paro siyaa; attanaa hi sudantena, naatham labhati dullabham." Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24766 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Nina: nina: " Also lakkhanarupas, which are characteristics of > rupas, not concrete matter, > are classified as rupas. There are 28 rupa > paramattha dhammas in all." ---------------------------------------------------- Right on, Nina! If you count the 10 anipphanannarupas, summing up the Three phases or stages of matter: (1) arising (uppada) (2) static (thiti) (3) dissolution (bhanga) you get the 28 paramattha dhammas, from akasa to bhanga. Very clever your definition of lakkhanarupas - they´re rupas and not necessarilly matter: sometimes, reading the Abhidhamma I am under the impression that it correlates directly matter with rupa. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24767 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Hi, Sarah (and Nina, and Icaro) - In a message dated 8/30/03 3:36:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > >Sarah: sabhaava dhamma: yes, with its own distinct nature or > >characteristic. > >When it is plural, I find natures strange, what to do. And sometimes I > >avoid > >characteristics when there is this word lakkhana in the same sentence. > >Stilted language! I may translate it differently in different contexts. > >Essence: no, Icaro does not like this either. > ..... > A lot of people have trouble with sabhaava and particularly with indiv > essence, esp. those who have come from a Mahayana background I think. I > had long discussions with Howard on this. > > Suggestions: > > -distinct nature. Mostly we can avoid pl and say 'with their own distinct > nature'. > - distinct quality. Distinct qualities no prob. > - specific nature/quality > - particular nature/quality > > -individual quality perhaps if we want it to be clear that it's referring > to sabhaava and keep closer to standard transl, but individual may sound > suspect again. > > Mike or Howard would be able to give good feedback too. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: To me, these are all okay, but with "specific (or particular) quality" being the best. The words 'distinct' and 'nature' are, to my "ear", not quite so good, due to their carrying degrees of an odor of self-existence, substantiality, separateness, and independence. It is a matter of connotation and nuance. (I also do not have a big problem with using "specific (or particular) characteristic", with 'characteristic' simply meaning "quality" or "condition". Only when 'characteristic' suggests a sense of hard separateness/independence does it make me uneasy in its use.) For me, the emptiness of all dhammas, their dependent status and corelessness, rank high. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:58am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 9 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 9. 1. Herein, the singlefold section is obvious in meaning. 2. As regards the twofold section, the 'mundane' is that associated with the mundane path and the 'supramundane' is that associated with the supramundane path. So it is of two kinds as mundane and supramundane. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 9. tattha ekavidhako.t.thaaso uttaanatthoyeva. duvidhako.t.thaase lokiyamaggasampayuttaa lokiyaa. lokuttaramaggasampayuttaa lokuttaraati eva.m lokiyalokuttaravasena duvidhaa. 24769 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Sarah (and Icaro), > While you're waiting for Icaro to catch up with Thai, why not send him > just one or two English MP3s of discussion with KS? Even though they're > not edited like the Thai, I think Icaro with his Pali knowledge could > appreciate them. Mike is enjoying the Kaeng Krajan set, so perhaps that > and the India set? Unfortunately, I don't think you can make it in time > for bootcamp and his night-time listening. Do you know for sure that there are English one's in MP3? Mike just asked me about them and I said I will check. But this will have to be 2 weeks from now. Today there was no discussion because K. Sujin had to attend the funeral of K. Sukol's monk brother. > If one considers something to be miccha ditthi, could it be considered as > a gift? Still, I know it's a kind intention and maybe there are parts you > consider as samma ditthi too. I think every one of them will still have to use some terms and concepts taught by the Buddha, so it is up to the listener to make the right or wrong interpretation and not be influenced by the interpretation of the speaker, no?! :-) > Only a sotapanna is beyond the negative influence of miccha ditthi for > sure, I think. Anything can happen meanwhile by conditions..... Yes, of course. I often have the thought that I am kept more or less 'on track' not so much by any real panna, but more by the memory of the words conveying the Teachings. If for example for some reason I loose my memory, I am sure any Guru or Swami or even a Christian missionary will be able to influence me!! :-( > Glad you've found all your lost mail, Sukin. Perhaps it will help prompt > Mike to send all his great reminders on list for us all - here it all gets > preserved and recycled;-) Not everything is back to normal though. I now don't receive any mail from yahoo groups at all :-/. I didn't read all of the lost mails, but one of them was from Dharam, which I was very happy to have found it. I misjudged the situation and am glad that it has turned out to be otherwise. I have written to him. Also Michael Jackson wrote to me the other day, you will be happy to know that he follows as much as he iis able to, the posts here :-). And guess who just walked into my shop a couple of hours ago? Eric and his wife!! They were here to shop for some computer equipment. Erik asked when you and Jon will be here, so maybe you will meet him since they will be here at least till the end of this year. He looks fine and happy! Got his well paid job back and is living in the same luxury apartment that he used to live in. :-) Will end here. Metta, Sukin. PS: Icaro, please send me your mailing address. 24770 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry & Howard, L: > There is no need to deny > the > > existence of names here. What's the point? .... S: The point, I think is to understand what panna is and what it can know. Hence the study of Vism. - panna. I think Howard has explained beautifully. I'll just requote part of it here: .... H: > It is mere convention to speak of > names, > just as it is mere convention to speak of cars and trees and Buddhist > e-mail > groups. Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of > constructs > of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks > of > which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, > insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings. .... I've also selected some of the posts under 'concepts' from UP which you might find useful to revisit or question further. I don't find any difference in the description of the objects of satipatthana (i.e paramattha dhammas) in the Abhidhamma and the Suttanta. Nor do I find any suggestion of concepts existing or having the characteristics of anicca and dukkha anywhere. At this moment of thinking about names, the thinking can be known to be real and so on, but the names are merely conceptualised. Look forward to any further discussion and apologies if I inadvertently caused any confusion. Btw, has anyone heard from Goglerr anywhere? He contributed some great posts on DSG during his stay. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, all the pieces you gave on the cankers (asavas) looked pretty good.Thx for adding the dict. extract too. I'll be glad to hear anything further from Nina and the subcomy. ====== Larry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12935 RobK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12940 Goglerr & Larry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13013 Ray http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13394 Larry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15642 Howard http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21057 Sarah http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21479 Lee http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22087 Mike http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23876 24771 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Sukin: Sukin:"PS: Icaro, please send me your mailing address." ------------------------------------------------------ With pleasure, Sukin! My name and complete address are: Ícaro dos Santos França Rua Bulhões Marcial 553, apt.201 Parada de lucas, CEP 21241-370, Rio de Janeiro RJ, BRAZIL. Thank you in advance, Sukin! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24772 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Correction !!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Ocaro: " Right on, Nina! > If you count the 10 anipphanannarupas, summing up > the Three phases or stages of matter:" > > (1) arising (uppada) > (2) static (thiti) > (3) dissolution (bhanga) > > you get the 28 paramattha dhammas," -------------------------------------------------- No! No! No! Only if you consider each of the stages as made of six elements. The 28 Paramatthas dhammas are: 1. form - rupa 2. sound - sadda 6. ear - sota (9) 3. odor - gandha 7. nose - ghana (10) 4. taste - rasa 8. tongue - jivha (11) 5. eye - cakkhu 9. body - kaya (12) 10. temperature - tezo 11. resistance - pathavi 12. motion - vayo 13. cohesion - apo 14. jinvita - life principle 15. Female principle 16. Male principle 17. mind base (hadya-vatthu 18. Oja - food and summing up the 10 anipphanannarupas from akasha to aniccata you´ll get the 28 paramattha dhammas! Mettaya, Ícaro from akasa to > bhanga. Very clever your definition of lakkhanarupas > - > they´re rupas and not necessarilly matter: > sometimes, > reading the Abhidhamma I am under the impression > that > it correlates directly matter with rupa. > > Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:00am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 10 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 10. 3. In the second dyad, that 'subject to cankers' is that which is the object of cankers. That 'free from cankers' is not their object. This dyad is the same in meaning as the mundane and supramundane. The same method applies to the dyads 'subject to cankers and free from cankers, associated with cankers and dissociated from cankers' (Dhs. p. 3), and so on. So it is of two kinds as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 10. dutiyaduke aasavaana.m aaramma.nabhuutaa saasavaa. tesa.m anaaramma.naa anaasavaa. atthato panesaa lokiyalokuttaraava hoti. aasavasampayuttaa saasavaa. aasavavippayuttaa anaasavaatiaadiisupi eseva nayo. eva.m saasavaanaasavaadivasena duvidhaa. 24774 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Sukin, --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > > Do you know for sure that there are English one's in MP3? Mike just > asked me about them and I said I will check. .... Yes, yes, yes. K.Supee had put more or less all the English tapes onto MP3 when we last visited. Recently I asked K.Supatson to help me send English MP3 (the ones I just mentioned) to our friend living in Laos. (You might like to check this with her next time). K.Supee has even put some of the really old discussions recorded on reel-to-reel from the 70s onto MP3. What would be really useful would be a simple index of what they have. It would be great if you could help with checking/listening or distributing these at all, Sukin. Maybe you can report back in two weeks time. When they are better organised, we can also look at sets they don't have which we (and others) can feed back from our recording to go onto MP3 too. ..... > I think every one of them will still have to use some terms and concepts > > taught by the Buddha, so it is up to the listener to make the right or > wrong interpretation and not be influenced by the interpretation of the > speaker, no?! :-) .... ??;-) .... > > > Only a sotapanna is beyond the negative influence of miccha ditthi for > > sure, I think. Anything can happen meanwhile by conditions..... > > Yes, of course. I often have the thought that I am kept more or less 'on > track' not so much by any real panna, but more by the memory of the > words conveying the Teachings. If for example for some reason I loose > my memory, I am sure any Guru or Swami or even a Christian > missionary will be able to influence me!! :-( .... ;-( .... > Not everything is back to normal though. I now don't receive any mail > from yahoo groups at all :-/. I didn't read all of the lost mails, .... ! OK you just have to discuss more dhamma here then.... .... but > one of > them was from Dharam, which I was very happy to have found it. I > misjudged the situation and am glad that it has turned out to be > otherwise. I have written to him. ..... It's interesting how we sometimes jump to conclusions when we never know the full facts. I like Howard's reminder to think the best when there's any doubt. .... > Also Michael Jackson wrote to me the other day, you will be happy to > know that he follows as much as he iis able to, the posts here :-). .... Very, very glad to hear this. Michael J, if you're reading this, we'd love to hear how you and your dhamma studies/practice are going. Are you still in Canberra? (For those that haven't read the archives, Michael J was a colourful poster about 3 yrs ago at a guess.) .... > And guess who just walked into my shop a couple of hours ago? Eric > and his wife!! [...] .... This is really great news! It's super they can live together again and in comfort after being well and truly tested by difficult circumstances. We look f/w to seeing them too. Perhaps you can help persuade both these colourful posters to drop us all a line on DSG. I know many like Howard would be glad to see Erik around again. It's amazing how Erik and Eath's lives just keep unravelling like a complex movie script;-) Thx and metta, Sarah ====== 24775 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:17am Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists: To Howard Dear Howard, and all How are you? You wrote the following in reply to Ken: "Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find much more there than has seemed to be the case to me.------- Now, mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka." Go ahead, Howard! With your expertise in mathematics and computer science, the complexities in Abhidhamma Pitaka should not be obstacles. Abhidhamma Pitaka also contains one particular text called Kathaavatthu that is the oldest Indian logic book. Kathaavatthu uses a logical system involving items like self, person and so on. It aims to settle many doctrinal issues between the mainstream Theravada and other breakaway groups such as Pro-person thinkers (Puggalavaadins). As far as I am concerned, the most interesting aspects of Abhidhamma Pitaka are the relentless analysis and discussion of mental events (cittuppaadas)and mental associates(cetasikas) from various angles and approaches. And the most delicious Abhidhamma text according to me is Pa.t.thaana, the last and largest book with five volumes where the twenty-four causes or conditions are thoroughly analyzed and discussed. By the way, Naagaarjuna, the founder of Mahayana Buddhism in second century A.D, took from Pa.t.thaana only four conditions as follows. "catvaarah pratyayaa hetu`scaalambanamanantaram, tathaivaadhipateyyam ca pratyayo naasti pa`ncamah" Verse 4, Chapter 1, Muulamadhyamakakaarikaah. "There are four conditions: root, object, immediateness, As well as leading role; there isn't the fifth condition." Whatever Naagaarjuna said about the number of conditions, you will find all the twenty-four of them in Pa.t.thaana. Welcome to the Teachings On Realities (Paramatthadesanaa)! With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: "Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find much more there than has seemed to be the case to me.------- Now, mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka." With metta, Howard > Hi, Ken - 24776 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Larry, op 30-08-2003 03:32 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > As "subject to cankers and not subject to cankers" is the same as > "mundane and supramundane", I take this to mean all mundane panna of > everyone except arahants is subject to cankers and all supramundane > panna arising in the 4 path moments and 4 path fruitions is not subject > to cankers. An arahant's panna is not subject to cankers whether mundane > or supramundane. 3. In the second dyad, that "subject to cankers" is that which > is the object of cankers. That "free from cankers" is not their object. Nina: There can be clinging to mundane panna, that is the meaning of: panna can be object of cankers. As to lokuttara panna: there is no clinging to this, only maybe to an idea we have of it. Because lokuttara panna leads to the end of defilements. I am just studying the subco: anaasava for lokuttara panna: because of its object. It has nibbana as object. Then Dsg, 3, I could not find. But another passage of Dsg: (good for Icaro, if he is still reading this) Book III, nikkhepaka..n..da.m. Part I, Ch IV: aasava-gocchaka.m (asava group): Footnote that is the same as my subco I am struggling with: saasavas: dhammas proceeding with aasavas, and which have made onself their object (attaanam aaramma.na.m katvaa). But, in our text, is there not reference all the time to panna? Thus, not panna itself, has asavas, but, the asavas make panna their object. What do you think? nina. 24777 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:13am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, [...] > I think it would be useful and interesting to explore this further - > especially icchatta (fewness of wishes) and contentment with little. I'd > be glad to read anything further that you particularly have in mind from > the texts, but I know you are hoping to be easing off on internet use for > now. In an earlier message I corrected 'icchataa' to 'appicchataa'. I also made reference to the 5 dhuras which is also incorrect. That should be the five dhutadhammas as discussed in the AN commentary on Mahakassapa. Wasn't there some DSG discussion on this some time ago? Since I'm trying to cut down on my participation in list discussions, it's probably not a good idea for me to take on more research work at this time. However, I'll keep it in mind and perhaps in those quieter moments later this year I'll have an opportunity to look into it in more detail. Fewness of wishes and contentment are included in the five ascetic practices (dhutadhammas) and relate to alobha. Kaayaviveka (bodily seclusion) would be another interesting one to look at. I don't know if this is included among the dhutadhammas, perhaps in pavivekataa. I also like the 'nekkhamma' (renunciation) that Suan brought up. This term also belongs to sammaasankappa (right thought), the 2nd member of the noble eightfold path. > I'll try, therefore to also resist adding any questions or comments that > you might feel bound to respond to, Jim;-) Rather like 'solitude', I think > there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and then fewness of > wishes being the opposite of craving. I have a quote I like a lot about > icchataa in this manner, but I may put it in another post to Nori. > ..... > >I think > > one of the problems of living truly as a bhikkhu is the incredibly > > wide gap between it and living as a layperson in a busy modern > > society. It seems to me that for most people it is taking quite a > > psychological leap to go from one to the other, a leap that was > > probably not so great during the time of the Buddha when most people > > were living a much simpler life than now. > ... > I'm sure that's right for many. But, of course many of the bhikkhus left > very wealthy and prestigious lay lives as well, so I'm not sure about > this. Also, I'm not sure the leap in terms of leaving family and friends > is ever less for those used to leading a simpler life. Now I'm not so sure either. > .... > >I'm thinking that the simple > > life as a layperson could be a bridge between the two in that the > > layperson is free to work at his own pace towards the bhikkhu/homeless > > person ideal. I also understand that there can be other approaches > > too, it's really up to each individual to work out what's best. One > > could also take up a simple solitary life in the city. > .... > I mostly agree with all your comments, Jim and I know that you have very > kindly intentions to try to help and support others who wish to lead a > simple solitary life as you have done for so long. I know you have gained > a lot of experience in this regard that you can share and are very aware > of the difficulties others may have. It's kind of you to consider > supporting those without internet access by snail mail. Azita very kindly > prints out copies of DSG posts to send to thr ex-bhikkhus I mentioned and > others. Anumodana, Azita. I'm just thinking that RobM's Xmas present CD > could be of great use in this regard - if they at least have computers > they can read the archives without internet access if they wish and then > snailmail comments to pass back here. (Christine, maybe you could raise > this at the Cooran weekend.) I think it would be a good idea to keep in touch with these ex-bhikkhus of whom I hardly know anything about. I know that it can be unhealthy for solitaries to cut off all communication with other Buddhists for years on end. We need to stay in touch with each other in one way or another. Before I started using the internet, I would occasionally make the effort to be in a Buddhist community either by staying at a Buddhist centre in the country or going to the city and getting involved in their activities for awhile. I think that perhaps most people (Buddhists included) seldom make any effort to get in touch with a solitary rural contemplative. It seems that it is the solitary dweller that has to make the effort and even at that, as in my own experience in Ontario, one may not get a response. I think those who enjoy solitary living should be included as a vital part of the larger Buddhist community. It would seem incomplete if all Buddhists were urban dwellers and they never knew nor ever had a chance to meet any from the forest. There's no point in trying to convince a solitary forest dweller (a rare thing) that he'd be much better off in the big city or to ask him to justify his chosen way of life. > As I've mentioned before, while I think it's good if we can support those > living a solitary life by choice or conditions (and like Chris, I think > it's good to keep this topic alive here), to be honest, I'm not sure > whether one can refer to a physically solitary life as 'the > bhikkhu/homeless ideal'. I don't think it has to be 100% solitary confinement. There is some good commentary on MN1 describing a balance between living alone in the forest and interacting with society and why many of the suttas give two locations of the Buddha's abode: the place of resort (a village, town, or city) and the place of contemplation (eg. at the foot of a tree). Until this year, I was in the habit of only going to the village for groceries once a month and then I got to thinking about the bhikkhu going into the village for his almsfood every day. So I've been working to change my habit to going in once a week and also using this day as a day for wandering about extensively on foot and mingling in with the people and traffic. I was so surprised at how many friendly people I met in the village on Thursday and how quick and willing they were to assist me. > We read so much in the Vinaya and suttas about the duties of bhikkhus > towards other bhikkhus and lay people. As you know, I've been reading the > commentary to the Parinibbana sutta and the details about the welfare and > harmony of the Sangha in terms of frequent assembly for so many purposes. > I was also interested in the section (all in ch1) about "The well-behaved > (pesalaa): those whose behaviour (siila) is good (piya)." In brief, these > are the bhikkhus who 'behave hospitably' to visiting bhikkhus. If the > visitor says "he will leave, they do not allow him to leave, saying things > like, 'this dwelling-place is suitable, it is easy to get almsfood.' They > rehearse the Vinaya and various teachings with the visiting elders. "The > visitors will say, 'Though when we came we thought that we would stay one > or two days, it is such a pleasure to live with these people that we will > stay ten or twelve years.'" And so, the Sangha prospers! [...] Thank-you for all your interesting comments and your help with the grammar books. I much agree with what you write. I believe that a solitary life can be lived in such a way that it can be beneficial both to the individual and those around him. It doesn't have to be the way of an anti-social hermit. I very much wish to apply the Theravada teachings in my daily life. Best wishes, Jim 24778 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma cannot be wrong. Hi Larry, op 30-08-2003 04:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. N: The Dhamma is subtle and deep and we cannot understand all. Take alone the Dependent Origination. We can only understand part of it. I think when there is something we do not understand we should not say, the Abhidhamma is wrong. This what Ken H also said. We cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom. We should have the greatest respect for the Abhidhamma. Another example: sometimes asavas are classified as four, sometimes as three. No contradiction, but different aspects are shown. We cannot say, this classification is older then the other. Nina. 24779 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Dear Nina: Nina: "(good for > Icaro, if he is still reading this) Book III, > nikkhepaka..n..da.m. Part I, > Ch IV: aasava-gocchaka.m (asava group): > kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas, avyaakata dhammas, > of the worlds of sense > (kama), form (rupa; rupajhana) and formless > (arupajhana); in other words the > five khandhas.>" ------------------------------------------------------ Yes Nina! I am still reading the Dhammasangani! At my Dhammasangani I found (Dhammasangani, 3 Nikkhepakandam,4,ime dhamma aasava: "1116. Katame dhammaa aasavavippayutta saasava? Tehi dhammehi ye dhamma vippayutta saasava kusalakusalabyaakata dhamma kamavacara, rupaavacara, arupaavacara, rupakkhandho…pe… viññ±aanakkhandho– ime dhamma aasavavippayutta saasava." "1116. What are the dhammas connected with aasava, that flow at separated ways ? These caused dhammas are kusala, akusala, abyaakata, Kamma, rupa-sphere, arupa-sphere, rupakkhando, etc ( five khandas)... these are the Dhammas connected with aasava, that flow at separate ways." -------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Footnote that is the same as my subco I am > struggling with: saasavas: > dhammas proceeding with aasavas, and which have made > onself their object > (attaanam aaramma.na.m katvaa). > But, in our text, is there not reference all the > time to panna? Thus, not > panna itself, has asavas, but, the asavas make panna > their object. What do > you think?" ----------------------------------------------------- Nina, the subCos are still beyond my resources...but with patience I will go there! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24780 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists: To Howard [This is a resending of another reply of mine that has bounced. Hope this makes it!] Hi, Suan - In a message dated 8/30/03 12:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Howard, and all > > How are you? > > You wrote the following in reply to Ken: > > "Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in > Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study > abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to > properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find > much more there than has seemed to be the case to me.------- Now, > mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here > (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back &forth between us > has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my > eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka." > > > Go ahead, Howard! > > With your expertise in mathematics and computer science, the > complexities in Abhidhamma Pitaka should not be obstacles. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) Yeah, one would think that with my training I would naturally gravitate towards Abhidhamma! (My mathematical and symbolic tendencies are offset, however, by a strong inclination towards a poetic take on things.) ------------------------------------------------- > > Abhidhamma Pitaka also contains one particular text called > Kathaavatthu that is the oldest Indian logic book. Kathaavatthu uses > a logical system involving items like self, person and so on. It aims > to settle many doctrinal issues between the mainstream Theravada and > other breakaway groups such as Pro-person thinkers (Puggalavaadins). > > As far as I am concerned, the most interesting aspects of Abhidhamma > Pitaka are the relentless analysis and discussion of mental events > (cittuppaadas)and mental associates(cetasikas) from various angles > and approaches. > > And the most delicious Abhidhamma text according to me is > Pa.t.thaana, the last and largest book with five volumes where the > twenty-four causes or conditions are thoroughly analyzed and > discussed. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is the book I would be most inclined to give serious study to. ------------------------------------------------- > > By the way, Naagaarjuna, the founder of Mahayana Buddhism in second > century A.D, took from Pa.t.thaana only four conditions as follows. > > "catvaarah pratyayaa hetu`scaalambanamanantaram, > tathaivaadhipateyyam ca pratyayo naasti pa`ncamah" > > Verse 4, Chapter 1, Muulamadhyamakakaarikaah. > > "There are four conditions: root, object, immediateness, > As well as leading role; there isn't the fifth condition." > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I recall that. I also recall that Kalupahana and Garfield had different interpretation of the MMK on this point in their translation-commentaries of the work, but I don't recall exactly how they differ. --------------------------------------------- > > Whatever Naagaarjuna said about the number of conditions, you will > find all the twenty-four of them in Pa.t.thaana. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've looked at several web sites on the Pa.t.thaana. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Welcome to the Teachings On Realities (Paramatthadesanaa)! > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Or on "ultimates". ----------------------------------------------------- > > With regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24781 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Eddie, > There are a couple of possibilities. One is that... > ...evolution....?h (Monod, 1972, p.110); > > That is not the Buddhist way of thinking. According > to the Buddha complex conditions are at work conditioning each moment, Many of them hidden by the passing of time. Since every moment has to be conditioned there cannot be revealed a time when there were no conditions - . It is as it is, and I think we cannot know any more than that. The Buddha explained the conditions and he explained how those conditions cease. Once they cease no more rebirth. > Best wishes > RobertK Dear Robert, Thanks for the input. Normally the first view seems understandable but on closer look it is just "seems" to look realistic but has many missing links. The Buddha's view may seem superstitious but 'to me' it has much less missing links - one being that question of mine. The reason being "conditioned" condition/effect is another way of saying 'cause & effect', which is one of the very fundamental pillars of his explanations. If we look at- all and everything that we can discern in our world, there is 'not one SINGLE thing' that is without a cause. The effect arisen in turn can become cause of the next effect. And the chain can continue on. But sometimes the cause can not be found, as you mentioned above ...'hidden by the passing of time'... like 'cause in previous life'. That seems to explain individual rebirths and those child prodigies like Almadeus Mozart. These prodigal effects were well documented and are still happening all the time. Coming back to that question - why all these beginingless and endless... rebirth cycles. I hope I do not need a Samasan Buddha himself to give me an answer, another possibility is - our most recent Buddha Gotama's teaching in scriptures like Tipitika or Abidhamma. So I am asking around, hoping someone have come across this issue. Metta Eddie Lou 24782 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Nina: "Thus, not panna itself, has asavas, but, the asavas make panna their object. What do you think?" Hi Nina, I agree. As Howard is fond of saying, everything is interrelated. So mundane panna arises (for an ordinary person) in an atmosphere of cankers, is associated with cankers, and the object of cankers: sense desire, survival instinct (bhavaasava), wrong views, and bewilderment. I take "sense desire" to include mental satisfaction at intellectual nicety. Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal becoming of insight? Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. I'm not sure how to characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any ideas? Larry 24783 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Thanks, Nina-- ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan > Dear Mike, > op 29-08-2003 16:31 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > > So my question should > > have been, 'does 'result' refer only to future lives? Are there no > > 'results' that are not future rebirths? > N: If we take result in the sense of vipaka: as far as I understand no, > there are not. > Nina 24784 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Thanks Sarah, A lot to digest here--more later. mike 24785 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Howard: "Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings." Hi Howard, I think the key _name_ here is "phenomenal". No matter how you slice it a name is a mental event and so has a characteristic of becoming, the same as a feeling, mental image (meaning), affection, or intention. However, if I said names exist then I went too far. My intention was simply to say they are included in the khandhas and have a characteristic that "becomes". Regarding extremes of "existence" and "nonexistence" I refer you to a voluminous post by Sarah today on this subject. Below is a small snippet: "First straight from the Sammohavinodanii (commentary to the Vibhanga, 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka)2281: "'iti bhavadi.t.thisannissitaa vaa ti ('so they are either dependent on the view of existence'): they are either dependent thus on the eternity view; for it is the eternity view which is here 'the view of existence'(vibhava-di.t.thi). For owing to the fact that all (wrong) views are included by the eternity and annihilation views (together), all these beings who hold (wrong) views are dependent on those two kinds of (wrong) view. This also is said: 'this world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two things, on existence and non-existence' (Sii17); and here, 'existence'(atthitaa) is eternity, 'non-existence' is annihilation (uccheda). This firstly is the habitat of beings that are ordinary men dependent on the process."" Larry (Lllll airrrr eeeeee) 24786 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Thanks, Jon--got it. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 3:05 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. > Mike > > I noted your attempt as getting this sorted out, and thought that > perhaps there was a more straightforward explanation than the one > below (I've only just found time to reply). > > In my experience of discussions with A. Sujin, and especially when > the subject-matter is to do with satipatthana and daily life > situations, 'accumulations' is mostly used in the non-technical sense > of a person's accumulated tendencies good and bad. > > These are simply the latent tendencies that make a person act and > react, think or feel etc. as he/she does, and account for an > individual's personality and nature, likes and dislikes etc. I do > not know of any single Pali term carrying this meaning, but there > probably is one (any Pali experts reading this?). > > I don't know if that usage would fit in the context in which you > originally asked the question. > > Jon 24787 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: L: There is no need to deny the existence of names here. What's the point? .... S: The point, I think is to understand what panna is and what it can know. Hence the study of Vism. - panna. As Nina affirmed a few days ago, panna can understand anything, including concepts. This is also borne out by the four "resolvings of continuous breaking up" (patisambhida), four kinds of panna: meanings, assertions, language, and "ready wit". Larry 24788 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Fw: failure notice for Sukin--sorry, Mods! Hi Sukin, Sorry, it seems your email troubles are not over--I received the failure notice below for my last two tries to your address. Hope you'll read this on dsg. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: failure notice > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at zipcon.net. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > Sorry. Although I'm listed as a best-preference MX or A for that host, > it isn't in my control/locals file, so I don't treat it as local. (#5.4.6) > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > Return-Path: > Received: (qmail 28918 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2003 16:20:12 -0700 > Received: from fumble.zipcon.net (HELO x9g7g8) (209.221.136.35) > by zipcon.net with SMTP; 30 Aug 2003 16:20:12 -0700 > Message-ID: <006601c36f4c$d17af600$2388ddd1@x9g7g8> > From: "m. nease" > To: "Sukinder" > References: <000a01c36ea3$4e8b9140$2c88ddd1@x9g7g8> <000d01c36eb5$ec5cda70$b1c76bcb@home> > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:59:07 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 > > Hi Sukin, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sukinder > To: m. nease > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 10:16 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > > > Hi again, > > > > Sorry I didn't notice that you wrote suggesting that you were not familiar > > with MP3. > > MP3 are compressed sound files which can be played by most up-to-date > audio > > software. They are written on normal CDs. So you can play these from the > > computer using the Media- player or whatever that comes with Windows. > > Also most electronic companies have now come out with hardware that can > play > > these > > files. Last year I bought a Sony Net MD, these can play modified versions > of > > MP3, ie. > > you hook the player to your computer and put your MP3 CD to your drive, > and > > via the > > Sony software, these MP3 files are converted with some loss in the degree > of > > compression > > to allow for these files to be copied over to the MDs. So now I can have > up > > to 4 1/2 hrs > > of Dhamma on one MD. > > But more than this, just 3 weeks ago, I bought an Mp3 player with 12 CD > > changer for my car, so now I have at any given time, more than 200 hrs of > > Dhamma in my car. :-) > > Excellent! And thanks for the explanation. I knew people exchanged these > via the internet but was unsure of the medium--the cd. > > > Do you have a CD player on your computer? > > I do--if there are any English cd's I'd love to have them--the Thai ones > would be of no use, unfortunately. > > Thanks again, > > mike 24789 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) ;-)) How_weird! In a message dated 8/30/03 8:34:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Larry (Lllll airrrr eeeeee) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24790 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Dear Larry: larry:" I > take "sense desire" to include mental satisfaction > at intellectual > nicety. Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal > becoming of insight?" ---------------------------------------------------- Of course Nina can take this subject at a proper way, Larry...but only think about the old nursery rhyme ( about bhavaasava and insight): "Old Mother Hubbard went to her cupboard To give her poor dog a bone. When she got there The cupboard was bare And so the poor dog has none." Mother of whom we are talking about ???? It´s only the same question: may the bare survival desire to be sufficient to make one poor dog (or another proper animal) gets insight of the higher values of existence ? At first analysis yes... the bhavaasava can conduct one to the first glimpse of insight. But Aasavas are aasavas: people gets nothing for nothing... you must take the Noble Path with good intentions and a well disposed mind to obtain at least the more basic jhanas. ------------------------------------------------------- Larry: "Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. > I'm not sure how to > characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any > ideas?" ----------------------------------------------------- It sounds strange such mundane traits taking a serious decision to get pañña. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Larry ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24791 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:asava Dear Sarah and Mike, Never have I read Vis. so slowly, it is a good thing. With subco I have to return all the time to Vis text. Aasavas get more difficult. I have to pull out more books. Panna cannot be together with asava, but it can be object of asava shortly after it has fallen away. Also, the asava can be object of panna. I have to study more the meaning of sasaasava, with aasava. When a sentence is too tough I could leave it out, putting dots. It is a pity to give it all up just because there is a too difficult sentence here and there. I conclude from the Dhsg that also avyaakata dhammas, and kusala can be proceeding along with asavas. Thus, this doeas not mean: they are accompanied by asavas at that moment, but, proceeding along may mean: be objects of asavas. On account of them asavas can arise? Re object is difficult to sort out. I looked at Co. Dhammasangani(Topics of Abh) under taints and here is something for Mike: Thus, they are differentiated. Existence is here the transl of bhaava. Nina. op 30-08-2003 11:21 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I'll be glad to hear anything > further from Nina and the subcomy. 24792 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Sukin, re: cremation Dear Sukin, op 30-08-2003 11:22 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Today there was no discussion because K. Sujin had > to attend the funeral of K. Sukol's monk brother. N: This touches me very, very deeply and I sympathize with K. Sukol very much, please tell him this. Lodewijk will also be touched, we both respected him so much. We were going to ask for a trip to the Wat Dong Devi when we are in Thailand end January, beginning February, because we wanted to see him. What a loss for the Dhamma also, he had such great understanding. Can you give me more news? I like to hear about the Abbot's kusala and about the Dhamma talk at the ceremony. Nina. 24793 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala kamma continues samsara Nina The commentary material you quote below is interesting stuff. Is it from a published translation, or is it your own translation from the Pali (or Thai)? Thanks. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: ... > N: I shall just quote from my : > Sayings on > Cause, Ch I, § 3, The Way) that the Buddha, while dwelling near > Såvatthí, > said to the monks: > > Which, monks, is the wrong way? 3Conditioned by ignorance > activities come to > pass; conditioned by activities consciousness2... even (the way of) > the > uprising of this entire mass of dukkha. This is called the wrong > way. > And which is the right way? 3But from the utter fading away and > ceasing of > ignorance (comes) the ceasing of activities; from the ceasing of > activities > (comes) ceasing of consciousness2... even (the way of) the ceasing > of this > entire mass of dukkha. This is called the right way. ... > The Commentary to this Sutta, the 3Såratthappakåsiní2, states: 3The > wrong > way is the way that does not deliver beings from dukkha.2 The > Commentary > explains that in this respect also the attainment of the stages of > jhåna > (the eight jhåna samåpatti, including rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna) > and the > five 3supra-natural powers2 (abhiññås ) are part of the cycle > (vatta) and > are as such the wrong way of practice. The way of practice by > which > ignorance and the other defilements are completely eradicated and > nibbåna is > attained is the right way. Further on, the Commentary explains that > in this > sutta the practice is considered from the point of view of the > result it > leads to: the continuation of the cycle (vatta) or the end of the > cycle > (vivatta). When it leads to the end of defilements, nibbåna, it is > the right > way practice. > The Commentary states that even the offering of one ladle of rice > or a > handful of leaves can be the right way of practice, leading out of > the > cycle. When someone performs dåna together with satipatthåna, > without the > idea of self who is giving, the giving is very pure, it is the > right > practice. > 24794 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, sabhaava. Thank you Sarah, very good. I also liked Howard's remarks. Nina. op 30-08-2003 09:28 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > distinct nature. Mostly we can avoid pl and say 'with their own distinct > nature'. > - distinct quality. Distinct qualities no prob. > - specific nature/quality > - particular nature/quality 24795 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Brahmajala Sutta- dhamma Dear Sarah, Thank you for all the quotes. But originally the question was: the kinds of ditthi which are akusala kamma patha. with regard to eternity belief. op 30-08-2003 09:48 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Just quoting from the Brahmajala sutta reminded me that in the comy and > subcomy to it, there are a lot of details on meanings of 'dhamma', p.121 N: yes, p. 127. The same as in Mulapariyaya, Jon mentioned. The Saddaniti has given more. Nina. 24796 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:48am Subject: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > > Dear Robert, > Thanks for the input. Normally the first view [that of ne0- darwinism which suggests chance development of mid and humanity rk] seems > understandable but on closer look it is just "seems" > to look realistic but has many missing links. _____ Yes exactly. It is simply a view buttressed by 'objective scientific evidence'. Miccha-ditthi. ------------ The > Buddha's view may seem superstitious but 'to me' it > has much less missing links - one being that question > of mine. The reason being "conditioned" > condition/effect is another way of saying 'cause & > effect', which is one of the very fundamental pillars > of his explanations. If we look at- all and everything > that we can discern in our world, there is 'not one > SINGLE thing' that is without a cause. The effect > arisen in turn can become cause of the next effect. > And the chain can continue on. But sometimes the cause > can not be found, as you mentioned above ...'hidden by > the passing of time'... like 'cause in previous life'. > That seems to explain individual rebirths and those > child prodigies like Almadeus Mozart. These prodigal > effects were well documented and are still happening > all the time. _________ yes that is right. No single condition prodcuing results either - many complex conditions. __________ > Coming back to that question - why all these > beginingless and endless... rebirth cycles. I hope I > do not need a Samasan Buddha himself to give me an > answer, another possibility is - our most recent > Buddha Gotama's teaching in scriptures like Tipitika > or Abidhamma. So I am asking around, hoping someone > have come across this issue. ________________ Dear Eddie, Do you think having the question answered would lead out of samsara? Whether you find the answer or not the truth is that samsara exists and the causes for samsara- ignorance and craving are present. How to eradicate them is the buddhist focus. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html Majjhima Nikaya 63 Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness: "These positions that are undisclosed, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One -- 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is infinite,' >>>> I don't accept that the Blessed One has not disclosed them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he discloses to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,' that 'The cosmos is not eternal,' that 'The cosmos is finite,' that 'The cosmos is infinite,' >>> then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not disclose to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life." "Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will disclose to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' >>>>> "No, lord." "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I ......'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him. "In the same way, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not disclose to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that ....' the man would die and those things would still remain undisclosed by the Tathagata. "Malunkyaputta, it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' and when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now. ""So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed. And what is undisclosed by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undisclosed by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undisclosed by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... "And why are they undisclosed by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undisclosed by me. "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Malunkyaputta delighted in the Blessed One's words. RobertK > .com 24797 From: torloff87048 Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:26pm Subject: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma I wonder if one of you that is a student of the Abhidhamma could help me understand how to apprehend verbal intimation in strict Abhidhamma terms. What I mean is, once the volition to speak has become a mental factor, what types of consciousness (cittas), objects of consciousness, and mental factors (cetasikas) are present during the course of the speech? (The terminology I'm using is taken from "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" originally translated by Ven. Narada and newly translated and revised by Bhikku Bodhi. I hope the language is universal enough for others to make the necessary correspondences with their own.) For example, suppose one person says to another, "I'm going to the store." Let's assume the original citta in which the volition to speak occured is wholesome, with the object being the welfare (through communication) of the one who is spoken to. Obviously, more than one citta occurs during the actual speaking of the sentence. "I'm going to the store," if only because cittas are of much shorter duration than the time it takes to say that. Also, while the sentence is being spoken all kinds of sensory impressions are most likely being adverted to consciousness and processed at some minimal level. Does this mean that the cittas which have the original object (the welfare of the other) are continually arising and falling during the act of speech? Do other cittas with different objects have to intervene in order to access the individual words and speak them? Is each word a mental object in its own right before it is spoken? Or are we to understand the words as being aspects of the original object, which are sequentially perceived during speech by cittas arising with more or less the same original object, only keeping track of what has been already said? How is one to make sense of grammar in terms of the Abhidhamma? Where is grammar located and how does it arise and affect the course of speaking so that sentences come out grammatically correct? I'm not even sure that I'm asking the right questions here. What I'm hoping for is someone to lead me through all the cittas, mind-objects and cetasikas that generally occur during speech. The more details the better! Take a simple example, like, "I'm going to the store," and analyze it on the most microscopic level possible, making whatever assumptions necessary to pin things down. Many thanks for any insights and commentary. 24798 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Rob M I've just had a look at the files. This is great work, and will be invaluable for accessing the wealth of good material that is in the archives. Many thanks indeed for your kusala effort in doing this. I would certainly like to receive a copy of the CD. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Friends, > > When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my > mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past > posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling > through a limited number of messages on a web page to be > inconvient. > I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the > text > of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear > on > a web-page). > > I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of > software and brute force. The "software" part is quick, but > the "brute force" part takes time (I will likely be "current" by > December. In the "files" section of DSG, you will find five zipped > Word documents. Each Word document covers 1000 messages and is > about > 1000 pages long (the zip files are each about 1 meg in size). > > I will not be adding any more files because a rough calculation > shows that there will not be enough space in the files section of > the DSG to hold all of the files. I ask those of you who wish to > get > a "Christmas present" from me to drop me an email > at "rob.moult@j..." and I will snail mail you a CD with the > complete set of files. > > Enjoy! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24799 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry (Nina, Num & Sukin), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Re: L: There is no need to deny the > existence of names here. What's the point? .... > S: The point, I think is to understand what panna is and what it can > know. > Hence the study of Vism. - panna. > L: > As Nina affirmed a few days ago, panna can understand anything, > including concepts. This is also borne out by the four "resolvings of > continuous breaking up" (patisambhida), four kinds of panna: meanings, > assertions, language, and "ready wit". ..... S:Just to clarify a little more on panna in my comment: As we know, panna (right understanding) also accompanies moments of samatha. For example, if there is kusala reflection on the Buddha's qualities or on Dhamma now, then there must be panna accompanying the wise reflection with concepts as objects. However, when we are referring to the development of satipatthana or vipassana as we were, then it is the understanding of nama and rupa, hence all the references to 'understanding as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states'. Nina added a subco addition to this: ***** N:Vis. subco 8. dhammasabhaavapa.tivedho naama pa~n~naaya aave.niko sabhaavo, na tenassaa koci vibhaago labbhatiiti aaha The penetration of the individual natures of dhammas is truly the special characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa''ti. ‘Because of its characteristic of penetration of the individual natures of dhammas it is just so of one kind.’ ***** Only paramattha dhammas, i.e namas and rupas, have sabhaava (individual nature) which can be directly known. .... L: > As Nina affirmed a few days ago, panna can understand anything, > including concepts. This is also borne out by the four "resolvings of > continuous breaking up" (patisambhida), four kinds of panna: meanings, > assertions, language, and "ready wit". .... I forget the context of Nina’s comment. Perhaps she’ll clarify. As it says at the start of the Vism ch, “Understanding (pa~n~naa)is of many sorts and has various aspects.” There are kinds of panna without the Buddha’s teaching. Even when concepts are the object of consciousness and panna, they do not exist. With regard to the patisambhida, it’s a very difficult subject for me and I’d need to consider further. However, only some arahants had these very highly developed kinds of panna based on very clear comprehension of all realities and full enlightenment. When we read about them, especially the third one perhaps, it seems conceptual, but actually it is direct knowlege with very highly developed panna. A very difficult area and good question. Nina wrote more in this post and Num gives more details under Patisambhidamagga in UP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14156 Perhaps they’ll add more or I’ll try to come back later. metta, Sarah p.s Sukin -maybe you can nudge Num and tell him 'patisambhida' are back on the discussion table. ====== 24800 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:38am Subject: Cooran Weekend 30/31 August, 2003. Hello All, The Cooran weekend was the usual source of spiritual refreshment and sustenance. Azita and I held things up a little at the beginning. She is a member of nursing staff at the Cairns Base Hospital, so naturally I had to give her a cuppa and a short tour of Logan Hospital. Kieran (some will know him previously as Sundara) was also able to come. Lovely to see dsg-ers Andrew, KenH and Steve again - in total, there were eight of us staying for the weekend and one extra dropped in for Sunday morning. The discussions were vigorous and wide ranging, often with everyone speaking at the same time (KenH was the kindly Moderator - maybe a Zen Stick, and a few whacks next time, will help keep order and 'focus the attention'?). I remember thinking at one point "It is marvellous! It is amazing! truly the most abundant rupa is Sound!" Andy Mc. brought his astronomical telescope and tripod and Saturday Night was Mars Watch night. It was fascinating to see the craters/discolourations on its surface, and also on the surface of the moon. No little green Devas dancing there though. The Milky Way, the Southern Cross and the occasional shooting star were blazing when seen from that cold, isolated hillside in the Queensland bush. The discussion on Accumulations was clarifying for me (stimulus was half a dozen posts from the UP from Jon, Larry, Mike and Kom). One question arose out of a quote Larry had used from the Atthasalini at the end of his post no.12544. "In dependence on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the destiny of beings without legs, with two legs, four legs, many legs, VEGETATIVE, spiritual, with perception, without perception, with neither perception nor without perception." Does this mean kamma can cause some beings to become plants, trees or vegetables!? Or does it mean, beings can be born as living beings but with a mind afflicted with a vegetative state? Jim, Suan, and Sarah may be interested to hear that there was interest in discussing supports for lay spiritual practice, and I'm sure this will be a frequent topic at future meetings. We found the old "O.K. there is no control, but there has to be SOME choice" topic was discussed quite heatedly again - The inherent pleasantness/unpleasantness of objects arose, and Anatta, particularly in regard to rebirth/ kamma/nibbana got a mention - as well, there was a feeling expressed by some of not really understanding Dependent Origination. And KenO might be interested to know that there was vigorous discussion, and not necessarily agreement, about Luminous Mind. Reg had brought an article "Relinquishing 'Me' and 'Mine'" from Forest Sangha newsletter, in which The Buddha was quoted as having said, "This mind is naturally radiant and pure, it's only defiled by transitory defilements that come from without." And a quote from Ajahn Chah saying that "It's already peaceful by itself, inherently peaceful, it only moves and shakes when it's contacted ny sense impressions." And a further quote from Ajahn Mun, "This pure, radiant mind is like the sun, and the defilements are like the clouds that come over and obscure the sun.' I hope the others will soon post their thoughts and memories of the weekend's discussions - I'll end for now and hope I haven't rambled on too long - tired and happy ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24801 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:44am Subject: Yahoo getting mixed up... Dear Friends, Both Jon and I are finding our messages for the last couple of days have been mixed up and sometimes quite delayed before reaching the list. Just like the old days! If it happens to yours, just be patient, continue posting as usual and no need to repost if they are slow showing. Metta, Sarah ======= 24802 From: buddhafanclub Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:13am Subject: Bodhisattva in Theravada I am a fan of Gotama Buddha and his teachings. I happened to read the following at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/message/14593?source=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------- *Although the Theravada holds that anybody can be a Bodhisattva, it does notstipulate or* *insist that all must be Bodhisattva which is considered not practical. The decision is left to the* *individual whether to take the Pathof the Sravaka or of the Pratyekabuddha or of the* *Samyaksambuddha. But it is always clearly explained that the state of a Samyaksambuddha is superior and that the other two are inferior. Yet they are not disregarded.* ------------- There are many Buddhists, both bhikkhus and laymen, in Sri Lanka, Myanmar,Thailand and Cambodia which are regarded as Theravada countries, who take the vow or resolution to become Buddhas to save others. They are indeed Bodhisattvas at different levels of development. Thus one may see that in Theravada countries all are not Sravakas. There are Bodhisattvas as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Question I have never been to so called Teravada countries. Do you know any theravadin who take the resolution or vow to become a Buddha around you? Or Have you ever heard of such a living person ? looking forward to hearing from you soon. from ok 24803 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/30/03 8:34:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of > constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary > building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but > simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal > flashings." > > Hi Howard, > > I think the key _name_ here is "phenomenal". No matter how you slice it > a name is a mental event and so has a characteristic of becoming, the > same as a feeling, mental image (meaning), affection, or intention. > However, if I said names exist then I went too far. My intention was > simply to say they are included in the khandhas and have a > characteristic that "becomes". Regarding extremes of "existence" and > "nonexistence" I refer you to a voluminous post by Sarah today on this > subject. Below is a small snippet: > > "First straight from the Sammohavinodanii (commentary to the Vibhanga, > 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka)2281: > > "'iti bhavadi.t.thisannissitaa vaa ti ('so they are either dependent on > the view of existence'): they are either dependent thus on the eternity > view; for it is the eternity view which is here 'the view of > existence'(vibhava-di.t.thi). For owing to the fact that all (wrong) > views are included by the eternity and annihilation views (together), > all these beings who hold (wrong) views are dependent on those two kinds > of (wrong) view. This also is said: 'this world, Kaccaayana, mostly > depends on two things, on existence and non-existence' (Sii17); and > here, 'existence'(atthitaa) is eternity, 'non-existence' is annihilation > (uccheda). This firstly is the habitat of beings that are ordinary men > dependent on the process."" > > Larry (Lllll airrrr eeeeee) > =========================== As I see it, conventional existents arise and cease conventionally, whereas actual existents arise and cease actually, though, of course, not as separate, independent entitites. Ultimately there is no such thing as the tree in my garden, and, thus, there is no tree to arise, change, and cease. Conventionally, there *is* a tree in my garden; it wasn't always there, but grew from seed to sprout to tree, it is changing all the time, and it will eventually wither, die, decay,and utterly cease. What is this entire last scenario? It is actually just a scenario, a story. But it is a well grounded story, the reality of which is an extraordinarily complex structured, patterned, dynamic flow of actual interrelated phenomena that are not merely conventional. All the conventional arising, changing, and ceasing in the "story" is derivative from actual arising, changing, and ceasing, which is exactly what makes the story well grounded. Now what I have said here applies in the same way to names and all other abstractions, although the more abstract the concept, the closer one is to the concept end of the percept-concept spectrum, and, accordingly, the less directly the concept seems to even conventionally partake of the transitoriness of the actualities it subsumes. So, the alleged referents of some concepts such as 'circularity' seem to be unchanging, whereas as a particular circle-percept, such as a ring of dancing people does seem to change (in size, shape, and existence). Such a changing circle is actually a sequence of circle-percepts, each of which is a single thought which sums up a host of actual visual images. It is all hugely complex. Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? Yes - but conventionally. Do they arise, change, and cease? Yes, conventionally - and derivatively, based on the arising, changing, and ceasing of a multitude of interrelated actual phenomena (paramattha dhamma). Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? No - not actually. Do they arise, change,and cease? No, not actually, for they do not actually exist. The middle way of dependent arising - and, BTW, I *love* the Kaccayanagotta sutta - is a truth directly about paramattha dhammas and their conditionality and emptiness. It applies only conventionally and derivatively to conventional entities. With metta, Howard (so-to-speak ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24804 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intelligence or wisdom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, Meanwhile, off for some nice safe dreams after analysing the Pali > dictionary;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, You analyze the Pali dictionary? That would put me to sleep also!!;- ). I will post some more about wonderful and terrible Egypt later; school starts tomorrow and I am quite busy. Stay tuned...and don't be afraid! ;-). Metta, James 24805 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Friend Welcome to the list, and thanks for the interesting question. It raises some points that have not been discussed in great detail so far on this list. --- torloff87048 wrote: > ... > I'm not even sure that I'm asking the right questions here. What > I'm hoping for is someone to lead me through all the cittas, > mind-objects and cetasikas that generally occur during speech. The > more details the better! Take a simple example, like, "I'm going > to the store," and analyze it on the most microscopic level > possible, making whatever assumptions necessary to pin things down. Your question is fine, but it's not one I have the knowledge to really answer ;-)). I'm going to leave the detail to the Abhidhamma experts around here. I'd just like to make some farily general comments to get the discussion started. In the course of uttering a single sentence there would be uncountable experiences through the mind door and each of the sense doors, and each such experience would be part of a process of cittas that includes certain cittas (the javana cittas) that are either kusala or akusala. To my understanding, the vast majority of these experiences/processes of cittas would be mind-door processes (moments of thinking); the sense-door experiences would be relatively few (but still a large number in absolute terms). We can ignore for the moment the bhavanga cittas occurring in between the various processes. Again as I understand it, the vast majority of javana cittas arising during the day, such as 'ordinary' moments of seeing and thinking, are akusala of one kind or another (not necessarily strong akusala, but akusala nonetheless). From this I would extrapolate that even at a moment of doing a 'kusala act' of some kind, there will still be many, many akusala cittas arising among the (relatively few) kusala ones. I don't know if this partly answers your question. Thanks for the interest. Jon 24806 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi ‘Torloff’, Welcome to DSG from me as well. Some of our members, esp. the Abhidhamma enthusiasts, will be delighted to see your very detailed first post. I hope you receive many responses. I’m just going to give a sign-post answer for now;-) --- torloff87048 wrote: > > I wonder if one of you that is a student of the Abhidhamma could help me > understand how to apprehend verbal intimation in strict Abhidhamma > terms. <...> > I'm not even sure that I'm asking the right questions here. What I'm > hoping for is someone to lead me through all the cittas, mind-objects > and cetasikas that generally occur during speech. The more details the > better! <...> Of course you’re asking the right questions. Any questions or comments or answers related to the (Pali) Tipitaka and commentaries are very right;-) As you’ve asked for as many details as possible on this very complex topic, may I recommend you take a look at these past posts, most or all written in a series by Nina translating and adding to material discussed by Abhidhamma teachers in Thailand. Just click on the links and let us know whether they are helpful. There are very few new members to DSG I’d recommend them to, but you’re obviously very familiar with all the terminology. ***** Intimation ( through body and speech) 19056, 19105, 19144, 19194, 19217, 19289, 19364, 19454, 19541 ***** Meanwhile I’d also be glad if we could encourage you to share a few comments about yourself such as which country you’re based in and how you’ve come to have such detailed Abhidhamma knowledge. Greatly looking forward to more of your contributions. Metta, Sarah ====== 24807 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma My off-list response failed, so: : 64.157.4.78 failed after I sent the message. Remote host said: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry your message to torloff87048@y... cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102]. - mta110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com Hi Torloff(?), Great questions, in my opinion, very pertinent to abhidhamma in daily life. I respond off-list because I'm a bare beginner and not even slightly qualified to answer. I look forward to competent responses. Meanwhile: ----- Original Message ----- From: torloff87048 To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma > Does this mean that the cittas which have the original object (the welfare of the > other) are continually arising and falling during the act of speech? Do other cittas > with different objects have to intervene in order to access the individual words and > speak them? As I'm beginning to grasp this (maybe), the answer to both is 'certainly'. The 'welfare' cetasika(s) (alobha-adosa? not sure) may remain predominant throughout the statement but a practically infinite number of other cittas and cetasikas--kusala and akusala--must certainly arise and subside with their respective cittas through all the doors before the statement is finished*. By the way, I think that kusala is very rarely predominant--subtle akusala almost always rules for us puthujjanas. Your other questions are more complicated and I look forward to reading competent responses. I don't remember seeing your address here before--glad to meet you and that you're reading the CMA--looking forward to more. mike *"The life-span of a citta, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na)...is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time that it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind moments can elapse." Bhikku Bodhi in CMA 24808 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:41am Subject: Journey To Nibbana Dear Dhamma Friends, In history, there have been a lot of changes. Every locality has its own history even though it may not have been recorded. History is record of changes. There are many histories as time passes by. In history, there had been a lot of countries, kings, queens, princes, princesses, presidents, prime ministers, leaders, groups, tribes, clangs and so on. Among these groups, there had been huge changes. There had been many political systems. When one arises others fall away. Political systems are also subjected to change. For example, communism when it first arose, seemed to be a strong system. But, later it became nearly extinct. Whatever the history has existed, there has been a community, which has been very strong, united, well-disciplined, great, noble and still serving to people of all origions pointing the right path. This community is Sangha. Sangha maintain Buddha's teachings and doctrines. These great teachings are Dhamma. These Dhamma are extremely precious and ever excel other gems and jewelery. Gems and jewelery are precious because of their rarity. Arising of true Dhamma is an extremely rare instance. These Dhamma were preached by The Buddha, The Blessed One, The Exalted One, The Supreme One, The Enlightened One. To become a Sammasambuddha is extremely difficult. Bodhisattas have to complete their perfections for many many lives. When they were matured enough to attain Magga, they reconsidered every possible thing and with their great Karuna or compassion, they decided to fulfil perfections to become Sammasambuddha. They have been completing perfections even before they receive Vyaditta or Sammasambuddha's prediction of becoming Sammasambuddha. Nine Asenkheyya have to lapse just for their wish. Another seven Asenkheyya have to pass to do determination ( Adhitthana ) to become Sammasambuddha. After Vyaditta, they still have to fulfil perfections for a very very long time. So said that ''To become a Sammasambuddha a Satta has to be able to climb mountains of razors ( sharp knives ) and swim across seas of great fire.'' Anyway, due to their great effort, there have been a great piles of Dhamma, with which each Satta can travel safely on the journey to their total liberation. Liberation means release from any attachment. That totally liberated state is called Nibbana, which is one of ultimate realities. If we can start the journey to Nibbana now, it is not too late to achieve the goal of attaining that entirely peaceful and totally liberated state called Nibbana. May you all start your journey to Nibbana in time. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 24809 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 10 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:44:51 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 10 Meanings of dhamma, no 10. The Saddaniti gives more definitions of dhamma. It explains dhamma as what is correctness, what is suitable: The Saddaniti then explains dhamma as object: < "Mana~nca pa.ticca dhamme ca uppajjati manovi~n~naa.nan"ti-aadiisu visaye. Dependent on the mind-door and objects arises mind-consciousness, in such passages dhamma refers to object.> N: This passage occurs for example in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, XXXV, 107, Loko: the world). The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61: However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used. Mano can stand for mano-dhaatu, mind element, and this includes the citta which is the mind-door. Cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in processes: the eye-door process, the other sense-door processes and the mind-door process. In between these processes bhavangacittas (life-continuum) arise and fall away, and these do not experience an object through one of the six doors. Their function is preserving the continuity in the life of an individual. The last bhavangacitta arising before the mind-door process begins is the mind-door. The mind-door is the means through which citta experiences an object in that process. Thus, returning to the relevant passage: "Mana~nca pa.ticca dhamme ca uppajjati manovi~n~naa.nan"ti.... Dependent on the mind-door and objects arises mind-consciousness... ****** Nina. 24810 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Icaro,Sarah, Larry. an interesting text. op 30-08-2003 20:19 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Katame dhammaa aasavavippayutta saasava N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? Next para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do with aasavas. Thus we have to study further in what sense they are saaasava. You translate: vippayutta as : flow at separate ways. And saasava, you translate: connected with aasava. sampayutta:associated, citta and cetasikas arising together. vippayutta, dissociated: rupa is always vippayutta for nama, they are not closely associated like citta and cetasika. rupa is not associated with asavas but it can also be saasava: involved with asava, the object of asava. Atthasalini : I, p. 64: The objects do not arise at the same time as the aasavas themselves. The word occurring together may be confusing. Coming back to the footnote in Dsg: < saasavas: dhammas proceeding with aasavas, and which have made onself their object (attaanam aaramma.na.m katvaa).> Now attaana.m is not only accusative, it can be gen. or dative pl: for themselves. When accusative: they have made the asava itself object. But why singular? Lots of questions. Next para in Atthasalini makes it clearer, about the knots and floods:< Dhammas which are liable as objects to be overwhelmed by the floods are termed "subject to floods". Only those dhammas which are the objects of floods should be taken.> Or knots (tie or gantha): By the way, in the Book of Analysis aasava is translated as defilement, very confusing so many different translations for one term. Pali is not a luxury. Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 34: the five khandhas as objects of clinging, § 132 : Gocara means the objective field, the object. Dispeller II, p. 40, the same is said about right speech. Now I try again the subco. Nina. 24811 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: subco Vis 8. Subco Vis. no 8. 8. dhammasabhaavapa.tivedho naama pa~n~naaya aave.niko sabhaavo, na tenassaa koci vibhaago labbhatiiti aaha The penetration of the specific nature of dhammas is truly the unique characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa''ti. ³Because of its characteristic of penetrating the individual nature of dhammas it is just so of one kind.² lujjanapalujjana.t.thena loko vuccati va.t.ta.m, tappariyaapannataaya loke niyuttaa, tattha vaa viditaati lokiyaa. Because of the meaning of crumbling away * the world is called the cycle (of birth and death); it (understanding) is engaged with the world, since it is included in it, and there it is known as mundane (understanding). tattha apariyaapannataaya lokato uttaraa utti.n.naati lokuttaraa. Since it is not included in it, it is beyond the world **, it has overcome it, and this means supermundane. lokuttaraapi hi maggasampayuttaa bhaavetabbaa. Supermundane understanding should be brought about by being associated with the Path..... vipassanaapariyaayopi tassaa labbhatevaati lokuttara-ggaha.na.m na virujjhati. (....) attaana.m aaramma.na.m katvaa pavattehi saha aasavehiiti saasavaa, Since it has made itself as object (for them) it proceeds along with the cankers, and this is the meaning of subject to cankers. aaramma.nakara.navasenapi natthi etissaa aasavaati anaasavaa. Also because of the object *** it does not have cankers and this is the meaning of cankerfree. aadi-saddena aasavavippayuttasaasavadukaadiina.m sa"ngaho da.t.thabbo. With the word etc. (coming after ³subject to cankers and free from cankers²) a classification should be seen of canker-free and subject to cankers as a dyad, etc. **** English: The penetration of the specific nature of dhammas is truly the unique characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ³Because of its characteristic of penetrating the individual nature of dhammas it is just so of one kind.² Because of the meaning of crumbling away * the world is called the cycle (of birth and death); it (understanding) is engaged with the world, since it is included in it, and there it is known as mundane (understanding). Since it is not included in it, it is beyond the world **, it has overcome it, and this means supermundane. Supermundane understanding should be brought about by being associated with the Path... Since it has made itself as object (for them) it proceeds along with the cankers, and this is the meaning of subject to cankers. Also because of the object *** it does not have cankers and this is the meaning of cankerfree. With the word etc. (coming after ³subject to cankers and free from cankers²) a classification should be seen as canker-free and subject to cankers as a dyad, etc. **** * lujjati, to crumble has a word association with loko, world. See Kindred Sayings IV, 52, The world. It is impermanent. **There is a word association: between loko, world, uttara, beyond, and lokuttara, supermundane. *** This is nibbaana. Nina. 24812 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Icaro op 31-08-2003 02:33 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > you must take the Noble Path with good > intentions and a well disposed mind to obtain at least > the more basic jhanas. N: ??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover it is extremely difficult. Only very few people can, and at this time? Who knows. Nina. 24813 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? all, as i've understood, everyone can develop jhanas and attain nibbana. to attain nibbana you have to develop the jhanas to its fully. it's difficult to attain jhanas because we do not have a concentrated mind and live with desire and uncontentment. As for a layperson it would be diffucult to attain nibbana, as the mind is often distracted by obstacles. But even a layperson, or anyone can develop jhanas if they can develop an concentrated mind. /Elias > N: ??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. > jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover it is extremely > difficult. Only very few people can, and at this time? Who knows. > Nina. 24814 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:34pm Subject: Search for 'Cause of Rebirth Samsara'- A triviality. Dear Robert, Thanks very much, it is all well put and fits exactly into the correct and very wise way to answer that question. (Please also note: I have change the subject title). You know I actually have come to that conclusion as I scoured many places for the closest answer. It is amazing that you hit on the right answer very quickly. Your answer really refocus or more correctly - draws it to a very sharp & acute focus. To summarize, as long as one understands (I did not use - 'believe' which can mean unreasoned /fanatic trust & belief) 'Samsara (Rebirth Cycle), cause & effect or in a nutshell - Dhamma' are all very real and functioning, focusing on the goal of Nibanna is, what is important. Why & how is it like that? - is only an icing on a cake, so to speak- really unimportant. But we have to be true to ourselves and not to skirt or shelve the question. I believe we do not do that, in search for Nibanna (I almost say - (which I usually do) - search for truth, that is what set me on this question). Also there may or may not be a real answer to it. A person with the arrow /bullet in his body does not question who, why & how the arrow /bullet was shot. Surviving is the foremost. Especially, if on a huge battlefield, how can you tell whose arrow /bullet it is? Maybe, no real answer. What use towards salvation? Nothing or not much. Also (1)'dukkha (suffering)' effect of injury & dying is here - upfront, real & functioning and we know or need to know (point#2, 3 & 4) - (2)the cause (not the very origin-who shot it? A triviality) of this 'dukkha', (3)the cessation of this 'dukkha', (4)the way (the how to) to end 'dukkha'. Thus forming, what I understand as the four noble truths. I think you are very wise and helpful towards my quest and quite pivotal in my life direction setting. I think I will put that question in my backburner or even dump it out altogether, knowing that there may never be any real question and the answer, if ever found, may be of no consequence. Thank you again. Metta Eddie Lou. 24815 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/31/03 8:54:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Again as I understand it, the vast majority of javana cittas arising > during the day, such as 'ordinary' moments of seeing and thinking, > are akusala of one kind or another (not necessarily strong akusala, > but akusala nonetheless). From this I would extrapolate that even at > a moment of doing a 'kusala act' of some kind, there will still be > many, many akusala cittas arising among the (relatively few) kusala > ones. ======================== As much as many of us "modern folk" would tend to balk at this, and call it imbalanced, and pessimistic, I am certain that it is absolutely correct. The very fact that we are "in" samsara, where dukkha is central, requires that at the level of actual experience, the paramatthic level, the three poisons must be primary, and most kammic states must be akusala. Because of this fact, it is truly a great boon to us that the possibility of change, radical change, is still open to us at any split-second moment. By studying and contemplating the Dhamma, and by engaging in cultivation as we (individually) understand the Buddha to have instructed, we plant the seeds any one of which may blossom into the tree of freedom when conditions are right. Then it doesn't matter that the overwhelming aggregate of states are akusala - the one moment of liberating wisdom saves the day. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24816 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Nina: N: "??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. > jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover > it is extremely > difficult. Only very few people can, and at this > time? Who knows." ----------------------------------------------------- Nina, I am just taking on account the first class of Jhaanas - connected with pitti-sukhi at a level of discourse. I was trying to stand that the mere survival desiring can give us an illusion of insight - a poor dog anxious to receive an aasava´s tasteful bone... but at the end there´s no bone and no giving at all coming from Aasava - the matter of the question is at an other level of Pañña. "...And the poor dog gets none". And perhaps he becomes a mahayanist by heart! As a matter of fact, taking the Noble Path is a serious decision , to be take with the best of our thoughts and feelings. Even the more common Jhaana totally imbricated with a mundane pitti-sukhi viewpoint maybe is far beyond our forces. To be a Sukha-vipassaka is more adequate to human minds at present age! (And I can remember much more nursery rhymes...hahah!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24817 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Howard, I can agree with this: H: "Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? Yes - but conventionally. Do they arise, change, and cease? Yes, conventionally - and derivatively, based on the arising, changing, and ceasing of a multitude of interrelated actual phenomena (paramattha dhamma)." I would further say that almost all concepts are mis-identifications in the sense that identity is identical. Further, concepts *appear* to be, in some sense, outside a process of becoming. Clearly the Buddha's teaching is based on the understanding of impermanence; dukkha and anatta are predicated on that. Can we agree that the root of this problem of dukkha lies with sanna? Sanna is unable to penetrate the general characteristics, impermanence in particular, and so fails to correctly understand experience. The middle level of understanding, "consciousness", does a little better but doesn't actually understand the individual characteristics, doesn't _see_ impermanence. Put another way, I would say sanna understands experience _as_ concept, "consciousness" understands experience _with_ concept, and panna understands experience without ( or with less) concept, in other words nibbana, the signless. Larry 24818 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Hello Elias, You may be interested in this short article: "Vipassana & Jhana: What The Masters Say" by Ven. Visuddhacara "Renowned and experienced masters of Buddhist meditation are generally agreed on the point that Jhana is not necessary or a prerequisite for Vipassana Meditation. For example, in the book Living Buddhist Masters (Formerly published under BPS, this book has since been retitled Living Dharma by Shambala) by Jack Kornfield, all the 12 masters written about, clearly stated or indicated that one can do Vipassana without cultivating any Jhana. Some teach Vipassana relying only on Khanika Samadhi or Access Concentration (upacara samadhi). Others teach both Samatha, Jhana and Vipassana but emphasised that one need not attain Jhana to do Vipassana. Yogis can switch to Vipassana after attaining a moderate level of concentration which is sufficient to overcome The Five Hindrances. Furthermore, most cautioned against attachment or stagnation in Jhana and emphasised the need to do Vipassana. Some of these Masters too have been monks from their early youth and are adept not only in meditation but also scholarship. They have studied the Tipitaka, Commentaries and Sub-commentaries in the original Pali and thus speak with the authority of both the scriptures and personal practice and experience. Some have practised in forests for many years and are well-versed with both Samatha and Vipassana." The Masters quoted are: Achaan Chah, Achaan Dhammadaro, Achaan Jumnien, Achaan Buddhadasa, Achaan Naeb, and Venerable Matara Sri Ñanarama Mahathera. http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/zennun/vip-jhana.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > all, > > as i've understood, everyone can develop jhanas and attain nibbana. > to attain nibbana you have to develop the jhanas to its fully. > it's difficult to attain jhanas because we do not > have a concentrated mind and live with desire and uncontentment. > > As for a layperson it would be diffucult to attain nibbana, > as the mind is often distracted by obstacles. But even a layperson, > or anyone can develop jhanas if they can develop an concentrated mind. > > /Elias > > > > N: ??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. > > jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover it is extremely > > difficult. Only very few people can, and at this time? Who knows. > > Nina. 24819 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on that ground? Larry 24820 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Chapter 8 The Eradication of Akusala Kamma by the Sotåpanna Introduction [1] There are ten unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma-pathas, accomplished through body, speech and mind: killing, stealing, sexual misbehaviour, lying, slandering, rude speech, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill will and wrong view (ditthi). Killing, stealing and sexual misbehaviour are accomplished through the body. Lying, slandering, rude speech and frivolous talk are accomplished through speech. Covetousness, ill will and wrong view are accomplished through the mind. The akusala kamma-patha of covetousness is the intention to obtain with dishonest means what belongs to someone else. The akusala kamma-patha which is ill will is the intention to harm or hurt someone else. As to wrong view, there are many kinds of it, and only three are akusala kamma-patha through the mind: 1. The belief that there is no cause for the existence of beings and no cause for their purity or corruption (ahetuka-ditthi). 2. The belief that there are no good and bad deeds which produce results (akiriyå-ditthi). 3. The annihilation view: the belief that there is no result of kamma and no further life after death (natthika-ditthi). There are different degrees of these akusala kamma-pathas, depending on the presence of specific constituent factors as explained by the ³Atthasåliní² (Book I, Part III, Ch 5). These factors are different in the case of each of the akusala kamma-pathas. When all factors of a particular akusala kamma are present it is a ³completed akusala kamma-patha² and thus a serious offense. This can produce an unhappy rebirth as a result. We read about slandering (Atthasåliní, 99, 100): ŒSlander¹ means calumnious speech which, by being said to another, reduces to nothing the love which that person, or the speaker bears at his own heart to a third person... The volition of one with a corrupt mind, producing the bodily and vocal effort to sow the seed of discord among others, or to endear oneself to others is termed the volition of calumnious speech. It is a smaller or greater offence, according as the virtue of the person whom he separates is smaller or greater. There are four constituent factors of this crime: (1) Other persons to be divided; (2) the purpose: Œthey will be separated,¹ or the desire to endear oneself to another: ŒI shall become dear and intimate¹; (3) the corresponding effort; (4) the communication. But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to a complete course; it does so only when there is rupture. As we shall see, different akusala kamma-pathas are eradicated when the subsequent stages of enlightenment are attained. Slandering is completely eradicated at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. However, at the first stage of enlightenment, at the stage of the stream-enterer, the sotåpanna, this kind of akusala is not a completed action which could produce an unhappy rebirth. The sotåpanna cannot commit akusala kamma that could produce an unhappy rebirth. ****** Issue of Analysis: Can the sotåpanna still engage in slandering? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: the sotåpanna has eradicated slandering with the intention to cause division among people. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. Manorathapúraní, Commentary to the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Threes, Ch 2, §15, The wheelright. 2. Visuddhimagga XXII, 75. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: The Commentary to the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Threes, Ch 2, §15, ³The wheelright², deals with the eradication of unwholesome courses of action (kamma-patha) by the path-consciousness of the subsequent stages of enlightenment. Slandering is eradicated by the path-consciousness of the sotåpanna. We read: ³... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path-consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. Two kinds of unwholesome course of action which are harsh speech and ill will are eradicated by the path-consciousness of the anågåmí (non-returner who has attained the third stage of enlightenment). Two kinds of unwholesome course of action which are covetousness and idle speech are eradicated by the path-consciousness of the arahat.² The Visuddhimagga XXII, 75 (Purification by Knowledge and Vision) states: ³In the case of unprofitable courses of action, killing living things, taking what is not given, sexual misconduct, false speech (lying) and wrong view are eliminated by the first knowledge (of the sotåpanna). The three, namely, malicious speech (slandering), harsh speech and ill will are eliminated by the third knowledge (of the anågåmí). Gossip and covetousness are eliminated by the fourth knowledge (of the arahat).² It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not engage in slandering which can divide others, because he has eradicated all akusala kamma that can cause rebirth in an unhappy plane. He has also eradicated jealousy and stinginess. However, sometimes the sotåpanna should say what is true for the benefit of others without there being the unwholesome intention of using speech which could cause division among others. However, others could mistakenly take this for speech that causes division because it may seem to be slandering. Moreover, the sotåpanna can still speak with aversion, dosa, since he has not eradicated aversion. Footnote: 1. I wrote the Introduction. Nina. 24821 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting > your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on > that ground? .... Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a conventional manner of speech. Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. Metta, Sarah ====== 24822 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Elias: Elias: " as i've understood, everyone can develop jhanas and > attain nibbana. > to attain nibbana you have to develop the jhanas to > its fully. > it's difficult to attain jhanas because we do not > have a concentrated mind and live with desire and > uncontentment. > > As for a layperson it would be diffucult to attain > nibbana, > as the mind is often distracted by obstacles. But > even a layperson, > or anyone can develop jhanas if they can develop an > concentrated mind." ------------------------------------------------------ It can be a very long sequence of "if", Elias... even the more simple Jhaana can be very hard even to the average trained human mind. Keeping your mind focused on a Jhaana stream of consciousness - even a basic pitti-sukhi Jhaana! - on matras and matras it´s more harder than it seems. To be a Sukha-Vipassaka is a goal more easy to attain... and gives good results also! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24823 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:24am Subject: mice saver All, Dear friends, And what is wise-compassion? As a man saw a mice there high on the mountain top, unable to move, unable to drink and eat. The mice would die there if not saved. As a man saw that mice, and climbed that high, to then carry the mice in his hand, calmy and carefully down to the ground, so the mice now could, walk, run, drink and eat and no longer be in a deadly situation on the top of the cliff. As this man who saved the mice, would say, "I did not offer my life to save that mice" but instead with a wise mind said, "I used my life to save that mice". Such is the form wise-compassion. /Elias 24824 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? Next para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do with aasavas. H Nina, The mundane panna of an arahant is also free from asavas because they have all ceased for him. Larry 24825 From: Andrew Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Similes of the Snake and Raft Hello All Christine has already posted an excellent account of the latest Cooran Dhamma discussion weekend. I would like to thank everyone for coming - especially Azita who had to travel all the way from Cairns. Dhamma was mixed with astronomy thanks to Andy's telescope on Saturday night. I was very excited at seeing the canals on Mars, only to be told that there was a hair on the lens! A lesson in visible object and mind object? On Saturday, I led a discussion on the Simile of the Snake Sutta (which also includes the simile of the raft). Alaggadupama Sutta. I noted that there is a translation discrepancy about the "dhamma" that is to be treated like a raft and relinquished after "crossing over". One source says it means good states/serenity, while Bhikkhu Bodhi says it means the Teachings in toto. If anyone has any insight on this point, please do share it. Metta Andrew 24826 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Icaro, No no no. This completely wrong, more than wrong, beyond wrong, absolutely wrong. Asavas are not a way to cultivate panna. Rather, panna is defiled and misunderstood by being an object of asavas. When the insight knowledge of rise and fall first arises the implications of this insight are not fully realized. This is because this insight is still subject to bewilderment (avijjaasava). The implications that are revealed in the other insight knowledges have yet to be worked out. Similaly, there is a survival instinct (bhavaasava), gross or subtle, in everyone but an arahant. This will taint whatever insight may arise. Larry ---------------------- Dear Larry: larry:" I take "sense desire" to include mental satisfaction at intellectual nicety. Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal becoming of insight?" ---------------------------------------------- Of course Nina can take this subject at a proper way, Larry...but only think about the old nursery rhyme ( about bhavaasava and insight): "Old Mother Hubbard went to her cupboard To give her poor dog a bone. When she got there The cupboard was bare And so the poor dog has none." Mother of whom we are talking about ???? It´s only the same question: may the bare survival desire to be sufficient to make one poor dog (or another proper animal) gets insight of the higher values of existence ? At first analysis yes... the bhavaasava can conduct one to the first glimpse of insight. But Aasavas are aasavas: people gets nothing for nothing... you must take the Noble Path with good intentions and a well disposed mind to obtain at least the more basic jhanas. ---------------------------------------------- Larry: "Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. I'm not sure how to characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any ideas?" ---------------------------------------------- It sounds strange such mundane traits taking a serious decision to get pañña. Mettaya, Ícaro Larry 24827 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Thinking can be known. I am not sure if all thought is conceptual (maybe), but I don't see how there can be a concept that is not thought. Are you saying there is such a dhamma as an unthought concept? If so, I agree unthought concepts can't be known and are not even objects of consciousness but conceptual thoughts are conditioned and conditionS for the arising of other dhammas. To say there is no keyboard is to deny my experience of reading, at the very least. To say "keyboard" is an inaccurate description of the group of rupas and namas called "keyboard" is true. I think the real issue though is the semblance of permanence concepts carry. Concepts are general, not particular in meaning. But they are particular individual constructs in themselves. Their general nature hides impermanence. I would agree that generalities only exist as generalities but generalities are formed and I think there is quite a bit to know about them. Larry ------------------------- Sarah: Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a conventional manner of speech. Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. 24828 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah! Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello and thought this would be a good place to land. Although I can't jump into the middle of a thread with anyI see the conflict between experience and concept is still brewing; it guess it's more or less eternal. : ) I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a convention, as you say, and not a reality. Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and what is not. Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting > > your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on > > that ground? > .... > > Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other > realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', > 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. > > Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely > more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the > concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a > conventional manner of speech. > > Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > 24829 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:54pm Subject: Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Friends, Thanks for your interest in these questions about verbal intimation. I look forward to hearing more about it from you. Perhaps it will help further the discussion if I sharpen the question even more: What is the correct apprehension (through the Abhidhamma) of the reality, knowledge and use of grammar in speech? We all know how to speak in grammatical sentences, and for the most part we can tell a grammatical sentence from an ungrammatical one. Something is going on in the mind to make this happen. What is it? To put it another way, what is the direct, experiential knowledge of speech on a word-by-word, or even syllable-by-syllable, basis? Presumably, when the Buddha spoke he had the capability of apprehending every process taking place in his mind. If we could ask him, what would Buddha tell us about the processes which (seemingly) invariably give rise to grammatical sentences and not ungrammatical ones? This is not so much a question about kusala and akusala factors as a question about a mental process taking place regardless of the presence of kusala or akusala factors. Perhaps I could add some thoughts of my own on this subject. At best, these are intelligent speculations, since, try as I might, I have never been able to directly observe the formation of words and sentences in my mind. From a western scientific perspective, "grammar" is an object that has an independent existence and can be studied to determine its properties. I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but it is hard to deny that grammar is "something" and that all languages seem to share it in a fundamental way. As I understand current scientific belief, there supposedly exists an abstract structure, called the "Universal Grammar," from which each particular language derives its grammar by the selection of a relatively small number of choices, like whether the verb comes before or after the subject in a sentence. If this turns out to be true, then a wonderful question for Abhidhamma students is how does t 24830 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi all, I have some questions about this also. How does one classify writing? Is there a functional, morally neutral, intimation? It says that intimation expresses intention. What about expressing understanding? I would think a wholesome "I'm going to the store" would not only intimate the intention of going to the store but also the intention to communicate, thereby minimising possible misunderstanding. Also there would be a mindfulness of the sound and manner of expression of one's voice. What else? Larry 24831 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: Search for 'Cause of Rebirth Samsara'- A triviality. --- Dear Eddie, The credit all goes to you. It shows that clinging to view is weak. I think this understanding is part of sacca-nana the first round of development of wisdom. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks very much, it is all well put and fits exactly > into the correct and very wise way to answer that > question. (Please also note: I have change the subject > title). You know I actually have come to that > conclusion as I scoured many places for the closest > answer. It is amazing that you hit on the right answer > very quickly. Your answer really refocus or more > correctly - draws it to a very sharp & acute focus. > To summarize, as long as one understands (I did not > use - 'believe' which can mean unreasoned /fanatic > trust & belief) 'Samsara (Rebirth Cycle), cause & > effect or in a nutshell - Dhamma' are all very real > and functioning, focusing on the goal of Nibanna is, > what is important. Why & how is it like that? - is > only an icing on a cake, so to speak- really > unimportant. 24832 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/31/03 5:32:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I can agree with this: > > H: "Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? Yes - but > conventionally. Do they arise, change, and cease? Yes, conventionally - > and derivatively, based on the arising, changing, and ceasing of a > multitude of interrelated actual phenomena (paramattha dhamma)." > > I would further say that almost all concepts are mis-identifications in > the sense that identity is identical. Further, concepts *appear* to be, > in some sense, outside a process of becoming. Clearly the Buddha's > teaching is based on the understanding of impermanence; dukkha and > anatta are predicated on that. > > Can we agree that the root of this problem of dukkha lies with sanna? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say that it is sa~n~na that is what is directly affected by ignorance, and that despoiled perception is the beginning of illusion and dukkha. --------------------------------------------------- > Sanna is unable to penetrate the general characteristics, impermanence > in particular, and so fails to correctly understand experience. The > middle level of understanding, "consciousness", does a little better but > doesn't actually understand the individual characteristics, doesn't > _see_ impermanence. Put another way, I would say sanna understands > experience _as_ concept, "consciousness" understands experience _with_ > concept, and panna understands experience without ( or with less) > concept, in other words nibbana, the signless. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, this isn't bad, provided that by 'consciousness' you mean mental consciousness (manovi~n~nana). ----------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24833 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi 'Torloff' and all New Members, The end of your message didn't reach us with the 'wonderful question';-) Grateful if you'd check and repost it. Also, we ask everyone here to sign off with a name we can use to address you with, (preferably a real name) to avoid confusion and an opening to make it clear who is being addressed as you've done here. Thx. Mike, very glad to see your response on list;-) Good comments, hope everyone will encourage you to keep sharing them with us all;-) Metta, Sarah ====== --- torloff87048 wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Thanks for your interest in these questions about verbal intimation. [....] > If this turns out to be true, then a wonderful question for > Abhidhamma students is how does t > ??? 24834 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Sarah, Thanks for taking the time to gather the references to past posts on verbal and bodily intimation. I intend to read through them. In response to your request, here's a brief biographical sketch. I live in the United States in the Pacific Northwest. My interest in the Tipitaka arose only in the last six months, but it follows a long history (20 years) of meditative practice in what I now know was a home-grown version of the bare insight approach to mindfulness. Without the Dhamma to guide me I wandered quite a bit and didn't make a whole lot of progress until recently (except perhaps in training myself to tolerate the discomfort that arises from watching a deluded mind run itself around in circles.) My original motivation for this practice was to find relief from painful physical symptoms that had no obvious organic cause. I was pretty sure that the root cause of these problems was in my mind, so I set about trying to resolve them by observing my mind and its effects on my health and well-being. That sounds simple, but as I'm sure many of you can affirm, it is no easy matter for a deluded mind to discover its own delusions and directly see how they give rise to suffering. Nevertheless, for 20 years I never waivered in my belief that somewhere hidden inside the suffering I was experiencing was the truth about that suffering and the means to relieving it. My exposure to Buddhism during this time was fairly limited. I read the standard sort of popular books that one finds in American bookstores- mostly modern, Western Zen Buddhist kinds of things. This wasn't very helpful to me. My temperment suits me to a practice of bare insight meditation and not much of anything else. At the time I knew nothing about Theraveda Buddhism and the Tipitaka, so I had little to guide me on the path I was taking. Nevertheless, I did make some progress. This culminated in a breakthrough about two years ago when, on a limited basis, I was able to apprehend my suffering in a new way. What I came to suspect was that by asking my mind to interpret my suffering, I was only giving rise to delusional beliefs about the suffering. But what if I used that delusion to my advantage? Namely, I would say within myself, "My mind says such-and such about my suffering. This is probably false. What does my suffering say about itself? Does it say the opposite of what my mind is saying?" In this way I was able to encourage a direct apprehension of the suffering as it really was, not as my deluded mind misapprehended it. This led to a truly miraculous transformation that is still ongoing. I'll try to describe it, but I confess it's a subtle thing and I have not had much success so far in explaining it to others. The key has been this ability to "listen to my suffering in its own voice." That is, not what my mind says about my suffering, but what my suffering says about itself. What I've found is that when heard in this way, suffering is actually revulsion for the unwholesome mental activity that created it. I'm not talking about a knowledge-based understanding of how suffering arises. I'm talking about a direct experience of the suffering as it really is. Sort of like the direct experience of pain if one put one's hand in a fire. Whatever the original reason for putting one's hand in the fire, that temptation will never arise again. Similarly, once suffering is apprehended and experienced as revulsion for the mental activity causing it, then the temptation to engage in that mental activity ceases to arise. That's the miracle. It is the "remainderless fading away" of unwholesome mental states. At the time I made this breakthrough, I still had not been exposed to Theraveda Buddhism or the Tipitaka. But in searching for teachings that corresponded to my experience, I was eventually led to the Sutta on The Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and from there into the whole Tipitaka. These books describe exactly what I have been experiencing and lead me further and further along the path to the end of suffering. I've been gobbling them up and have continued to make a lot of progress in eliminating unwholesome states. Because of my tempermental leaning towards bare insight meditation, I particularly love the Abhidhamma. It is surely one of the most astonishing revelations of truth ever recorded. Not only that, but it really works. Toby 24835 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thinking can be known. I am not sure if all thought is conceptual > (maybe), .... Yes, by definition;-) .... but I don't see how there can be a concept that is not thought. > Are you saying there is such a dhamma as an unthought concept? .... No ..... If so, I > agree unthought concepts can't be known and are not even objects of > consciousness but conceptual thoughts are conditioned and conditionS for > the arising of other dhammas. .... The thiniking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are conditioned. Only paramattha dhammas (except nibbana of course) are conditioned. Thoughts are not included in the khandhas. It’s true that as arammana paccaya (object condition) or upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) that concepts or thoughts can be condition. Sounds illogical, but it isn’t. .... To say there is no keyboard is to deny my > experience of reading, at the very least. .... No. ..... To say "keyboard" is an > inaccurate description of the group of rupas and namas called "keyboard" > is true. ... It’s accurate conventionally speaking as Howard said, but not ‘actually’. .... I think the real issue though is the semblance of permanence > concepts carry. Concepts are general, not particular in meaning. But > they are particular individual constructs in themselves. Their general > nature hides impermanence. I would agree that generalities only exist as > generalities but generalities are formed and I think there is quite a > bit to know about them. ..... Only by more thinking, not by direct understanding;-) See the extract from the latest installment from the Maharaulavada sutta. The aggregates include only rupa,vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana khandhas. ..... Glad to keep talking. This thread is being given priority! Also am appreciating your discussion with Howard Metta, Sarah ====== From Nina’s Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B. series: 9 B Relevant sutta passage: [...] "Rahula, whatever form, - past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, base or exalted, whether it is far or near, - all form should be seen as it really is with right wisdom in such a way: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me". "Form only, Lord? Form only, Blessed One?' "Also feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, Rahula, as well as form." [``ruupampi, raahula, vedanaapi, raahula, sa~n~naapi, raahula, sa"nkhaaraapi, raahula, vi~n~naa.nampi, raahulaa''ti.] Commentary: tattha ya.mki~nci ruupantiaadiini sabbaakaarena visuddhimagge khandhaniddese vitthaaritaani. Here, as to the words, ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m, whatever form (material phenomena), these are explained in every way in the ‘Visuddhimagga’,’Description of the Aggregates’ (Ch XIV). ================================ 24836 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:28pm Subject: Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma (Repost of msg #24829) Hi All, This is a repost of a previous message that got cut off for some reason. Are there length limitations I should know about? Also, does anyone know why the word wrap looks good in the window for posting the message, but is messed up on the actual post? I'm cutting and pasting from a Pocket Word document. Is there a better way to do it so the final post is more legible? Thanks, Toby ______________________ Dear Friends, Thanks for your interest in these questions about verbal intimation. I look forward to hearing more about it from you. Perhaps it will help further the discussion if I sharpen the question even more: What is the correct apprehension (through the Abhidhamma) of the reality, knowledge and use of grammar in speech? We all know how to speak in grammatical sentences, and for the most part we can tell a grammatical sentence from an ungrammatical one. Something is going on in the mind to make this happen. What is it? To put it another way, what is the direct, experiential knowledge of speech on a word-by-word, or even syllable-by-syllable, basis? Presumably, when the Buddha spoke he had the capability of apprehending every process taking place in his mind. If we could ask him, what would Buddha tell us about the processes which (seemingly) invariably give rise to grammatical sentences and not ungrammatical ones? This is not so much a question about kusala or akusala factors as it about the processes taking place regardless of the presence of kusala or akusala factors. Perhaps I could add some thoughts of my own on this subject. At best, these are intelligent speculations, since, try as I might, I have never been able to directly observe the formation of words and sentences in my mind. From a western scientific perspective, "grammar" is an object that has an independent existence and can be studied to determine its properties. I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but it is hard to deny that grammar is "something" and that all languages seem to share it in a fundamental way. As I understand current scientific belief, there supposedly exists an abstract structure, called the "Universal Grammar," from which each particular language derives its grammar by the selection of a relatively small number of choices, like whether the verb comes before or after the subject in a sentence. If this turns out to be true, then a wonderful question for Abhidhamma students is how does this structure arise? Language and the mind are so intimately connected that it seems as if the fundamental structure of one must reflect the fundamental structure of the other. If the fundamental structure of the mind is Dependent Arising, understood in all the detail of the Abhidhamma, then perhaps the fundamental structure of language is Dependent Arising as well? This leads to the bold speculation that Dependent Arising and the Universal Grammar are one and the same thing, only apprehending different objects and applying different labels to them. This leads to all kinds of other interesting observations. For example, the dry language of the Abhidhamma often sounds just like the dry language of grammar, e.g., there are so many types of this or that citta or cetasika, just like there are so many types of this or that part of speech or type of phrase. Or again, if Dependent Arising is the governing law of all phenomenon, and the governing law of language is Universal Grammar, then to say that Dependent Arising and Universal Grammar are disguised versions of the same thing is to point out that the universe is self-similar: The part of the universe that is "language" has the same complexity and governing law as the whole universe itself. And doesn't that seem to be the way it is with the mind? Whatever we can experience in the mind (excepting perhaps Nibbana) has a verbal counterpart once it is directly apprehended by the mind. And that verbal counterpart is itself another experience of the mind. So that the world of apprehended and described experience is both a part of the whole world of experience and equal to it in complexity and detail. That said, I should add by way of honest self-disclosure that, after several years of trying to make sense of it, I now apprehend these speculations as delusional and causing suffering! The problem is most certainly not with the Abhidhamma. The problem is with western scientific belief. There is no "Universal Grammar" of language just like there is no "Unified Field Theory" of physics. The search for them is delusional, based ultimately on a misapprehension of the world (near and far) as permanent, non-suffering and containing self (i.e. a controlling element). Language and grammar are dependently arisen, conditioned phenomenon, just like hands, eyes and thoughts are, subject to impermanence, change and passing away. Or are they? At the very least, it remains a valid question to ask for a direct, experiential apprehension of the formation of words and sentences in the mind. Something is going on there that is not at all obvious. Whatever truthful can be said about that experience is still of interest to me. Toby 24837 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bodhisattva in Theravada Dear Friend, Welcome to DSG. Many thanks for your post and questions. --- buddhafanclub wrote: > I have never been to so called Teravada countries. > > Do you know any theravadin who take the resolution or vow to become a > Buddha around you? > > Or Have you ever heard of such a living person ? .... Someone might make this resolution, but according to the texts it won’t be of any use unless very particular and unusual conditions are present, including the presence of a live Buddha before whom the resolution must be made. As Htoo just wrote: H: “To become a Sammasambuddha is extremely difficult. Bodhisattas have to complete their perfections for many many lives. When they were matured enough to attain Magga, they reconsidered every possible thing and with their great Karuna or compassion, they decided to fulfil perfections to become Sammasambuddha. They have been completing perfections even before they receive Vyaditta or Sammasambuddha's prediction of becoming Sammasambuddha. Nine Asenkheyya have to lapse just for their wish. Another seven Asenkheyya have to pass to do determination ( Adhitthana ) to become Sammasambuddha. After Vyaditta, they still have to fulfil perfections for a very very long time. So said that ''To become a Sammasambuddha a Satta has to be able to climb mountains of razors ( sharp knives ) and swim across seas of great fire.''> ***** More spefically still, we read about all the special conditions - human, male, ripe for enlightenment, in the presence of a living Buddha, gone forth, obtained the 8 attainments and 5 super-knowledges, special sacrifice and great resolve that are essential for becoming a Bodhisatta. For more details, you may like to review these posts, mostly by Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18577 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22341 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22428 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22462 ***** Please share a little with us about your background and as I just mentioned to another new member, we’d appreciate it if you would kindly make it clear who you are addressing (even if it’s ‘All’) and sign off with your preferably real name. It makes it easier for us all. No need to be shy;-) Please let us know your thoughts on these comments and anything more about your interest in this topic. Metta, Sarah ====== 24838 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah! Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello and thought this would be a good place to land. Although I can't jump into the middle of a thread with anyI see the conflict between experience and concept is still brewing; it guess it's more or less eternal. : ) I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a convention, as you say, and not a reality. Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and what is not. Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting > > your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on > > that ground? > .... > > Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other > realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', > 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. > > Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely > more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the > concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a > conventional manner of speech. > > Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > 24839 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Simple at Cooran; was: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Hi Sarah, Jim and all, Thanks for the use of your 'simply living' conversation, it was a big hit. > > Sarah and Jim, your "simple living" conversation would > > make a great discussion paper. I might simply print out the > > latest message (24671), if you don't mind. > .... > Classic! You're obviously THE expert on simple 'simply living';-) > BUT, I'll make a deal - you have to report back to us in detail (or > delegate at the very least It will be a pleasure. I have been delegated a very interesting question on the kilesa-destroying function of the Eight-fold Path. But that will have to wait until Azita has posted Chittapala's essay. While I was driving to Cooran, I listened to Paul Simon's Gracelands CD. I remembered how at first, I was unable to make out some of the lyrics; in particular, there was a line which sounded like, "The dominant ego." I knew that couldn't be right but sang along with those words many times before, eventually, finding the lyrics inside the CD case. The right words to the line were, "We come and we go." (The following line, by the way, is "That's a thing that I keep in the back of my head.") As I listened on the way to Cooran, it occurred to me that the words were crystal clear; how could I have mistaken "We come and we go" for anything else? In particular, it didn't sound remotely like, "The dominant ego." Anyway, the first discussion topic of the weekend (arising from Chitttapala's essay), was 'the meaning of the Middle Way.' There was the usual discussion about self-indulgence versus self-denial, eternity belief versus annihilation belief, choice versus no choice (don't mention that to Christine), control versus no control and so on. Whenever I remembered 'nama and rupa,' the meaning of the Middle Way instantly became clear. Just like Paul Simon's lyrics, it couldn't be mistaken for anything else. It certainly couldn't be mistaken for, "Do I exist or do I not exist." The same thing happened throughout the weekend, just as it happens here in dsg. Arguments in favour of changing environmental conditions and creating suitable mind states can make a lot of sense, conventionally. Little wonder we easily confuse them with the Middle Way. But then, thankfully, we remember the namas and rupas of the present moment and the way becomes clear again. We can waste our lives 'trying' to practise the Middle Way. We can think, "There's a little too much self- indulgence here, I need more self-mortification . . . Woops, too much mortification, a tad more indulgence and I should be right in the middle! . . No a bit more . . ." That sort of practice is not the Middle Way. Nor is the contemplation, "Do I exist? Do I not exist? Do I both exist and not exist? Do I neither exist nor not exist?" To find the Middle Way we learn about nama and rupa. Seen from the outside, that lacks the romance of formalised practices but not from the inside. Nama and rupa are all there is; when we remember that, they cease to be dry, academic subjects -- learning more about them IS the Middle Way. Kind regards, Ken H 24840 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:18pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) - correction... Sorry, I left out a word or two in my post. This is the hopefully corrected version..... Rob Ep. ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Hi Sarah! > Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello > and thought this would be a good place to land. Although I can't jump > into the middle of a thread with any certainty, I see the conflict between > experience and concept is still brewing; I guess it's more or less > eternal. : ) > > I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and > see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard > to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental > construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and > see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have > any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness > with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the > next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a > convention, as you say, and not a reality. > > Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting > me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and > what is not. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================================ 24841 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, S: "The thiniking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are conditioned. Only paramattha dhammas (except nibbana of course) are conditioned. Thoughts are not included in the khandhas. It's true that as arammana paccaya (object condition) or upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) that concepts or thoughts can be condition. Sounds illogical, but it isn't." L: If thoughts are not included in the khandhas then it seems to me that turns a blind eye to a lot of experience. I've been thinking about concepts all day. Are you saying that simply didn't happen? As for concepts not being conditioned, I bet the name "dhammastudygroup" was formed by accumulations and conditions. Larry 24842 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Nina (Larry & Icaro), Difficult as you say. I’ve also pulled out a few texts, but I’m not sure I can be of any help. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Katame dhammaa aasavavippayutta saasava > N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected > (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? > Next para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do > with > aasavas. > > Thus we have to study further in what sense they are saaasava. .... As well as ‘involved with asava, the object of asava.’ as you give many examples for, I wonder if in some contexts, asava is used rather like anusaya as referring to (latent) taint, i.e with all cittas except for lokuttara and arahant’s as Larry said. Just an idea. .... > The objects do not arise at the same time as the aasavas themselves. The > word occurring together may be confusing. .... This is why I wonder. ..... > Coming back to the footnote in Dsg: < saasavas: dhammas proceeding with > aasavas, and which have made onself their object (attaanam aaramma.na.m > katvaa).> > Now attaana.m is not only accusative, it can be gen. or dative pl: for > themselves. When accusative: they have made the asava itself object. > But > why singular? .... ??? (because of) its object,accompanied by asava - the meaning of subject to cankers. contrasting with object of lokuttara cittas which is nibbana, therefore supramundane, no asava. ***** M117 “ "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. ... "And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints [aasava], partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.” Jon wrote a helpful post on this, imho, discussing the meaning as referring to mundane and supramundane rt view: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17539 I’ll quote a part in case the link doesn’t work for you: ”The distinction relates to the difference between the mundane and the supramundane versions of the path factor. In brief, both the mundane and the supramundane path factors mentioned are a support for supramundane right concentration, but in different ways. The mundane path factors are a support in that they lead eventually to the supramundane; the supramundane ones are a support in that they accompany each other at supramundane moments. But in each case, right view is the leader ('comes first').” ***** Vism XX11, 56 “Cankers (aasava): as far as (aa) change-of-lineage [in the case of consciousness] and as far as (aa) the acme of becoming [in the case of the kinds of becoming that is to say the fourth immaterial state,] there are exudatios (savana) owing to the [formed nature of the]object...” etc see note 15 to this: “Pm only says ‘ “Exudations” (savana) because of occurring [due to], svanato (‘because of exuding’) is because of flowing out as the filth of defilement.” **** Under anusaya, not merely a latent tendency (Guide to Abhid Pit p78, 139). Maybe also asava, not merely an arising of defilement??? **** Shv1571 quoting on Rt Speech as you mentioned from M suttas. This is like M117 about rt speech subject to cankers (sasaasava), brings merit and worldly results and supramundane, not subject to cankers (anaasava) and factor of 8fold path. I took the first to refer to non-eradication of kilesa, i.e tendency to kilesa whilst rt speech and other mundane path factors are arising in these contexts. Also Shv 445 and 571 **** SN 111,47 has the same passage about the aggregates subject to clinging referring to that which is tainted (sasaasava) ***** Nina, no need to be polite if you don’t think any of these comments help. Pls continue with your sub-com translations, just leaving aside or leaving gaps for any difficult areas. They may become clearer later. When we spoke to B.Bodhi, he stressed he wasn’t a scholar with his Pali and just does his best with what he has to hand (sometimes not all the Pali texts). Otherwise nothing would ever get distributed or published in his case. I’ll also mention to him that you’re working on this to see if he has any interest in looking at it or if anyone else has had a go before. Hopefully Jim will look at it further when he has time too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24843 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi again Larry, For some reason your posts are jumping my queue.. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > L: If thoughts are not included in the khandhas then it seems to me that > turns a blind eye to a lot of experience. ..... not if you consider experience as 'actual' (to coin Howard's transl of paramattha, though I did see he also used 'ultimate' in one post;-)). ..... I've been thinking about > concepts all day. Are you saying that simply didn't happen? .... It happened. 'You' thought about concepts, with the stress on 'thought about'. .... > As for concepts not being conditioned, I bet the name"dhammastudygroup" > was formed by accumulations and conditions. .... ;-) The particular kind of thinking certainly was 'formed by accumulations and conditions' to think in that way and not another way. But that which was conceived by those accumulations and conditions never existed and still doesn't exist in spite of the busy numbers which might suggest otherwise;-) Try being aware of DSG and what is the object that can be directly known? Thinking? Metta, Sarah ====== 24844 From: Roger Garin-Michaud Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Buddhist bibliography September update the September update to the Buddhist bibliography is now online at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddbib.html while the Buddhist directory is at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddlinks.html if you know of a Buddhist web site which is not listed yet, please do not hesitate to write to me with the url of the Buddhist website you wish to see listed, thanks ! Happy reading ! Roger Garin-Michaud from Saint-Priest near Lyon, France http://www.cyberdistributeur.com more information at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/English1.html to subscribe/unsubscribe to any of our mailing lists : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/feedback.htm 24845 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception hello all, Thank you all again for all the help I recieved on prior posts. Currently, I have been studying the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) and am having problems with some very basic terms. I was wondering if anyone can offer help in clarifying. The words I am having problems connecting with reality are the following: Mind, Conciousness, and Perception I have always thought of them synonymously and very vaguely; Reality is so much more complex than words. In reality, many things interrelate in this realm. When I think of what mind is, I also think of conciousness; or as one and the same. When I think of perception, not only of the senses, but perception within and of the mind, they are all (the 3 terms) once again interrelated (as I define them). However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself... [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' I would appreciate any help anyone could offer to turn these vague terms/words into real things/entities I can grasp. gratitudes, nori 24846 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi RobEp, Always good to see you;-) ;-) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah! > Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello > and thought this would be a good place to land. .... An illusion, Rob, an illusion....it’s crumbling away as we speak. From a recent post of Nina’s translating the sub-comy to Vism: “lujjanapalujjana.t.thena loko vuccati va.t.ta.m, Because of the meaning of crumbling away the world is called the cycle (of birth and death);....” ..... >Although I can't jump > into the middle of a thread with anyI see the conflict between > experience and concept is still brewing; it guess it's more or less > eternal. : ) .... Please jump right in..... We’ll all be glad of your help :) ..... > I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and > see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard > to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental > construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and > see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have > any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness > with which they arise. .... What is seen are merely visible objects, seen and marked and then conceptualised about. The mind-door activity and conceptualising follows immediately, but I think we agree. As Howard discussed recently with Ken H, no two visible objects are the same, even though they share common characteristics. ..... >And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the > next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a > convention, as you say, and not a reality. ..... And before we know it, we’re lost in that world of conventions, taking them for realities and having the illusion they can be directly known, I think. .... > Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting > me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and > what is not. .... Don’t run away so fast!What’s the hurry? How’s your summer been and is the drama book finished? Meet some of our newer members and talk to Larry when he gets frustrated with my clumsy language & posts;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Newbies, Rob Ep has the no 1 slot in the photo album. I think Emmy now heads her own album of ‘significant others’. Perhaps you can encourage others to join - after all, weren’t you meant to be Keeper of the Album? http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst ======= 24847 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Toby, An interesting study might be to compare the grammar of body language, the grammar of vocal language, and the grammar of logic. Mathematics, for example, has a grammar. These are all matters of convention, social agreements, which we learn at an early age and which evolve through countless accumulations. Beyond that I don't think abhidhamma has much to say about it. Although there *might* be the seeds of an ontology of grammar or grammar of ontology in the 4 patisambhida. Stay tuned. Larry 24848 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to Sukin, re: cremation Hi Nina, I sent one reply yesterday and waited for today to see if it would appear on the list. Nina, I don't personally know K. Sukol, so I didn't even think about going to the funeral. Besides I think it took place in Chiang Mai. I just called up Elle however, and asked her to convey your and Lodewijk's condolence to K. Sukol. I heard before that the Abbot had very good understanding of the Dhamma and I was hoping that one day I might meet him. So I feel this loss too... Please convey my regards to Lodewijk. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sukin, > op 30-08-2003 11:22 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > > > Today there was no discussion because K. Sujin had > > to attend the funeral of K. Sukol's monk brother. > N: This touches me very, very deeply and I sympathize with K. Sukol very > much, please tell him this. Lodewijk will also be touched, we both respected > him so much. We were going to ask for a trip to the Wat Dong Devi when we > are in Thailand end January, beginning February, because we wanted to see > him. What a loss for the Dhamma also, he had such great understanding. Can > you give me more news? I like to hear about the Abbot's kusala and about the > Dhamma talk at the ceremony. > Nina. 24849 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hello all, > > Thank you all again for all the help I recieved on prior posts. > > Currently, I have been studying the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) > and am having problems with some very basic terms. I was wondering > if anyone can offer help in clarifying. > > The words I am having problems connecting with reality are the > following: > > Mind, Conciousness, and Perception > > I have always thought of them synonymously and very vaguely; > > However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct > entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself... > > [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & > of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And > how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves > with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case > where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are > fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such > its disappearance.' > Dear Nori How strange that a very similar point was made at the Cooran weekend. I recently purchased a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the Majjhima Nikaya and have been reading the suttas (not just reading about them) for the first time - feeling somewhat like a Christian reading the Bible for the very first time after years of being told what's in it! So, in the Alagaddupama Sutta (Simile of the Snake), I read the Buddha telling the Bhikkhus that, if they don't understand anything, they should ask him or "those bhikkhus who are wise". Later in the sutta, he talks about material form, feeling, perception, formations etc. Imagining myself as a bhikkhu listening to the Buddha's discourse at the time, it is plainly obvious that I would have to ask him for a detailed explanation of those terms, what they mean, how they interrelate and so on. What I am saying is this - I have not been able to understand the suttas without knowing the underlying psychological & other theories underpinning them (which do not seem to be explained in the suttas themselves). Rightly or wrongly, I have gained the impression from reading DSG posts that there is inconsistency between the suttas and the Abhidhamma, that Buddha's "true" teachings can be discerned - fully and comprehensively - from a reading of the suttas alone. I now consider this type of thread to be a complete red herring. So, Nori, what I think you have to do is this. Read the suttas, as you are doing. For those parts not explained in sufficient detail for your understanding, don't be afraid to consult the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Then do as the Buddha said - examine his Dhamma reflectively with wisdom. Specifically, I think you have to study the 5 aggregates (khandhas)- also termed "nama-rupa". Buddha said to see them as they actually are with proper wisdom thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self". This leads to liberation. Good luck! Andrew 24850 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hello Nori, It may be helpful if you could read the first three chapters of Abhidhamma in daily life. Each chapter is about eight or nine pages. This would probably give you a good idea of what Theravadins mean by mind, consciousness and perception - which is not what the everyday world means by the terms. http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-00.htm I'm not sure of the differences between the Mahasatipatthana sutta and the Satipatthana sutta. But, you might be interested to know that the Satipatthana Sutta from the Majjhima Nikaya was exhaustively discussed on dsg. using "The Way of Mindfulness" The Satipatthana Sutta and it's Commentary by Soma Thera. This can be viewed or downloaded at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Larry kept us studying by regularly posting sections from 'The Way of Mindulness', starting at Way 1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15863 and finally coming to a completion at Way 105: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23070 Perhaps the questions and discussions in this study would also be of assistance to you. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hello all, > > Thank you all again for all the help I recieved on prior posts. > > Currently, I have been studying the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) > and am having problems with some very basic terms. I was wondering > if anyone can offer help in clarifying. > > The words I am having problems connecting with reality are the > following: > > Mind, Conciousness, and Perception > > I have always thought of them synonymously and very vaguely; Reality > is so much more complex than words. In reality, many things > interrelate in this realm. When I think of what mind is, I also > think of conciousness; or as one and the same. When I think of > perception, not only of the senses, but perception within and of the > mind, they are all (the 3 terms) once again interrelated (as I > define them). > > However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct > entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself... > > [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & > of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And > how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves > with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case > where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are > fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such > its disappearance.' > > I would appreciate any help anyone could offer to turn these vague > terms/words into real things/entities I can grasp. > > > gratitudes, > > nori 24851 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Dear Larry: Larry:"No no no. This completely wrong, more than wrong, > beyond wrong, > absolutely wrong. Asavas are not a way to cultivate > panna." ---------------------------------------------------- It´s not the end of the world as we know it... But take a look at my Nina´s reply about these matter. Of course Pañña doesn´t arise from Aasava: this I was trying to stand with the Honourable mom Hubbard Rhyme. ------------------------------------------------------ Larry:"This is because this > insight is still > subject to bewilderment (avijjaasava). The > implications that are > revealed in the other insight knowledges have yet to > be worked out. > Similaly, there is a survival instinct (bhavaasava), > gross or subtle, in > everyone but an arahant. This will taint whatever > insight may arise." ------------------------------------------------------ Just the right point Larry! The bhavaasava is a instinct - you can just imagine, as the mom Hubbard´s poor dog, that either this or that Aasava can give you a first glimpse of insight. Mere illusion. But if you cultivate attention and vigilance - Satipatthana - you can get it...and taking a pick at the Sukha-Vupassana is as good also it. Only the Arahantship is free of such Aasavas. May everyone attain this bliss! Well... it´s not so serious as to err at basic maths as I do sometimes (is ten plus three twenty eight, tad ??? Is this way you deserve your Mickey Mouse´s club card ??? Sad, very sad tad !!! No No No!!!!!) And I feel fine... Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24852 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/1/03 12:57:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > If so, I > >agree unthought concepts can't be known and are not even objects of > >consciousness but conceptual thoughts are conditioned and conditionS for > >the arising of other dhammas. > .... > The thiniking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are conditioned. > Only paramattha dhammas (except nibbana of course) are conditioned. > Thoughts are not included in the khandhas. It’s true that as arammana > paccaya (object condition) or upanissaya paccaya (decisive support > condition) that concepts or thoughts can be condition. Sounds illogical, > but it isn’t. > ========================== Sarah, this is zeroing in on an important matter that hasn't been clearly ironed out yet on the list, nor in my mind, nor, I believe, in Larry's mind, namely the relationships among the following: Acts of mental discernment (mind-door cittas), cetasikas concomitant to mind-door cittas, thoughts, and the alleged referents of thoughts. It seems to me that you are saying the following: So called thoughts (the stuff that seems to go through our heads as we think about things) are fictions; when engaged in a process of thinking, what occurs is a structured sequence of cittas and cetasikas with mind-door objects consisting of a variety of namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, sounds, etc, but no mind-door objects of a special sort that can be called "thoughts" - all there is are just the sequences of mind-door citta-cetasika-arammana events that constitute the thinking. I may be right or wrong in the foregoing analysis of the position you are putting forward. I do find this position an interesting and plausible one, though it is one which is different from what has been my view. Let me mention two other viewpoints: 1) What has been my view is that among the dhammas that can arise through the mind door are namas that are mind-constructed (manosankhata, to make up some Pali! ;-), that these can serve as objects of mind-door cittas, that they are what thoughts are, and that discerning them as objects, one after another, is what a thought process (or thinking) is. 2) Another, alternative view, that has a "natural" feel to it, and which, I suspect, is a very common one, is that there is no subject-object relation holding between mind-door cittas and their thought-objects, but rather that the thought, the knowing of the thought, and the thinking are all a single, non-dual event. It seems to me that the position I put forth first (as "yours") partakes of elements of both (1) and (2) above, and may synthesize them and be superior to them. I draw no final conclusion here. I look forward to reading your comments. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24853 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Sarah and Laiiiireeee, Also for me, but as you see, it is coming up soon in the Vis and also in subco, but I may skip that one???? nina. op 31-08-2003 09:06 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > With regard to the patisambhida, it’s a very difficult subject for me 24854 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Larry, op 31-08-2003 00:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal becoming of insight? > Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. I'm not sure how to > characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any ideas? N: for bhavaasava see my quote to Mike. I do not think it has to do with eternal becoming of insight. One may have wrong ideas about panna: thinking that one can make it arise again by control, motivated by an idea of self who controls. But obviously, any object can be object of the aasavas. It reaches up to the plane of gotrabhuu, the Atthasalini states. In other words: it concerns all cittas except lokuttara cittas which follow closely upon gotrabhu, change of lineage. Nina. 24855 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:17:01 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Meanings of dhamma, no. 11. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as nibbaana: <"Sata~nca dhammo na jara.m upetii"ti ettha nibbaane vattati. In the passage ³And true dhamma is not susceptible to decay², here dhamma means nibbaana...> We read further on: N: The terms hetu and paccaya are often used together, for example in the ³Kindred Sayings²(IV, XXXV, § 93, Duality: yo pi hetu, yo pi paccaya...so pi hetu, so pi paccaya.. : that condition, that relation... The Saddaniti ends with a summary in verse: Icceva.m- Thus indeed the word dhamma occurs with reference to the following words: Pariyattipaccayesu, gu.ne nissattataaya ca; scriptures and conditions, virtue and what is devoid of a living being; sabhaave ceva pa~n~naaya.m, pu~n~ne pa~n~nattiyampi ca. what has its own characteristic and wisdom, merit and also concept. Aapattiya.m vikaare ca, paccayuppannakepi ca; disciplinary offense and alteration, and also what is conditioned; saccasamaadhipakati-~neyyesu yuttiyampi ca; truth, concentration and nature, what is to be known and also what is suitable; visaye ceva nibbaane, dhammasaddo pavattati. object and nibbaana, thus the word dhamma occurs. Keci pana dhammasaddassa pavattivisayaana.m dasadhaava pariccheda.m vadanti. Some teachers, however, indicate the classification of the applications of the word dhamma by way of tenfold: Neyyamagge ca nibbaane, sabhaave atha jaatiya.m; What is to be known, the Path, nibbaana, what has its own nature, and also birth; mane visayapu~n~nesu, bhaave paavacanepi ca; mind-door, object and merit, nature and also the scriptures; imesu dasasvatthesu, dhammasaddo pavattati. in these ten applications the word dhamma occurs. ****** (The end.) With thanks to Jim and Dimitri, who inspired me to carry on this study. Nina. 24856 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Mike and Tobi, op 31-08-2003 18:00 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: Tobi, I am so delighted with your interest in Abhidhamma. Welcome here, all questions most welcome. Maybe after you read those sugested posts you have more questions. I liked Jon's remarks and also, Mike, you give us excellent reminders. Mike: The 'welfare' cetasika(s) (alobha-adosa? not sure) may remain predominant > throughout the statement but a practically infinite number of other cittas > and cetasikas--kusala and akusala--must certainly arise and subside with > their respective cittas through all the doors before the statement is > finished*. By the way, I think that kusala is very rarely > predominant--subtle akusala almost always rules for us puthujjanas. N: Wonderful Mike, and how little we know about all these uncountable moments of subtle akusala, even when we study Dhamma, explain it, or help others in different ways. How neglectful we really are! And deluding ourselves. Since there are countless cittas arising and falling away so fast, I think we should not try to pinpoint what happens exactly when speaking, from moment to moment. The details help us to have more understanding of anatta, that there is no self who speaks or conditions bodily intimation. With appreciation, Nina. 24857 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Tobi, op 31-08-2003 21:54 schreef torloff87048 op torloff87048@y...: > We all know how to speak in > grammatical sentences, and for the most part we can tell a > grammatical sentence from an ungrammatical one. Something is going > on in the mind to make this happen. What is it? N: It is the function of the cetasika sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, accompanying each citta. It marks and remembers each object. Whatever you learn, grammar, falls away each moment with the citta. But each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one, and thus experiences, also learning experiences are accumulated from moment to moment. It is due to sa~n~naa that there is remembrance of words, and the correct way of forming sentences. We attach great importance to remembrance, we take it for self. But it is only a cetasika performing its function. Amazing how slowly a learning process evolves. Not only with regard to grammar, but also with regard to the Dhamma. All we learn has to be applied, the Dhamma explains realities as they appear now. But before this sinks in! A Thai Abbot who just passed away said that we have to listen countless times.We think that we understand, but we have not understood yet, listening and considering is never enough. May we all have patience to listen again, consider again, so that gradually more understanding is gained. Nina. 24858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Icaro, I understand what you mean. I assumed already that you were using jhana in another sense. In the Dhsg and the Patthana: jhanafactors, also akusala ones are mentioned. They condition citta by way of jhana. These factors condition citta to think closely of an object. They each perform their own function function while they accompany citta. Good or bad deeds cannot be performed without these jhana-factors. Like speech: the jhana-factor vitakka plays an important part. Ven. Nyanaponika in Abhidhamma Studies explains about these factors. In the Subco they are called strength-givers. But how easy to take the akusala factors for the kusala factors. Nina. op 31-08-2003 23:32 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > even the more simple Jhaana can be very hard even to > the average trained human mind. Keeping your mind > focused on a Jhaana stream of consciousness - even a > basic pitti-sukhi Jhaana! 24859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala kamma continues samsara Dear Jon, I translated from the Thai commentary. Nina. op 31-08-2003 07:47 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > The commentary material you quote below is interesting stuff. Is it > from a published translation, or is it your own translation from the > Pali (or Thai)? 24860 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Howard! Howard: "when engaged in a process of thinking, > what occurs is a structured > sequence of cittas and cetasikas with mind-door > objects consisting of a variety of > namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, > emotions, images, odors, > sounds, etc, but no mind-door objects of a special > sort that can be called > "thoughts" - all there is are just the sequences of > mind-door citta-cetasika-arammana > events that constitute the thinking." ---------------------------------------------------- Exact the point, Uplifted Upasaka! And this clarifies the question. You see, when I was studying the Dhammasangani, I felt an urge to expand such ideas as the generation of sense-door thinking: the Dsg, despite the fact the Nibbana is an ahetu Dhamma, doesn´t support the concept of innate ideas -after the Mattika, you got only Kusala and Akusala Dhammas, embedded or not on hetu and ahetu grounds! So, I jump directly to the Patthana and I found at the hetu and Aramana Paccaya´s stands the first glimpse about this clarification. I will intend to read the rest of Patthana and its superb Combinatory Analysis of Kusala, Akusala, hetu, Aramana, etc, Paccayoti!!! Howard: " 1) What has been my view is that among the > dhammas that can arise > through the mind door are namas that are > mind-constructed (manosankhata, to make > up some Pali! ;-), that these can serve as objects > of mind-door cittas, that > they are what thoughts are, and that discerning them > as objects, one after > another, is what a thought process (or thinking) is." ------------------------------------------------------ Following the Patthana´s classification, it´s not only nama that are constructed as mind stuff (rated as Arupa)... even external rupa manages to penetrate our consciousness, forming a mental image - rupa as mind stuff - as similar as possible to reality. ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard:" 2) Another, alternative view, that has a > "natural" feel to it, and > which, I suspect, is a very common one, is that > there is no subject-object > relation holding between mind-door cittas and their > thought-objects, but rather that > the thought, the knowing of the thought, and the > thinking are all a single, > non-dual event. -------------------------------------------------- They are no-dual at rupa level...the same Rupa-Dhamma is found inside mind door-citta and out of it. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: "I draw no final conclusion here. I > look forward to reading your > comments." ---------------------------------------------------- I left to the Patthanapali the final word about this matters... for a while! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24861 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi again, Sarah - A couple more thoughts. I presented what I took to be "your position": > So called thoughts > (the stuff that seems to go through our heads as we think about things) are > fictions; when engaged in a process of thinking, what occurs is a structured > > sequence of cittas and cetasikas with mind-door objects consisting of a > variety of > namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, > sounds, etc, but no mind-door objects of a special sort that can be called > "thoughts" - all there is are just the sequences of mind-door > citta-cetasika-arammana events that constitute the thinking. and my position: > > What has been my view is that among the dhammas that can arise > through the mind door are namas that are mind-constructed (manosankhata, to > make > up some Pali! ;-), that these can serve as objects of mind-door cittas, that > > they are what thoughts are, and that discerning them as objects, one after > another, is what a thought process (or thinking) is. > =========================== Actually, as I think about it, these two positions are may not be mutually exclusive. I've been mulling over exactly what it is that I mean for the most part when I speak of "thoughts", and I think that mainly, in addition to "the mind-door objects consisting of a variety of namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, sounds, etc," what I most particularly have in mind are acts of mind-door sa~n~na, the makings of mental tags/markings and the reviewing of such. It is these cognitive events that I most view as "thoughts". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24862 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 8:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Thank you, Nina. That seems to be the correct way to apprehend grammar. It is a conditioned marking of mental objects by perception. This accumulates over time so that when mental objects arise in the mind, they are already marked by past conditioning. When we speak, we are sequentially "reading" the markings that are a property of the object, which itself is changing even as we speak. Grammar is only a conditioned way of reading those markings. Toby > N: It is the function of the cetasika sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, > accompanying each citta. It marks and remembers each object. Whatever you > learn, grammar, falls away each moment with the citta. But each citta that > falls away is succeeded by a next one, and thus experiences, also learning > experiences are accumulated from moment to moment. It is due to sa~n~naa > that there is remembrance of words, and the correct way of forming > sentences. 24863 From: Larry Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Icaro, I was just kidding with my no no no. I hope you weren't taken aback. Also, I think I made a mistake about avijjaasava. I called it bewilderment but I think it is actually wrong view. It seems there is a slight difference between bewilderment and wrong view. According to CMA wrong view (ditthi) is associated with desire and I would say also with concepts. Bewilderment (moha) is just not understanding. I think avijjaasava (ignorance) is wrong view, very basically one of the two extreme views (eternalism or nihilism) and is the same as the first link in dependent origination. Maybe ditthi is a subcategory of moha. I don't know. But I think it is significant that desire is associated with wrong view but not particularly with bewilderment. Larry 24864 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Larry, And not only that, but what about the "grammar" of natural phenomenon, which even seems to be "speaking" to us at times? The intuition that perhaps all these different "grammars" are the same is what drove my speculations. As far as I can tell though, the only wholesome approach to to these things is to recognize all phenomenon as dependently arisen and to direct one's attention to the experience of them as impermanent, suffering and non-self. I can't find a reference to patisambhida in the CMA. I'll have to do a little exploring to find out what that's all about... Toby > > An interesting study might be to compare the grammar of body language, > the grammar of vocal language, and the grammar of logic. Mathematics, > for example, has a grammar. These are all matters of convention, social > agreements, which we learn at an early age and which evolve through > countless accumulations. Beyond that I don't think abhidhamma has much > to say about it. Although there *might* be the seeds of an ontology of > grammar or grammar of ontology in the 4 patisambhida. Stay tuned. > > Larry 24865 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Simple at Cooran; was: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Ken, Thank you, that is the essence of the Middle Way. The song: we come and go: nobody knows from where he came when he is born, and then so soon he goes again: where? It is the cycle. With appreciation, Nina. op 01-09-2003 08:02 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > To find the Middle Way we learn about nama and rupa. > Seen from the outside, that lacks the romance of > formalised practices but not from the inside. Nama and > rupa are all there is; when we remember that, they > cease to be dry, academic subjects -- learning more > about them IS the Middle Way. 24866 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Howard, I like your well thought out post. I do not see the change very radical, but more gradual, over many, many years, so that we hardly notice it. But, it is an immense boon that the Buddha taught us about our different cittas, and rupas. He taught us to be aware also of akusala, and then panna can develop! I agree with you: there are countless akusala cittas, but one moment of right understanding is very precious. No need to be distressed about our akusala. Nina. P.S. If your mail bounces do you allow me to answer your litterature post on dsg? I have to wait and see. More people like to know about books on abhidhamma. op 31-08-2003 17:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Because of this fact, > it is truly a great boon to us that the possibility of change, radical > change, is still open to us at any split-second moment. By studying and > contemplating the Dhamma, and by engaging in cultivation as we (individually) > understand > the Buddha to have instructed, we plant the seeds any one of which may blossom > into the tree of freedom when conditions are right. Then it doesn't matter > that the overwhelming aggregate of states are akusala - the one moment of > liberating wisdom saves the day. 24867 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Larry, I have to consider Sarah's post. Difficult! But someone else could have desire for the citta of the arahat? Or is that not the meaning? Why is the Atthasalini saying: right up to the plane of gotrabhu there are asavas. Actually the matter was: the object of asavas. Nina. op 31-08-2003 22:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected > (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? Next > para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do with > aasavas. > > H Nina, > > The mundane panna of an arahant is also free from asavas because they > have all ceased for him. > 24868 From: Larry Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:11am Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Try being aware of DSG and what is the object that can be directly known? > Thinking? Hi Sarah, The object that can be directly known is the people who wrote all these emails. However, I have some more thoughts on this. If you say that what looks like a tree, sounds like a tree, feels like a tree, smells like a tree, and tastes like a tree is not a tree, it is looking, hearing, feeling, smelling, and tasteing, then I would agree this is logical. But, this does not rule out concepts as a conditioned mental event and it doesn't prevent one from calling this particular assembly of sensations a tree. What it does do is deny the duality of "other". By denieing that duality you are denieing objects (arammana). So doing, you are saying all there is is consciousness. If, conventionally, concepts are the object of consciousness then, ultimately, concepts _are_ consciousness. So, voila, you have asserted that a concept is a paramattha dhamma. I agree. Larry 24869 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/1/03 1:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > P.S. If your mail bounces do you allow me to answer your litterature post > on > dsg? I have to wait and see. More people like to know about books on > abhidhamma. > ======================= A few of my mails are bouncing, but most are not. But, please, yes, by all means, answering on list will be fine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24870 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:21am Subject: The heart base Hi All, I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the heart base as the physical support for the mind element and mind-consciousness. I know this base is not specifically stated in the Abhidhamma proper, but I assume the commentary that names it is authoritative. Any comments are appreciated. The obvious question is, what about the brain? My understanding is that the heart base is the physical support for citta and cetasika, while the brain can be understood as the physical support for mind-objects that are presented to the mind-door. If that is so, would it be correct to say that when a cetasika such as perception "marks" a mind-object, that this is another case of consciousness produced matter, in that the physical support for the mind-object (in the brain) is altered in some way by the mark? If a person is hit on the head and "knocked unconscious," should we understand this as being a disruption in the flow of mind-objects from the brain to the mind-door? Or, does the mind-door have a physical base in the brain and that is what is being disturbed by a blow to the head? I know one could just explain being knocked out as a reduction in the cetasika of attention, but if the cetasikas are physically supported in the heart base, why should a blow to the head have the effect of "knocking out" attention? I hope this doesn't seem too pedantic a question. Perhaps the question is how literally are we to take the heart base as "the physical cavity inside the heart" to be? If it is taken as strictly literal, then what are we to make of modern medicine's ability to remove a person's heart and keep them alive (and conscious) on a machine outside the body pumping their blood? Without a heart, do they still have a heart-base? If so, where is it? And not to get too gruesome here, but what about the medical possibility of entirely removing a person's body below the neck and keeping them alive, at least for some period of time, artificially pumping blood to their brain? I don't see any fundamental reason this couldn't be done, though it does seem rather unwholesome. What becomes of the physical support base for their cittas and cetasikas then? Toby 24871 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The heart base Dear Toby: Toby:"I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the > heart base as the physical support for the mind > element and mind-consciousness. I know this base is > not specifically stated in the Abhidhamma proper, > but I assume the commentary that names it is > authoritative. Any comments are appreciated." ------------------------------------------------------ Toby, the Abhidhamma doesn´t partake the Aristotelic disregard of the heart´s role on human being. Since the elaboration of sense-door datum and further evaluation of Citta and cetasika´s predicament are tasks due to cognitive appareil, so you got the brain´s role as a "Dramatis Personna" of this act. And the heart ? Think about how our feelings and thoughts are connected with other centers of conscience of our body - for The Abhidhamma is irrelevant if you get the fish with a hook or a net, since you get it. --------------------------------------------------- Toby:" The obvious question is, what about the brain? My > understanding is that the heart base is the physical > support for citta and cetasika, while the brain can > be understood as the physical support for > mind-objects that are presented to the mind-door." ----------------------------------------------------- The Brain, the Heart, the Guts, &c, are the "Dramatis Personnae" of the act of elaborate reality or Dhamma. Our mind embodied in our brains can even take the main role, but human being is a complete set of relationships! Think about it! ------------------------------------------------------ Toby: " If that is so, would it be correct to say that when > a cetasika such as perception "marks" a mind-object, > that this is another case of consciousness produced > matter, in that the physical support for the > mind-object (in the brain) is altered in some way by > the mark?" ------------------------------------------------- Toby, I could say that Citta and Cetasika are events that interact one each other, or others... as the Potential fields on a Movement Lagrangian Equation, but I won´t take such analogy so far: one must take in account daily life on these issues! And excuse me...pardonnez-moi...but I got just now a very important event to attend!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24872 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Nori, In the passages you quote "mind" and "consciousness" are the same khandha. It might have been better to translate "mind" as "consciousness". The word is citta. In terms of the 4 foundations the observation and clear comprehension of consciousness (citta anupassana) is for the purpose of counteracting a belief in permanence. The observation and clear comprehension of dhamma (dhamma anupassana) is for the purpose of counteracting a belief in a self, generally speaking, but any foundation will cover both of these as well as insight into dukkha. The three are inter-related. A good resource is Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm and Nina's "Abhidhamma In Daily Life" http://www.zolag.co.uk/ . It's sometimes a little tricky figuring out what the pali is for a translation. Larry Nori: "However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself... [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" 24873 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Nori, I forgot to say "focused on mental qualities" is a translation of "dhamma aanupassanaa". Larry 24874 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 8:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Nori (and a question for Nina), Re: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself..." Looking at the sutta again, the object of citta anupassana seems to me to be a general state of mind rather than individual thoughts. saraaga.m citta.m translated by Soma Thera as "the consciousness with lust" could be interpreted as a lusty state of mind rather than a lusty thought. mahaggata.m citta.m translated as "the state of consciousness become great" refers to jhana but probably not the jhana nimitta (conceptual "sign" which is the object of jhana). The object of mindfulness would be instead the general unbounded state of consciousness that is jhana. "Citta" can be either mind or consciousness. I think "mind" would be a good translation for citta in this case. It isn't exactly the consciousness khandha that is the object of mindfulness. The object is more of a general nature. Nina, what do you think? Larry 24875 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] moha and ditthi Hi Larry, They are two different cetasikas. But when there is wrong view it is accompanied by, rooted in moha. Lobha is the other root that accompanies it. Nina op 01-09-2003 19:26 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I > think avijjaasava (ignorance) is wrong view, 24876 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > > The object that can be directly known is the people who wrote all > these emails. .... How are all those people knonw? What is experienced? ..... > However, I have some more thoughts on this. If you say that what > looks like a tree, sounds like a tree, feels like a tree, smells like > a tree, and tastes like a tree is not a tree, it is looking, hearing, > feeling, smelling, and tasteing, then I would agree this is logical. .... ..and of course all the sights, sounds, smells, tastes.... .... > But, this does not rule out concepts as a conditioned mental event > and it doesn't prevent one from calling this particular assembly of > sensations a tree. .... I agree with the second part anyway;-) 50% ..... >What it does do is deny the duality of "other". By > denieing that duality you are denieing objects (arammana). .... I get lost in duality theories. Concepts are arammana of thinking. No one says otherwise. But concepts can only ever be experienced by consciousness (citta) as concepts. They cannot be directly known as namas and rupas by panna. Just as the money-changer needed coins to know the details and realize the value, so does panna (in satipatthana) need namas and rupas to do its work. Just as a money-changer might give a theoretical analysis based on a conceptual description of those coins, panna can theoretically do its task, like now on DSG. But theoretical knowledge is always theoretical and still has to be based on right theory;-) ..... >So doing, > you are saying all there is is consciousness. .... No .... If, conventionally, > concepts are the object of consciousness then, ultimately, concepts > _are_ consciousness. So, voila, you have asserted that a concept is a > paramattha dhamma. I agree. .... I don't. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard and others - I'll get back to you all. Somehow the Larry-ping pong-along is being given priority, partly because it's quick;-) ======= 24877 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Nina (& Larry), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > I have to consider Sarah's post. Difficult! But someone else could have > desire for the citta of the arahat? Or is that not the meaning? Why is > the > Atthasalini saying: right up to the plane of gotrabhu there are asavas. > Actually the matter was: the object of asavas. ..... I'll also try to raise it in Burma with K.Sujin if I have a chance. Metta, Sarah ====== 24878 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Similes of the Snake and Raft Hi Andrew (Christine, Ken H & All). Thanks for letting us all share your discussion weekend too;-) ;-) Look forward to further reports. In appreciation of your hospitality too. ..... > On Saturday, I led a discussion on the Simile of the Snake Sutta > (which also includes the simile of the raft). Alaggadupama Sutta. I > noted that there is a translation discrepancy about the "dhamma" that > is to be treated like a raft and relinquished after "crossing over". > One source says it means good states/serenity, while Bhikkhu Bodhi > says it means the Teachings in toto. If anyone has any insight on > this point, please do share it. .... I think that when one reads these last lines and refers to the commentary notes B.Bodhi gives, then his translation seems correct. Also, I understand it to be the attachment to the raft and to the good states that should be abandoned, rather than the Teachings and good states themselves. Conveniently I can cut and paste some of these quotes from earlier posts I’ve written to Rob M and others: Simile of the Snake in the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl of MN, p227: “Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma- discourses, stnzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective aceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and sufering for a long time.” Note253: “MA [the commentary] explains that this passage is stated in order to show the fault in wrongly motivated acquisition of intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma - apparently the pitfall into which Arittha fell. The ‘good (attha) for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma’ is the paths and fruits. ***** Simile of the Raft p.229: “Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states.” Note 225: ““Dhammaa pi vo phaatabbaa pageva adhammaa” MA identifies the good states with serenity and insight (samatha-vipassana), and paraphrases the meaning: “I teach, bhikkhus, even the abandoning of desire and attachment to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and attachment, how much more so to that low, vulgar, contemptible, coarse, and impure thing that this foolish Arittha sees as harmless when he says that there is no obstruction in desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure.” The commentator cites MN 66.26-33 as an example of the Buddha teaching the abandonment of attachment to serenity, MN 38.14 as an example of his teaching the abandonment of attachment to insight. Note that it is in each case the ATTACHMENT to the good states that should be abandoned, not the good states themselves. The Buddha’s injunction is not an invitation to moral nihilism or a proposal that the enlightened person has gone beyond good and evil. In this connection see MN 76.51” (end Bodhi quote> ***** Andrew, I hope you’re also considering the purchase of Samyutta Nikaya, transl by B.Bodhi. We also have the raft simile in this sutta: SN(1V, 238 The Vipers). ********** We read about a man’s adventure facing four deadly vipers, five murderous enemies,an even more scary sixth murderer, village-attacking dacoits and a great expanse of water to be crossed with no ferry or boat: “’The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom’: this is a designation for the four great elements...... ‘The five murderous enemies’: this is a desgnation for the five aggregates ubject to clinging...... ‘The sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword’: this is a desgnation for delight and lust. ‘The empty village’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If bhikkhus, a wise, competent, intelligent person examines them by way of the eye, they appear to be void, hollow, empty....by way of the ear....by way of the mind.... ‘Village-attacking dacoits’: this is a designation for the six external sense bases. The eye, bhikkhus, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms, the ear..The nose...The tongue...The body..The mind is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena. ‘The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods; the flood of sensuality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance. ‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity. ‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The raft': this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view....right concentration. ‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a desgnation for the arousing of energy. ‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.” ********** Let me know how any of this sounds and keep posting, Andrew! Share your MN readings with us. Metta, Sarah p.s >I was very excited at seeing the canals on Mars, > only to be told that there was a hair on the lens! A lesson in > visible object and mind object?.... ;-) Ken H, a real Middle Way masterpiece;-) Chris, a great and prompt summary;-) ============================================== 24879 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Toby, This is mostly another sign-post note. It’s really great to have your contributions here and thank you very much for taking the time to give such a detailed and unusual introduction. I know it can’t be easy to describe the experiences you have shared. Thank you for your efforts to do so. You mention the Pacific NW and my geography is rather blurry. Dan, Connie and Mike are all in Oregon I think....[Maybe one day you can all have a Pacific NW DSG get together like the SE Qld DSGers Down Under;-)] Thanks for detailing your experiences. There is much to discuss, but it’ll all resurface in due course, I’m sure. In any case, I’m glad to hear about the positive effects on your health and well-being. It's so interesting that the Tipitaka seemed to fit like a glove when you first came across it, Toby. --- torloff87048 wrote: > At the time I made this breakthrough, I still had not been exposed to > Theraveda Buddhism or the Tipitaka. But in searching for teachings that > corresponded to my experience, I was eventually led to the Sutta on The > Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and from there into the whole Tipitaka. > These books describe exactly what I have been experiencing and lead me > further and further along the path to the end of suffering. I've been > gobbling them up and have continued to make a lot of progress in > eliminating unwholesome states. Because of my tempermental leaning > towards bare insight meditation, I particularly love the Abhidhamma. It > is surely one of the most astonishing revelations of truth ever > recorded. Not only that, but it really works. .... For most people, the details are a very slowly acquired taste if at all. Occasionally someone like yourself comes along who appreciates the Abhidhamma instantly. Of course, conditions and propensities are so very complex. Reading all your messages, there are many topics in Useful Posts which I think you’d appreciate when you have time. These are just a few posts from the archives set aside at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Scroll down to the following which I think are relevant to your threads: heart-base sanna (perception) Patisambhiddamagga vipassana satipatthana thinking concepts & realities dependent arising (paticca samuppada) vipallasa (perversions) ***** You can then follow the threads of discussions. Also, in the escribe back-up, you can use the search facility: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ If you’d like a copy of the entire archives on a word document disc for Xmas (easy to scroll through messages without ads and for searches even when away from the internet) contact RobM. Metta, Sarah ====== 24880 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 3:31am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, (RobK, Howard, Elias, Cooran DSGers, Suan, Mike & All) Sorry for the delay.... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In an earlier message I corrected 'icchataa' to 'appicchataa'. I also > made reference to the 5 dhuras which is also incorrect. That should be > the five dhutadhammas as discussed in the AN commentary on > Mahakassapa. Wasn't there some DSG discussion on this some time ago? .... (By the time I wrote to Nori, I relised you must have meant ‘appicchataa’). Yes, a long time ago. Mahakassapa was of course foremost in these. I’ve just tracked down a discussion between us on this very topic in very early DSG days: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m320.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m331.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m438.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m446.html [by way of a diversion for RobK & Howard, I also found an interesting quote from you in one of these posts which is relevant to the ‘decline of the sasana’ thread I think: Jim: I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards to SN XVI.13, the Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there is an interesting section on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When scriptural learning is declining, the practice declines: when the practice is declining, attainment declines. When scriptural learning is being fulfilled, individuals holding the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, fulfilling the practice they fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have seen other similar passages that make it quite clear that pariyatti (scriptural learning) is a condition(paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), and pa.tipatti is a condition for adhigamo” ] ***** [...] >Fewness of wishes and contentment are included in the > five ascetic practices (dhutadhammas) and relate to alobha. > Kaayaviveka (bodily seclusion) would be another interesting one to > look at. I don't know if this is included among the dhutadhammas, > perhaps in pavivekataa. .... I’m sure many of the dhutangas relate to or are included. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/dhutaanga.htm My question, I suppose, is whether these don’t just refer to the life of the bhikkhu already highly accomplished in jhanas and other attainments such as MahaKassapa? .... >I also like the 'nekkhamma' (renunciation) > that Suan brought up. This term also belongs to sammaasankappa (right > thought), the 2nd member of the noble eightfold path. .... Yes, but in the sense of renunciation from attachment, I think. I don’t see it as referring to ‘bodily seclusion’ at all. What do you think? http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nekkhamma.htm ..... [....] > I think it would be a good idea to keep in touch with these > ex-bhikkhus of whom I hardly know anything about. I know that it can > be unhealthy for solitaries to cut off all communication with other > Buddhists for years on end. We need to stay in touch with each other > in one way or another. ..... I agree with all this. One ex-bhikkhu we know, Kieran (Sundhara), joined the Cooran weekend. Azita is about to post an article by another, Chittapala. At least another two I know are members of DSG. Hopefully, we’ll be able to have more contact. It can be difficult when us city folks are so busy.....;-) ..... [...] >There's no point in trying to > convince a solitary forest dweller (a rare thing) that he'd be much > better off in the big city or to ask him to justify his chosen way of > life. .... I think the more we understand about conditions, accumulations and anatta, the easier it becomes to ‘live and let live’. I had meant to suggest this to Elias who wrote a very nice post about communicating with his mother. K.Sujin always reminds us to be ‘the understanding person’. - just to accept others as they are and to show kindness without expectations. .... > I don't think it has to be 100% solitary confinement. There is some > good commentary on MN1 describing a balance between living alone in > the forest and interacting with society and why many of the suttas > give two locations of the Buddha's abode: the place of resort (a > village, town, or city) and the place of contemplation (eg. at the > foot of a tree). .... Do you mean in the Mulapariyayasutta? Do you think the ‘foot of a tree’ references refer to those who have already attained jhana or are highly adept in this regard? ... > Until this year, I was in the habit of only going to the village for > groceries once a month and then I got to thinking about the bhikkhu > going into the village for his almsfood every day. So I've been > working to change my habit to going in once a week and also using this > day as a day for wandering about extensively on foot and mingling in > with the people and traffic. I was so surprised at how many friendly > people I met in the village on Thursday and how quick and willing they > were to assist me. .... I’m glad to hear it. Opportunities for metta and also for appreciating and giving others the opportunity for metta. .... [...] >I much agree with what you write. I believe that a > solitary life can be lived in such a way that it can be beneficial > both to the individual and those around him. It doesn't have to be the > way of an anti-social hermit. I very much wish to apply the Theravada > teachings in my daily life. .... I agree and appreciate these comments. No one would ever doubt your sincere appreciation and confidence in the Theravada teachings. You mentioned in another note that you’d been considering correlations between quiet vs busy life and other factors, inc samathayaanika vs vipassanayaanika. I think this opens a whole new dimension and maybe part of the crux of the matter for many. I think we then see that not only are personal inclinations and preferences at work, but also views and understandings about ways of practice, especially relating to the development of samatha. I’m happy to consider or discuss any of these areas further. I know you’ve considered them all very carefully and always have helpful comments and references. Hopefully we'll be hearing more feedback from the Cooran group and others like Suan and Mike as well. Metta, Sarah ==== 24881 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Dear Nina: Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure have some questions. Thanks, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > ****** > (The end.) > With thanks to Jim and Dimitri, who inspired me to carry on this study. > Nina. 24882 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Nori, I apologise for the delay. I hadn’t forgotten your question, but I don’t find your qus easy to answer simply. Please keep asking them nonetheless;-) --- norakat147 wrote: > hi sarah, > > I asked mike n. this also, and I think I can predict the answer, but > i figured i'd ask. ..... > What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri > Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off > alms with a small backpack and tent (moving from place to place; as > opposed to a monastery)? > > Would it be any more conducive to the ending of dukkha (than living > as a householder in a busy city with a job with long hours) ? ..... I hope you can help Mike to share his comments here (always very fine imho) with everyone, so I can just agree with what he says;-) I was thinking of your qu just now as a typhoon is rapidly approaching HK. I think, the first typhoon or monsoon would soon blow you and your tent away, if you weren’t attacked by snakes, elephants, insects or robbers first. However, with right understanding anything is OK - even being blown away in a typhoon. There are still the namas and rupas that are the objects of satipatthana which you’re reading about in the sutta. Nina and Jon recently wrote these comments: Nina: “.....One's house,social contacts and work are no impediments for insight, because the development of insight is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. They are sabhaava dhammas, they each have their own characteristic that appear. John: “Good reminders, Nina. There is nothing about our daily life that need impede the development of insight, even though we may have thoughts to that effect from time to time. That kind of thinking can be recognised for what it is -- just thinking (conditioned by wrong view, no doubt). ..... Later in the post: John: “First comes the understanding at an intellectual level of the connection between *awareness of the nama or rupa appearing now* and *attainment to the path*. I think this step is perhaps the biggest hurdle to surmount; I know that in my own case it was a long time before I really felt comfortable about the idea of awareness of the presently appearing nama or rupa being 'all there is to it', or at least as much as was needed for a person of my (very limited)level of understanding.” ***** Nori, I was also interested in your discussion with Ray and others on ‘passivity in Buddhism’. As you know, there is no self at all. You mentioned being ‘focused on liberating ourselves from suffering’. Indeed, there is no self to be liberated. You wonder what right action is and give many examples of relieving others’ physical suffering and so on. As I’ve said before, so many of your comments and inclinations remind me so much of my own. However, it is all just thinking when we have these ideas. In truth, there’s only ever one citta (moment of consciousness) at a time and only ever one reality that can be known. Understanding the truth at this moment without any selection or idea of self is the path of detachment and the way to understand the Noble Truths of suffering...eventually. Back to your original question and reference to the simple life as compared to the long hours in an office job. Nori, I’ve written to you before about a time I spent in Sri Lanka. by contrast, for the last 20 years in HK Jon and I have both had demanding jobs and very long work hours, 6 days a week. It’s all just the norm in HK. Neither of us have ever considered our busy lives, demanding jobs or even being very sick at times as impediments to ending dukkha. Certainly they have been impediments to reading as much as we might like or to studying Pali and so on, but not to the development of satipatthana. Only ignorance is the real obstacle whether we’re living in the tent or monastery or high-rise. ..... From the Netti-ppakarana.m,65: “ ‘by ignorance is the world shut in, Ajita’ the Blessed One said. ‘ ‘Tis undisplayed through miswishing (vivichhaa) and neglect, and hankering smears it, I say; Suffering is its greatest fear’ “ Sn1033; Pe13,83) “Bhikkhus, I say that, relatively speaking (pariyaayato), all creatures, all breathing things, all beings, have one hindrance only, that is to say, ignorance; for all beings, have ignorance as hindrance. And bhikkhus, it is with the entire cessation of ignorance, with giving it up and relinquishing it, that creatures have no more hindrance, I say.” Netti, 499: “Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the roundabout (cf Sii,178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now among men.” Nori, I hope there is something of help. Metta, Sarah ====== 24883 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Hi Jaran & Nina, --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Nina: > > Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure > have some questions. .... Glad to see you around, Jaran. Are you coming to Burma? We'll also be at the foundation the weekend before for discussions as will several others. Look f/w to your questions. It's been a great series. Thank you for sharing it, Nina and for all the research. It's all under 'Dhamma' in UP (or will be when updated), if anyone wishes to refer to the whole series easily. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ===== 24884 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (II) Thanks, Nina. Very clear. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: ... > N: To gain the supernormal powers the yogavacara has to attain the > fourth > jhana, have masteries of jhana, and cultivate the four iddhiipaada, > bases of > success. While jhanacittas arise he cannot be aware of nama and > rupa > appearing through the six doors. When he emerges from jhana he has > to make a > resolve for the supernormal power he wants to attain, such as to > become many > (Vis. XII, 57). He is indeed distracted from the goal of > penetrating the > characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena) appearing one at > a time > through the six doors. When he is an arahat already it is a > different > matter. > Nina. 24885 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Nina and Icaro --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Icaro, ... > As I said, it is difficult to really know what the visible is, that > which > appears through the eye-door. It is difficult to know what a > doorway is. I > do not claim to understand these things, but let me be the parrot, > as our > friend Num says, imitating what I learnt: when your eyes are closed > and then > you open them, something appears what was not there before. There > is not yet > an image, but through eyes only: just colour or what is visible. > The same > through ears: when you do not pay attention to the source or the > meaning of > the sound, but just the characteristic of sound is heard, you can > consider > the meaning of audible object. This is the way to learn what sense > objects > are. No need to think of them as concepts in the mind. It would be > wonderful > if Jon would butt in and add something. I like to be reminded. I'm not sure that I can add anything of use here. I too find the sense-door objects to be elusive customers. I do find it useful to reflect on the basics of the mechanics as explained in the texts. Perhaps I may just expand a little on Icaro's original statement: > Citta receives the Rupa > external our door-senses as an object perceived by the > eye, the ear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! The object of all sense-door experience is 'raw' sense-door data, for example, visible-data in the case of eye-door experience, or audible-data in the case of ear-door experience. Sense-door data is just that. It may not experienced in chunks that correspond to the 'things' that we take as being the 'source' of the data. Visible data, for example, is not necessarily experienced in discrete packages that correlate to trees, people etc; so at the moment of being experienced there is no tree or person in the visible data. Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees and people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not how the world is actually being experienced at that moment. Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to imply that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being similarly creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply means it's a perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way things are actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, except that for the worldling there are conditions for such perception to be accompanied by wrong view. As Icaro says, consciousness tends to take the sense-door data as objects perceived by the sense faculties (e.g., as 'tree' being perceived by the eye). In doing so it is off-base on 2 counts: there is no perception of 'objects' *as objects*, and what perception there is is by consciousness and not by the physical faculty, which is merely the base for the arising of the consciousness. As I said earlier, I fully agree with Nina that dhammas such as visible-object are difficult to know, they are elusive. However, reflective consideration of the 'basics' such as we are now discussing is useful, and can be a condition for better 'real-time' understanding, although not at an occasion (i.e., as to time or kind of dhamma) of our choosing. No expectations! Jon 24886 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:11am Subject: More on Money-changers Hi Larry & Jon,(Jim & Suan), You were having a discussion about the role of vitakka (applied thinking) in sustained concentration. Jon wrote: J: “The question of what is the factor that causes/allows sustained concentration to occur has come up for discussion before (I remember Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the relevant factor here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the function of striking at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka strikes at the same object successively, as I understand it.” ..... As we know, when vitakka is a factor of the eightfold path it is referred to as sammaa-sankappa (Right Thinking). I came across the following quote regarding its importance to samma-di.t.thi (Right View)and the money-changer simile: Sammohavinodanii 441: “ Also as regards Right View and Right Thinking, understanding cannot of its own nature determine an object as “impermanent, painful, no-self”, but with applied thought giving [assistance] by repeatedly beating [upon the object] it can. How? Just as a money-changer, having had a coin placed in his hand and being desirous of looking at it on all sides equally, cannot turn it over with the power of his eye only, but by turning it over with his finders he is able to look at it on all sides; likewise understanding cannot of its own nature determine an object as impermanent, etc, but with applied thought with its characteristic of focussing the mind and its function of striking and threshing, as it were beating and turning over, it can take what is given and determine it. Therefore Right View only is included here in the understanding group as being of the same kind, but Right Thinking is included because of its action [of assisting].” (The 3 groups are the virtue group, the concentration group and the understanding group). Nina also writes more about vitakka in ‘Cetasikas’. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas10.html Jim & Suan may be interested to read the quotes and comments on nekkhama(thought of renunciation) at the end of the short ch on vitakka as being one of the 3 kinds of kusala vitakka, along with avyaapaada (thought of non-malevolence) and avihi’msa (thought of non-harming. Metta, Sarah ====== 24887 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > As much as many of us "modern folk" would tend to balk at > this, and > call it imbalanced, and pessimistic, I am certain that it is > absolutely correct. > The very fact that we are "in" samsara, where dukkha is central, > requires > that at the level of actual experience, the paramatthic level, the > three poisons > must be primary, and most kammic states must be akusala. Because of > this fact, > it is truly a great boon to us that the possibility of change, > radical > change, is still open to us at any split-second moment. By studying > and > contemplating the Dhamma, and by engaging in cultivation as we > (individually) understand > the Buddha to have instructed, we plant the seeds any one of which > may blossom > into the tree of freedom when conditions are right. Then it doesn't > matter > that the overwhelming aggregate of states are akusala - the one > moment of > liberating wisdom saves the day. > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for these comments. I agree that there is no cause for pessimism. Although life is mostly akusala, that is no bar to the pursuit of the way out of samsara. Our boon is that we have been born into an environment where the necessary information for the [further] development of that way out is available, and that because of past efforts in that direction we appreciate the urgency of seizing that opportunity. However, like with facing up to the fact that 'akusala rules' (as Mike so aptly put it), we should also be honest with ourselves as to how little of the knowledge necessary to progress along the way (i.e., how little insight) has been developed to date and, consequently, how long the road ahead. Thanks for sharing your reflections, and for your well-considered posts of late on our old friend concepts. Jon 24888 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Money-changers Dear Sarah: Sarah:"You were having a discussion about the role of > vitakka (applied thinking) > in sustained concentration. Jon wrote: > > J: “The question of what is the factor that > causes/allows sustained > concentration to occur has come up for discussion > before (I remember > Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the > relevant factor > here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the > function of striking > at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka > strikes at the > same object successively, as I understand it.” > ..... > As we know, when vitakka is a factor of the > eightfold path it is referred > to as sammaa-sankappa (Right Thinking)." ------------------------------------------------------ Sarah, as an illustrative example you can take a quote as the Paticca-Samuppada or the "Namo Tasso Bhagavato Arahato Sammasambuddhassa". At each word that definies a kind of Buddha´s essence, you are hitting out or touching the same object at Citta with a vocal intimation (vagiviññatti - "as a mantra" you could say) or with your mind - Vitakka. You can identify two aspects of this Citta operation: Sama-Samkhapa and Samma-Sati. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24889 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 8:23am Subject: The Role Of Brain In Abhidhamma : Re: The heart base Dear Toby and all How are you? Toby wrote: "The obvious question is, what about the brain? My understanding is that the heart base is the physical support for (citta and cetasika), while the brain can be understood as the physical support for mind- objects that are presented to the mind-door." What you wrote above is only partially true. The heart base is the physical support only for mental consciousness (manoviññaa.na) and its mental associates (cetasikas). For the five-sense-door consciousnesses and their mental associates such as visual consciousness and its cetasikas, though, the five- sense-door receptors (pasaadas) found in the head serve as their physical supports. ------------------------ Abhidhamma reference is as follows. "Taani hi ajjhattike pa`nca pasaade vatthum katvaa uppajjanti." "Those (five-sense-door consciousnesses) emerge by making the internal five receptors the base(s)." Section 762, Vibha`nga A.t.thakathaa The above line of commentary is an elaboration on the following Vibha`nga original Pali. "pañcannam viññaa.naanam vatthu ajjhattikaa aaramma.naa baahiraa" "The base of the five (perceptual) consciousnesses are internal while their objects or stimuli are external." Section 762, Vibha`nga Pali, Abhidhamma Pi.taka. --------------------------- As the five internal receptors (representing eyes, ears, tongue, nose, skin) can all be found in the head, and are directly connected to the brain, we can safely say that Abhidhamma does not overlook the role of brain for the emergence of perceptual consciousnesses such as visual consciousness. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "torloff87048" wrote: Hi All, I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the heart base as the physical support for the mind element and mind-consciousness. < snip> Toby 24890 From: connie Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 9:15am Subject: peace, Icaro Thanks for all the great inspiration, Icaro. While you're off practicing field exercises and whatever, I'll be drilling in grammar & hoping I'm better at that than I ever was at marching. Looking forward to hearing the Buddhist cadences you pull out of the Mother's cupboard. I'm not in the army anymore, but I salute you, Sir. connie 24891 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg]The book of Analysis Hi Howard, The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) could be on your future list. Also good for Icaro, but for him the fateful 13th is approaching. His departure. The Intro is excellent, and fascinating examples for daily life (as quoted before, about conceit), but also lists in it. The book is rather big. Just curious to know what was in New York Library. Nina. 24892 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The heart base and Patthana. Dear Toby and Icaro, Icaro explained very well the role of the heartbase. I just would like to add a few things from the Patthana op 01-09-2003 20:52 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > ----------------------------------------------------- > The Brain, the Heart, the Guts, &c, are the > "Dramatis Personnae" of the act of elaborate reality > or Dhamma. N: It is western tradition to stress the brain so much. But also liver, blood, etc. play their part in our functioning, dramatis personae. We are nama and rupa and thus, when citta arises it needs a physical base. For the sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) these are the sense bases, and all cittas other then these have another physical base, a rupa, and for convenience sake it is called heart base. In the Patthana it is referred to as "that rupa". The Comy explains that it is somewhere near the heart, but we should remember that Buddhism is not medical science. It does not matter how it is called and where it is exactly located, but it performs its function of being a base, vatthu. Brain: if the doctor pierces your brain, it hurts. Then at that place there is bodybase: it conditions the body-consciousness and pain by being its base, vatthu. If you burn your finger, that spot is body-base for that moment. Sortly afterwards there is dosa, and that has the heartbase. At this moment you cannot experience your brain directly. It is a mass of rupas we call brain. Take the brain out and what do you see: colour. Touch it: hardness. It consists of countless rupas arising and then falling away, gone forever. It is a poor thing that brain we find so important. Kamma produces at the first moment of life the rebirth-consciousness and at the same time three units of ten rupas, dasakas: one contains bodybase (bodysense, but very, very tiny, not yet developed) one the rupa of heartbase and one sex. At that moment (and only at that moment) heartbase and the citta condition one another by way of conascence-condition (sahajata paccaya). Citta could not arise without the heartbase and without the patisandhi-citta the heartbase could not arise. During life it is different. Then a base cannot condition citta at its arising moment, since rupa is too weak at its arising moment. It has to arise just before the citta it conditions, it conditions citta by way of base prenascence condition (vatthu purejata-paccaya). This is possible, because rupa lasts longer then citta (seventeen times longer). You may wonder, how is it possible that each citta grabs the right base. Yes, that is the way conditions work. It is all so extremely fast, no time to interfere! We read in the Patthana (Analytical Exposition): Cittas can be classified as mind-element and mind-consciousness-element. mind-consciousness-element includes the cittas other than the sense-cognitions and other than the cittas classified as mind-element (five-door adverting-consciousness, receiuving-consciousness). Thus one sentence of the Patthana is very compact and we should read it carefully: Here is reference to the rebirth-consciousness. Nina. 24893 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: subco Vis. 8: correction Dear Larry, subco Vis. 8: correction: A correction to be added to subco Vis. 8: Because of the meaning of crumbling away * the cycle (of birth and death) is called the world. (instead of the world is called the cycle) And add to footnote *: Atthasaalinii 47: For each sentence of the subco I have to pull out other books, to make a prestudy. Like: plane of seeing and development: Netti (the Guide) and Expositor II, about the Paths. Very interesting. I wait for you first. Nina. 24894 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Larry, op 02-09-2003 05:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Re: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself..." > > Looking at the sutta again, the object of citta anupassana seems to me > to be a general state of mind rather than individual thoughts. saraaga.m > citta.m translated by Soma Thera as "the consciousness with lust" could > be interpreted as a lusty state of mind rather than a lusty thought. N: just lobha-mulacitta, citta rooted in lobha, akusala citta. It can be desire for sense objects or concepts, anything. L: mahaggata.m citta.m translated as "the state of consciousness become > great" refers to jhana but probably not the jhana nimitta (conceptual > "sign" which is the object of jhana). The object of mindfulness would be > instead the general unbounded state of consciousness that is jhana. N: jhanacitta. Unbounded is used for a specifi jhana. L: "Citta" can be either mind or consciousness. I think "mind" would be a > good translation for citta in this case. It isn't exactly the > consciousness khandha that is the object of mindfulness. The object is > more of a general nature. N: I shall quote from my meanings of dhamma study: > However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used.> Now about the fourth object of satipatthana, mindfulness of mental objects. I quote: <""dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharatii"ti-aadiisu (dii. ni. 2.373) nissattanijjiivataaya.m. and again, ³he abides watchful over certain dhammas²-dhamma implies absence of an entity or living soul.².... Remarks: The last sentence refers to the fourth Application of Mindfulness: contemplating dhammas in dhammas. All objects of mindfulness which have not been classified in the first three Applications of Mindfulness are classified in the fourth Application of Mindfulness. This Application includes the cetasikas which are the five hindrances, it includes the five khandhas, the six internal and the six external aayatanas (sense-bases), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. These are all dhammas without a living soul, they are not a person, not a being, not self. > Nina. 24895 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/2/03 2:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > p.s Howard and others - I'll get back to you all. Somehow the Larry-ping > pong-along is being given priority, partly because it's quick;-) > ======================== I'm in no rush. I've always liked ping pong anyway! It's good neck exercise to watch, and in this case, it's good mind exercise as well. Larry's question-challenges are very useful - and they save me from being the unorthodox one for a change! ;-) Right on, Larry! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24896 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 8:25am Subject: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha (Re: [dsg]object and root conditions.) Hi, Jon (and Nina & Icaro) - I like what you have to sayvery much in the post of yours I copy below, Jon. I'll make some comments on one point you raise. You write of the difficulty in observing sense-door objects in an unalloyed manner. At the end of your post you write "As I said earlier, I fully agree with Nina that dhammas such as visible-object are difficult to know, they are elusive." I agree that they are elusive and difficult to know. In fact, I would say, though you may well disagree, that without a long history of cultivation and without setting up specific helpful conditions, the task is near impossible. This is so, because to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled night. Our minds are mired in reification of personal self and of "external objects", and in the grasping after and pushing away of these fictions - so much so that we don't even know what we are looking at. This, I think, is where the jhanas can play a beneficial role with regard to the arising of mindfulness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. Particularly, from the base of the 4th jhana (5th in Abhidhamma), there is a temporary suppression of the defilements, serving to temporarily disperse the clouds and the fog, and permitting the moonlight of insight to illuminate what comes and goes, which is then far more correctly observable should one then turn to investigation of dhammas. Now, I'm not saying that the jhanas are indispensable, just helpful. There will, without jhana practice, be ordinary occasions that occur at which the cloudiness and murkiness of one's mind is minimal, and, especially if other conditions are just right, mindfulness, clear comprehension, and even wisdom can arise, even quite dramatically and with lasting consequences. But the "odds" of this happening are better, I do believe, if one avails oneself of as much of the skillful means provided by the Buddha as possible. This is why I include samatha meditation in my practice along with study and contemplation of the Dhamma, guarding the senses, and carrying out ongoing mindfullness as best I can. I do think the samatha bhavana provides a useful support to all the rest. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/2/03 8:56:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Nina and Icaro > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Dear Icaro, > ... > >As I said, it is difficult to really know what the visible is, that > >which > >appears through the eye-door. It is difficult to know what a > >doorway is. I > >do not claim to understand these things, but let me be the parrot, > >as our > >friend Num says, imitating what I learnt: when your eyes are closed > >and then > >you open them, something appears what was not there before. There > >is not yet > >an image, but through eyes only: just colour or what is visible. > >The same > >through ears: when you do not pay attention to the source or the > >meaning of > >the sound, but just the characteristic of sound is heard, you can > >consider > >the meaning of audible object. This is the way to learn what sense > >objects > >are. No need to think of them as concepts in the mind. It would be > >wonderful > >if Jon would butt in and add something. I like to be reminded. > > I'm not sure that I can add anything of use here. I too find the > sense-door objects to be elusive customers. I do find it useful to > reflect on the basics of the mechanics as explained in the texts. > Perhaps I may just expand a little on Icaro's original statement: > >Citta receives the Rupa > >external our door-senses as an object perceived by the > >eye, the ear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! > > The object of all sense-door experience is 'raw' sense-door data, for > example, visible-data in the case of eye-door experience, or > audible-data in the case of ear-door experience. > > Sense-door data is just that. It may not experienced in chunks that > correspond to the 'things' that we take as being the 'source' of the > data. Visible data, for example, is not necessarily experienced in > discrete packages that correlate to trees, people etc; so at the > moment of being experienced there is no tree or person in the visible > data. Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees > and people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not > how the world is actually being experienced at that moment. > > Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to > imply that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being > similarly creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply > means it's a perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way > things are actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, > except that for the worldling there are conditions for such > perception to be accompanied by wrong view. > > As Icaro says, consciousness tends to take the sense-door data as > objects perceived by the sense faculties (e.g., as 'tree' being > perceived by the eye). In doing so it is off-base on 2 counts: > there is no perception of 'objects' *as objects*, and what perception > there is is by consciousness and not by the physical faculty, which > is merely the base for the arising of the consciousness. > > As I said earlier, I fully agree with Nina that dhammas such as > visible-object are difficult to know, they are elusive. However, > reflective consideration of the 'basics' such as we are now > discussing is useful, and can be a condition for better 'real-time' > understanding, although not at an occasion (i.e., as to time or kind > of dhamma) of our choosing. No expectations! > > Jon > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24897 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Ignorance (was Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah ...) Hello Sarah (Nori) and all, I really liked these quotes on ignorance. One of the byways we wandered down on the Cooran weekend concerned ignorance and animals. Do animals have more or less ignorance than human beings? One of our members thought that to say so was showing arrogant anthropocentric species-ism. (we do speak our minds :-)). Others pointed out that we are not locked into the human form with occasional 'disciplinary' or 'reward' trips into other forms. It included mention of the scriptures about the frog that heard the Dhamma just before it was squashed, and the bats in the cave that overheard some monks, who had a fortunate rebirths. (One wonders at the attribution to frogs and bats of the ability to understand human language ...) This conversation also touched on how kammically 'unlucky' one would be to have most of the 'good factors of life e.g. living in a time when the Dhamma was available, hearing the true Dhamma, living in a prosperous country, living a comfortable life with food and medical treatent readily available, being loved and kept safe - but to be an animal who couldn't understand the Dhamma [even though showing interest in the recordings of Brahma Viharas and, lately, the lectures of Bhikkhu Bodhi. [Rusty is cultivating his mind :-))] So, do animals have more ignorance than humans .. Idle thoughts arise about what proportion of one's uncountable lives are spent as a human compared to more unfortuanate forms of births - a bit scary to go there ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Only ignorance is the real obstacle whether we're living in the tent or > monastery or high-rise. > ..... > From the Netti-ppakarana.m,65: > > " `by ignorance is the world shut in, > Ajita' the Blessed One said. > ` `Tis undisplayed through miswishing (vivichhaa) and neglect, and > hankering smears it, I say; > Suffering is its greatest fear' " Sn1033; Pe13,83) > > "Bhikkhus, I say that, relatively speaking (pariyaayato), all creatures, > all breathing things, all beings, have one hindrance only, that is to say, > ignorance; for all beings, have ignorance as hindrance. And bhikkhus, it > is with the entire cessation of ignorance, with giving it up and > relinquishing it, that creatures have no more hindrance, I say." > > Netti, 499: > > "Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their > fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the > roundabout (cf Sii,178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the > ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now > among men." > > Nori, I hope there is something of help. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 24898 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:56pm Subject: Re: The heart base Hi Toby, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "torloff87048" wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the heart base as the physical support for the mind element and mind-consciousness. I know this base is not specifically stated in the Abhidhamma proper, but I assume the commentary that names it is authoritative. Any comments are appreciated. > > The obvious question is, what about the brain? My understanding is that the heart base is the physical support for citta and cetasika, while the brain can be understood as the physical support for mind-objects that are presented to the mind-door. If that is so, would it be correct to say that when a cetasika such as perception "marks" a mind-object, that this is another case of consciousness produced matter, in that the physical support for the mind-object (in the brain) is altered in some way by the mark? === In the original Abhidhamma texts, this was "the matter that the mind element is based upon". In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). The writers of the commentaries, following the tradition at the time (but not the Buddha's words), called this the "heart-base". It was clear to the ancients that sensory data moved in the body and the only thing that they could see moving in the body was blood. Obviously, the heart has a primary role in moving blood and so the ancients placed great importance on the heart. Even today in common speech we say, "I love you with all my heart" and the heart is seen as the source of emotions. Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. Consider what happens at the moment of rebirth. From a biological perspective, at this moment there exists only one cell but, from an Abhidhamma perspective, the heart-base rupa arises at this moment as a foundation for the rebirth linking citta. Again, it does not make sense to completely associate a base with a physical biological organ. There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced in whole here because it is short): === Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" === Toby, I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 24899 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The heart base Hi Rob M. This is a wonderful post of yours. ("Yours" = Conditions associated with this post.) ;) Great common sense that brushes aside the unimportant and gets to the important. TG In a message dated 9/2/2003 2:59:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > In the original Abhidhamma texts, this was "the matter that the mind > element is based upon". In classical India, it was believed that the > mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). The writers of the > commentaries, following the tradition at the time (but not the > Buddha's words), called this the "heart-base". It was clear to the > ancients that sensory data moved in the body and the only thing that > they could see moving in the body was blood. Obviously, the heart > has a primary role in moving blood and so the ancients placed great > importance on the heart. Even today in common speech we say, "I love > you with all my heart" and the heart is seen as the source of > emotions. > > Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated > cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, > life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. > Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the > eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? > Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the > biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. > > Consider what happens at the moment of rebirth. From a biological > perspective, at this moment there exists only one cell but, from an > Abhidhamma perspective, the heart-base rupa arises at this moment as > a foundation for the rebirth linking citta. Again, it does not make > sense to completely associate a base with a physical biological > organ. > > There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. > However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha > was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the > physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced > in whole here because it is short): > > === > > Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. > Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the > monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, > the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa > forest?" > "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. > Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." > "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct > knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I > have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not > connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy > life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to > cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to > Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I > have taught them. > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This > is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' > Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice > leading to the cessation of stress.'" > > === > > Toby, I hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 24900 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 11 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 11. 4. In the third dyad, when a man wants to begin insight, his understanding of the defining of the four immaterial aggregates is understanding as "defining of mentality", [439] and his understanding of the defining of the material aggregate is understanding as "defining of materiality". So it is of two kinds as the defining of mentality and of materiality. 24901 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Hi all, What's this all about: insight, mentality and materiality, defining? Larry 24902 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] peace, Icaro Dear Connie: Connie:" Thanks for all the great inspiration, Icaro. While > you're off > practicing field exercises and whatever, I'll be > drilling in grammar & > hoping I'm better at that than I ever was at > marching. Looking forward > to hearing the Buddhist cadences you pull out of the > Mother's cupboard. > I'm not in the army anymore, but I salute you, Sir. > connie" -------------------------------------------------- Thanks Connie!!! Fortunately you don´t need marching along anymore or stress your voice with "Yes Sir! No Sir!" But I will carry on... after my "trainee" term at the boot camp I will go back to Rio and Ipanema Beach... but hang ten only at Sundays!!!! (Geeez...it´s good to be appreciated, Connie!) With Metta and Peace, Ícaro P.S.: Do you like music ? ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24903 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The heart base and Patthana. Dear Nina: Nina: "It is western tradition to stress the brain so > much. But also liver, > blood, etc. play their part in our functioning, > dramatis personae. We are > nama and rupa and thus, when citta arises it needs a > physical base. For the > sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) these are the sense > bases, and all cittas > other then these have another physical base, a rupa, > and for convenience > sake it is called heart base. In the Patthana it is > referred to as "that > rupa"." ---------------------------------------------------- It´s the way I see it. Aristotle ruled all philosophical western world for two thousand years with lamed and awkward concepts about these questions. The Abhidhamma´s teaching is perfectly clever and free of superstitions and wrong views: "that rupa", as the Patthana says, is that other basis of elaboration, or representation of reality, that is not only five senses based - the "Heart Basis" is their foundation. Even at the Jhana´s level of approach, the first ones - Pitti-Sukha ones- connected with discourse based thinking and "High Happiness" - denotes the existence of a foundation beyond the five senses - calling this "heart basis" or "liver basis" or whatever is only a matter of terminology irrelevant to Abhidhamma´s classification. It´s only "that rupa". ------------------------------------------------------ The Comy explains that it is somewhere near > the heart, but we should > remember that Buddhism is not medical science. It > does not matter how it is > called and where it is exactly located, but it > performs its function of > being a base, vatthu. ------------------------------------------------------ Nina, you are right. At future I will take the Comys with more confidence! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24904 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]The book of Analysis Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/2/03 1:16:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) could be on your future list. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Once Iget through the DHS and the Guide to Conditional Relations unscathed, I will look into that! ----------------------------------------------- Also good for> > Icaro, but for him the fateful 13th is approaching. His departure. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, close. All the very best to him! ----------------------------------------------- The Intro> > is excellent, and fascinating examples for daily life (as quoted before, > about conceit), but also lists in it. The book is rather big. > Just curious to know what was in New York Library. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It will be a while before I get there. (It's not all that easy to find the time to get into Manhattan.) Probably won't get there till late this month. I have to arrange for a library card first - I'm not a NYC resident. After that, I'll check their Buddhist inventory and report back. --------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24905 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Similes of the Snake and Raft Dear Sarah, i like the co quote about the raft a lot. It is troublesome to get B.B.transl from Sri Lanka, I remember the way to pay was troublesome. But it was at Mahamakut Bgk and in Jan. I can go there. Nina. 24906 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]how long the road ahead Dear Jon and Mike, op 02-09-2003 14:19 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > However, like with facing up to the fact that 'akusala rules' (as > Mike so aptly put it), we should also be honest with ourselves as to > how little of the knowledge necessary to progress along the way > (i.e., how little insight) has been developed to date and, > consequently, how long the road ahead. N: I find it very helpful to be reminded of the development of insight by different people who write each in their own way. That is a boon we receive here in dsg. Just now Ken wrote about the middle way and gave the essence of it. Yes, and then that hair on the lens, priceless! I would like it very much if Mike would also add something, just to remind us of the long way ahead, but not being pessimistic about it. With appreciation, Nina. 24907 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 11:26pm Subject: thinking Hi Sarah, I would say discursive thinking (vicara) is an object of insight knowledge because it rises and falls. If you agree to that then possibly we could say "tree" doesn't rise and fall as a concept but does rise and fall as thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicara). How's that? Larry ps: also you might notice that discursive thinking isn't an object of citta anupassana but is an object of dhamma anupassana as included in the khandhas. pps: are ditthi as speculative thinking the same as vitakka avd vicara but with a different subject? Is "tree" kaama vitakka? Is "self" kaama vitakka? Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" vicára: 'discursive thinking' s.vitakka-vicára. vitakka: 'thought', 'thought-conception', is one of the 'secondary' (not constant) mental concomitants (s. Tab. II), and may be either karmically wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. - "There are 3 karmically unwholesome (akusala) thoughts: sensuous thought (káma-vitakka), hating thought (byápáda-v.), and cruel thought (vihimsa-v.). There are 3 karmically wholesome (kusala) thoughts: thought of renunciation (nekkhamma-v.), of hatelessness (avyápáda-v.), of not harming (avihimsá-v.) " The latter three constitute 'right thought', the 2nd link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga 2). On the 'Removal of Distracting Thoughts' (vitakka-santhána), s. M. 20 (tr. in WHEEL 21). vitakka-vicára: 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object. (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV). (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). 24908 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 0:49am Subject: touch all, If we do investigate, nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. Rupa is able to be touched. As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, it is not one object/thing, if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, it's not one object and it's not many objects, also i doubt it can be infinite objects. So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. so how come the touch is possible? /elias 24909 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Larry (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/3/03 2:27:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I would say discursive thinking (vicara) is an object of insight > knowledge because it rises and falls. If you agree to that then possibly > we could say "tree" doesn't rise and fall as a concept but does rise and > fall as thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicara). > How's that? > > Larry > > ps: also you might notice that discursive thinking isn't an object of > citta anupassana but is an object of dhamma anupassana as included in > the khandhas. > > pps: are ditthi as speculative thinking the same as vitakka avd vicara > but with a different subject? Is "tree" kaama vitakka? Is "self" kaama > vitakka? > > Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" > > vicára: 'discursive thinking' s.vitakka-vicára. > > vitakka: 'thought', 'thought-conception', is one of the 'secondary' (not > constant) mental concomitants (s. Tab. II), and may be either karmically > wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. - "There are 3 karmically unwholesome > (akusala) thoughts: sensuous thought (káma-vitakka), hating thought > (byápáda-v.), and cruel thought (vihimsa-v.). There are 3 karmically > wholesome (kusala) thoughts: thought of renunciation (nekkhamma-v.), of > hatelessness (avyápáda-v.), of not harming (avihimsá-v.) " The > latter three constitute 'right thought', the 2nd link of the 8-fold Path > (s. magga 2). > On the 'Removal of Distracting Thoughts' (vitakka-santhána), s. M. 20 > (tr. in WHEEL 21). > > vitakka-vicára: 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or > 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions > (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the so-called 'inner > speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, > giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the > consciousness to the object. > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to > and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of > mind" (Vis.M. IV). > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its > resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis > . IV.). > > ======================== Without any knowledge of details, the direction being taken here, your identification of "thoughts" with vitakka, vicara, and sa~n~na (I would add), seems right to me. Actually, I think that what we often take for a single thought is a structured, interrelated sequence consisting of many of these three activities - but it also seems to me to make sense that in every such case, there must be a single (but possibly repeated) culminating higher-level act of sa~n~na that marks, sums up, and recalls as a unit any such sequence of mental actions. It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards reification. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24910 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Dear Sarah: Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. For Burma trip, it's a bit expensive for a 7-day trip (40k baht?). We are going to skip it although I'd like very much to join you all. Enjoy the trip. Thankful, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jaran & Nina, > > --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Nina: > > > > Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure > > have some questions. > .... > Glad to see you around, Jaran. Are you coming to Burma? We'll also be at > the foundation the weekend before for discussions as will several others. > > Look f/w to your questions. It's been a great series. Thank you for > sharing it, Nina and for all the research. It's all under 'Dhamma' in UP > (or will be when updated), if anyone wishes to refer to the whole series > easily. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== ______________________________________________________________________ _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo. com.hk 24911 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. As it is rather long, I'm only responding to some parts of it. [...] > Jim: I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards to SN XVI.13, > the Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there is an interesting > section on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When scriptural learning > is declining, the practice declines: when the practice is declining, > attainment declines. When scriptural learning is being fulfilled, > individuals holding the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, > fulfilling the practice they fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have > seen other similar passages that make it quite clear that pariyatti > (scriptural learning) is a condition(paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), > and pa.tipatti is a condition for adhigamo" ] > ***** I have since found some more interesting details on this in the subcty. to Buddhappiya's Mahaaruupasiddhi (a Pali grammatical treatise). The threefold saasana is ultimately grounded on skilfulness in the 41 Pali letters (including grammar) for when this exist there is the understanding of pariyatti (the tipi.taka with the a.t.thakathaa-s). This is great as it really underscores the worthwhileness of studying and gaining expertise in Pali. Pa.tipatti (practice) is the threefold training and pa.tivedha (penetration) is the attainment of the nine lokuttara dhammas. Pa.tivedha seems to be interchangeable with adhigama. > [...] > >Fewness of wishes and contentment are included in the > > five ascetic practices (dhutadhammas) and relate to alobha. > > Kaayaviveka (bodily seclusion) would be another interesting one to > > look at. I don't know if this is included among the dhutadhammas, > > perhaps in pavivekataa. > .... > I'm sure many of the dhutangas relate to or are included. Perhaps the dhutadhammas should be better regarded as ascetic qualities or principles instead of practices as in the 13 dhutangas. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/dhutaanga.htm > My question, I suppose, is whether these don't just refer to the life of > the bhikkhu already highly accomplished in jhanas and other attainments > such as MahaKassapa? I'm inclined not to agree that these ascetic qualities are found only in those like Mahaakassapa. I believe they can be cultivated by anyone who can appreciate them although probably not to the same advanced level as a Mahaakassapa, but one never knows for sure. > .... > >I also like the 'nekkhamma' (renunciation) > > that Suan brought up. This term also belongs to sammaasankappa (right > > thought), the 2nd member of the noble eightfold path. > .... > Yes, but in the sense of renunciation from attachment, I think. I don't > see it as referring to 'bodily seclusion' at all. What do you think? I think bodily or physical seclusion could be a part of it. The thought of renunciation seems to be what motivates one to go forth into a state of homelessness as a pabbajita. I'm fully aware that separating oneself from the desired object doesn't necessarily eradicate the desire for it but in certain situations it can help. As I indicated in an earlier post, nekkhamma is a term I'm not too familiar with and I would therefore have to do some more studying. [...] > > I don't think it has to be 100% solitary confinement. There is some > > good commentary on MN1 describing a balance between living alone in > > the forest and interacting with society and why many of the suttas > > give two locations of the Buddha's abode: the place of resort (a > > village, town, or city) and the place of contemplation (eg. at the > > foot of a tree). > .... > Do you mean in the Mulapariyayasutta? Yes. that's it, the commentary on it. I don't have B. Bodhi's translation but the Pali commentary can be found at Ps I 12f (§27) PTS edn. > > Do you think the 'foot of a tree' references refer to those who have > already attained jhana or are highly adept in this regard? I think it refers to both plus those who aspire to become adepts, but in general the idea is that the forest or wilderness is the primary abode of those who have gone forth (pabbajita). [...] > I'm happy to consider or discuss any of these areas further. I know you've > considered them all very carefully and always have helpful comments and > references. Hopefully we'll be hearing more feedback from the Cooran group > and others like Suan and Mike as well. I'm glad to have seen that there has been at least some interest shown by you and a few others. I suspect that solitary living in a forest hermitage will remain only of interest to a very small number of us, whether or not we are involved in Buddhism. I think that this kind of living has many advantages and offers a practical long-term solution for some, especially in a Western society. One great advantage is that it gives one a lot of free time to pursue such things as studying Pali or developing samatha as these do require a lot of time, effort, and patience. And as I said earlier simple solitary living is suitable for one who has the temperament for it. Best wishes, Jim 24912 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Howard (& Lary), I’ve read all your ‘positions’ and all seem partly right as far as my understanding of the teachings goes. I’ll try to clarify first: 1.In a mind-door process (as opposed to a sense-door process), the cittas (consciousness) and accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) can take as object: 1)cittas or cetasikas that have just fallen away, 2)rupas which have just fallen away, having been experienced in a sense door process OR concepts.(We’ll forget about nibbana for now;-)) 2. In the case of concepts experienced as arammana (object),they are not cittas, cetasikas or rupas which have just fallen away like the other objects. They never existed, were never experienced through the sense doors and never themselves experienced other namas or rupas. 3. Regardless of the object experienced in this mind-door process, the cittas and cetasikas perform their functions as it is experienced. So, as an example, sanna (perception) always arises and marks the object, whether it be a nama, a rupa or a concept. Similarly, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) arise with each citta in the mind-door process, helping to ‘direct’ and ‘fix’ the citta onto its object. This is also true at moments when there is no thinking of concepts. 4. When it comes to sati(mindfulness) and panna(wisdom), naturally these only accompany wholesome cittas in the mind-door process. Sati accompanies all of these and panna some of them. Sometimes wholesome cittas have concept as object, for example when there is generosity or metta to a person or reflection on the Buddha’s qualities. 5. When we are referring to the development of satipatthana, vipassana, stages of insight, eightfold path and so on, however, only namas and rupas can be the objects of the cittas and accompanying sati, panna, vitakka, vicara, sanna and so on at these times. In other words, only these realities with specific qualities and characteristics can be directly known by insight, leading to enlightenment and the eventual eradication of all defilements. Understanding the truth about these same realities and their qualities is therefore essential. 6. What we conventionally refer to as thinking, would refer to many mind-door processes with concepts as objects. As the Buddha elaborated so well in suttas like the Mulapariyaya sutta, the difference between the wordling and the ariyan is that the wordling takes these experiences of concepts for being real, whereas the ariyan has no wrong view and understands exactly what realities really are. Direct insight can never develop merely by thinking about concepts. 7. The cittas and cetasikas that take concepts as objects are formed up and have all the characteristics of realities. They can be directly known. The concepts themselves -- no matter whether they relate to real or non-real percepts or concepts -- are only ever thought about and never exist in actuality to be directly known. Therefore, they do not have characteristics either. ***** So back to your last thought;-) H:> I've been mulling over exactly what it is that I mean for the most part when I speak of "thoughts", and I think that mainly, in addition to "the mind-door objects consisting of a variety of namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, sounds, etc," what I most particularly have in mind are acts of mind-door sa~n~na, the makings of mental tags/markings and the reviewing of such. It is these cognitive events that I most view as "thoughts".< .... S: the mind-door objects also include concepts: Lll/aaa/rrr/yyy - concepts about concepts about concepts. One moment of seeing visible object and then many many mind-door processes experiencing concepts. As you point out, sanna plays a vital role, marking its object according to its accumulated nature at each moment. The same with vitakka, vicara and all the other factors involved. I wouldn’t say it is so much the ‘cognitive events’ but the objects of these experiences that are the thoughts. (Note: sometimes in translations, thought is used to refer to cittas or cetasikas such as vitakka. I think this tends to confuse more, so when Nina or I or some others here refer to thoughts, we’re referring to concepts experienced by cittas and cetaskikas. As RobK quoted before, Karunadasa writes rather well I think about pannattis (concepts) in “Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma’, Wheel 412/3. http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm Here’s a short extract: “Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti);and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)."Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned(sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality.” ***** I think you’re both raising good points and questions and as you suggested, they need to be ‘ironed out’. I find it helpful to consider further and to try to clarify a I understand. Pls let me know whether this helps or not in zeroing in on the various ‘positions’. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ve only just seen the latest vitakka posts as I lost my internet connection today. Larry, lots of traffic on 7 (4);-) =================================== 24913 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: touch Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Elias wrote: > all, > If we do investigate, > nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. > Rupa is able to be touched. > As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, > it is not one object/thing, > if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, > it's not one object and it's not many objects, > also i doubt it can be infinite objects. > > So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > so how come the touch is possible? The following has been summarized from Nina's book, "Rupas": Rupas do not arise singly; they arise in groups. Each group is composed of different kinds of rupa. All groups (body and non-body) include the four "Great Elements" (Maha-bhuta rupas). Other rupas in the group depend on Great Elements. They are: - Element of Earth or solidity (pathavi dhatu) - Element of Water or cohesion (Apo dhatu) - Element of Fire or heat (Tejo dhatu) - Element of Wind (air) or motion (Vayo dhatu) In this context, Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not have the same meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent conceptual ideas; they represent ultimate realities, specific rupas which each have their own characteristic. For example, the Element of Earth has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be directly experienced when we touch something. It may seem that hardness can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. The hardness which is experienced now is already different from the hardness that arose a moment ago. Rather than thinking of "cushion" or "chair", we can understand that we are experiencing hardness or softness when we sit. Viewing the body and things around us as groups of rupas may be a new outlook to us. Gradually we realize that rupas are not abstract categories. Rupas are realities appearing in daily life. Each reality has a distinguishing characteristic. For example, solidity has hardness (or softness) as characteristic. Rupas have functions in relation to nama or other rupas. For example, solidity acts as a foundation for the other rupas in its group. Smell could not arise alone, it needs solidity as foundation. Visible object needs solidity as a foundation, though solidity cannot be seen. Manifestation is the way a reality habitually appears. Solidity is manifested as receiving, it receives the other rupas (it acts as their foundation). Each of the four Great Elements has the other three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together and condition one another. Earth ===== Solidity can be internal or external (outside the body). Solidity is also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material phenomena. Water ===== The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the body-sense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be experienced through the body-sense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes the other rupas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become scattered. Fire ==== The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the body-sense and it appears as heat or cold. The element of heat accompanies all kinds of materiality which arises, rupas of the body and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element of heat is one of the four factors which produce rupas of the body. Rupas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a rock are produced solely by temperature. The element of heat plays its part in the process of aging and in the digestion of food. So long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and falls away all the time. Wind ==== The rupa which is motion cannot be seen. The "conventional" meaning of motion is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We say that something has moved because there are different moments of seeing and thinking and there is association of these different experiences, but that is not the experience of the rèpa which is wind. This rèpa can be directly experienced through the body-sense. When we touch an object which has resilience, the characteristic of wind may present itself. This is the characteristic of the wind element. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. The function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is manifested as conveying. For example, it is a condition for the movement of the limbs of the body (but we should not confuse movement with the direct experience of this rupa through the body- sense). The element of wind arises with all kinds of materiality, both of the body and outside the body. With dead matter such as a pot, the element of wind ensures that the pot holds its shape and does not collapse. The element of wind plays its specific role in the strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse and assumes different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending of the limbs. Three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object: solidity (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The element of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are included in the "eight inseparable rupas" which always arise together. Though they arise together, only one kind of rupa at a time can be the object which is experienced. For example, when there are conditions for the experience of flavour, the flavour which impinges on the tasting sense is experienced by tasting- consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion and with visible object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that moment. Metta, Rob M :-) 24914 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - I address myself to just one part of your post: In a message dated 9/3/03 9:36:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > 2. In the case of concepts experienced as arammana (object),they are not > cittas, cetasikas or rupas which have just fallen away like the other > objects. They never existed, were never experienced through the sense > doors and never themselves experienced other namas or rupas. > > ========================= I'm afraid this makes *no* sense to me. Besides nibbana, all there are are cittas, cetasikas,and rupas. Concepts, it is repeatedly asserted, do not exist. What does not exist can NOT and is NOT taken as an object. Anything asserted, positive or negative,about a non-existent, is literally either false or meaningless (or is a shorthand for an assertion quite different from the face value of the given assertion). If there are no concepts, then there are no concepts .. period. What we actually experience is what we actually experience. If we *think* that we are experiencing something that does not exist, then we are simply deluded in that respect, and we should not speak of cognizing what does not exist. To say "I am thinking of a tree" is merely to describe the nature of the flow of one's thoughts in a metaphorical fashion. Taken literally, it is simply false. The thing is, however, it seems to me that when you say "concept" you refer to the alleged referent of what I mean when I say "concept". To me, a concept is an internal mental phenomenon collection of such. To me, a concept is a thought. Now, as far as I'm concerned, we *do* cognize thoughts. Thoughts do arise, continue a bit, and cease. What they *are* exactly I can't say. I *think* they are primarily sa~n~na-created marks/signs. After all, what mind-door objects can it be that vitakka hits upon and vicara continues to probe other than sa~n~na-created marks? When one says that concepts don't exist, I take that to mean that, with the exception of concepts of paramattha dhammas, it is the alleged *referents* of concepts that do not exist. The concepts, themselves, per se, are thoughts - internal sankharic creations, most likely sa~n~na-created mental tags. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24915 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 4:06am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/3/03 10:55:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > To me, a > concept is an internal mental phenomenon collection of such. ========================== I meant to write "To me, a concept is an internal mental phenomenon OR collection of such." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24916 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Dear Jaran, sure, there is a lot to discuss about this subject. It is useful even if you start with one question or remark about the beginning. No need to wait until you have digested all! Lodewijk asked when you will visit us again. Nina. op 02-09-2003 12:33 schreef jaranoh op jjn@b...: > Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure > have some questions. 24917 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The physical bases. Dear Rob M, Thank you for your post. Very appropriate that you quoted the Singsapa suttaJust a remark about the eyebase. op 02-09-2003 23:56 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated > cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, > life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. > Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the > eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? > Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the > biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. N: That point in the eye is extremely tiny, but it is rupa. This is explained by the Dhammasangani, the Patthana, the Co to the Dsg, Atthasalini. I think we should not deny this. See Expositor II, p. 403: the eye of the flesh is towfold: the compound organ and the sentient organ. The sentient organ (eyesense) is situated in and bound to it. . It makes sense to me that rupa supports nama. We can also read this in the Patthana. It is very clear. Eyebase is a condition different from earbase. Where else would these rupas be but somewhere in the eye or the ear? Of course we cannot touch them or see them, and they fall away immediately after they have arisen. Kamma keeps on producing them throughout life. Nina. P.S. Were you in Hong Kong and how were your discussions with Sarah and Jon? 24918 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11, defining nama and rupa. Hi Larry, op 03-09-2003 02:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What's this all about: insight, mentality and materiality, defining? >N: Very important: indispensable for insight. You have to know what nama is and what rupa, and be able to distinguish their different characteristics. A conditio sine qua non for the further development of insight. It is the first stage of tender insight. We read in the text: To begin is a rather flat translation of the Pali aarabhati: to undertake, to attempt. Aarambha: attempt, effort. It is often together with viriya, energy, courage or effort. There is the flavour of endeavour to aarabhati. We need courage and patience to "define" nama and rupa. We cannot expect a quick result. As we discussed, the three general characteristics cannot be known immediately. First the particular characteristics, visesa lakkhana have to be penetrated. I just listened to tapes of the late Abbot in the North of Thailand. He said: Yes only one characteristic, because there can be only one citta at a time. I have heard this many times from A. Sujin, but obviously the listening and considering has not been enough yet. We should not believe that we know all this already. I feel that the patience to consider nama and rupa is most important. He also said, if sati does not arise, it does not matter (maj pen rai), it is natural (thammada). Yes, the more we desire sati, the further from the goal. It is the function of panna to gradually develop and come to the stage of defining nama and rupa. Reminders from friends are welcome! Nina. 24919 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:20:10 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10 B ******* 10 B sikkhaakaamo hi aya.m aayasmaa, The venerable Rahula who was eager for training paatova gandhaku.tiparive.ne patthamatta.m vaalika.m okirati -- scattered early in the morning as much as a handful of sand in the area near the Fragrant Chamber, with the thought: ``ajja sammaasambuddhassa santikaa mayha.m upajjhaayassa santikaa ³May I receive today from the Buddha and from my preceptor ettaka.m ovaada.m ettaka.m paribhaasa.m labhaamii''ti. just so many words of exhortation and admonishment.² sammaasambuddhopi na.m etadagge .thapento -- The Buddha appointed him as foremost with the words: ``etadagga.m, bhikkhave, mama saavakaana.m bhikkhuuna.m sikkhaakaamaana.m yadida.m raahulo''ti The foremost, monks, among my disciples, who are monks eager for training, is Rahula.² sikkhaayameva agga.m katvaa .thapesi. Thus he appointed him as the foremost in training. sopi aayasmaa bhikkhusa"nghamajjhe tameva siihanaada.m nadi -- Moreover, the venerable Rahula uttered in the midst of the community of the monks this lion¹s roar: ``sabbameta.m abhi~n~naaya dhammaraajaa pitaa mama ³The King of the Dhamma, my father, who has known all this sammukhaa bhikkhusa"nghassa, etadagge .thapesi ma.m placed me foremost in the presence of the community of the monks. sikkhaakaamaanaha.m aggo, dhammaraajena thomito Praised by the King of Dhamma, I am the foremost of those who are eager for training, saddhaapabbajitaana~nca sahaayo pavaro mama and my noble friend (is foremost) of those who went forth out of confidence.* dhammaraajaa pitaa mayha.m The King of the Dhamma is my father, dhammaarakkho ** ca pettiyosaariputto upajjhaayo and the protector of the Dhamma, Sariputta who is like a father, is my preceptor. sabba.m me jinasaasana''nti. All of the Conquerer¹s teaching is for me.² **** English: The venerable Rahula who was eager for training scattered early in the morning as much as a handful of sand in the area near the Fragrant Chamber, with the thought: ³May I receive today from the Buddha and from my preceptor just so many words of exhortation and admonishment.² The Buddha appointed him as foremost with the words: The topmost, monks, among my disciples, who are monks eager for training, is Rahula. Thus he appointed him as foremost in training. Moreover, the venerable Rahula uttered in the midst of the community of the monks this lion¹s roar: ³The King of the Dhamma, my father, who has known all this placed me foremost in the presence of the community of the monks. Praised by the King of Dhamma, I am the foremost of those who are eager for training, and my noble friend (is foremost) of those who went forth out of confidence.* The King of the Dhamma is my father, dhammaarakkho ** ca pettiyosaariputto upajjhaayo and the protector of the Dhamma, Sariputta, who is like a father, is my preceptor. All of the Conquerer¹s teaching is for me.² ***** * The Tiika explains:< he mentioned in this connection his friend the Thera Ra.t.thapaala. He was placed foremost of those who went forth out of confidence.> ** The Tiika explains the word dhammaarakkho: < satthu saddhammaratanaanupaalako dhammabha.n.daagaariko. the teacher, the protector of the treasure of the true Dhamma, surveyor of the warehouse of dhamma-goods.> anupaalako: who guards aagaarika: belonging to a house, surveyor of a (store)house. **** Nina 24920 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: touch all, and rob. this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, it's not a complete answer. i will write more of emptiness. ex. chair, we will use chair as an exemple. through what you wrote it's build upon the four elements. at first sight there is a chair, if we look closer there's wooden parts, this wooden parts theirself if builded by wood, so theirs many many wooden objects that theirself creates a larger wooden part. These small wooden objects is different parts theirself, ex (water etc.).in the most science way this objects would be atoms. the atoms also have the be builded with other objects, or else the atoms couldn't exist. the objects that build up the atoms also they have to be builden by other objects, or else the atoms wouldn't exist, wouldn't theye xist, etc.etc. the chair wouldn't exist. the four elements is just a way of desribing but not fully investigate. A chair is not a chair, it's not one object. also it cannot be many objects, why? if it would be many objects, the objects would have a limit, but they do not, they continue infinite. simply there would only be emptiness, science can't discover that atoms are builded up by nothing, and that things exist by themself not builded up by anything. this can be hard to understand when ex there is science terms, H2O, is an exemple, that's water not onyl water but H and O). but H and O also need to be builed up by other objects or else they couldn't exist, they science way to anser this would be atoms. but atoms cannot exist by themself, they need to be builded up by other obhects as well, and this objects also have to etc.etc. so there's not one thing, and there's not many. this is one of the depest teachings in the mahayana, can be read in the heart sutra were avakoliteshvara(spelling?) speaks about it. As the main part in therevada seems to be calm, stillness, meditation, etc. mahayna do not onyl deal with that, wisdom is a major part as well. i do follow the theravada tradition, but if i am not satisfy of a text or others can't answer questions, i have to answer them myself, are the text etc. wrong, i still practice the theravada tradition ignoring that part, that seemed unright. /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Elias, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Elias > wrote: > > all, > > If we do investigate, > > nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. > > Rupa is able to be touched. > > As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, > > it is not one object/thing, > > if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, > > it's not one object and it's not many objects, > > also i doubt it can be infinite objects. > > > > So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > > would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > > so how come the touch is possible? > > The following has been summarized from Nina's book, "Rupas": > > Rupas do not arise singly; they arise in groups. Each group is > composed of different kinds of rupa. All groups (body and non-body) > include the four "Great Elements" (Maha-bhuta rupas). Other rupas in > the group depend on Great Elements. They are: > - Element of Earth or solidity (pathavi dhatu) > - Element of Water or cohesion (Apo dhatu) > - Element of Fire or heat (Tejo dhatu) > - Element of Wind (air) or motion (Vayo dhatu) > > In this context, Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not have the same > meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent > conceptual ideas; they represent ultimate realities, specific rupas > which each have their own characteristic. For example, the Element > of Earth has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be > directly experienced when we touch something. It may seem that > hardness can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. The > hardness which is experienced now is already different from the > hardness that arose a moment ago. > > Rather than thinking of "cushion" or "chair", we can understand that > we are experiencing hardness or softness when we sit. Viewing the > body and things around us as groups of rupas may be a new outlook to > us. Gradually we realize that rupas are not abstract categories. > Rupas are realities appearing in daily life. > > Each reality has a distinguishing characteristic. For example, > solidity has hardness (or softness) as characteristic. Rupas have > functions in relation to nama or other rupas. For example, solidity > acts as a foundation for the other rupas in its group. Smell could > not arise alone, it needs solidity as foundation. Visible object > needs solidity as a foundation, though solidity cannot be seen. > Manifestation is the way a reality habitually appears. Solidity is > manifested as receiving, it receives the other rupas (it acts as > their foundation). Each of the four Great Elements has the other > three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together > and condition one another. > > Earth > ===== > Solidity can be internal or external (outside the body). Solidity is > also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material > phenomena. > > Water > ===== > The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the > body-sense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call > water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be > experienced through the body-sense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to > arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes > the other rupas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become > scattered. > > Fire > ==== > The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the > body-sense and it appears as heat or cold. The element of heat > accompanies all kinds of materiality which arises, rupas of the body > and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element > of heat is one of the four factors which produce rupas of the body. > Rupas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a > rock are produced solely by temperature. The element of heat plays > its part in the process of aging and in the digestion of food. So > long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and > falls away all the time. > > Wind > ==== > The rupa which is motion cannot be seen. The "conventional" meaning > of motion is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We say > that something has moved because there are different moments of > seeing and thinking and there is association of these different > experiences, but that is not the experience of the rèpa which is > wind. This rèpa can be directly experienced through the body-sense. > When we touch an object which has resilience, the characteristic of > wind may present itself. This is the characteristic of the wind > element. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. The > function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is > manifested as conveying. For example, it is a condition for the > movement of the limbs of the body (but we should not confuse > movement with the direct experience of this rupa through the body- > sense). > > The element of wind arises with all kinds of materiality, both of > the body and outside the body. With dead matter such as a pot, the > element of wind ensures that the pot holds its shape and does not > collapse. The element of wind plays its specific role in the > strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse and assumes > different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending > of the limbs. > > Three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object: solidity > (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat > or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The element > of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only > through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are > included in the "eight inseparable rupas" which always arise > together. Though they arise together, only one kind of rupa at a > time can be the object which is experienced. For example, when there > are conditions for the experience of flavour, the flavour which > impinges on the tasting sense is experienced by tasting- > consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements > of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion and with visible > object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that > moment. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24921 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:59am Subject: dsg, touch. i did get an answer in the dhammastudygroup yahoo-group. i will present it here, with my answer. also i do now know what the words meant that ranil wrote, it were the words of the four elements in pali language. original message: ~ all, > > If we do investigate, > > nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. > > Rupa is able to be touched. > > As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, > > it is not one object/thing, > > if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, > > it's not one object and it's not many objects, > > also i doubt it can be infinite objects. > > > > So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > > would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > > so how come the touch is possible? re: post ~ > The following has been summarized from Nina's book, "Rupas": > > Rupas do not arise singly; they arise in groups. Each group is > composed of different kinds of rupa. All groups (body and non-body) > include the four "Great Elements" (Maha-bhuta rupas). Other rupas in > the group depend on Great Elements. They are: > - Element of Earth or solidity (pathavi dhatu) > - Element of Water or cohesion (Apo dhatu) > - Element of Fire or heat (Tejo dhatu) > - Element of Wind (air) or motion (Vayo dhatu) > > In this context, Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not have the same > meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent > conceptual ideas; they represent ultimate realities, specific rupas > which each have their own characteristic. For example, the Element > of Earth has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be > directly experienced when we touch something. It may seem that > hardness can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. The > hardness which is experienced now is already different from the > hardness that arose a moment ago. > > Rather than thinking of "cushion" or "chair", we can understand that > we are experiencing hardness or softness when we sit. Viewing the > body and things around us as groups of rupas may be a new outlook to > us. Gradually we realize that rupas are not abstract categories. > Rupas are realities appearing in daily life. > > Each reality has a distinguishing characteristic. For example, > solidity has hardness (or softness) as characteristic. Rupas have > functions in relation to nama or other rupas. For example, solidity > acts as a foundation for the other rupas in its group. Smell could > not arise alone, it needs solidity as foundation. Visible object > needs solidity as a foundation, though solidity cannot be seen. > Manifestation is the way a reality habitually appears. Solidity is > manifested as receiving, it receives the other rupas (it acts as > their foundation). Each of the four Great Elements has the other > three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together > and condition one another. > > Earth > ===== > Solidity can be internal or external (outside the body). Solidity is > also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material > phenomena. > > Water > ===== > The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the > body-sense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call > water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be > experienced through the body-sense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to > arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes > the other rupas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become > scattered. > > Fire > ==== > The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the > body-sense and it appears as heat or cold. The element of heat > accompanies all kinds of materiality which arises, rupas of the body > and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element > of heat is one of the four factors which produce rupas of the body. > Rupas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a > rock are produced solely by temperature. The element of heat plays > its part in the process of aging and in the digestion of food. So > long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and > falls away all the time. > > Wind > ==== > The rupa which is motion cannot be seen. The "conventional" meaning > of motion is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We say > that something has moved because there are different moments of > seeing and thinking and there is association of these different > experiences, but that is not the experience of the rèpa which is > wind. This rèpa can be directly experienced through the body-sense. > When we touch an object which has resilience, the characteristic of > wind may present itself. This is the characteristic of the wind > element. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. The > function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is > manifested as conveying. For example, it is a condition for the > movement of the limbs of the body (but we should not confuse > movement with the direct experience of this rupa through the body- > sense). > > The element of wind arises with all kinds of materiality, both of > the body and outside the body. With dead matter such as a pot, the > element of wind ensures that the pot holds its shape and does not > collapse. The element of wind plays its specific role in the > strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse and assumes > different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending > of the limbs. > > Three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object: solidity > (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat > or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The element > of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only > through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are > included in the "eight inseparable rupas" which always arise > together. Though they arise together, only one kind of rupa at a > time can be the object which is experienced. For example, when there > are conditions for the experience of flavour, the flavour which > impinges on the tasting sense is experienced by tasting- > consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements > of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion and with visible > object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that > moment. > > Metta, > name-not-written :-) my answer: ~ all, and name-not-written. this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, it's not a complete answer. i will write more of emptiness. ex. chair, we will use chair as an exemple. through what you wrote it's build upon the four elements. at first sight there is a chair, if we look closer there's wooden parts, this wooden parts theirself if builded by wood, so theirs many many wooden objects that theirself creates a larger wooden part. These small wooden objects is different parts theirself, ex (water etc.).in the most science way this objects would be atoms. the atoms also have the be builded with other objects, or else the atoms couldn't exist. the objects that build up the atoms also they have to be builden by other objects, or else the atoms wouldn't exist, wouldn't theye xist, etc.etc. the chair wouldn't exist. the four elements is just a way of desribing but not fully investigate. A chair is not a chair, it's not one object. also it cannot be many objects, why? if it would be many objects, the objects would have a limit, but they do not, they continue infinite. simply there would only be emptiness, science can't discover that atoms are builded up by nothing, and that things exist by themself not builded up by anything. this can be hard to understand when ex there is science terms, H2O, is an exemple, that's water not onyl water but H and O). but H and O also need to be builed up by other objects or else they couldn't exist, they science way to anser this would be atoms. but atoms cannot exist by themself, they need to be builded up by other obhects as well, and this objects also have to etc.etc. so there's not one thing, and there's not many. this is one of the depest teachings in the mahayana, can be read in the heart sutra were avakoliteshvara(spelling?) speaks about it. As the main part in therevada seems to be calm, stillness, meditation, etc. mahayna do not onyl deal with that, wisdom is a major part as well. i do follow the theravada tradition, but if i am not satisfy of a text or others can't answer questions, i have to answer them myself, are the text etc. wrong, i still practice the theravada tradition ignoring that part, that seemed unright. /elias 24922 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:08am Subject: pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Jim, I must learn to become independent in taking sutta and co from the net. It is good you will hibernate, otherwise I never will be independent. I tried the Tipitaka org recommended by Icaro. I do not know the most practical solution, but I copied a bit for trial, and did the search and replace command for 2 letters: .m and aa. I could more or less read the text with the funny signs beforehand and then find out the right letters, and it worked! I should make a separate list of all the funny signs and the proper Velthuis ones I need for replacing them. Is that the quickest? Then consulting my list I can get to work. I hope the Tipitaka also has Tika of Visuddhimagga, because meanwhile I may run out of texts, it depends on the tempo. Nina. 24923 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, touch. Dear Elias: Elias: "i did get an answer in the dhammastudygroup > yahoo-group. > i will present it here, with my answer." ----------------------------------------------------- Great! it´s good to hear about a clarification of mind due of our dearly dsg!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Elias: "also i do now know what the words meant that ranil > wrote, > it were the words of the four elements in pali > language." ----------------------------------------------------- Don´t give up your mental fight, Elias! About this question about Rupa and four elements, I could humbly add that the Dhammasangani explains Rupa as a COMPLETE Dhamma by itself (last stanza of the Dsg fourth book) - so you can´t deny it as a profound component of mind: citta. The four elements sound as a shallow description fo reality...but consider them as Kusala dhammas or Vittakas due to good Kamma accumulations: Buddha hadn´t a scientifical concern on explaining up dhamma to others. His perspective is much more phenomenological than rational, without put off aside entirely the last one. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24924 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Nina: Nina:" I tried > the Tipitaka org recommended by Icaro. I do not know > the most practical > solution, but I copied a bit for trial, and did the > search and replace > command for 2 letters: .m and aa. I could more or > less read the text with > the funny signs beforehand and then find out the > right letters, and it > worked! > I should make a separate list of all the funny signs > and the proper Velthuis > ones I need for replacing them. Is that the > quickest? Then consulting my > list I can get to work. > I hope the Tipitaka also has Tika of Visuddhimagga, > because meanwhile I may > run out of texts, it depends on the tempo. ---------------------------------------------------- It does have it !!!! www.tipitaka.org has also The Visuddhimagga-mahatika and the Visuddhimagga-nidaanakatha complete in Pali!!! Good Luck !!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24925 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch Hi Elias First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight in Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as it would appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop wisdom, wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns away" from samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta Pitaka. Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that difficulty might be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to come from mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized manner. Regarding this question: >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. >>so how come the touch is possible? 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs to learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing due to the interaction. 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of the energy flow. 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect each other. From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were speaking. I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally philosophically oriented. Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) TG In a message dated 9/3/2003 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes > all, and rob. > this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. > as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because > they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. > if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, > it's not a complete answer. > > i will write more of emptiness. > > ex. chair, we will use chair as an exemple. > through what you wrote it's build upon the four elements. > at first sight there is a chair, if we look closer there's wooden > parts, this wooden parts theirself if builded by wood, so theirs many > many wooden objects that theirself creates a larger wooden part. > These small wooden objects is different parts theirself, > ex (water etc.).in the most science way this objects would be atoms. > the atoms also have the be builded with other objects, or else the > atoms couldn't exist. the objects that build up the atoms also they > have to be builden by other objects, or else the atoms wouldn't > exist, wouldn't theye xist, etc.etc. the chair wouldn't exist. > > the four elements is just a > way of desribing but not fully investigate. > > A chair is not a chair, it's not one object. also it cannot be many > objects, why? if it would be many objects, the objects would have a > limit, but they do not, they continue infinite. simply there would > only be emptiness, science can't discover that atoms are builded up > by nothing, > and that things exist by themself not builded up by anything. > > this can be hard to understand when ex there is science terms, > H2O, is an exemple, that's water not onyl water but H and O). > but H and O also need to be builed up by other objects or else they > couldn't exist, they science way to anser this would be atoms. > but atoms cannot exist by themself, they need to be builded up by > other obhects as well, and this objects also have to etc.etc. > > so there's not one thing, and there's not many. > this is one of the depest teachings in the mahayana, > can be read in the heart sutra were avakoliteshvara(spelling?) > speaks about it. As the main part in therevada seems to be calm, > stillness, meditation, etc. mahayna do not onyl deal with that, > wisdom is a major part as well. > > i do follow the theravada tradition, but if i am not satisfy > of a text or others can't answer questions, > i have to answer them myself, are the text etc. wrong, > i still practice the theravada tradition ignoring that part, > that seemed unright. > > /elias 24926 From: connie Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: peace, Icaro Dear Icaro, It isn't often, but I do still find myself going mindlessly along with properly curled fingers, taking the regulation 30" stride. It's good for a laugh, especially if I'm in lock-step with someone else. So was your reminder of the ONLY time I yelled out "Yes, Drill Private!" at boot camp. I do like music, but hardly ever play it anymore. Was just now listening to a dhamma talk that ended in time for me to hear a whiny buzzing sound that must've come from one of the two flies I picked out of my cup. What I 'hear' in my head more often than music, as well as to any tune, is Nichiren's nam-myoho-renge-kyo. (Although I've read he was not the first to chant it). Not saying it's a good thing, just that it's there, like my walk. Earlier, I brushed aside a couple flies mating on the computer screen and don't know how many would-be fly babies might've had to go elsewhere then. But, I remembered that I still haven't gotten back with Sarah about intermediate states/bardo and really don't know that I will pursue it. I'm still content to think of bardo as a string of moments like any other lifetime. I don't appreciate the flies, but suppose there are worse places to start out than on a computer playing dhamma talks. vanda then, since I don't know how to conjugate it yet, connie 24927 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: touch Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > all, and rob. > this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. > as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because > they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. > if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, > it's not a complete answer. It helps if each of us trim the post to which we are replying. If we do not do this (I forget sometimes, too), then exchanges become extremely long. Let me try to explain this in a different way. There is a woman living in my house. I see her as "wife". My kids see her as "mommy". The person next door sees her as "neighbour". Our doctor see her as "patient". The salesperson sees her as "customer". All of these perspectives are correct. Our perspective depends on our relationship with the object. Molecular structure, molecules, atoms and subatomic particles is the scientist's perspective of tangible object. A scientist tries to create a model for reality, but this is only one perspective. A phenomenologist sees tangible object as being hardness, temperature and motion. A phenomenologist focuses on input from the senses - this is an equally valid perspective. I am going to repeat here a portion of a recent posting of mine (24898): There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced in whole here because it is short): === Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" === A radical phenomenologist denies the relevance of existence of those things that do not impinge on the senses. The Buddha's perspective does not fit neatly into the definition of radical phenomenlolgy; the Buddha's view focuses on "things connected with the goal (Nibbana), relate to the holy life, etc." The Buddha's view extends beyond that of a radical phenomenologist in that it also includes the understanding that all things except Nibbana (contacting the senses or not) have the three characterisitics of anicca (impermanance), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-self). Elias, I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 24928 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch Hi, TG - I don't usually do this .. and many folks frown on it .. but I just can't let your post go by without shouting out "Sadhu X 3"! This is one of the most delightful succinct praisings of "Tipitaka Buddhism" I have seen. (I know you only mention the Sutta Pitaka, but what you say fits perfectly well with Abhidhamma also, it seems to me.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/3/2003 5:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458 writes: > > Hi Elias > > First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop wisdom, > wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns away" from > samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta Pitaka. > > Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that difficulty might > be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to come from > mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized manner. > > Regarding this question: > >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > >>so how come the touch is possible? > > 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing > due to the interaction. > > 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. > > 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with > cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. > > 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of the > energy flow. > > 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect each > other. > > From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the > SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I > even realized the depth at which they were speaking. I came to realize that > the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by > comparison is generally philosophically oriented. Initially, I also thought Mahayana > was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 > years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking > about the Sutta Pitaka and > not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) > > TG 24929 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: peace, Icaro Dear Connie: connie :"I do like music, but hardly ever play it anymore. > Was just now > listening to a dhamma talk that ended in time for me > to hear a whiny > buzzing sound that must've come from one of the two > flies I picked out > of my cup." ------------------------------------------------------ Surf slang... Personally, I like very much the H.H. Dalai Lama audiotapes! Relaxing! But what kind of music do you like ? Heavy Metal ? Salsa & Merengue ? Latin ? Beach Boys (good for surfing...hahahah!!!)? Elton John...? ------------------------------------------------------- Connie: "What I 'hear' in my head more often than > music, as well as > to any tune, is Nichiren's nam-myoho-renge-kyo. > (Although I've read he > was not the first to chant it). Not saying it's a > good thing, just that > it's there, like my walk." ---------------------------------------------------- I like the melody of the Nam Myoho Rengue Kyo: last Sunday I was strolling at the Hippie´s Fair at Ipanema and I heard two ladies chant it. Amazing! But Nichiren´s Daishonin´s buddhism, even totally based on Lotus Sutta, doesn´t appeal me very much. I am a bit traditional on my viewpoints! ----------------------------------------------------- >Connie:" Earlier, I brushed aside a couple flies mating on > the computer screen > and don't know how many would-be fly babies might've > had to go elsewhere > then. But, I remembered that I still haven't gotten > back with Sarah > about intermediate states/bardo and really don't > know that I will pursue > it. I'm still content to think of bardo as a string > of moments like any > other lifetime. I don't appreciate the flies, but > suppose there are > worse places to start out than on a computer playing > dhamma talks." ------------------------------------------------------- Think about the chain of thinking/feeling that starts with the hear-conscience of perceiving the Dhamma talk,connected with the akusala moods about the two flies that leads to a definite action to trap them inside your cup. Freud could call this a "failed act"... but let´s view this at the Abhidhamma´s stands: it´s only a reaction of a state of mind connected with akusala and the rupa of flies, that leads to a definite action: now you have got two flies traped on your cup. Kamma begins its flow. Did you not killed them...huh ? ------------------------------------------------- > Connie: "vanda then, since I don't know how to conjugate it > yet, > connie" --------------------------------------------------- Oh, don´t despair!!! With patience you will reach the other shore... and me, an English not so squared!!! Mettaya and peace, Ícaro P.S.: but... speaking seriously: did you not kill the flies, right ? ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24930 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch Dear TGrand TGrand:"First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result > of wisdom/insight in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to > "artificially establish" as it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. > First develop wisdom, > wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and > the mind "turns away" from > samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor > in the Sutta Pitaka." ---------------------------------------------------- Well, TGrand, your approach is Mahayana to the marrow and bone! At Theravada, Wisdon - Pañña - is the end of a process that begins with Sila - Discipline. It´s not a "finality" as an Aristotelic concept. For western minds it sounds strange, but think about the tasks endowed at the man or woman that takes the first step on Path, the Sotapanna: to clean and purify one own´s mind of wrong views, connected or not with pleasure or knowledge. It´s not Philosophy at general view... it´s an existential step. ------------------------------------------------------ > TGrand:" 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self > because they are conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning > that there is nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of > self, i.e., emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" > it is viewing things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things > as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing > "object-entities," the mind needs to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting > and continuously changing > due to the interaction." ----------------------------------------------------- This concept of Emptiness is more akin of the Mahayana´s shunyatta. The Theravada takes this question for another side, with sometimes a strong grammatical colors! ---------------------------------------------------- > TGrand:" 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both > energies. > > 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy > associated with > cognition. Rupa is energy other than that." ------------------------------------------------------ You are mixing concepts that are very, very different in meaning. "Energy" is a term coined by Aristotle, that meant originally the immobile axle of a mobile Wheel. Rupa and Nama are aggregates of elements of existence, and Rupa is a Complete Dhamma by itself! ------------------------------------------------- TGrand:" From someone who had studied Mahayana for years > before studying the > SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several > months of reading the Suttas before I > even realized the depth at which they were speaking. > I came to realize that > the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" > whereas Mahayana by > comparison is generally philosophically oriented. > Initially, I also thought Mahayana > was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious > months of study (now 22 > years) I came to understand, that in terms of > wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am > speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and > not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.)" ----------------------------------------------------- Best studies! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24931 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 8:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobEp, > > Always good to see you;-) ;-) Thank you. Nice to see you too, and to see all the deep topics continuing to arise here. > > Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting > > me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and > > what is not. > .... > Don?t run away so fast!What?s the hurry? How?s your summer been and is the > drama book finished? Meet some of our newer members and talk to Larry when > he gets frustrated with my clumsy language & posts;-) > > Metta, > Sarah Yes, it seems like things are pretty exciting around here! Unfortunately for me, I'm pretty overwhelmed. I hope I can look at the Vism thread and trace it back a little after I finish some current projects. I'd like to see Nina's recent translation and some of the discussion.... > p.s Newbies, Rob Ep has the no 1 slot in the photo album. I think Emmy now > heads her own album of ?significant others?. Emmy is starting Kindergarten tomorrow - her first day of "real school." Pretty amazing. She's now five and doing great. Perhaps you can encourage > others to join - after all, weren?t you meant to be Keeper of the Album? Yes, and I have failed miserably, after a good beginning. I guess I'm finding all my responsibilities kind of overwhelming.... : ) I'll look forward to seeing you here again, and thanks for letting me "pop in." : ) Regards, Robert Ep. 24932 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 9:49pm Subject: *Jaran* -waiting for feedback;-)(was: meanings of dhamma, no 11.) Dear Jaran & Nina (& Rob Ep), --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Sarah: > Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. ..... That would be good;-)No need to apologise, but to be honest, I’m not sure if you stay around long enough to read slow replies to your occasional posts....;-( For example, you sent a bulletin of a discussion at the foundation w/ K.Sujin and asked a qu about ‘sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight)’. I was very slow getting back on this, but did eventually with more conversation w/ K. Sujin in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19874.html A lot of discussion followed. You could follow the links at the end of the post. We'd be glad to hear any of your feedback. > Enjoy the trip. ..... Thx Jaran. I had hoped you and Kom would be joining, but understand about costs and so on. As many of us will be away at that time, any contributions of yours on DSG would be much appreciated. Nina may be away hiking as well, so Larry will be looking for Vism pals. (Rob Ep, perhaps you’ll be able to join in then if not before too;-)). Nina, you mentioned ordering B.Bodhi translations from Sri Lanka. So many of our orders have gone astray. When possible, we order now from Pariyatti which is very fast and efficient. You just need to give a credit card no., I think. You don’t need to live in the States. http://www.pariyatti.com/ Metta, Sarah ==== 24933 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:22pm Subject: Re: touch hi rob, anatta seems to be the important parts in these answers, anatta means no-self, but go the other direction to no-self, that would be many-self, infinite-selfs. and this cannot be, because an object can't exist by itself, if it's not builded by other objects, the main object cannot exist. So as you mentioned "wife". that would be human, a human form is builded up with organs, blood, hair etc. and these parts (blood, hair etc.) is builded up by cells, atoms etc. and these parts (atoms, cells) have to be builded up by other objects, smaller objects, or else they couldn't exist. ok, so it's anatta, no-self. now let's se how the object do exist, if it cannot be a 'self'. in that wa it has to be builded up by other objects, and they to is not a 'self'. you mentioned atoms etc, these things cannot just exist by nothing, they have to be builded up by minor objects to exist. as for the four elements, it is a good way to describe things, but what is the elements builded of? /elias It helps if each of us trim the post to which we are replying. If we > do not do this (I forget sometimes, too), then exchanges become > extremely long. > > Let me try to explain this in a different way. There is a woman > living in my house. I see her as "wife". My kids see her as "mommy". > The person next door sees her as "neighbour". Our doctor see her > as "patient". The salesperson sees her as "customer". All of these > perspectives are correct. Our perspective depends on our > relationship with the object. > > Molecular structure, molecules, atoms and subatomic particles is the > scientist's perspective of tangible object. A scientist tries to > create a model for reality, but this is only one perspective. A > phenomenologist sees tangible object as being hardness, temperature > and motion. A phenomenologist focuses on input from the senses - > this is an equally valid perspective. > > I am going to repeat here a portion of a recent posting of mine > (24898): > > There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. > However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha > was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the > physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced > in whole here because it is short): > > === > > Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. > Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the > monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, > the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa > forest?" > "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. > Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." > "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct > knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I > have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not > connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy > life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to > cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to > Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I > have taught them. > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This > is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' > Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice > leading to the cessation of stress.'" > > === > > A radical phenomenologist denies the relevance of existence of those > things that do not impinge on the senses. The Buddha's perspective > does not fit neatly into the definition of radical phenomenlolgy; > the Buddha's view focuses on "things connected with the goal > (Nibbana), relate to the holy life, etc." The Buddha's view extends > beyond that of a radical phenomenologist in that it also includes > the understanding that all things except Nibbana (contacting the > senses or not) have the three characterisitics of anicca > (impermanance), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-self). > > Elias, I hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24934 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: dsg, touch. oh, this e-mail were sent to the wrong @yahoo.com adress :/ 24935 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards reification." Hi Howard, I'm tending to think of sa~n~na as a symbol maker and something that identifies by matching past symbol to present experience but I still don't have a clear understanding of what is meant by the "carpenter's mark". [We will discuss this further in a few weeks in the Vism. thread.] Here is something on "compactness" which might relate to your idea above: Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial staes have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). Larry: There's plenty to think about here. We will be revisiting this in about two years when we get to this part of the Visuddhimagga. 24936 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/4/03 1:37:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making > function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards > reification." > > Hi Howard, > > I'm tending to think of sa~n~na as a symbol maker and something that > identifies by matching past symbol to present experience but I still > don't have a clear understanding of what is meant by the "carpenter's > mark". [We will discuss this further in a few weeks in the Vism. > thread.] > > Here is something on "compactness" which might relate to your idea > above: > > Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means > that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as > an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial staes have > arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for > example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of > mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And > likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite > differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as > one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although > differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make > them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are > seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, > they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They > are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this > way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). > > Larry: There's plenty to think about here. We will be revisiting this in > about two years when we get to this part of the Visuddhimagga. > =============================== Hmm. Yes, plenty to think about. The language is a bit dificult to follow, I find, but I agree that there is some richness here,and it seems quite important! This material seems to be getting at the guts of the matter of reification and corelessness. It seems to me that the Vism needs a far more fair reading than I have given it!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24937 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Hi all, Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the corporeality group. Whatever there exists of feeling ... of perception ... of mental formations ... of consciousness ... all that belongs to the consciousness-group" (S. XXII, 48). - Another division is that into the 2 groups: mind (2-5) and corporeality (1) (náma-rúpa), whilst in Dhamma Sanganí, the first book of the Abhidhamma, all the phenomena are treated by way of 3 groups: consciousness (5), mental factors (2-4), corporeality (1), in Páli citta, cetasika, rúpa. Cf. Guide I. What is called individual existence is in reality nothing but a mere process of those mental and physical phenomena, a process that since time immemorial has been going on, and that also after death will still continue for unthinkably long periods of time. These 5 groups, however, neither singly nor collectively constitute any self-dependent real ego-entity, or personality (attá), nor is there to be found any such entity apart from them. Hence the belief in such an ego-entity or personality, as real in the ultimate sense, proves a mere illusion. "When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." (S. V. 10). The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities. In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups: "What, o monks, is the corporeality-group? The 4 primary elements (mahá-bhúta or dhátu) and corporeality depending thereon, this is called the corporeality-group. "What, o monks, is the feeling-group? There are 6 classes of feeling: due to visual impression, to sound impression, to odour impression, to taste impression, to bodily impression, and to mind impression.... "What, o monks, is the perception-group? There are 6 classes of perception: perception of visual objects, of sounds, of odours, of tastes, of bodily impressions, and of mental impressions.... "What, o monks, is the group of mental formations? There are 6 classes of volitional states (cetaná): with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... "What, o monks, is the consciousness-group? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness." About the inseparability of the groups it is said: ''Whatever, o brother, there exists of feeling, of perception and of mental formations, these things are associated, not dissociated, and it is impossible to separate one from the other and show their difference. For whatever one feels, one perceives; and whatever one perceives, of this one is conscious" (M. 43). Further: "Impossible is it for anyone to explain the passing out of one existence and the entering into a new existence, or the growth, increase and development of consciousness independent of corporeality, feeling, perception and mental formations" (S. XII, 53) For the inseparability and mutual conditionality of the 4 mental groups s. paccaya (6, 7). Regarding the impersonality (anattá) and emptiness (suññatá) of the 5 groups, it is said in S. XXII, 49: "Whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, this one should understand according to reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I not, this is not my Ego.' " Further in S. XXII, 95: "Suppose that a man who is not blind were to behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they are driving along; and he should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining them, however, they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. In exactly the same way does the monk behold all the corporeal phenomena ... feelings ... perceptions ... mental formations ... states of consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future ... far or near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial." The 5 groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick (S. XXII, 95). http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm 24938 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 0:15am Subject: Bahiya1 intro (was peace, Icaro) Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Dear Icaro, > > It isn't often, but I do still find myself going mindlessly along with > properly curled fingers, taking the regulation 30" stride. It's good > for a laugh, especially if I'm in lock-step with someone else. So was > your reminder of the ONLY time I yelled out "Yes, Drill Private!" at > boot camp. .... I see you’re well in lock-step with Icaro and have even learned ‘Icarish’....good for you and also for sharing your appreciation of his posts. He’s shown the world that Abhidhamma study doesn’t need to be DRY, ACADEMIC, HEAVY, SUPER-SERIOUS and so on. He’s also shown that one can still listen to music and march along. No need to become a robotic encyclopaedia. We’ll all look forward to any boot-camp diary Patthana reflections of his;-);-) .... > But, I remembered that I still haven't gotten back with Sarah > about intermediate states/bardo and really don't know that I will pursue > it. I'm still content to think of bardo as a string of moments like any > other lifetime. .... Not to worry, Connie, I’m about to pursue it anyway, as you’ve reminded me of a great quote I came across in the Udana commentary. I’m actually planning now to write a series of posts, including the one to you, from this same commentary to the well-know Bahiya Udana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html As I’ve had posts swimming round in my head for a while on this, I think I’ll try not to respond to other threads until I get these written over the next few days. (We’re meeting RobM this afternoon after having to cancel for the typhoon earlier in the week when Hong Kong came to a standstill, so won’t get very far today). Meanwhile, Connie, keep up your discussions with Icaro and add to our threads on soldiers, solitary seclusion, ignorant insects or anything else of interest. Metta, Sarah ======= 24939 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 1:21am Subject: Bahiya2 - *Connie* -intermediate becoming HI Connie & All, I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The on-line sutta can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html As you reminded me, before we discussed a little about intermediate states (antaraabhava) which are often referred to in other Buddhist traditions as ‘bardo’. I quoted from the Abhidhamma text, the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18195.html In Bk V111,2,”Of an Intermediate State’, the Kathavatthu discusses in detail why the proposition “that there is an intermdiate state of existence” is not valid. I don’t think there is any difference of understanding between us here or elsewhere, Connie, but as it is a common misperception about the Buddha’s teaching, I’m using your comment as an excuse add more detail from the Ud and Ud-a. ***** The Buddha encourages Bahiya to understand the objects experienced through the sense doors and the six classes of consciousness. “ ‘With respect to the seen...merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’: with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness.” The Buddha is stressing that mere dhammas exist. A little later in the Ud-a we read: “For, in this connection, the sight-base is called ‘the seen’ (di.t.tha.m)in the sense that it is something that is to be beheld, (as is) eye-consciousness, together with the consciousness associated with the doors therefor, in the sense of seeing, both of these, occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise?...” This is important, because, ideas of intermediate states are often wrapped up in an idea of self or control. The Buddha says a little later in the sutta: “When you, Bahiya, are not therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha), then you, Bahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both (tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)- this alone is the end of dukkha.” Ud-a makes it clear that the first few words refer to how having fully understood the deep meaning of the previous words, along with path-fruition, Bahiya ‘will be neither excited with that lust, blemished with that anger, nor deluded with that delusion, then, or alternatively therefore, you [Bahiya] will not be therein, in that seen and so on, you will not be attached, established, either in that seen or in that heard, sensed and cognised, by way of craving, conceit and (wrong) view thinking ‘This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self’.” In otherwords, arahantship and parinibbana at the end of his life, the end of all dukkha. Ud-a continues: “It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg Aiv70ff) and ‘Those who are become or those seeking becoming’(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such thing)’, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as ‘those who are become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been abandoned....” There is a lot more detail, but I’ll leave it here with this last quote given in Ud-a on the same subject: “For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the (canonical) Pali, what business is there in postulating an intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?” Any comments welcome. With metta, Sarah ====== 24940 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya1 intro (was peace, Icaro) Dear Sarah: Sarah:"I see you’re well in lock-step with Icaro and have > even learned > ‘Icarish’....good for you and also for sharing your > appreciation of his > posts. He’s shown the world that Abhidhamma study > doesn’t need to be DRY, > ACADEMIC, HEAVY, SUPER-SERIOUS and so on." ------------------------------------------------- Dagodigodagodoo!!! Geez...Thanks Sarah! I take the Abhidhamma´s study at a very fair way. It is very clever at one side: no need to worry about concepts that are showed at a pristine way from Dhammasangani to Patthana! But Comys as the Buddhaghosa´s Visuddhimagga are a hard climb indeed for any reader! I will survive the boot camp and come back to my studies! -------------------------------------------------- He’s also > shown that one can > still listen to music and march along. No need to > become a robotic > encyclopaedia. We’ll all look forward to any > boot-camp diary Patthana > reflections of his;-);-) --------------------------------------------------- Great! The Great Patthana and its Combinatory Analysis of Paccayoti, Kusala and akusala dhammas and so on is mesmerizing me .... someday I will get full dominion of all its stanzas!!! I will take a very clear path at boot camp: since all reality comes from out us by sense-doors, so I will take the firm decision to view all thse interplay of nama and rupa, Citta and cetasika as a direct linking of thoughts - like the Paticca-samuppada, without the twisting an curling of personal opinions and viewpoints: hetu-paccaya combining with akusala sampayutta and rupadhamma and so on. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24941 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Nina, It's wonderful to hear about your success! It's probably the best way given that you have to do it on your Mac. It would have been easier if you had a PC as you might have been able to use Andy Shaw's PaliTrans font conversion utility program. Manually replacing the characters can be a little time-consuming. Can you copy and paste a whole book (eg. Vism Mahatika vol 2) from tipitaka.org? If you can do that and convert each of the funny characters to Velthuis then you can acquire just about any Pali book you need. It looks as though the Vism discussion will reach XIV.32 before I come back online at year's end. But before I go, I could prepare another Vism text file to upload to the DSG files folder. I just need to know whether the group wishes to carry on from XIV.33 or go directly to the last chapter on the benefits of developing understanding (as I had suggested earlier) and then go back and carry on from XIV.33 with the detailed analysis of the aggregates. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > I must learn to become independent in taking sutta and co from the net. It > is good you will hibernate, otherwise I never will be independent. I tried > the Tipitaka org recommended by Icaro. I do not know the most practical > solution, but I copied a bit for trial, and did the search and replace > command for 2 letters: .m and aa. I could more or less read the text with > the funny signs beforehand and then find out the right letters, and it > worked! > I should make a separate list of all the funny signs and the proper Velthuis > ones I need for replacing them. Is that the quickest? Then consulting my > list I can get to work. > I hope the Tipitaka also has Tika of Visuddhimagga, because meanwhile I may > run out of texts, it depends on the tempo. > Nina. 24942 From: susan macqueen Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:12am Subject: Hi, I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. I look forward to learning from the people on this website and listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my own. Susan 24943 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 6:07am Subject: Welcome and new series Hi Susan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" wrote: > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my own. Welcome to DSG! Sarah and Jon are the moderators and they live in Hong Kong. I am traveling on business to Hong Kong and have just returned from a delightful three hour dhamma-filled discussion with them in a hotel lobby. One of the topics that we discussed tonight is the number of new members on DSG. Some time ago, I prepared a scripted PowerPoint presentation called "Introduction to the Abhidhamma" (available as a PowerPoint or as a .PDF in the files section of DSG). Sarah and Jon encouraged me to post one slide at a time from this presentation for group discussion every few days. I had started this some time ago and was about half way through when my work required me to take a break from DSG. Given the number of new members, I have decided to start again at the beginning. I apologize to the older members who have already read this material - perhaps it will trigger a new line of discussion. Susan, I hope that you and the other new members will add your comments / questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 24944 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 6:12am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi All, In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 24945 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:13am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > > > We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M., I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...I bet you will guess right on the first try though! ;-) Metta, James p.s. Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. 24946 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: *Jaran* -waiting for feedback;-)(was: meanings of dhamma, no 11.) Dear Sarah: :"> This time, I do need to apologize. I missed it completely. Give me 2 days. Thanks for your summary. I printed it out. Will talk later. (usual) Guilt, :-) jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Jaran & Nina (& Rob Ep), > > --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Sarah: > > Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. > ..... > That would be good;-)No need to apologise, but to be honest, I'm not sure > if you stay around long enough to read slow replies to your occasional > posts....;-( For example, you sent a bulletin of a discussion at the > foundation w/ K.Sujin and asked a qu about `sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of > insight)'. > 24947 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: touch : To TG Dear TG, Elias, and all How are you? You wrote: "From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the Sutta Pitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were speaking. ------ ---- I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally philosophically oriented. ---- ----- Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.)" TG, your above observations are very insightful. More than two decades before in Myanmar, I have had a very bizarre idea - after reading "Systems Of Buddhistic Thoughts" By S. Yamakami. This book wrote about how a later Mahayana sect was better than or more advanced than a previous one. The bizarre idea I had was that I could generate many Mahayana sects by selecting some Suttas from the Pali Sutta Pi.taka. All I needed to do was to interpret some statements in those Suttas in absolute terms or interpret them out of context by basing on personal opinions alone - that is to say, without consulting the elucidations given in the standard commentaries. And I could even give them names after the selected Suttas. It is very easy to do, really. :-) There you have it! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: Hi Elias First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight in Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as it would appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop wisdom, wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns away" from samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta Pitaka. Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that difficulty might be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to come from mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized manner. Regarding this question: >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. >>so how come the touch is possible? 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs to learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing due to the interaction. 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of the energy flow. 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect each other. From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were speaking. I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally philosophically oriented. Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) TG 24948 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, James (and Rob) - In a message dated 9/4/03 10:14:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > > > > > >We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > >experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > >of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > >explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > >important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > >Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > >a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > > > >Comments? > > > >Metta, > >Rob M :-) > > Hi Rob M., > > I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri > Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...I bet you will guess > right on the first try though! ;-) > > Metta, James > p.s. Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! > Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. > > > ================================ I think one doesn't have to look far to spot tones of conceit in *each* of us. I think that when we are very, very sure about a matter that we don't truly know first hand - which applies to almost every opinion on almost everything that almost everyone of has - conceit is there. We're all filled with opinions, and we all think we are "right". I'm engaged in that at this very moment! (Of course, there *are* degrees to things.) I happen to think that viewing knowledge of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as essential is a view that goes too far. Specifically, I think the statement " ... the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma" is simply false. This is provable, I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going "too far". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24949 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:05am Subject: Egypt Diary: Accident After school today, I was getting a ride back to my apartment in Makkatom. The driver was winding his way through the normally busy, but flowing streets, when we suddenly came to a traffic jam. It was difficult to see ahead as to what was causing the jam but eventually we inched to a spot where we could see a significant accident. A small car was severely damaged on both sides, resting on only two wheels, stuck to the front of a large cargo truck. The truck had obviously smashed into this small car which had then smashed into other cars. Now it hung off of the front of the truck by only a bit of metal, like an elephant had pierced its metal skin with a single tusk and kept it hanging there. My driver, and Egyptian named Gamal who is a driver for the school (not a taxi driver), asked me excitedly if I would like to go see the accident. I was a little surprised, not having done such a thing before, but I could tell that he really wanted to go look and that it was culturally acceptable. He parked the car quickly on the side of the road and we went to look. There was a crowd of people swarming around where the accident occurred. The first thing I saw was a little girl, sitting up on the edge of a parked car, who was badly scraped and several men were putting water on her cuts to clean the wounds. There were several bottles of water sitting around her that people had gladly donated, much more than needed. The little girl was very scared and several men were shouting and all trying to help her at once…something that would frighten anyone. The mother was badly shaken, talking on a cell phone, while throngs of people were all shouting and surrounding her. Everyone was looking and acting upset, crawling around in every direction like a swarm of ants that had been disturbed. One might think that they each had personally experienced the accident. An Egyptian young man came up to me and starting speaking Arabic in a rushed manner, probably asking me what happened; when I gave the signal that I didn't understand what he was saying, he quickly went to another person to ask what happened. I am sure that this man was not involved at all, but he as taking it all very personally. The accident had occurred some fifteen minutes before we arrived; we were there for maybe five or ten minutes, and still there was no sign of police or ambulance. I asked Gamal about this and he told me that police will come maybe half an hour to an hour after an accident is reported. The experience reminded me of the photos and live video footage I have seen in Middle Eastern locations where there are crowds of people protesting something or mourning the death of a suicide bomber or victim of an Israeli attack, etc. I always wondered what it would be like to be in a crowd like that. Now I know. In the hysteria I wasn't as much a foreigner as just one of the mass. It was a surreal experience. I reflect on this incident as a reminder of how tragedy and suffering help to define a culture. People are people, but many of the differences in cultures develop due to differences in meeting the sufferings inherent to life; or at least I think so. 24950 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: touch : To TG hello all, if i'm going to be honest, the suttas are great, yes, but i also find them to be just plain text. books, books, books, to many, to many. what if we could do it this way, practice, practice, practice, experience, experience. now we will get major results! /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear TG, Elias, and all > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the > Sutta Pitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading > the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were > speaking. ------ > > ---- I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real > things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally > philosophically oriented. ---- > > ----- Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, > but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to > understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the > Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.)" > > TG, your above observations are very insightful. > > More than two decades before in Myanmar, I have had a very bizarre > idea - after reading "Systems Of Buddhistic Thoughts" By S. Yamakami. > This book wrote about how a later Mahayana sect was better than or > more advanced than a previous one. > > The bizarre idea I had was that I could generate many Mahayana sects > by selecting some Suttas from the Pali Sutta Pi.taka. All I needed to > do was to interpret some statements in those Suttas in absolute terms > or interpret them out of context by basing on personal opinions > alone - that is to say, without consulting the elucidations given in > the standard commentaries. And I could even give them names after the > selected Suttas. It is very easy to do, really. :-) > > There you have it! > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Elias > > First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight > in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as > it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop > wisdom, > wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns > away" from > samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta > Pitaka. > > Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that > difficulty might > be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to > come from > mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized > manner. > > Regarding this question: > >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > >>so how come the touch is possible? > > 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are > conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is > nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., > emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing > things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, > chairs, > bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the > mind needs to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously > changing > due to the interaction. > > 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. > > 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with > cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. > > 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of > the > energy flow. > > 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect > each > other. > > From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the > SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading > the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were > speaking. > > I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real > things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally > philosophically oriented. > > Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but > after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to > understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the > Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) > > TG 24951 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:13am Subject: susan, welcome very welcome. the first noble truth has to be understood, and the second noble truth has to be abandoned. /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my own. > > Susan > > > > 24952 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:33am Subject: Re: Welcome and new series hello rob, in the powerpoint presentation (abhidhamma), why do you have the text 'purify the mind' related to the heart organ?? /elias rob wrote to susan: > Welcome to DSG! > > Sarah and Jon are the moderators and they live in Hong Kong. I am > traveling on business to Hong Kong and have just returned from a > delightful three hour dhamma-filled discussion with them in a hotel > lobby. One of the topics that we discussed tonight is the number of > new members on DSG. > > Some time ago, I prepared a scripted PowerPoint presentation > called "Introduction to the Abhidhamma" (available as a PowerPoint > or as a .PDF in the files section of DSG). Sarah and Jon encouraged > me to post one slide at a time from this presentation for group > discussion every few days. I had started this some time ago and was > about half way through when my work required me to take a break from > DSG. > > Given the number of new members, I have decided to start again at > the beginning. I apologize to the older members who have already > read this material - perhaps it will trigger a new line of > discussion. > > Susan, I hope that you and the other new members will add your > comments / questions. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24953 From: susan macqueen Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Elias........thank you for your warm welcome. At the moment I am reading Buddhism - plain and simple to give me an overall idea of the teachings, I'm very much enjoying the book and can resonate with quite a lot of what this author is saying. After I have read this book I will be reading Four Noble Truths that was written by Venerable Ajahn Sumedho and I will keep in mind what you said in your email. Thank you Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elias" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 4:13 PM Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > susan, > > welcome very welcome. > > the first noble truth has to be understood, > and the second noble truth has to be abandoned. > > /elias > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say > hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about > it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to > incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and > listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my > own. > > > > Susan 24954 From: susan macqueen Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcome and new series Rob, Thank you also for your warm welcome. When I have more understanding in what I am reading I am sure my questioning mind will get to work. In the literature I have read so far which is minimal as I am just beginning, I actually have not come across the word Abhidhamma, however I will be looking out for the files you mentioned in your email. Thanks Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:07 PM Subject: [dsg] Welcome and new series > Hi Susan, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" > wrote: > > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say > hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit > about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and > trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and > listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my > own. > > Welcome to DSG! > > Sarah and Jon are the moderators and they live in Hong Kong. I am > traveling on business to Hong Kong and have just returned from a > delightful three hour dhamma-filled discussion with them in a hotel > lobby. One of the topics that we discussed tonight is the number of > new members on DSG. > > Some time ago, I prepared a scripted PowerPoint presentation > called "Introduction to the Abhidhamma" (available as a PowerPoint > or as a .PDF in the files section of DSG). Sarah and Jon encouraged > me to post one slide at a time from this presentation for group > discussion every few days. I had started this some time ago and was > about half way through when my work required me to take a break from > DSG. > > Given the number of new members, I have decided to start again at > the beginning. I apologize to the older members who have already > read this material - perhaps it will trigger a new line of > discussion. > > Susan, I hope that you and the other new members will add your > comments / questions. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24955 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:12am Subject: the flowing river All, I'm writing this in `Word' using an automatic correction spelling. I'm not good to write English (even worse on speaking it)… but I can read, this means I can read all he fantastic texts about the dhamma. So this time I would want to write a little about the `world today'. I will simply try to describe how the `manussa' (human beings) have made the society and environment out from desire, And is daily interacted with desire and ignorance, and will therefore be reborn and not complaining. The major problem of all manussa is it cannot understand the first noble truth, therefore the second noble truth cannot be understood, the third one is a laugh, and the four is nonsense. It's the ironic of life, desire is not suffering, it's the cause of suffering, it's a major difference. If desire were suffering we wouldn't ex. crave for material pleasure, would we? If we investigate on the society of the -modern world- it seems its born and is alive because desire, television, media, music, all of these products are bought because desire. We want them so strongly we are willing to get reborn to enjoy them again. This is the major misunderstanding, if the first noble truth cannot be understood there seems nothing wrong to get reborn. I often use the simile of the buoyant river, As we all were uncontrolled and just flowing in a circular river, just flowing there, around and around in the river. Suddenly on stands up in the river `what's going on? Why am I in this river? What is this river? … where am I?". It's common people that thes who do stand up falls in again and going for another billions of rides. But some, never rides the river again. /Elias 24956 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch : To TG Hi, Elias - In a message dated 9/4/03 11:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes: > hello all, > if i'm going to be honest, the suttas are great, yes, > but i also find them to be just plain text. > > books, books, books, to many, to many. > what if we could do it this way, > practice, practice, practice, experience, experience. > > now we will get major results! > /elias > > ======================= Had you never seen any books on the Dhamma nor learned Dhamma from someone whose knowledge utimately originated in the record of the Buddha's teachings, and, assuming that you are not, yourself, a paccekabodhisatta or bodhisatta, exactly what would you practice? It is certainly true that one will not get filled by reading the menu, but without a menu, there is no way to know what to order! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24957 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: emptiness. Dear T.G. Yes, su~n~natta is used in the suttas as empty of the self, anatta. Completely in accordance with the Tipitaka and comy. You explain this very well. Only the word energy: here science may cause confusion. A different angle. Nina. op 03-09-2003 23:26 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, > bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs > to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing > due to the interaction. > > 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. 24958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, dhammas for investigation. Dear Elias, op 03-09-2003 19:59 schreef Elias op crystalmelodyhaven@y...: > > the four elements is just a > way of desribing but not fully investigate. N: This is completely Theravada tradition: based on the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries. There are four paramattha dhammas: citta cetasika rupa nibbana. Citta, cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) and rupa are conditioned dhammas: they arise and fall away. Their characteristics are described in the teachings. They have characteristics which cannot be altered. Heat, a rupa element, is always heat, this characteristic cannot be altered. It can be directly experienced when it appears. It appears through the bodysense. Heat is rupa, it does not know anything. Bodysense is rupa it does not know anything. They can be conditions for citta which experiences. It is panna which can fully investigate the characteristics of realities, but this is a gradual development. Then we can learn that realities, dhammas, are not abstract notions. The aim is not stillness, but understanding which can eradicate wrong view and all defilements. When you speak about wood, atoms, these are different notions of science, they are a subject altogether different from paramattha dhammas. Thus, when you say, , yes, they are described so that we can ponder over them, consider them and investigate them in our daily lives. It is a new subject to you, and thus, what you read here may seem confusing to you. Keep on asking, Nina. 24959 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa Dear Icaro, Remember, rupa is avyaakata!!! Avyaakata is neither kusala nor akusala. Rupa cannot do good or bad deeds, it is not mental. It has no intention. It does not know anything, it could not be a component of citta. They are separate dhammas. Dsgn fourth book, in English the no. are different. What is the Pali name of the section and text? Rupa is always rupa, no matter it is cognized by citta or not. Visible object is seen by citta, and then it does not change into a mental reality. It does not know that it is seen, it has no like or dislike. When you speak of a mental image of what is seen, it is not the rupa which is visible object, but it is an idea formed on account of (conditioned by) the visible object which was seen before. Rupa is not vitakka, which is a cetasika. Larry just brought up from the Vis.: naamaruupavavatthaana: defining of nama and rupa, first stage of insight. Panna has to know that they have different characteristics and are quite distinct from each other. If we do not see this intellectually first, it is an impediment to insight. op 03-09-2003 20:22 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: About this question about Rupa and four elements, I > could humbly add that the Dhammasangani explains Rupa > as a COMPLETE Dhamma by itself (last stanza of the > Dsg fourth book) - so you can?t deny it as a profound > component of mind: citta. > The four elements sound as a shallow description fo > reality...but consider them as Kusala dhammas or > Vittakas due to good Kamma accumulations 24960 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, dhammas for investigation. Hi, Nina - You wrote to Elias: > The aim is not stillness, but > understanding which can eradicate wrong view and all defilements. > =========================== Just one comment, which I *think* may be more in the way of a clarification than a disagreement: If by "stillness" you mean calm in the sense of samatha, I agree - it is a useful means, an important contributing factor, but not the ultimate aim. But there is, as I see it, another sense in which the ultimate aim *is* stillness, namely that total disinclination towards being disturbed, that complete absence of dukkha, which is nibbana, wherein there is neither coming nor going, neither arising nor ceasing - complete nonproliferation ... absolute peace. And insight-understanding is the direct portal to this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24961 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa Dear Nina: Nina:" Dear Icaro, > Remember, rupa is avyaakata!!! > Avyaakata is neither kusala nor akusala. Rupa cannot > do good or bad deeds, > it is not mental. It has no intention. It does not > know anything, it could > not be a component of citta. They are separate > dhammas. > Dsgn fourth book, in English the no. are different. > What is the Pali name of > the section and text?" ---------------------------------------------------- Dhammasangani, fourth book - Atthakathakhandam, last stanka: "1616. Katame dhamma arana? Cattusu bhumisu kusalam, cattusu bhumisu vipako, tisu bhumisu kiriyabyakatam, RUPAÑCA, nibbanañca– ime dhamma arana." I´ve translated Dhamma Aranaa as "Complete and Full Dhamma", but could it be also "Object of Dhamma"? Rupañca is dhamma aranaa. Corrections are welcome indeed! Mettaya, Ícaro ------------------------------------------------------- > Rupa is always rupa, no matter it is cognized by > citta or not. Visible > object is seen by citta, and then it does not change > into a mental reality. > It does not know that it is seen, it has no like or > dislike. When you speak > of a mental image of what is seen, it is not the > rupa which is visible > object, but it is an idea formed on account of > (conditioned by) the visible > object which was seen before. Rupa is not vitakka, > which is a cetasika. (snip) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24962 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: emptiness. Hi Nina The way I see "energy" is primarily through the cause and effect Dependent Origination model:-- "This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises, etc. That combined with observation of experiences and surroundings... and yes some of the science background I have as well. I use these things and test them in my mind to see if they "work" in reality. Experiences are real things, but the models that may help explain those experiences are just models. Whether its a scientific model or abhidhamma model of 17 consciousness processes, these are just models. If someone penetrates them with absolute direct knowledge, that's another matter. But to the rest of us they're models. The more a model can assist in overcoming suffering, the more valuable it is. From a Buddhist point of view, the models all have to be overcome. They help show us the futility of grasping after "energies" that are continually altering, afflicting, not self...including the energies associated with the models. So it doesn't matter to me whether its science, abhidhamma, sutta, mahayana, or whatever. Its just matters that model works. To me, the best model is the Sutta Pitaka. But to make it work, I have to make it work in my mind, and I have to make it make sense in the world I know. If the Buddha was teaching today, I suspect his teaching would have more analogies to science and less to carts, stray cows, etc. ;) Anyway, I'm sure you know all these things but I wanted to show you the way I approach it. Thanks. TG In a message dated 9/4/2003 10:13:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear T.G. > Yes, su~n~natta is used in the suttas as empty of the self, anatta. > Completely in accordance with the Tipitaka and comy. You explain this very > well. > Only the word energy: here science may cause confusion. A different angle. > Nina. > op 03-09-2003 23:26 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > >Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned > >by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing > >there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. > >Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things > >incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, > >bodies, > >etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind > needs > >to > >learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously > changing > >due to the interaction. > > > >2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. > 24963 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: touch Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > anatta seems to be the important parts in these answers, I view all three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) as being equally important. It is said that completely understanding one of these three will allow one to understand the other two. I would say that anatta is the toughest of the three to approach; probably because, at first, it seems to be counter-intuitive. > anatta means no-self, but go the other direction to no-self, > that would be many-self, infinite-selfs. and this cannot be, > because an object can't exist by itself, if it's not builded by other > objects, the main object cannot exist. So as you mentioned "wife". > that would be human, a human form is builded up with organs, blood, > hair etc. and these parts (blood, hair etc.) is builded up by cells, > atoms etc. and these parts (atoms, cells) have to be builded up by > other objects, smaller objects, or else they couldn't exist. > > ok, so it's anatta, no-self. now let's se how the object do exist, > if it cannot be a 'self'. in that wa it has to be builded up by other > objects, and they to is not a 'self'. > > you mentioned atoms etc, these things cannot just exist by nothing, > they have to be builded up by minor objects to exist. > > as for the four elements, it is a good way to describe things, > but what is the elements builded of? According to the Abhidhamma, the ultimate elements of reality (paramattha dhammas) are: - Cita (consciousness): 89 or 121 types, depending on how you count - Cetasika (mental factors): 52 types - Rupa (matter): 28 types - Nibbana (an object of consciousness) Citta, cetasika and rupa exist only for a moment. Cetasikas arise together with and fall away with their associated citta. The falling away of a citta is one of the conditions for the arising of the next citta; cittas appear sequentially. Elias, you seem interested in rupa. Frankly, the Buddha did not put much focus on analyzing rupa. When rupa is mentioned in the Suttas, it is almost always as an input to the senses or as a base supporting the mind. The commentaries analyze rupa further, but the focus does not stray far from the purpose of the Buddha's teachings. There are four things that can condition the arising of rupa: - Kamma - Citta - Temperature - Nutrition Elias, if you would like to study this subject further, I suggest that you download Nina's book, Rupas, from the eBooks section of: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Alternatively, you could download my Class Notes (I teach beginners' Abhidhamma) from the files section of DSG and review pages 155-166 (a summary of Nina's book). Metta, Rob M :-) 24964 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > > > > > > We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > > experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > > of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > > explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > > important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > > Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > > a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > > > > Comments? > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > Hi Rob M., > > I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri > Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...I bet you will guess > right on the first try though! ;-) > > Metta, James > p.s. Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! > Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda is the Chief Theravada monk for Malaysia / Singapore. I meet with him frequently and from my experience, he is a very humble monk. Though Chief Reverend clearly respects the Abhidhamma, he never references it during his Dhamma Talks. His talks are very down to earth. Nevertheless, I see you point of view, James. If this were the only contact one had with Chief Reverend, I could understand how one could come away with an impression of conceit. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: It seems as though you are enjoying your time in Egypt. I appreciated your recent write-up on witnessing the accident. I travel every week, yet never tire of observing the subtle nuances of different cultures. It is fascinating. 24965 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > >We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > > >experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > > >of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > > >explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > > >important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > > >Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > > >a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > I happen to think that viewing knowledge of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as > essential is a view that goes too far. Specifically, I think the statement " > ... the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as > Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood > without a knowledge of Abhidhamma" is simply false. This is provable, I > believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who achieved stream entry > by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing instructions. He was surely not versed > in Abhidhamma. But to write off the Abhidhamma and the commentaries > completely, and especially to do so without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also > be considered as going "too far". I agree with you that one does not need to study Abhidhamma to achieve enlightenment. I would paraphrase what Chief Reverend wrote as, "If you want to teach the Dhamma and truly understand the technical terms of Dhamma, kamma, etc., then you need to understand Abhidhamma." With this interpretation of what he wrote, I agree with him. Metta, Rob M :-) 24966 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:54pm Subject: Re: Welcome and new series Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > hello rob, > in the powerpoint presentation (abhidhamma), > why do you have the text > 'purify the mind' related to the heart organ?? > /elias Excellent question! The bottom part of this diagram (legs and lower body) showed the foundation while the middle part (arms and upper body) shows the practice. The three aspects of the practice are: - Dana (generosity) - Sila (self-discipline) - Bhavana (meditation) On the diagram, I put Dana as the right arm because, in Asia, people give things with their right hands. I put Sila as the left hand because when we meditate, we place the left hand (normally the weaker hand) over the right hand (normally the stronger hand). I put Bhavana in the centre, over the heart, as it is a purely internal activity. I also put Bhavana in the centre as I feel it is the heart of the practice. I then took a very commonly repeated verse from the Dhammapada, "Avoid Evil, Do Good, Purify the Mind, This is the teaching of the Buddhas." and drew a parallel to the three aspects of the practice: - Avoid Evil --> Sila - Do Good --> Dana - Purify the Mind --> Bhavana This is why the text "purfify the mind" appears over the symbol of the heart. In addition, the physical support for the mind in Abhidhamma is called the "heart-base" (not the brain). I recently posted some details on the heart-base in message 24898. Hope this clarifies. Metta, Rob M :-) 24967 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcome and new series Hi Susan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" wrote: > Thank you also for your warm welcome. When I have more understanding in > what I am reading I am sure my questioning mind will get to work. In the > literature I have read so far which is minimal as I am just beginning, I > actually have not come across the word Abhidhamma, however I will be looking > out for the files you mentioned in your email. My advice is to wait a bit before tackling the Abhidhamma. Perhaps the best introductory book that I have found is Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life". You can download it from the eBooks section of: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Rob M :-) 24968 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The physical bases. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > Thank you for your post. Very appropriate that you quoted the Singsapa > suttaJust a remark about the eyebase. > op 02-09-2003 23:56 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated > > cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, > > life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. > > Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the > > eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? > > Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the > > biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. > N: That point in the eye is extremely tiny, but it is rupa. This is > explained by the Dhammasangani, the Patthana, the Co to the Dsg, > Atthasalini. I think we should not deny this. See Expositor II, p. 403: the > eye of the flesh is towfold: the compound organ and the sentient organ. The > sentient organ (eyesense) is situated in and bound to it. than the head of a louse>. > It makes sense to me that rupa supports nama. We can also read this in the > Patthana. It is very clear. Eyebase is a condition different from earbase. > Where else would these rupas be but somewhere in the eye or the ear? Of > course we cannot touch them or see them, and they fall away immediately > after they have arisen. Kamma keeps on producing them throughout life. > Nina. > P.S. Were you in Hong Kong and how were your discussions with Sarah and Jon? Thanks for the correction. I know that the eye-base is rupa. I was trying to stress that we should not try and draw a one to one parallel between eye-base and a biological component of the eye such as retina, optic nerve, etc.. My point is that the eye-base rupa is the base for a consciousness which includes mental factors of contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, life-faculty and attention. The biologist does not associate this consciousness and these mental factors as arising at the back of the eye. PS: Had three delightful dhamma-filled hours (plus some idle chatter) with Sarah and Jon last night. Metta, Rob M :-) 24969 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Jim: "I just need to know whether the group wishes to carry on from XIV.33 or go directly to the last chapter on the benefits of developing understanding (as I had suggested earlier) and then go back and carry on from XIV.33 with the detailed analysis of the aggregates." Hi Jim, I vote for keeping the order and not jumping ahead. Larry 24970 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/4/03 6:39:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > I agree with you that one does not need to study Abhidhamma to > achieve enlightenment. I would paraphrase what Chief Reverend wrote > as, "If you want to teach the Dhamma and truly understand the > technical terms of Dhamma, kamma, etc., then you need to understand > Abhidhamma." With this interpretation of what he wrote, I agree with > him. > ========================= I would agree with that for the most part. However, if one is a high ariyan or if one has studied the sutta pitaka to the extent of having culled from it the mass of material that is laid out in Abhidhamma (which would be one heck of a study of the suttas!), then one still could be a superb Dhamma teacher. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24971 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 the Khandhas Dear Larry and Elias, Thank you Larry, very useful to have all the material here. Elias, this is a lot to digest, but if you take it part by part very slowly, I think it can be very useful to you. Nina. P.s. Larry, I notice that in The Vis there is, in the next paras, reference to the Vibhanga too, and you may not have the Vibhanga, Book of Analysis? Then I shall help, adding a note. op 04-09-2003 08:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": > > "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether past, present or > future, 24972 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] books Dear Sarah, op 04-09-2003 06:49 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Nina, you mentioned ordering B.Bodhi translations from Sri Lanka. So many > of our orders have gone astray. When possible, we order now from Pariyatti > which is very fast and efficient. You just need to give a credit card no., > I think. You don’t need to live in the States. N: This is a dangerous thing to do. The PTS just needs the last numbers of the whole which is safer. But best of all, When I am in Bgk. going to the Mahamakut Bookshop. Sri Lanka is too complicated for us to order from, both ordering and paying. Nina. 24973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Pali. Dear James, Thanks for your lively description. But it was nice many people tried to help the girl. On our Pali list there was a new member, a professor at the American University in Cairo, doing Buddhist studies. I thought of you, but second thoughts arose: guess what, he is a Pali scholar, doing a study of twelfth century Pali text. So I did not keep his address for you. Or you may end up learning Pali in Egypt!!! I have to laugh, because you always find to say a little something about Pali. Nina. op 04-09-2003 17:05 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I reflect on this incident as a reminder of how tragedy and suffering > help to define a culture. People are people, but many of the > differences in cultures develop due to differences in meeting the > sufferings inherent to life; or at least I think so. 24974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Jim, Thank you for offering to help. I shall just see what Larry wants to do. It ios not bad to copy. I make a separate doc with all the Velthuis letters and their equivalent funny signs, to keep. Then I just copy and paste this in any text, with replace all. Gradually I shall build up my own list of signs. I copied now the Rahuovaadasutta, and shall use this one together with my hard copy. I would not copy a whole book at a time, because the memory may collapse. Only parts and then save on diskette. With appreciation for all the help you have given, Nina. op 04-09-2003 14:27 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > It's wonderful to hear about your success! It's probably the best way > given that you have to do it on your Mac. .. Can you copy and paste a whole book (eg. > Vism Mahatika vol 2) from tipitaka.org? 24975 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Hi Howard, I am really glad about this! But in this thread you will read the Visuddhimagga gradually, and digest it. It can come naturally. Nina. op 04-09-2003 07:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It seems to me that the Vism needs a far more fair reading than I have > given it!! 24976 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards reification." Hi Howard, It occurred to me that a better translation for sa~n~na might be imagination, primarily in the sense of image making for the purpose of identification and understanding on a simple level. An image, aka sign (nimitta), is abstract and assumed to be unchanging, in other words a concept. As a basis of identity an image is the source of belief in the concept of self; although that belief (di.t.thi) goes beyond the phenomenon of the image. Hence there is a slight difference between identity (sa~n~na) and belief (di.t.thi) in an identity. I don't know where "unit-making" comes from but one could argue that a unit, or compact whole, is what an image is. For example, we can look at a table and look at a chair and see them as two; or we could look at a table and chair and see unity. Is that a matter of image making? One comment about the commentary below: notice that interdependence is not negated. Larry Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). 24977 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:43pm Subject: Bahiya3 - *KIO* - wrong idea of self Dear Kio, I hope you’re still looking in on the posts here. You gave some helpful comments to posts of Nina’s and referred to the Bahiya sutta. I’d like to pursue this a little further.I apologise for the delay. I’ll just repeat a short part of your discussion here: ***** >Nina: Therefore, it is our task to detect it when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect this. >Kio: Why do you convince yourself that this is 'very difficult'? Again, you carry more burden everytime you convince yourself that this is very difficult. I do not see any use of doing that at all. >Nina: As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even attachment. >Kio: Hope you are not studying to understand this. Again, this is the point of practice. As found in the case of Bahiya, there is no magic to it (for those who 'understand.'). It is just that discursive thoughts may get into the way. Adding more thoughts to this discursive thought is not what was explained by the Buddha to Bahir.< **** You also suggested: “we are here for investigation and practice of dhamma for our path, as you mentioned, we should all chip in ideas, and that is what I am trying here. If things get clarified, I believe that would be everyone's benefit.” With this in mind, let me suggest that while I agree that ‘in the case of Bahiya, there is no magic..’, I think we read over and over again about how very difficult and profound the teachings are and how they are only for the wise to fully comprehend. We read in th Bahiya sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and we may think that this is a relatively simple matter. In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a), we read in fact about how Bahiya had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious deeds. He had ‘gone forth’ under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva realms with ‘morality completely fulfilled’. In fact he had spent one entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka. Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses. Great Brahma tells him: “You now, though being no arahant, roam about wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant. You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views.” Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas, have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about self if they haven’t reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of being used to ‘wanting little, contentment and effacement’ for a long time and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and therefore not experiencing defilements ‘as a result of abandoning in the form of suppression’. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very dangerous. Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta, it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha knew “the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and equanimity reasert themselves.” In order for Bahiya to be able to hear and fully comprehend the teachings from the Buddha, so many different conditions had to be in place, including the final meeting and listening to the Buddha himself. The Buddha fully comprehended these conditions and knew the time was ripe for Bahiya and so entered Savatthi in order that Bahiya would find him. I agree with your comment, Kio, that there is no magic. However, I also agree with Nina’s comment that it is very difficult for panna to see the more subtle shades of clinging to an idea of self as Bahiya eventually realised. Look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== S: > I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana > commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The > on-line sutta can be found at: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html 24978 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Pali. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > Thanks for your lively description. But it was nice many people tried to > help the girl. James: Actually, it wasn't that nice really. So many men trying to help that little girl terrorized her. Especially in this culture, men are supposed to keep their distance from women/girls. These men were so whipped up into a frenzy that they forgot protocol. I knew better to keep my distance. > On our Pali list there was a new member, a professor at the American > University in Cairo, doing Buddhist studies. I thought of you, but second > thoughts arose: guess what, he is a Pali scholar, doing a study of twelfth > century Pali text. So I did not keep his address for you. Or you may end up > learning Pali in Egypt!!! James: I don't think you would have to worry about that. Nina, I have nothing against people doing Buddhist studies or being Pali scholars. I just consider the use of Pali, in a non-Pali setting, pretentious. > I have to laugh, because you always find to say a little something about > Pali. James: Oops...I did it again! ;-) > Nina. Metta, James 24979 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 11:20pm Subject: Bahiya4 - *Nina&Larry* - asavas Dear Nina & Larry, The description of the asavas (intoxicants/cankers) given here is found elsewhere, but I like this translation and find the frequent reminders about the similarity of clinging to sense-desires and liquor to be very helpful. In the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.htm We read that when Bahiya listened to the Buddha, he was ‘immediately liberated from the asavas’. Ud-a (the commentary) adds: “ ‘from the asavas (aasavehi), from the lusts for sense-desires and so on that have acquired the name ‘asavas’ on account of its being upto (aa) the summit of becoming (as to space or) upto (aa) change of lineage (as to mental states) that there is their flowing (savana), their proceeding, and on account of their similarity to spirituous liquor (aasava), such as (that made from) madira (fruit) and so on in the sense that they are of long fermentation. For it is whilst he [Bahira] still was hearing Dhamma from the Teacher that he cleansed the precepts, established vipassana based upon the concentration of mind thereby acquired, immediately brought all the asavas to destruction on account of his rapid superknowledge, and reached arahantship together with the discriminations.” In a post yesterday I also added this quote which I think helps us to appreciate the conditioned nature of phenomena and the importance of the development of detachment and comprehension of the non-controllability of these for the wise” >Ud-a we read: “For, in this connection, the sight-base is called ‘the seen’ (di.t.tha.m)in the sense that it is something that is to be beheld,(as is) eye-consciousness, together with the consciousness associated with the doors therefor, in the sense of seeing, both of these, occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise?...”< Metta, Sarah ====== S: > I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana > commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The > on-line sutta can be found at: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html 24980 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 0:02am Subject: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi Howard & Christine, >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going "too far".< .... You did mention this before and I’d be interested in a reference if you or someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I’m also thinking again of Christine’s question about intelligence and insight. Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so often the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, we read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower garments made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was an arahant until the visit of the Brahma. Without knowing the details in the commentary about how he had been a trader and ship-wrecked in that life or about the details of his previous lives in deva realms and meeting former Buddhas, one might easily have the idea that he was simple-minded in someway. His story is also an example of how easily we can mistrue the outer appearances. He refused offers of clothes and continued to live in seclusion (pa.tisalliinassa) because he wished to continue receiving ‘gains and respect’ on account of being perceived to be very worthy and to lead a faultless life by the local people. He became more and more self-deluded as a result. Yet, as we read later, he had the potential to become an arahant on the spot when he met the Buddha. Two theories are given about why Bahiya failed to immediately fine bowl and robe and so lack the prerequisites for ordination then and there. The first theory given in Ud-a (the commentary) suggests that during the time of the Buddha Kassapa he failed to’ sympathetically’ give bowl or robe to any monk, suggesting that they should acquire them by themselves. Another theory is that at a time when ‘the world was empty of a Buddha’, he shot a Paccekabuddha with an arrow out of greed for his bowl and robe. Knowing that the bowl and robe would not appear for Bahiya, the Buddha failed to givehim the customary ‘going forth’ with the words “Come, monk!” As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta that he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was able to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief words as I understand. Look forward to any comments, Metta, Sarah ==== 24981 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Christine, > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > You did mention this before and I'd be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. ___________ Dear Sarah, The story is in the Dhammapada atthakatha verse 25. The monk is Culapantaka and he couldn't memorize even a 4 line stanza of the Tipitaka because in the time of Kassapa Buddha he had mocked another Bhikkhu for being slow. He had enormous accumulations of insight though, and so the Buddha gave him the cloth to rub and seeing the dirt he attained vipassana and nibbana. He was an arahant with the 4 patisambhidha and had great powers. Someone of thse times might think they could equal his vast insight, but we can check now and see whether rubbing a cloth leads us to arahatship in a few minutes. In fact Culapantaka was either Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu, who do not need so many detaqils of the teaching. At this time these typs of being are said to be extinct and now we are either Neyya, who need many details and may attain if they understand and practice correctly, and padaparama who cannot attain in this life, but may attain in future lives. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani says: "Those among the different groups who are slow in understanding as regards mentality can understand realities as explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality is classified by way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. Those who are slow in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa) can understand realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five senses and the five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are åyatanas. As to dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus in this classification rúpa has been explained more extensively. Those who are slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can understand realities as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in this classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained in detail." Which type are we: slow in understanding nama, slow in understanding rupa or slow in both? RobertK 24982 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:49am Subject: Bahiya6 - *RobM* - kamma Dear Nina, RobM (& Christine, Jim, RobK), As RobM said, we had a most enjoyable early evening dhamma and dhamma-related discussion. Time went very fast. As usual, we were so impressed by all the examples of RobM’s kindnesses - he seldom misses an opportunity to help others, especially with regard to sharing the Dhamma in many different ways. He even told us a story about a minor car accident recently (whilst on a trip to buy padded envelopes to send the CDs To Chris and others). He and the other car driver worked out an amicable arrangement after the accident and he gave her one of the metta CDs on the spot. I’m sure his many acts of kindness will bring many good results and meanwhile are accumulating at a rapid rate as far as I can tell;-) Why did the cow with a calf collide and thus kill Bahiya? As we know, nothing happens by accident. According to the commentary, it was on account of ‘resentment acquired in a former existence’ which ‘gave rise to thoughts of revenge simply at the mere sight of him’, leading the cow to strike him with her horn and kill him. We no longer have discussions with Rob about anatta and free-will as I think we’re mostly in agreement these days;-). Kamma, kamma-patha and punna-kiriya-vatthu are now more problematic and difficult areas for us to resolve. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kamma_patha.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm The question is whether all or which moments of kamma (cetana cetasika) can be said to bring results. Rob finds the suggestion that only kusala and akusala kamma-patha bring results to be somewhat far-fetched, illogical and as yet unconvincing from the references provided. I also agree with him that the scope would seem to be rather narrow. For example, how would generosity be included? If punna-kiriya-vatthu (bases of meritorious action) are included, then acts of generosity and other wholesome deeds are covered. Rob, you asked at one stage what Nina has to say and this is one post she wrote to you on this question: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18349.html In this post I gave the following quote, but I’m not sure whether refers to kusala kamma-patha or to punna-kiriya-vatthu.Maybe Nina can add more. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16003.html Sammohavinodani, comm to Dhammasangani, PTS trnsl, Class. of the Structureof Conditions 681: “Firstly, with the formation of merit of the sense sphere as condition(there arise) the sixteen (kinds of resultant consciousness, namely,)the five profitable resultant beginning with eye-consciousness, and in respect of mind consciousness, one kind of mind element and two kinds of mind-consciousness element, and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant;accordingly as it is said: “Due to profitable kamma of the sense-sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness arises’ (Dhs431........” So what is meant by ‘the formation of merit’ here? 645: “Herein, because “it purifies (p.naati) the one who performs it, and it perfects (puureti) his inclination, and it produces an honourable (pujja)state”, it is merit (pu~n~na). Because “it forms result and the kind of materiality due to kamma performed”,(cf Vis 538)it is “formation”(abhisa”nkhara)....” ***** Nina, I’m not sure if you can help furthe. I think Rob finds it very limited or like a sudden cut-off to say only kamma-patha brings results and other moments of kamma (cetana) do not even act in this way even in a very mild form. I mentioned in another post than when I raised the topic with K.Sujin she mentioned that this is why there are different conditions such as upanissaya and kamma. Also the 3 rounds. However, I’m just parrotting and not able to help much if at all. It would be helpful to find some very specific references and it occurred to us that Christine, as ‘foremost in web-tracking’ might be able to help too. Jim,RobK or others may also have suggestions. With metta, Sarah p.s Jim, RobM mentioned in passing that his father has a cottage which seems to be very close to where you are in Ontario... I hope you have a chance to meet him one day too. ======================================================= 24983 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:36am Subject: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living Hi Nori (& Mike), I'm just a little concerned that my comments may have been too blunt or even flippant sounding. I’ll just add a little more on a rather more conventional line if I can: --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori, > > What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri > > Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off > > alms with a small backpack and tent (moving from place to place; as > > opposed to a monastery)? > > > > Would it be any more conducive to the ending of dukkha (than living > > as a householder in a busy city with a job with long hours) ? > ..... I just want to add that if you feel inclined to spend time travelling or living in a Thera-Buddhist country such as Sri Lanka, I’m sure you can manage to do so very inexpensively. I don’t think you would receive any support outside a temple, however, and I think this would be generally frowned upon by the local residents who are mostly very poor themselves but seldom ask for any help or beg. It would simply be rather incomprehensible to most I think. Really, though, one can live on very little in the countryside, I’m sure or else in temples as a visitor perhaps. Perhaps you might also consider a holiday to Asia in the first place, to join some of us for discussions or on a trip. You’d be most welcome. Pls let us know more about why you consider such a lifestyle as more ‘conducive to ending of dukkha’. ..... As I’m quoting from the Bahiya sutta and commentary to everyone, let me find a piece for you as well;-). When Bahiya was living simply in seclusion in the forest, content with little, praised and respected but under the delusion of attainments, Brahma said to him: “ ‘...nor is this practice of yours one by which you could become an arahant or one who has attained the arahant-path’(saa pi te pa.tipadaa n’atthiyaaya tva.m arahaa vaa assa arahattamagga.m vaa samaapanno):whereas in this way he rejects even the status of the virtuous puthujjana for him. Herein: ‘practice’ (pa.tipadaa): the six purifications beginning with the purification of morality and so on, it being a ‘practice’ (pa.tipadaa) since it is by this means that one comes to practise (pa.tipajjati) the ariyan paths.” ..... After Bahiya has passed into parinibbana, the Buddha mentions that Bahiya was one who did not ‘vex’ him ‘on the basis of Dhamma’, on account of ‘having practised as instructed’. Obviously the ‘practice as instructed’ does not refer to going to any place but to fully comprehending the nature of realities as anatta on the spot. .... Whichever way I approach these questions, it always comes back to the importance of ‘straightening of one’s views’ (ditthujukamma). Without the development of right understanding there won’t be any knowing of when there is kusala that is to be developed and when there is akusala that is to be abandoned or what the truth is at this moment. Without the great compassion and assistance of Brahma and the Buddha, Bahiya might still be wandering around in samsara, following wrong practices and blinded by conceit and ignorance too. Comments most welcome, Metta, Sarah ====== http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html 24984 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi RobertK, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > The story is in the Dhammapada atthakatha verse 25. ..... Excellent! Thanks for all the extra details too. I think it's time for a complete re-reading of the Dhp attakatha for me.... Metta, Sarah p.s RobM was just saying how much he appreciated your posts, so good to see this one;-) ===== 24985 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hello Sarah and All, Over the last couple of days, I've been thinking about kamma a lot. At first, kamma sounds a neat explanation for the puzzling things that happen to people. But is this just blind faith in something that can't be proven, anymore than the existence or otherwise of gods or demons controlling things can't be proven or disproven. As an explanation of things as they really are, it seems like something a child might conclude: "this awful thing happened because I must have been bad and deserve it, even though no- one can tell me what it was I did". Today, the idea of kamma seems too pat an explanation. All these stories of far away and long ago (like Bahiya) sound romantic and have a certain attraction. But perhaps they are only morality tales, teaching parables, and can't be accepted as an explanation for the ugliness of real life. Yesterday, here, a four month old, an eighteen month old, and a five year old were stabbed to death by their father, an eleven month old still clings to life. A young injured mother watched most of her children, plus one baby she was minding, being killed - unable to defend them. This is what can happen, out of the blue, to ordinary people. Naturally one wants to say there is a reason (the kamma they committed coming home to roost). Because, if there is a reason for it happening to the little ones, then maybe it won't happen to me ... or to my children. Maybe belief in kamma/vipaka is a security blanket that we cling to, as it's a little more intellectual-sounding than theism - it keeps away the fear that maybe chaos really reigns supreme. Kamma doesn't seem to have a point, there is no verifiable balance sheet, no kamma- cupboard where it's stored while awaiting consequences - it doesn't teach any lessons because no-one remembers their alleged past lives, and justice is not seen to be done. Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Christine, > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > You did mention this before and I'd be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I'm also > thinking again of Christine's question about intelligence and insight. > > Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so often > the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, we > read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower garments > made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was > well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was an > arahant until the visit of the Brahma. > > Without knowing the details in the commentary about how he had been a > trader and ship-wrecked in that life or about the details of his previous > lives in deva realms and meeting former Buddhas, one might easily have the > idea that he was simple-minded in someway. > > His story is also an example of how easily we can mistrue the outer > appearances. He refused offers of clothes and continued to live in > seclusion (pa.tisalliinassa) because he wished to continue receiving > `gains and respect' on account of being perceived to be very worthy and to > lead a faultless life by the local people. He became more and more > self-deluded as a result. > > Yet, as we read later, he had the potential to become an arahant on the > spot when he met the Buddha. > > Two theories are given about why Bahiya failed to immediately fine bowl > and robe and so lack the prerequisites for ordination then and there. > > The first theory given in Ud-a (the commentary) suggests that during the > time of the Buddha Kassapa he failed to' sympathetically' give bowl or > robe to any monk, suggesting that they should acquire them by themselves. > Another theory is that at a time when `the world was empty of a Buddha', > he shot a Paccekabuddha with an arrow out of greed for his bowl and robe. > > Knowing that the bowl and robe would not appear for Bahiya, the Buddha > failed to givehim the customary `going forth' with the words "Come, monk!" > > As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to > 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis > (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta that > he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously > accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was able > to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief > words as I understand. > > Look forward to any comments, > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== 24986 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Dear RobM, James and Howard, You wrote: RobM: In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma. James: I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. Howard: I think one doesn't have to look far to spot tones of conceit in *each* of us. I think that when we are very, very sure about a matter that we don't truly know first hand - which applies to almost every opinion on almost everything that almost everyone of has - conceit is there. We're all filled with opinions, and we all think we are "right". I'm engaged in that at this very moment! (Of course, there *are* degrees to things.) In the Ariyapariyesana Sutta, Buddha compared our realm to a lotus pond. We are all at different places, depths and stages in that pond. It is surely incorrect to hold that the Buddhadhamma is a "one size fits all" phenomenon. This, I think, is illustrated in the Mahagosinga Sutta. This sutta relates a conversation in the Gosinga sala-tree wood between 6 senior and accomplished bhikkhus. They posed the question "what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate the Gosinga sala- tree wood?" Not surprisingly, each answered with a description of a bhikkhu matching their own accomplishments. Ananda described a good learner. Revata described a good solitary meditator. Anuruddha described a bhikkhu with the divine eye. Kassapa described a 'fewness of wishes' forest dweller. Moggallana described a bhikkhu good at discussing the higher Dhamma. Sariputta described one in control of his own mind. They then went to the Buddha and told him everything that had happened and asked him who had spoken well. THE BUDDHA ANSWERED THAT THEY HAD ALL SPOKEN WELL. Surely he would not have so answered if you can only attain Nibbana by meditating or by studying or whatever? My conclusion: it's not wholesome to get uptight [experience dosa?] when people claim to be practising the Middle Way in a manner that does not match your own preferences. I am not stating that anyone in this thread has actually got uptight in this manner. Indeed, how would I know ... and that's exactly my point. I'm in the lotus pond. Don't ask me whether it's the sunny end or the muddy end - whichever way I answer, there will be some conceit (mana) in my reply. Better that I focus on where I am at without seeing if it's higher or lower than the others around me. Hope that makes sense to you. Andrew 24987 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Hi Larry, Okay, that's fine with me. I'll go with your vote unless directed to do otherwise. Jim > Jim: "I just need to know whether the group wishes to carry on from > XIV.33 or go directly to the last chapter on the benefits of developing > understanding (as I had suggested earlier) and then go back and carry on > from XIV.33 with the detailed analysis of the aggregates." > > Hi Jim, > > I vote for keeping the order and not jumping ahead. > > Larry 24988 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/5/03 1:05:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making > function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards > reification." > > Hi Howard, > > It occurred to me that a better translation for sa~n~na might be > imagination, primarily in the sense of image making for the purpose of > identification and understanding on a simple level. An image, aka sign > (nimitta), is abstract and assumed to be unchanging, in other words a > concept. As a basis of identity an image is the source of belief in the > concept of self; although that belief (di.t.thi) goes beyond the > phenomenon of the image. Hence there is a slight difference between > identity (sa~n~na) and belief (di.t.thi) in an identity. > > I don't know where "unit-making" comes from but one could argue that a > unit, or compact whole, is what an image is. For example, we can look at > a table and look at a chair and see them as two; or we could look at a > table and chair and see unity. Is that a matter of image making? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I think there is real virtue to your analysis. Image making (or sign making) is the key. Very good. ------------------------------------------------ > > One comment about the commentary below: notice that interdependence is > not negated. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I did, indeed, notice that. I noticed talk of the activity of grouping of "states" as unities, taking them as unitary objects which, when seen rightly, disintegrate like froth, and I noticed the "mere" states, themselves, talked of as being conditioned and void. This all got through to me, and it is largely what is encouraging me to look far more carefully at the Vism. Now I just have to go slowly with it, patiently, and resist putting it away when I come across parts that are not so pleasing to me! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > > Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means > that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as > an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states > have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, > for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, > compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to > pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although > definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are > taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, > although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects > make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they > are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, > they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They > are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this > way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24989 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi, Sarah (and Christine) - Of course, I do not at *all* dismiss the role of accumulations in the case of the mentally deficient person or in other cases. Conditions, all the necessary conditions, must be in place for any event to occur, including stream entry. But what they are in a specific case is usually indiscernible for us, and to assume that for stream entry they must include having had more or less direct contact with Abhidhamma teachings during some lifetime or other strikes me as a BIG presumption. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/5/03 3:07:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard &Christine, > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > You did mention this before and I’d be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I’m also > thinking again of Christine’s question about intelligence and insight. > > Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so often > the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, we > read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower garments > made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was > well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was an > arahant until the visit of the Brahma. > > As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to > 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis > (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta that > he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously > accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was able > to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief > words as I understand. > > Look forward to any comments, > > Metta, > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24990 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/5/03 6:20:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Sarah and All, > > Over the last couple of days, I've been thinking about kamma a lot. > At first, kamma sounds a neat explanation for the puzzling things > that happen to people. But is this just blind faith in > something that can't be proven, anymore than the existence or > otherwise of gods or demons controlling things can't be proven or > disproven. As an explanation of things as they really are, it > seems like something a child might conclude: "this awful thing > happened because I must have been bad and deserve it, even though no- > one can tell me what it was I did". Today, the idea of kamma seems > too pat an explanation. All these stories of far away and long ago > (like Bahiya) sound romantic and have a certain attraction. But > perhaps they are only morality tales, teaching parables, and can't > be accepted as an explanation for the ugliness of real life. > Yesterday, here, a four month old, an eighteen month old, and a five > year old were stabbed to death by their father, an eleven month old > still clings to life. A young injured mother watched most of her > children, plus one baby she was minding, being killed - unable to > defend them. > This is what can happen, out of the blue, to ordinary people. > Naturally one wants to say there is a reason (the kamma they > committed coming home to roost). Because, if there is a reason for > it happening to the little ones, then maybe it won't happen to me ... > or to my children. > > Maybe belief in kamma/vipaka is a security blanket that we cling to, > as it's a little more intellectual-sounding than theism - it keeps > away the fear that maybe chaos really reigns supreme. Kamma doesn't > seem to have a point, there is no verifiable balance sheet, no kamma- > cupboard where it's stored while awaiting consequences - it > doesn't teach any lessons because no-one remembers their alleged past > lives, and justice is not seen to be done. > > Christine > ============================ I suspect that kamma and its effects form an *extraordinarily* complex causal web, and that most popular understandings of it are wildly primitive compared to the reality. One thing I think may be good to keep in mind is that kamma (one's "own" kamma) is but one if several niyama, or cosmic principles active in human affairs. While all sense experience that comes to us is kamma vipaka in the sense that at least *some* previous intention/intentional action constituted conditions for its arising, sometimes that may be the smallest part. When A attacks B, the primary condition for what B experiences is most typically the akusula kamma of A far more than the akusala vipaka of B. If B's experience were entirely or largely due to B's own vipaka, then A would be the innocent vehicle for the working out of B's kamma, a rather perverse notion, as I see it. So called innocent victims, are, I really do believe, innocent for the most part. There is no way for us to sift out how much of what ill comes to us is "kammic compensation" and how much is being the innocent recipient of evil actions of others, but I think that in this area it is reasonably safe to *primarily* rely on common sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24991 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, Andrew - VERY nice. Thank you! With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/5/03 6:27:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Dear RobM, James and Howard, > You wrote: > RobM: In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a > knowledge of Abhidhamma. > James: I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. > Sri Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...Can you see the > tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! Maybe we can thank his > Abhidhamma studies for that. > Howard: I think one doesn't have to look far to spot tones of conceit > in *each* of us. I think that when we are very, very sure about a > matter that we don't truly know first hand - which applies to almost > every opinion on almost everything that almost everyone of has - > conceit is there. We're all filled with opinions, and we all think we > are "right". I'm engaged in that at this very moment! (Of course, > there *are* degrees to things.) > > In the Ariyapariyesana Sutta, Buddha compared our realm to a lotus > pond. We are all at different places, depths and stages in that > pond. It is surely incorrect to hold that the Buddhadhamma is a "one > size fits all" phenomenon. This, I think, is illustrated in the > Mahagosinga Sutta. This sutta relates a conversation in the Gosinga > sala-tree wood between 6 senior and accomplished bhikkhus. They posed > the question "what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate the Gosinga sala- > tree wood?" Not surprisingly, each answered with a description of a > bhikkhu matching their own accomplishments. Ananda described a good > learner. Revata described a good solitary meditator. Anuruddha > described a bhikkhu with the divine eye. Kassapa described > a 'fewness of wishes' forest dweller. Moggallana described a bhikkhu > good at discussing the higher Dhamma. Sariputta described one in > control of his own mind. They then went to the Buddha and told him > everything that had happened and asked him who had spoken well. THE > BUDDHA ANSWERED THAT THEY HAD ALL SPOKEN WELL. Surely he would not > have so answered if you can only attain Nibbana by meditating or by > studying or whatever? > My conclusion: it's not wholesome to get uptight [experience dosa?] > when people claim to be practising the Middle Way in a manner that > does not match your own preferences. I am not stating that anyone in > this thread has actually got uptight in this manner. Indeed, how > would I know ... and that's exactly my point. I'm in the lotus > pond. Don't ask me whether it's the sunny end or the muddy end - > whichever way I answer, there will be some conceit (mana) in my > reply. Better that I focus on where I am at without seeing if it's > higher or lower than the others around me. > Hope that makes sense to you. > Andrew > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24992 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > My conclusion: it's not wholesome to get uptight [experience dosa?] > when people claim to be practising the Middle Way in a manner that > does not match your own preferences. I am not stating that anyone in > this thread has actually got uptight in this manner. Indeed, how > would I know ... and that's exactly my point. I'm in the lotus > pond. Don't ask me whether it's the sunny end or the muddy end - > whichever way I answer, there will be some conceit (mana) in my > reply. Better that I focus on where I am at without seeing if it's > higher or lower than the others around me. > Hope that makes sense to you. Thank you. Well said. I will use these Sutta references next week - I have been invited to give an "Introduction to Abhidhamma" Dhamma talk to a general Buddhist audience and the issue of, "Why not just focus on the Suttas?" is often raised at these types of talks. Metta, Rob M :-) 24993 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: peace, Icaro Dear Icaro, The mating flies flew off the screen together when I touched them and I don't know where they went. The two that were in my cup flew in there on their own and one was definitely drowned. I think the other was still alive when I threw it out, but I didn't do any artificial respiration or anything. For the most part, no Beach Boys, heavy metal or rap. For the rest, ok. Something might be a favorite one time and then I don't like it next time I hear it. Yes, Nichiren is very different and I'm afraid I'm a bit like a fly myself to friends who put their faith there. Still, the chanting doesn't go away and I do like the LS. metta, connie 24994 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: The physical bases. Dear Rob, Nina and others, Thanks for your responses to my question about the physical location of the heart-base. Actually, I had misread the commentary (in CMA) as saying the heart-base was the physical cavity inside the heart. That seemed so specific and strange that I had to ask about it. What it actually says is that the heart-base is the blood inside the cavity in the heart. This is in line with Rob's remarks about ancient Indian beliefs. To me, this is a satisfying answer because it ends speculation on the matter- that's the true wisdom in it. As many of you pointed out, such speculation is more of a hindrance to insight than an aid. Thanks again, Toby 24995 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Sarah, Thanks for your interest in my "bio" and for taking the time to put together references that might be useful to me. It's great to come across so much sincere and intelligent conversation on the Dhamma as there is in this group. People here are very knowledgable. > > It's really great to have your contributions here and thank you very much > for taking the time to give such a detailed and unusual introduction. I > know it can't be easy to describe the experiences you have shared. Thank > you for your efforts to do so. You're welcome. I enjoy sharing the experience of insight meditation, especially when it is about actual transformation. I hope to see some threads develop along these lines in DSG. Toby 24996 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: Issues of Dhamma, no 9, The sixfold Path Dhamma Issues Chapter 9 The sixfold Path Introduction [1]. There are eight factors of the eightfold Path: right view, right thinking, right effort, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right mindfulness and right concentration. These factors are eight sobhana cetasikas which have to be developed together. The factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood are the sobhana cetasikas which are the abstinences, virati-cetasikas. They are abstinence from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. Abstinence from wrong speech is abstinence from lying, slandering, harsh speech and idle, frivolous talk. Abstinence from wrong action is abstinence from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. Abstinence from wrong livelihood is abstinence from wrong speech and wrong action committed for the sake of one¹s livelihood. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, these abstinences arise only one at a time, because a person can only abstain from one kind of evil at a time. There are many degrees of the three abstinences. They can arise without understanding or accompanied by understanding. When they are accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path they have a higher degree of purity, because at that moment there is no notion of self who abstains from evil. As we have seen, the abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere arise only one at a time. However, when lokuttara citta arises, all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara citta and nibbåna is the object of citta and the accompanying cetasikas. The three abstinences fulfil their functions of path-factors in cutting off the conditions for wrong conduct (Atthasåliní, II, Part VIII, Ch 1, 219, 220). When satipaììhåna is developed five path-factors accompany the citta, and, as the occasion arises, there can, in addition, be one of the three abstinences. Thus, when the eightfold Path is mundane, it has five or six factors. Whereas when it is lokuttara, it has all eight factors. When the Path is mundane and it is accompanied, for example, by abstinence of wrong speech, thus by right speech, the five path-factors are the condition for right speech to become more perfect. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² states, that right speech ³perfects itself² at that moment. As is explained in this Issue, the five factors which accompany one of the abstinences perform a function with regard to that particular abstinence. However, only lokuttara magga-citta can eradicate wrong conduct at different stages of enlightenment. ***** Issue of Analysis: Do six factors of the eightfold Path arise together when satipatthåna is being developed? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: six factors of the eightfold Path can arise together when satipatthåna is being developed. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², the ³Dispeller of Delusion², II, Ch 11, Classification of the Path, B. Abhidhamma Division. 2. The ³Såratthappakåsiní², the Commentary to the ³Kindred Sayings², the Commentary to the Mahå-vagga, Book I, Ignorance. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: In the ³Dispeller of Delusion², II, Ch 11, Classification of the Path, B. Abhidhamma Division, the functions of the factors of the fivefold Path have been explained: ²...Then by this fivefold Path, what purpose is taken up? The purpose of explaining (special) functions more clearly. For at the time when he abandons wrong speech and perfects right speech, at that time there are not right action and right livelihood; it is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong speech. Right speech perfects itself through abstention [2]. At the time when he abandons wrong action and perfects right action, at that time there are not right speech and right livelihood. It is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong action. Right action perfects itself through abstention. At the time when he abandons wrong livelihood and perfects right livelihood, at that time there are not right speech and right action. It is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong livelihood. Right livelihood perfects itself through abstention. This is taken as the Œfivefold path¹ in order to show the extra function of these factors that cause action...² The ³Såratthappakåsiní², the Commentary to the ³Kindred Sayings², in the Commentary to the Mahå-vagga, Book I, Ignorance, gives additional explanations: ³As it is also stated in the ŒAbhidhamma¹ (Dhammasangaùi, §89 3 ), it was said, ŒAt that time there is the fivefold Path¹, in order to explain the specific functions of the Path-factors. At the time when he abandons wrong action, right action is perfected, and there are no wrong speech or wrong livelihood. As to the five factors of right view, thinking, effort, mindfulness and concentration, right action is perfected by these five action-causing factors. Because of abstention right action truly perfects itself. The same is explained with regard to right speech and right livelihood. This was said in order to explain the specific functions of the Path-factors. In the case of the Path which is Œworldly¹ (lokiya), there are five Path-factors. Abstention is not definite [3] and therefore the Buddha did not say that there are six factors, but he spoke of five factors.² From these quoted texts it can be concluded that six Path-factors can arise together when satipatthåna is being developed. There are the following reasons: 1. The text explaining the functions of the five factors of the Path and of each of the three abstentions, ³these five action-causing factors abandon wrong speech. Right speech perfects itself through abstention² etc. has the following meaning: the fivefold Path-factors manifest their specific functions, they are the factors that are the condition for abandoning akusala (wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood). With regard to abstention, this is the function of the three virati (abstention) cetasikas, which abstain each in their specific case. When abstention arises in the case of lokiya magga, the Path that is worldly, only one of the three virati cetasikas at a time accompany the other five Path-factors and then the Path is sixfold. But when abstention does not arise, the Path is fivefold. 2. The quoted text which is, ³In the case of the Path which is Œworldly¹ (lokiya), there are five Path-factors. Abstention is not definite and therefore the Buddha did not say that there are six factors, but he spoke of five factors², has the following meaning: when satipatthåna arises, there must be at least five Path- factors which definitely arise. They are: right view, right thinking, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. Sometimes one of the three abstentions, right speech, right action or right livelihood, also arise and in that case the Path is sixfold. When one of the three abstentions is accompanied by the five Path-factors, it is different from abstention without understanding of the characteristics of realities. Abstention accompanies the five Path factors when there is understanding of realities which appear. Then it is realized that it is only a dhamma which abstains, not self. 3. Since the Buddha has explained that all eight factors should be developed, including each of the three abstentions, it can be concluded that sometimes one of the three can accompany the five Path factors, so that, in that case, the Path is sixfold. Thus, it is not said that the abstentions never arise when insight is being developed. However, only when the Path is lokuttara all three abstentions arise together. ***** Footnotes. 1. I wrote the Introduction. 2. The English translation of the P.T.S. by Ven. Nyanamoli, has a negation: ³Also right speech does not perfect through abstention itself². However, three manuscripts (the editions in Roman, Burmese and Singhalese script) do not have this negation, they state: ³Right speech perfects itself through abstention² and so on for the other two abstentions. Moreover, as we shall see, the Commentary to the Mahå-vagga does not have this negation. The text states, ³at that time there are not right action and right livelihood². The reason is that there can only be one kind of abstention at a time. The ³five action causing factors² (in Pali kaaraka: doing, active) are the other five factors of the eightfold Path which accompany the kusala citta that abstains from evil. The text states: ³ it is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong speech. Right speech perfects itself through abstention.² These five factors have each a specific function and they are a condition for abstinence from evil. When right understanding, right mindfulness and the other Path-factors arise, there cannot be wrong action. Moreover, they are the condition for abstinence to become purer, because at such a moment there is no notion of self who abstains. The development of the Path-factors leads to the eradication of wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. 3. Abstention, virati: this includes the three factors which are abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. When the Path is not lokuttara, supermundane, they may arise one at a time, or they may not arise. Their arising is not fixed or certain, because there is not always an opportunity for abstention from wrong speech, wrong action or wrong livelihood. ****** (translated from Thai) Nina. 24997 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, stillness Dear Howard, I quite agree when speaking of the end result. The perfect calm or stillness is being removed from all defilements. Nibbana is also called the cool. Nina. op 04-09-2003 19:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: But there is, as I see it, another sense in which the > ultimate aim *is* stillness, namely that total disinclination towards being > disturbed, that complete absence of dukkha, which is nibbana, 24998 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: FW: [Pali] Pali -aasava, saasava Dear all, on Pali yahoo list we just received this text. I asked permission to forward it. After all our discossions about this subject! Nina. ---------- Van: John Kelly Beantwoord: Pali@yahoogroups.com Datum: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Aan: Pali Onderwerp: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B069] Pali - Every few days - [B069] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 4 ? Further Readings Ex. 3. (Part 4 of 7) Dve'maani, bhikkhave, sukhaani. Monks, there are these two types of happiness. Katamaani dve? What two? Saasavasukha.m ca anaasavasukha~nca. There is the happiness of clinging and the happiness of non-clinging. Imaani kho, bhikkhave, dve sukhaani. Indeed, monks, these are two types of happiness. Etadagga.m, bhikkhave, imesa.m dvinna.m sukhaana.m yadida.m anaasavasukha.m ti. The better, monks, of these two types of happiness is the happiness of non-clinging. 24999 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Icaro, an interesting text. See below. op 04-09-2003 21:01 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > Dhammasangani, fourth book - Atthakathakhandam, > last stanca: > > "1616. Katame dhamma arana? Cattusu bhumisu kusalam, > cattusu bhumisu vipako, tisu bhumisu kiriyabyakatam, > RUPA?CA, nibbana?ca? ime dhamma arana." N: arana should be spelled: ara.na (this is Velthuis, a dot under the n, which makes a lot of difference). It means: far from, away from. The signs coming over on computer as ? also need replacement by Velthuis. It is essential to have thos correct, we may confuse cases. . uu for the long u, aa for the long a. Shall I give you the whole list? I have now completed my funny sign list with the Velthuis equivalents. You know this one: 3/4 is : aa. 1/2 is : .m . Spanish n stays the same in the web text, but we can also write: ~n. I would like to help and encourage Sarah with the funny accents, it is simple. I had them all in the first paras of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, I took from the web. Now I can get any text. Now your text: P.T.S. transl:
Thus, ruupa and nibbaana are the realities removed from objects. I think the word dhamma stands here for object, aaramma.na. This is one of the meanings of dhamma. Object of thought just means: object. Rupa and nibbana cannot take any object. The reason: ruupa does not know anything, it cannot think, feel or remember. Nibbaana is not citta, it cannot experience an object, but, nibbaana itself can be an object, the object of lokuttara citta. Thus, this part of the text makes sense to me. The P.T.S. has these in an Appendix and has not properly translated the whole text. And if you do not give it with the proper accents, the construction is not so clear. Now this is interesting: Ch XI (also towards the end): mahantara duka.m: N: the last one is nibbaana. Nina.